View Full Version : Pointy suspension & brake upgrades?
Ok so I posted a little while back about my rear suspension needing replacing, I have to pm someone about a stock shock to ride me over, but thanks to being too keen with the right wrist I am staring down the barrel of some intense insurance hikes, which means I doubt I can get a new bike for a while. So, basically I want to make the sv better and mine again (basically standard) so it isn't so horrible a wait.
I appreciate that these questions have been asked before but to save me searching lots of different threads I thought I would see if I can get what I want in one place!
Things I want to change in time are:
Front end.
It's a 2010 L0, I have seen various posts about gsxr front ends and wondered what model/year I need to look out for and what extra things I need to be wary of, such as bits that need re-routing etc.
My understanding is that it's the forks, wheel and brakes?
Back end,
Shock, lots of people kindly suggested a zx10r shock for the rear, 04-06?? Any other suggestions and year ranges? I don't want to cut or modify anything so the best option that allows me to leave it as standard is what in after. My local dealer said they can get a hagon (?) one for £265ish but never heard of them and that is a bit steep but as a fall back option it's a known variable.
Brake, I know nobody ever uses it but I do, a lot, mainly in slow traffic to/from work. Any ideas what kind of upgrade I can do here?
Middle,
After a decent horn, so far the heat hasn't caused it to stop working like it did on my k9, but just in case it's something I have been meaning to sort. Any suggestions on a good one that is easy to swap?
Think that is about it. It will be a long process but I hope to get a list of items and work out costs then beg borrow and steal the funds for them!
Thanks in advance peeps!
MJC-DEV
09-09-13, 05:04 PM
Putting a GSXR front end on won't help with your insurance when you declare that level of mods! Debrix emulators are almost as good and keep stock appearance.
Brakes - braided hose (HEL or Goodridge etc) with GG pads will send you over the bars (almost).
Horn - stebel Nautilus or clone is excellent if you don't mind adding a relay for the extra current.
thanks to being too keen with the right wrist I am staring down the barrel of some intense insurance hikes
Most of the mods you mention will only serve to increase your insurance premium further, Unless you plan not to declare them which could leave you not covered at all....:confused:
EDIT: Beaten to it
Yeah will declare it all, but hoping that wont be as bad as getting a nice shiny new Daytona 675 will be!
Cheers, got braided lines so you reckon sticking with the standard front end and brakes with the new pads will be ok?
Will look in to the emulators!
my advice for what it's worth.
front. get springs to suit your weight and emulators or go the full hog and get cartridge drop ins.
brakes. fine if serviced properly and with the better front end they surprise surprise work better. i always laugh my titz off with their reaction when i service people brakes.
rear. with the money you save on not doing a GSXR front conversion i would go for a Nitron Sport, set up for you and your bike. while everyone says that the ZX, etc.etc work they are nowhere near the quality/feel of a good shock.
yorkie_chris
10-09-13, 07:56 AM
For the money of cartridges you could have done the GSXR stuff!
Most of the mods you mention will only serve to increase your insurance premium further, Unless you plan not to declare them which could leave you not covered at all....:confused:
EDIT: Beaten to it
Wrong on both counts.
Wrong on both counts.
Really? How's that YC?
I know for a fact that declaring the mods on my SV increased my premium, namely suspension, brakes, exhaust etc.
yorkie_chris
10-09-13, 01:14 PM
Most of the mods you mention will only serve to increase your insurance premium further, Unless you plan not to declare them which could leave you not covered at all....:confused:
EDIT: Beaten to it
Really? How's that YC?
I know for a fact that declaring the mods on my SV increased my premium, namely suspension, brakes, exhaust etc.
They will not "only" increase premiums, they'll also make it handle and stop a sight better too :)
The not covered at all bit is highly debatable.
I found it made next to no difference to premiums, just be "careful" about how you word it. "ere mate I smashed it up so I bodged on some front end I found on ebay like" isn't the way to go ;)
They will not "only" increase premiums, they'll also make it handle and stop a sight better too :)
The not covered at all bit is highly debatable.
I found it made next to no difference to premiums, just be "careful" about how you word it. "ere mate I smashed it up so I bodged on some front end I found on ebay like" isn't the way to go ;)
Haha ok ok yes, handling and stoping will change too ;)
As far as being carful how you word it to your insurance company, I'd say phone them as opposed to doing your quote online. I found when declaring mods online you just tick boxes as to which area of the bike you've modified without being able to add detail/specifics.
Agree that the "not declaring mods leaves you without cover" is debatable but there's no doubt it will complicate any potential claim if the company find anything on the bike which isn't specified on the policy. It only gives them room to wriggle out of paying up either the full amount or a reduced amount given half a chance.
Will have a look at some of the alternatives to the front end swap.
And re the disclosures, well aware of what I need to do on that front, my best mate was a fraud investigator in motor insurance for years before I started working with him investigating fraud in medical insurance.
The invalidating the policy but will be getting easier for insurance companies thanks to new legislation which passed last year, so we all need to be a lot more careful about disclosing anything for all types of insurance!
hardhat_harry
10-09-13, 04:28 PM
More insurers are only bothered about performance enhancements
My GSXR Front End and rear shock are all declared and my premium didn't change at all.
Btw what legislation??
Hmmm, depends on insurer what they consider performance I guess.
It's the Consumer Insurance (Disclosures and Representations) Act 2012.
It basically means people have to be a lot clearer with disclosing material facts and things like, oh it slipped my mind, etc have less chance of working. You have to make an effort to declare things etc at the opportunity to do so. Eg if asked if you have any mods you have to tell them.
On the flip side insurers have to be a lot clearer with the questions. Using the prev eg if they did not ask you if you have any mods, you could argue on technical grounds that they didn't ask. Or more specifically, if they ask if you have any performance mods and you did not declare the nice shiny end can, you can argue you were in the right as it is not a performance mod.
