Panorama (Suicide Amongst Soldiers)

[Milky Bar Kid]

I have just watched this and spent a fair bit of time either wiping tears away or getting really blooming angry!!!

I honestly didn't realise there was such a lack of support for our soldiers and war vets. I am appalled. No matter what the rights and wrongs or the who did what when's of war, our Govt are sending these men and women to war on their behalf and the very least they deserve when they return is a little bit of bloody support! They aren't even passing on medical records of suicidal soldiers to civilian medical staff when they get discharged!!!!!!!!!

If you haven't seen it, get I player open and watch.

To any guys and gals on here who are serving or have served in the armed forces, I salute you! Thanks. A million times.

[madnlooney]

although not enough, i think it is getting better although still alot who leave become homeless and downward spiral due to not being able to feel like they can fit in to normal life

[Pete7]

What is supposed to happen is on discharge your medical records are transfered to Smedley Hydro (SH) in Southport (NHS Records place) so when you register with your new civilian doctor they send a request to SH and your records are then sent to your new GP. The problem is soldiers are used to life being organised for them, trips to the Dentist are a parade, fail to turn up and its a one sided interview with the Sergeant Major without coffee :smt018

So the idea of having to register with a GP and a Dentist is put off especially by those who perhaps really need help. Thankfully it really is a minority of cases and a lot of work has been put in over the last 10 years for service personnel including a good resettlement package, advice on housing, jobs, finance etc. The Regiments and Corps also have support organisations along with SSAFA & Royal British Legion to catch those who slip through the net. Some still do and it's not perfect but if someone just disappears when they walk out the gate for the final time it's difficult to know what more can be done for them.

With any large employer (the MOD has 200k service personnel at anyone time and 750k retired in receipt of a service pensions) sadly some peeps will have problems, its not unique to the MOD.

Pete

[Fallout]

I don't know how any infantry can go from tours and shooting people/watching mates die, to normal civy life. Ignoring PTSD for a moment, it'll just put life in perspective. For example, I know a squaddie (through a friend, so not well) who rides about on an R1 without insurance, tax etc. Why? Because really, when you've seen your mates get blown up and had people trying to kill you for months on end, who gives a feck about society's stupid red tape? Getting arrested? Big deal.

It really doesn't surprise me a lot of them have problems fitting into mundane life after combat.

[Milky Bar Kid]

Pete, the thing that gets me is that the MOD won't assist vets after service if their PTSD wasn't diagnosed inservice. But sometimes PTSD doesn't rear it's ugly head until they are discharged.

As for the fact they are a large employer and bound to have some with problems, that doesn't wash with me I'm afraid. At the end of the day, these guys and gals are putting themselves in the firing line for our country and therefore, our govt should be doing its utmost to ensure they are getting at least the offer of any and ALL assistance they might need. I realise there will always be some who won't take the help and there's nothing anyone can do in those circumstances.

Fallout, yeh, this is part of then problem. I don't think those of us who haven't witnessed war can fully understand it but life across here must seem trivial at times compared to the life and death situation in Afghan or Iraq. Surely there should be some sort of rehab for guys coming home and leaving the military instead of just 'don't let the door hit you On the way out...'

[Fallout]

My uncle has done it all in the military. I won't go into details, but basically he couldn't hack normal life. He did loads of jobs after like security, police, armed police, body guard etc. and none of them could fill that void. He is the bizarre sort that craves the action rather than suffers PTSD from it though. All the things he did meant he just couldn't do a mundane job afterwards and derive satisfaction from the sort of things we'd find fun or a rush. He's over 60 now and still in other countries shooting at people. I suspect if he hadn't found those opportunities he would be in prison for something or other.

[Pete7]

Pete, the thing that gets me is that the MOD won't assist vets after service if their PTSD wasn't diagnosed inservice. But sometimes PTSD doesn't rear it's ugly head until they are discharged. '

Agreed, but were do you draw the line? I think you will find its all about money and polictics between Gov departments at ministerial level and who pays for what. The loss of our dedicated military hospitals hasn't helped, Wroughton nr Swindon, Woolwich, Haslar to name just a few, but the services are far smaller than they were 30 years ago. It does make sense to use existing NHS facilities and develop them. Interestingly service nurses are now deployed in civilian hospitals.