I have read case studies where the FOS have ruled in favour of insurers following the implementation of this act that previously the insurer may have lost.
There is a bit more to it than that but essentially the rules re non-disclosure are getting tighter, so answer any questions clearly and accurately.
''it was recommended that i have my bike set up for my weight which included the rear shock and front springs being upgraded''
my insurer was only interested in replacing aftermarket for OEM if the event ever come that i had to make a claim. even though the aftermarket stuff is cheaper they will value my bike as though it was standard and give book price less my excess at £200 at time of claim.
this suits me just dandy as my bike and goodies are fully paid for. i have only claimed on insurance once in the past 20+ years and that was for my last bike being stolen.
Having modded in GSXR K8 front end (look up the conversion info on SV Rider) and now owning a 2013 675, I can tell you that a sorted SV is one of the sweetest handling bikes you can get for anything up to 8 grand. There's very little difference in the performance of a good GSXR front end and a stock Daytona front end.
With the right pads, the radial calipers give you phenomenal stopping power. You just won't get this with the stock front end + cartridges. The tricky part is not the cost of a Gixxer front end, its selling the stock front end to re-coup costs. It can take a long time if selling for a reasonable price.
The rear is a different animal and I agree with Bibio. Getting a custom made unit may be worth the money (Hagon is one of many options) but a stock GSXR or a Kwal ZX shock suited to your weight range is not that bad, certainly not a "night and day" difference in my opinion.
But the recommendations above come with caveats. Forks and shocks in less than good condition are not worth the hassle or cost. So get quality items (sometimes hit and miss on ebay). Then set the bloody thing up properly.
When the hard work is all done you will smile with the benefits. The front end conversion was a very useful exercise for all sorts of reasons but I now have a bike which is far more capable than its re-sale value suggests.
Nobbylad
10-09-13, 06:51 PM
Suspension and brake 'upgrades' haven't resulted in any increased premiums for me.
GSXR750 front end
Penske triple clicker shock
yorkie_chris
10-09-13, 08:05 PM
There is a bit more to it than that but essentially the rules re non-disclosure are getting tighter, so answer any questions clearly and accurately.
I've never really given much of a stuff about theft/full comp cover as I've never seen the point. The next several years of being anally raped would be far higher value than a theft claim for any of my sack of crap vehicles!
For the 3rd party bit well that's the only bit I'm really interested in and I don't see this has affected that.
for me the FC and TPFT is about £20 difference so i go FC. if i bin my bike i fix my bike off my own back unless its a total write off.
Hmmm, depends on insurer what they consider performance I guess.
It's the Consumer Insurance (Disclosures and Representations) Act 2012.
It basically means people have to be a lot clearer with disclosing material facts and things like, oh it slipped my mind, etc have less chance of working. You have to make an effort to declare things etc at the opportunity to do so. Eg if asked if you have any mods you have to tell them.
On the flip side insurers have to be a lot clearer with the questions. Using the prev eg if they did not ask you if you have any mods, you could argue on technical grounds that they didn't ask. Or more specifically, if they ask if you have any performance mods and you did not declare the nice shiny end can, you can argue you were in the right as it is not a performance mod.
I have read case studies where the FOS have ruled in favour of insurers following the implementation of this act that previously the insurer may have lost.
There is a bit more to it than that but essentially the rules re non-disclosure are getting tighter, so answer any questions clearly and accurately.
This is actually almost completely wrong.
The original duty of disclosure came from the Marine Insurance Act (1906) which imposed a duty for a consumer to disclose anything that may reasonably be said to influence the decision of a prudent insurer in insuring a risk. Non-disclosure of any kind would almost always result in an insurer avoiding the policy from inception (i.e., cancelling it but returning premiums) if it could be shown that the information not disclosed would influence an underwriting decision. The problem with this is that the average consumer does not understand what is and isn't a material fact when it comes to underwriting risk, and as a result, claims were repudiated and policies avoided for not disclosing things that were never considered by the consumer. The FOS improved this situation immensely with its attitude towards fairness to consumers, and it was from this that the review that led to the CIA(2012).
The CIA(2012) replaces the duty of disclosure with the need to take "reasonable care" to answer "fully and accurately" the questions that an insurer asks.
A good example of this is undisclosed convictions; prior to the CIA(2012), a consumer who was never asked about a conviction and didn't volunteer the information was held accountable by having the policy avoided, or having to pay an increased premium/excess before any claim would be paid out if it could be shown that the risk would be insured but with different terms.
Following the CIA(2012), the consumer only has to take reasonable care to answer accurately the questions asked of them. They no longer have any duty to disclose anything unless they are asked directly and clearly for the information.
As such, the rules around non-disclosure are tighter - but only for insurers. Consumers have gained massively from the CIA(2012), and I'm skeptical about the case-studies mentioned, unless they're very unusual examples which would almost certainly revolve around fraudulent non-disclosure. The reason for this is that it's virtually impossible to show that a consumer has not taken reasonable care without deliberately failing to mention something, and any situation in which it can be shown would also fall foul of the original non-disclosure laws, hence the consumer is no worse off.
What does this mean for modifications?
Previously if you'd bought a bike advertised as 500cc with all documentation listing it as 500cc, you insured it as such, crashed it, then found out it had been bored out and was actually 600cc, the insurer could in theory avoid the policy from inception (although the FOS would never let them...but that's another story). Following the CIA(2012), you can now state that you took all reasonable care in answering all the questions asked of you, and to the best of your knowledge the engine was 500cc (backed up with the adverts/paperwork etc)., and the insurer has no way of penalizing you for it. Similarly, if you bought a bike that had modified suspension/brakes and you were unaware that they were modded, you can't be penalized.
However, if you were aware, or if you modified the bike yourself, then it very much depends on what the insurer asks. If they ask for any modifications and you tell them, then great. If they don't ask and you don't tell them, then great. If they ask and you don't tell them, you'll have the policy avoided, as there's no way that you could "reasonably" state that you forgot about modifying the bike yourself.
As a final point, the act only came into force April 1st this year, so only people who've had renewals since then will have seen any change so far - anyone with an upcoming renewal or setting up a new policy is likely to have to spend far longer talking to the insurer as sales scripts will be increasing in length to break down questions to be much clearer and to gather more information.
Nobbylad
10-09-13, 09:12 PM
As a final point, the act only came into force April 1st this year, so only people who've had renewals since then will have seen any change so far - anyone with an upcoming renewal or setting up a new policy is likely to have to spend far longer talking to the insurer as sales scripts will be increasing in length to break down questions to be much clearer and to gather more information.
Actually, my renewal (July) was quite straightforward. Few tick boxes on the online form, suspension upgrades, brake upgrades and the policy was complete. I even checked the price with no mods and it came out the same.
Actually, my renewal (July) was quite straightforward. Few tick boxes on the online form, suspension upgrades, brake upgrades and the policy was complete. I even checked the price with no mods and it came out the same.
Online renewal - you're already answering the questions yourself anyway ;)
The greatest impact is going to be on new business quotes done over the phone. For example, when setting up a new household policy, you're no longer able to ask the question, "Has the property ever suffered from subsidence, ground heave or landslip, or is it located in an area prone to flooding?". This now has to be done as four separate questions - otherwise the consumer is able to (rightly) state that they took reasonable care to answer the question, but asking for four separate things at once was confusing.
In general motor insurance probably isn't going to be all that affected by it anyway, as most insurers generate quotes electronically and the software that they use will prompt questions initially and then flag up questions unanswered before providing a quote.
Hijack over!
Thanks for clarifying. The examples were mainly involving life insurance products and where the reasonable effort bit is a bit harder to prove. As you say if asked the questions you have to answer carefully and clearly. If not asked the question or the question is unclear you can argue technical grounds.
In relation to what may or may not affect my insurance I will give them a call and ask!
Anyway, all this insurance ball locks aside, best options for upgrades?
The emulators seem like quite a lot of work that I can't do and doubt I can source locally for a reasonable price. What are these cartridge things that were mentioned? Is that a quick easy job?
Will have a look at hagon and nitron rear shocks, the rear is my priority as I think my tail is slowly collapsing!
Will also see about getting my front brakes completely striped and serviced to help improve that bit in the mean time.
if your serious about upgrading the best thing to do is start by telling us what you weigh in your birthday suit, the kind of riding you do and on what type of roads.
if your rear shock is on it's last legs then get that sorted first. i would also get the linkage bearings checked out as if the shock has been bottoming out a lot it will impact on the bearings.
speak to YC about doing the necessary with your damper rods and then order up a set of emulators direct.
agent wayward
11-09-13, 03:33 PM
Excuse the newbie, but my 06 Pointy has standard front end and brakes. It stops and handles perfectly fine. If you need to stop any harder then you aren't looking far enough ahead. If you need it to handle better, i.e. you can ride it to it's limit on the public road, then you are Cal Crutchlow and I hereby hand you my **** on a plate.
:)
yorkie_chris
11-09-13, 03:38 PM
Excuse the newbie, but my 06 Pointy has standard front end and brakes. It stops and handles perfectly fine. If you need to stop any harder then you aren't looking far enough ahead. If you need it to handle better, i.e. you can ride it to it's limit on the public road, then you are Cal Crutchlow and I hereby hand you my **** on a plate.
:)
Ever ridden one that's set up properly?
It's not about riding it to the limits,* it's about making the most of it. If you're John Mcguinness it makes a massive difference.
If you're not, it makes an even bigger difference because it inspires confidence.
*although the comparison of stock and well modified on a bumpy road is striking. Try the same thing on a stocker that I could do with mine comfortably and you'd probably die.
Excuse the newbie, but my 06 Pointy has standard front end and brakes. It stops and handles perfectly fine. If you need to stop any harder then you aren't looking far enough ahead. If you need it to handle better, i.e. you can ride it to it's limit on the public road, then you are Cal Crutchlow and I hereby hand you my **** on a plate.
:)
Agree that well serviced/maintained brakes are up to the job for most (on the road) but the SV suspension is sprung for your average 9 stone Jap. Even if you're not pushing hard surely you've noticed the front end dive under braking?
I (well, YC) installed linear springs suited to my weight along with emulators and the improvements were dramatic.
aesmith
11-09-13, 03:44 PM
Excuse the newbie, but my 06 Pointy has standard front end and brakes. It stops and handles perfectly fine.
Don't you find the front dives alarmingly on the brakes, but still jolts on the bumps? That's what mine does, and although I wouldn't class it as "bad" then I definitely think that mine would be a better bike if the forks were improved a little. I don't find any shortage of braking power.
By the way the nearest I have to compare is with an older generation CBR600, by no means a top end race rep. The SV brakes are better but the forks are worse.
if your serious about upgrading the best thing to do is start by telling us what you weigh in your birthday suit, the kind of riding you do and on what type of roads.
if your rear shock is on it's last legs then get that sorted first. i would also get the linkage bearings checked out as if the shock has been bottoming out a lot it will impact on the bearings.
speak to YC about doing the necessary with your damper rods and then order up a set of emulators direct.
Cheers Bibio,
It's been a while since I have ventured near a set of scales but I would say around the 16 stone mark maybe a bit more.
At present my priority is sorting the rear out before the shock actually collapses, it's currently just very compressed.
Oh missed something, I would say the majority is commuting to work, about 10 miles each way in an urban environment on less that well maintained roads. I do however like to go out on a weekend jaunt along some nice twisties etc
The front end will be a work in progress once I have the back done, will get the brakes done first and look at options for the forks, will keep YC in mind but if his name is a true indication of location as opposed to a serious fondness of chocolate then that may not be an option.