I have Crohns which developed whilst I was serving (22 years). Now the occasional treatment is via the NHS. 10 years after I finished in the Army why should they still be responsible for me and wouldn't this just duplicate what the NHS is supposed to provide and for me, does.

Annual turnover in the Army is probably a ball park figure of 5000 a year. As I said earlier the number of people who fall through the gap is thankfully very small. It's not perfect, but for the price meets the needs of the vast majority.

Pete

[Milky Bar Kid]

When people, and a high number at that, are killing themselves as a result of their service, then I think it really is something that needs to be looked at.

Was your Crohns a direct result of serving in the armed forces? I don't know much about Crohns so that's a genuine question. I think that if its a conditions that's a direct result of service, then the MOD should help. Do they turn their backs on the soldiers who have limbs blown off?? I don't know. They bloody well shouldn't if they do. But PTSD is a very debilitating illness. Thankfully, if it is treated properly then people recover. That's where it's falling down at the moment.

[granty92]

just watched this on my lunch break and i think they are getting nowhere near enough help as needed, its disgusting in all honesty and quite ashamed, these people are clearly hurt by what they've done and seen and once the army see them fit they just let them go, and not giving the records is awful, so many unnecessary deaths because the info thats needed isn't being passed on

[Pete7]

Was your Crohns a direct result of serving in the armed forces? I don't know much about Crohns so that's a genuine question.

Cause unknown, lots of theories but nothing confirmed last time I looked. We used to go diving, swimming and windsurfing in Chichester harbour until we found the sewage works just up the channel which during heavy rain let all untreated sewage run straight into the harbour. My dive buddy got Colitis and I caught Crohns, both similar. They rushed me into the Royal at Winchester on Christmas Eve 1999. Theatre staff had no ops so planned a party for the afternoon. They spent 4.5 hrs cutting me open and chopping 14 inches out instead. Saved my life from a massive internal infection and for that I am always very grateful. Have the odd incident now and then and need to know were the nearest loo is, oh and can't drink a bottle of Port anymore. Did used to like Regimental Dinners, passing the Port decanter and cigars, a lifestyle I could have got quite used to.

I quite accept the Army isn't perfect, but on balance it gave me and thousands of others a clean break from what ever back ground they came from, it really didn't matter. All treated equally, paid well many with a trade. In return I did 3 x 2 yr tour in Northern Ireland. Greenham Common early 1980s (on the inside of the fence) having body fluids thrown at me and a few other rough bits. On the upside I have lived in Europe, Asia and the Carib, skiing, diving and sailing, I can't complain.

Pete

[TheRuffellator]

Did used to like Regimental Dinners, passing the Port decanter and cigars

Do I sense a rupert? ;)

I think the its' definetly an issue that needs to be sqaured away, but it leads onto a whole lot of other issues with the military too. As someone said above it all comes down to the politics of it and budget cuts... although thats hardly an excuse in my eyes.

[Pete7]

Do I sense a rupert? ;)

Nope, they didn't call me "Sir" because I worked for a living. Joined as a soldier and a lot of years later Geoff Hoon (Sec of State) signed my Warrant. Awficers have the Queen sign their Warrants.

Pete

[Owenski]

I saw it and didn't like much of what I saw.

The guy who had set up his own charity/support network put it in perspective with what he said regarding them been a bad insurance company. Only worried about the stats and fiddling them how they see fit, from what I gathered our system needs a serious reform.

[Bluepete]

I'd quite happily spend a bit more of my tax on soldiers aftercare. I've come across quite a few wild ones who've been out of service.

These guys and dolls have a special place in the heart of our country, why not a special aftercare service too?

Pete

[Owenski]

I'd quite happily spend a bit more of my tax on soldiers aftercare. I've come across quite a few wild ones who've been out of service.

These guys and dolls have a special place in the heart of our country, why not a special aftercare service too?

Pete

+1 I do hate that they put their lives on the line in their chosen career (which is fair enough, it was after all their choice) but to be treated like a consumable afterwards is heart breaking.
That care facility which was mentioned should be a reality already let alone just a proposal. Get it buolt, feck we've enough old schools and hospitals knocking about which could easily be converted. What ever gov puts that in their BUMPH gets my vote.