And to answer the "newbie" question, I will go with the other responses and say as a bat fastard the stock stuff works but isn't comfortable and confidence inspiring!
:)
Edit: also it's nice to have a bike that is "your own"!!
i would say get your rear sorted pronto or its going to be a bigger bill than just a shock.
i would not leave it to long to get the front sorted as it will upset the balance of the bike, yes the rear will be nice and track well but the front will feel a loooot worse and act like a pogo stick even more.
if it were a choice between pin sharp brakes or decent springs and fresh oil i would be going with the springs and oil unless your brakes are completely burgred that is. having pin sharp brakes on a useless front end is no good as again it will show up the shortfalls even more.
i know i keep saying this but the SV is a truly stunning bike when sorted out properly. but properly costs money.
Thanks for the info Bibio, at the moment my aim to to get hold of a standard rear to stop the issues progressing, then work on the upgrades.
While I'm at it I might get the fork oil changed, on that, will get heavier oil with the standard spring be beneficial or am I better of just going with standard oil for now?
Ta!
agent wayward
11-09-13, 04:19 PM
:)
Just for clarification, I do not and never have owned a standard bike. All of my bikes are modified, mostly because I enjoy doing it.
However, my point remains, a standard pointy SV needs no modification to be ridden on UK roads. If you're running out of bike for the road, then you are a legend and I will bow down before you. ;)
Spend your money by all means, I do, but I don't kid myself either.
I once spent many thousands on a Ducati Multistrada, a fine handling bike out of the box, to make it perfect. It was superb, but it didn't actually need any of it.
Yeah the front dives a bit. And?
agent wayward
11-09-13, 04:23 PM
* Try the same thing on a stocker that I could do with mine comfortably and you'd probably die.
Just noticed this.
Thank you, first time I've laughed today. :D
Don't you just love the pub talk on forums? My Dad's bigger than your Dad too. :)
yorkie_chris
11-09-13, 04:25 PM
will keep YC in mind but if his name is a true indication of location as opposed to a serious fondness of chocolate then that may not be an option.
errr both :mrgreen:
However, my point remains, a standard pointy SV needs no modification to be ridden on UK roads. If you're running out of bike for the road, then you are a legend and I will bow down before you. ;)
i think you had better bow down before me. i have a fully tricked out sorted SV and i can take it to the limits on single track roads never mind A roads. i have even come to the shortfalls of the internals of the standard GSXR 600 k4 forks that are fitted and so doing have just spent a considerable amount of £ to sort them out but this will be an ongoing thing till i get the shim stack right for my riding style.
now when i say single track roads i'm on about the kind you find in Scotland that are more potholes than tarmac.
could i ride like i do with a standard SV.. ermm no and i would be dead if i tried.
each to their own and all that.
agent wayward
11-09-13, 04:33 PM
i have a fully tricked out sorted SV and i can take it to the limits on single track roads never mind A roads.
I am kneeling before you in the shadow of your awesomeness. :)
:notworthy:
yorkie_chris
11-09-13, 04:36 PM
Just noticed this.
Thank you, first time I've laughed today. :D
Don't you just love the pub talk on forums? My Dad's bigger than your Dad too. :)
Must have been a pretty slow day :-P
The point may be exaggerated but it stands, go round a proper corner with some proper bumps and bits of dead sheep on it on stock suspension versus proper suspension and the difference is night and day. Bouncing sliding tyre ripping terror... or the exact same pace, comfortably.
It's not about running out of bike for the road, it's about running out of talent for the bike!
:)
Just for clarification, I do not and never have owned a standard bike. All of my bikes are modified, mostly because I enjoy doing it.
However, my point remains, a standard pointy SV needs no modification to be ridden on UK roads. If you're running out of bike for the road, then you are a legend and I will bow down before you. ;)
Spend your money by all means, I do, but I don't kid myself either.
I once spent many thousands on a Ducati Multistrada, a fine handling bike out of the box, to make it perfect. It was superb, but it didn't actually need any of it.
Yeah the front dives a bit. And?
So so inaccurate. The weight of the rider has an awful lot to do with how the standard set-up feels. Then riding style etc comes in. For a heavier rider of 14 stone + the front end dive is magnified. The brakes are good no doubt but as has been said, with sh!t suspension it will exacerbate dive.
Then consider riding all year round. In the wet and the frost the front instability under breaking makes things worse in these conditions.
Then look at the condition of the suspension and brakes. The front forks can get pitted, brakes corroded, fork oil unchanged. All have an impact on performance, especially if you buy used. Of course, best practice is to clean regularly, maintain & service properly but the fundamental issues will remain.
So to improve a budget bike with good handling is far more beneficial to improving the likes of a Strada.
I am kneeling before you in the shadow of your awesomeness. :)
:notworthy:
well since your down there how about a BJ :smt060 :smt081
agent wayward
11-09-13, 04:43 PM
it's about running out of talent for the bike!
Precisely. That was my point. :)
Most mortals will run out of talent way before a stock pointy 650.
I think it might be an idea to move on from this before egos get to a really stupid level. :D
agent wayward
11-09-13, 04:44 PM
well since your down there how about a BJ :smt060 :smt081
Nobody is that good. ;)
Nobody is that good. ;)
worth a try ;)
yorkie_chris
11-09-13, 05:14 PM
Precisely. That was my point. :)
Most mortals will run out of talent way before a stock pointy 650.
I think it might be an idea to move on from this before egos get to a really stupid level. :D
That's the point of p*ssing about with suspension, to stretch the talent out further.
phil24_7
11-09-13, 06:59 PM
They will not "only" increase premiums, they'll also make it handle and stop a sight better too :)
The not covered at all bit is highly debatable.
I found it made next to no difference to premiums, just be "careful" about how you word it. "ere mate I smashed it up so I bodged on some front end I found on ebay like" isn't the way to go ;)
I am with a an insurance company that don't care about mods but they will only put back to standard in the event of an accident.
Mine is worded as standard GSXR suspension, they list it as aftermarket suspension!
They were the second or third cheapest quote I could get but the others wouldn't insure the bike with suspension mods!
Regards
I am with a an insurance company that don't care about mods but they will only put back to standard in the event of an accident.
Mine is worded as standard GSXR suspension, they list it as aftermarket suspension!
They were the second or third cheapest quote I could get but the others wouldn't insure the bike with suspension mods!
Regards
Who is that Phil? I need to put mine on 3rd pf&t.
Nobbylad
11-09-13, 09:42 PM
Try Wicked Quotes they were seriously cheap even with all my mods declared.
I am with a an insurance company that don't care about mods but they will only put back to standard in the event of an accident.
My reason for declaring mods was so that if I threw the bike down the road I wouldn't be out of pocket. Going with a company like the above would IMO be a false economy. I can't see the point in trying to save a few quid on my premium at the risk of losing potentially hundreds or even thousands of pounds in the event of a claim.
You wouldn't insure a standard bike with a company who were offering cheap cover in exchange for paying out a fraction of its worth and risk ending up out of pocket so why do it with a modified bike? Surely it's about protecting your investment?
even declaring the mods they will still give you book value. a new OEM shock for the SV will set you back £400+ a new OEM front end will set you back £1000+ without yokes or plastics. if the bike is that severe they will write it off and make you an offer. you could haggle but it's not going to get you very far.
the only time that goodies come into play is when you make a no fault claim (good luck on that one) and demand the bike be put back to how it was before the accident. but that comes out of the 3rd parties insurance.
Equity Red Star do a modified motorbike policy which allows you to list all the mods you want. Carole Nash handled my renewal fairly poorly this year, with them deciding that previously "undeclared mods" that they were aware of had to be listed, and as a result offered me some bonkers policies.
However, the ERS one came out at £133 TPFT with a £300 excess. For the record, they eventually spoke to the insurers who said that a hagon shock and aftermarket slip-ons don't have to be listed and my instance actually cost me £108 TPFT with a £250 excess. If I had a bike that was actually modified, I definitely wouldn't mind paying an additional £25 and £50 excess to ensure that claims went through more smoothly.
Might be worth giving them a try for heavily modified bikes. However, ERS have incredibly restrictive underwriting criteria, including refusing point-blank to insure about four major cities in the UK or anybody under 25 (or at least for car insurance; I don't deal with them for motorbike insurance in a work capacity).
phil24_7
12-09-13, 09:18 PM
My reason for declaring mods was so that if I threw the bike down the road I wouldn't be out of pocket. Going with a company like the above would IMO be a false economy. I can't see the point in trying to save a few quid on my premium at the risk of losing potentially hundreds or even thousands of pounds in the event of a claim.
You wouldn't insure a standard bike with a company who were offering cheap cover in exchange for paying out a fraction of its worth and risk ending up out of pocket so why do it with a modified bike? Surely it's about protecting your investment?
The difference between a new gsxr front end and a new sv650 front end, a standard isn't massive and my local dealer would happily allow me to pay the difference so I don't see the problem. A standard exhaust is actually more expensive than an after market one, so again, no problem!
Precisely. That was my point. :)
Most mortals will run out of talent way before a stock pointy 650.
I think it might be an idea to move on from this before egos get to a really stupid level. :D
You couldn't really be more wrong. Given a standard SV650 with it's crashy, soggy suspension and mediocre brakes, and one with modern cartridge forks, proper gas rear shock all set up perfectly for the riders weight and the braking ability of a modern sportsbike, do you truly believe that a given rider would be equally quick on both of them?
A bike that handles and stops well inspires vastly more confidence than one that does not, and the more confidence you have in your machine they further you feel comfortable in pushing it.
agent wayward
13-09-13, 11:10 AM
You couldn't really be more wrong. Given a standard SV650 with it's crashy, soggy suspension and mediocre brakes, and one with modern cartridge forks, proper gas rear shock all set up perfectly for the riders weight and the braking ability of a modern sportsbike, do you truly believe that a given rider would be equally quick on both of them?
A bike that handles and stops well inspires vastly more confidence than one that does not, and the more confidence you have in your machine they further you feel comfortable in pushing it.
Eh?
No I don't believe that a given rider would be equally quick on two completely different bikes (which is essentially what we are talking about). If I did believe that, I'd have said that.
What I did say was this, try to read it before jumping to conclusions about what you think I might have said (that sounds patronising, sorry):
"Most mortals will run out of talent way before a stock pointy SV".
Here's my qualification for that statement.
I'm aware that suspension and brake upgrades improve a bike and can lead to a rider being able to ride it faster over a given course. That is a given. Having spent my entire life surrounded by bikes, working with them in the industry at all levels and roles, and now running my own motorcycle related business where I sometimes build bikes from scratch,; and coming from a club racing background with regard to riding I have a vague idea about these things. My experience shows me that most riders are hugely less talented than they believe and that money sent on training reaps far larger margins in terms of time over a course, than any amount of money spent on upgrades or a faster, better bike. A decent rider on a basic 600 will always make an average rider on a 1000 look like a fool.
So whilst I might be wrong on occasion, like all of us, I don't think I am wrong here.
Don't get me wrong, I love it when people mod their bikes, mine are never standard.
Carry on. :)
aesmith
13-09-13, 11:30 AM
It's not all about going faster. Improved road holding also translates into greater safety margins, and more sophisticated suspension can make a bike more comfortable as well.
agent wayward
13-09-13, 11:37 AM
It's not all about going faster. Improved road holding also translates into greater safety margins, and more sophisticated suspension can make a bike more comfortable as well.
Very true, and indisputable.
Or you could just ride a bit more slowly ans keep your eyes open. This gives the same benefits for free. ;)
aesmith
13-09-13, 12:01 PM
Or you could just ride a bit more slowly ans keep your eyes open. This gives the same benefits for free.