[Bibio]

why should we! they joined up knowing full well what they were getting themselves into. it's a career decision just like everyone else after all its not like they were conscripted. i dont see why the public should have to foot the bill once they have served their term.

you could say the same for doctors, nurses, ambulance, police, firemen etc.etc as they see some horrific and disturbing things during their career.

if your not prepared to kill other people, get brainwashed and instatusalised then dont join the forces, simples. if you are prepared to do all of that then also be prepared for the consequences afterwords.

[Milky Bar Kid]

I actually cannot respond to that comment Lance.

Why should we?!!

No no. It's fine. Don't worry. You have been fighting for Queen and country and are suicidal?! Oh well, that was your own career choice. Pss off to the back of the queue whilst we rehabilitate heroin addicts and alcoholics who have never worked a day in theirs lives and stolen from all and sundry to feed their habits.

[Bibio]

no they have fought for the government. nothing to do with queen and country. the only time they fight for the queen is during a war as to go to war the prime minister needs to ask permission from the queen. so what they have been doing is glorified peace keeping duty's, weapons demonstrations and general foot stomping for the Government and nothing to do with protection for our country.

don't even go there about addicts.

it was their decision to join up, no one twisted their arm. yes i feel sorry for ex servicemen and women being used an abused by the government. but why should they receive special treatment once back on civvy street and just another member of joe public. yes if they need help adjusting or have mental problems they should get help.. the same help as everyone else.

if you don't want to be shot at or have to kill people then don't join the forces. if you do then face the consequences.

maybe if they showed video footage of what they will be doing on active duty e.g. watching people brains being splattered or women and children being blown up and their body parts lying about all over the place before they sign the dotted line then a lot less people would join the forces and those that do would have the mental aptitude to cope with the stresses of the job in the first place.

[Milky Bar Kid]

PTSD is an illness. They can't know from watching a video if they are going to get it in real life.

I've been shown countless pictures of fatal injuries from suicides/rtcs/murders etc and I can assure you, it doesn't even come close to the real thing.

I have dealt with horrific things. So far no PTSD. But I don't know that when I go back to work on Tuesday that I won't be involved in something which does result in me getting PTSD. But I suppose, in your opinion it was my career choice so I'd need to suck it up.

Many careers such as armed forces and my line of work are vocations. There is no way I'd do what I do if it was about the money. Yes I need a wage to live off but I could easily get another, almost unskilled job, for similar if not better pay.

I'm not saying they need their hands held when they get back. But there needs to be adequate treatment in place. At the end of the day, the PTSD suffering vets who don't get treatment and end up drinking and fighting and in and out of jail will cost far more money to deal with than getting them the right help initially.

[BanannaMan]

it was their decision to join up, no one twisted their arm. yes i feel sorry for ex servicemen and women being used an abused by the government. but why should they receive special treatment once back on civvy street and just another member of joe public. yes if they need help adjusting or have mental problems they should get help.. the same help as everyone else.






So, they should spend 20 years of their life moving from base to base,
being ready to be deployed at a moments notice,
spend holidays away from loved ones,
years away, with a few visits, if there is a war,
face the death and destruction,
be willing to fight and die so that you can continue to live in the free world,
and yet only be entitled to the same benefits as everyone else?
Now that hardly seems fair.

And should you eliminate too much incentive to join the services you'll soon be back to National Service.

As for not getting PTSD,

No matter how much training, no one knows how they or anyone else will react in a combat situtation until it really happens.
Let alone how it may affect them years later psycologiclly.
If there were a way to tell or predict PTSD, it would be in use by the government now.

[kaivalagi]

Really sad state of affairs. If there was just a little more after care to treat PTSD cases, that panorama program wouldn't have aired. By not addressing PTSD properly the government/MOD are disgracing themselves yet again.

[Owenski]

but why should they receive special treatment once back on civvy street and just another member of joe public. yes if they need help adjusting or have mental problems they should get help.. the same help as everyone else.

You seriously need to watch that show dude!

A large point of it was that they DO get the help that joe public gets but considering the heightened requirements of the service personnel the NHS just isn't able to help. The Joe Public care level of "did mummy not love you, did daddy touch you?" isn't equipped to deal with "I saw my best friends body reduced to chicken fillet sized pieces just feet from me"

You're correct that they choose to join up and they (should) accept the risks. I'm pretty sure they'll be assured that should they need it then adequate care will be provided. Its not until they do need it that they find them selves on their own. Again which was the point of the show.