You miss the point I think, no matter how fast or slow, good road holding gives a greater safety margin than poor.
On a wider note, it's a bit silly to suggest that the SV doesn't benefit from suspension improvements because you could just ride slowly instead. In fact your suggestion confirms that it does benefit from such upgrades.
chris c
13-09-13, 01:22 PM
You couldn't really be more wrong. Given a standard SV650 with it's crashy, soggy suspension and mediocre brakes, and one with modern cartridge forks, proper gas rear shock all set up perfectly for the riders weight and the braking ability of a modern sportsbike, do you truly believe that a given rider would be equally quick on both of them?
A bike that handles and stops well inspires vastly more confidence than one that does not, and the more confidence you have in your machine they further you feel comfortable in pushing it.
Eh?
No I don't believe that a given rider would be equally quick on two completely different bikes (which is essentially what we are talking about). If I did believe that, I'd have said that.
What I did say was this, try to read it before jumping to conclusions about what you think I might have said (that sounds patronising, sorry):
"Most mortals will run out of talent way before a stock pointy SV".
Here's my qualification for that statement.
I'm aware that suspension and brake upgrades improve a bike and can lead to a rider being able to ride it faster over a given course. That is a given. Having spent my entire life surrounded by bikes, working with them in the industry at all levels and roles, and now running my own motorcycle related business where I sometimes build bikes from scratch,; and coming from a club racing background with regard to riding I have a vague idea about these things. My experience shows me that most riders are hugely less talented than they believe and that money sent on training reaps far larger margins in terms of time over a course, than any amount of money spent on upgrades or a faster, better bike. A decent rider on a basic 600 will always make an average rider on a 1000 look like a fool.
So whilst I might be wrong on occasion, like all of us, I don't think I am wrong here.
Don't get me wrong, I love it when people mod their bikes, mine are never standard.
Carry on. :)
Id agree with that
agent wayward
16-09-13, 09:03 AM
You miss the point I think, no matter how fast or slow, good road holding gives a greater safety margin than poor.
On a wider note, it's a bit silly to suggest that the SV doesn't benefit from suspension improvements because you could just ride slowly instead. In fact your suggestion confirms that it does benefit from such upgrades.
If you think a standard pointy SV has poor road holding, then I must disagree with you. There are better handling bikes and there are worse, but to describe it as poor is untrue.
Once again, a response that has failed to read what I have posted. It would indeed to be silly to suggest that the SV doesn't benefit from suspension improvements because you could just ride slowly instead.
If I had posted that. Which I didn't. Perhaps you'd like to read what I've posted and then you might understand what I am saying, rather than make an assumption about what you think I am saying. :)
yorkie_chris
16-09-13, 09:21 AM
Or you could just ride a bit more slowly ans keep your eyes open. This gives the same benefits for free. :wink:
That is a totally different set of benefits to the ones given by decent bouncy bits.
aesmith
16-09-13, 09:23 AM
I can't see what else you intended to mean when you wrote ..
Or you could just ride a bit more slowly ans keep your eyes open. This gives the same benefits for free.
agent wayward
16-09-13, 09:25 AM
That is a totally different set of benefits to the ones given by decent bouncy bits.
Greater safety margins and more comfort were being touted as the benefits and were what I was responding to.
Going more slowly will give you both of these benefits in larger amounts and for free. :)
agent wayward
16-09-13, 09:29 AM
I can't see what else you intended to mean when you wrote ..
"Or you could just ride a bit more slowly and keep your eyes open. This gives the same benefits for free. "
Perhaps I meant exactly what I wrote? Had you considered that?
It certainly doesn't suggest that an "SV doesn't benefit from suspension improvements", does it?
If it does, perhaps you can tell me how, because I can't see it myself.
"Or you could just ride a bit more slowly and keep your eyes open. This gives the same benefits for free. "
Perhaps I meant exactly what I wrote? Had you considered that?
It certainly doesn't suggest that an "SV doesn't benefit from suspension improvements", does it?
If it does, perhaps you can tell me how, because I can't see it myself.
Excuse the newbie, but my 06 Pointy has standard front end and brakes. It stops and handles perfectly fine. If you need to stop any harder then you aren't looking far enough ahead. If you need it to handle better, i.e. you can ride it to it's limit on the public road, then you are Cal Crutchlow and I hereby hand you my **** on a plate.
:smile:
The standard SV is simply "adequate" in standard form, provided you are a reasonably light weight rider. If you are a heavier person, or ride somewhat harder than the average person then the SV's limitations come to light very quickly on the road. On a nice smooth track this would almost certainly not be the case, but sadly our roads are nothing like that.
I needed my SV to handle much better than it did, because the forks would regularly smash into the stops when going over bumps, something which is hardly conducive to good control.
agent wayward
16-09-13, 10:37 AM
I am 13 stone. If I were to weigh much more, I'd consider eating less. ;)
I weigh in at over 15 stone.
I would just like a bike that does not feel like it has been lowered by xzibit every time I sit on it. Or have the suspension do "interesting" things when cornering because it isn't where it should be.
I thank Bibio, YC et al for the useful info and help re how I should upgrade my suspension and brakes.
I have a list of things I need to do and an order I need to address them.
As for the losing weight and sv being fine standard derails, that was not the point of the thread.
yorkie_chris
16-09-13, 10:48 AM
I am 13 stone. If I were to weigh much more, I'd consider eating less. ;)
Never take a pillion or carry luggage either?
agent wayward
16-09-13, 11:04 AM
Blimey. Do any you have a sense of humour?
YC: I have a sidecar if I want to take luggage. That bike has upgraded suspenders etc. to take the additional load. No pillion on the SV solo, I just cut the back end off it. :)
I am 13 stone. If I were to weigh much more, I'd consider eating less. ;)
Well done you.
Even 13 stone is pushing it for standard fork springs.
agent wayward
18-09-13, 07:30 AM
Well done you.
Even 13 stone is pushing it for standard fork springs.
Thank you. That's very kind of you to congratulate me. What a lovely person yu must be :)
My, I cannot imagine how I'm able to ride that poor wee undersprung bike, I'm surprised I'm not dead!
Red Herring
18-09-13, 07:44 AM
I think it depends on how you define "ride". YC belongs in the small minority out there who can recognize when they are approaching the limits of a bike and knows how to do something about it, others tend to believe everything they read and reach their mental limit long before they trouble the bike.
Bottom line is we tend to ride for pleasure and if you need to modify your bike so that you are are confident and happy riding it, regardless of whether it is actually necessary, then I see no reason why you shouldn't do it. I still think the cheapest and most effective mod you can make is to the nut that holds the handlebars, or the "carbon interface" in modern speak....
agent wayward
18-09-13, 08:41 AM
I think it depends on how you define "ride". YC belongs in the small minority out there who can recognize when they are approaching the limits of a bike and knows how to do something about it, others tend to believe everything they read and reach their mental limit long before they trouble the bike.
Bottom line is we tend to ride for pleasure and if you need to modify your bike so that you are are confident and happy riding it, regardless of whether it is actually necessary, then I see no reason why you shouldn't do it. I still think the cheapest and most effective mod you can make is to the nut that holds the handlebars, or the "carbon interface" in modern speak....
We have a diamond in the rough!
Wise words indeed. I agree with most of what you have said.
I've made it very clear that I have no problem with modified bikes, mine are never standard, your most effective mod is the one I have been talking about thoughout this thread!
What I disagree with is the opinion (not yours) that a standard sv is somehow almost unrideable (slight exaggeration) but this is the suggestion that people seem to be bandying around. The pointy SV that I now own has one previous owner, a lady of quite large stature, she rode that bike for over 30,000 miles completely standard.
Which leads me onto the only thing I disagree with you about. Whilst I do ride for pleasure occasionally, I am one of what is perhaps a dying breed, people that actually use motorcycles as transport. As was she. Don't get me wrong, I'm up for a ride for fun, but it tends to be a 2000 mile trip deep into Europe rather than a run to the local bike shop car park on a Sunday morning in a leather romper suit. ;)
What I disagree with is the opinion (not yours) that a standard sv is somehow almost unrideable (slight exaggeration) but this is the suggestion that people seem to be bandying around. The pointy SV that I now own has one previous owner, a lady of quite large stature, she rode that bike for over 30,000 miles completely standard.
Which leads me onto the only thing I disagree with you about. Whilst I do ride for pleasure occasionally, I am one of what is perhaps a dying breed, people that actually use motorcycles as transport. As was she. Don't get me wrong, I'm up for a ride for fun, but it tends to be a 2000 mile trip deep into Europe rather than a run to the local bike shop car park on a Sunday morning in a leather romper suit. ;)
I think you've missed the point. Regardless of rider ability or whether the SV in stock form can commute, sport ride, or track its simply a fact that aspects of the bike are budget. Not "unrideable" (slight exaggeration), budget.
I rode my SV almost 3,000 miles in 2 weeks in Europe this summer on most types of roads including some proper adventure single track road after taking one of many wrong turns. I am equipped to say what my modified SV lacks never mind the stock version.
Things like adjustable rebound and compression fr and bk, proper set up (if you know what you're doing) with good springs and of course decent maintenance make a significant difference . Its those moments where you need the bike to be at its best where the improvements show their worth.
It doesn't mean going balls out everywhere. It means when you're coming down a steep mountain gradient and realise that the double apex right hander is a bit more deep than you thought so you need the bike to settle mid-corner or when a sheep runs out into the middle of the road and you're really really hoping those GSXR brakes work.
For the average rider, they won't know the difference until they ride a better bike and then the difference is obvious. If that's not reason enough to improve for improvement sake alone, then why not?
Fact is, it all comes down to money. If Suzuki wanted they could have released the SV with uprated suspension and brakes to go along with the brilliant chasis and engine the bike has. The fact is those two qualities of the bike stand out from the stock suspension. To me upgrading the weaker points of the bike simply turns it into what it should have been as stock when released.
The question of "can you ride it? Is the rider good enough?" is always going to be debated but we'de all like to ride a better bike if we could no matter what our abilities.
yorkie_chris
18-09-13, 09:46 AM
What I disagree with is the opinion (not yours) that a standard sv is somehow almost unrideable (slight exaggeration) but this is the suggestion that people seem to be bandying around. The pointy SV that I now own has one previous owner, a lady of quite large stature, she rode that bike for over 30,000 miles completely standard.
Which leads me onto the only thing I disagree with you about. Whilst I do ride for pleasure occasionally, I am one of what is perhaps a dying breed, people that actually use motorcycles as transport.
It's not unrideable as stock. My current bike is a completely shagged XJ900F which had oil in the shocks once upon a time. Still perfectly rideable.
It's not exactly confidence inspiring in corners though :-P
especially the other day when I had an electric breaker, a 3KVA 110V transformer and a 50m 110 extension lead bungeed on the back!
In fact you might even say it handled like a polished turd on roller skates.
On the other hand the 650, a few years ago, had a bergen on the back with IIRC a 24 pack of ale, about 3 5l wine boxes and a load of meat in it. I rode it like a complete *rsehole from one end of wales to the other at an interesting average speed,
Other than the slightly wheelie happy nature, having a proper shock made doing that really really easy.
That's the whole point, it's the difference between things being "rideable" and being good, easy to ride and confidence inspiring.
The stock, sack of crap forks that bang off the stops every time you hit a fag packet while braking don't do that.
A good rider can ride around poor suspension, other people need a bit of help :mrgreen:
Nobbylad
18-09-13, 10:44 AM
...putting all of that aside, the internet is always full of people making smug comments to make it appear that they are better/more knowledgeable than others.
See?
Have a fight and see who's the best
agent wayward
18-09-13, 11:26 AM
It's amazing how many people read things, disregard them, then comment upon what they decide you actually meant. :D
I can take a great handling bike, say a Panigale, and turn it into an immensely superbly handling bike.
(if only Jerry Burgess could do the same with the GP bike ;) )
It's always possible to improve what you have. All I am saying is this: (again)
For the vast majority of people, a stock pointy SV is perfectly good, they will never explore it's limits o the public road.
Willy waving aside, that is all there is. Most people modify their bike because they want to impress other people, not because they ride beyond the capabilities of the bike.
YC's last sentence:
A good rider can ride around poor suspension, other people need a bit of help
It's a far, far better thing to become a good rider, or at least improve, than to spend money on modifications.
The cost / benefit ratio is infinitely higher.
ps. I'm not really up for a fight. :)
I have to agree that extra training has made the most significant change to my riding. I'm not having a "OH FECK" moment every ride and as a consequence I'm having more fun.
HOWEVER, and its a big however jumping off my SV onto a friends R6 for a quick comparison I felt far more comfortable at a greater lean angle with a bit more speed as the front end felt like it was going where I wanted and not going mental every time it hit a rut or bump in the road.
We are of a similar size and his suspension has been set up by a professional for his style of riding.
This feeling of confidence in the bike ment I had even more fun!
This is my opinion as someone with nowhere near as much experience or knowledge as you lot. I would also say I am not a quick or very capable rider.
Crap suspension + no training = limited fun
Crap suspension + rider training = fun!
Good, set up suspension + rider training = even more fun!!!
aesmith
18-09-13, 11:52 AM
I guess you won't change from your one-man campaign against suspension modification by mere mortals. For myself if I can find a way to stop the forks bottoming so easily and skittering wide on bumpy corners then that's what I'll do. I don't specially care whether or not these mods would be needed by a better rider.
yorkie_chris
18-09-13, 12:01 PM
For the vast majority of people, a stock pointy SV is perfectly good, they will never explore it's limits o the public road.
This is the crux of it and why I'm disagreeing with you.
They will not explore the limits. They won't even get close, but it's not about that. How fast you go is determined by the riders head.
Make the rider confident and they'll go faster. The fact that you've increased the absolute traction available to 101% of what it was a minute ago is nothing to do with it... it's the fact that they're now comfortable pushing themselves to 50% rather than 30%.
How many people crash due to crapping themselves and standing the bike up? Sort the geometry and make it so that it doesn't want to run wide, it helps.
Ever been passed on a trackday by someone riding a completely knackered bike? I'll run it by you again, it's not about expanding the absolute limits of the machine, it's about making it work well in the operating envelope it's going to be used in.
As for training, pft, just get out and ride the fckin bike.
take a nice twisty B road and put a rider on a standard SV 650 then put the same rider on a standard GSXR 600 and i'll bet they go faster on the GSXR and its not because of the extra power, it's because the GSXR has much much better suspension and brakes. now transfer the suspension and brakes to the SV and i'll bet they go just as fast as the GSXR if not slightly faster.
It's amazing how many people read things, disregard them, then comment upon what they decide you actually meant. :D
I can take a great handling bike, say a Panigale, and turn it into an immensely superbly handling bike.
(if only Jerry Burgess could do the same with the GP bike ;) )
It's always possible to improve what you have. All I am saying is this: (again)
For the vast majority of people, a stock pointy SV is perfectly good, they will never explore it's limits o the public road.
Ok, if you wish to be anal about it - how do you know "the vast majority of people" never get to the limits? Isn't this an unsupported supposition? Like "reading something and then disregarding it" to make the point you want to prove? Where's the evidence of this 'fact'?
I'd say the inidication that the majority of people in this thread are saying they have issues with the suspension is proof enough that these limitations are real & warrant attention (i.e. upgrading). I'd even suggest that the majority here could represent a sample of the majority of owners - although I have no other evidence with which to justify this statement.
YC's analogy is indeed a good one. The Panigale analogy wasn't. You're talking about the capabilities of a £20k bike v an SV650. There is no relative argument here as there is far more benefit for your average rider in improving a budget bike than something which is top of the range.
Winder's point is also good. Unless you simply potter around in good weather all the time at some point an average rider, who is presumably improving his riding ability, will discover some of the weaknesses in the bike.
agent wayward
18-09-13, 03:01 PM
Ever been passed on a trackday by someone riding a completely knackered bike? I'll run it by you again, it's not about expanding the absolute limits of the machine, it's about making it work well in the operating envelope it's going to be used in.
As for training, pft, just get out and ride the fckin bike.
Nah, can't abide track days, way too full of people with far more ego than talent. Not a fun combination for me.
I do get your point of course. Making it work well in the envelope it's used in. Fair enough. If slightly pointless. ;)
Like you and many others, I will mod my bikes and improve them but unlike you and many others, I'm not going to kid myself that most people that do this, need to. Because they don't.
I've never received any training myself, being a bit old school, or maybe that's just "old", I dunno. But from what I see on a daily basis, there are many that would benefit from some. Getting out and riding your bike is all very well, (most people barely ride at all) but simply repeating the mistakes you've always made, just more often, isn't really going to help some people.
Runako, if you'd like to ask everyone to support everything they say on the forum with some sort of evidence, feel free. I wish you luck. But don't take some people's word as fact and question anothers, simply because you disagree with their viewpoint. OK?
I think it was about 5 pages ago that I agreed that a given rider would be faster on a better suspended bike. And AESMITH, I do not have any kind of campaign against modifiying bikes for anyone, can you not read? I've said this in just about every post!
:)
yorkie_chris
18-09-13, 03:08 PM
The Panigale analogy wasn't.
Terrible analogy, simple reason being the SV650 will still work 70,000 miles later when the panigale is a melted pile of electrical death.
Come on don't be crass. You had suggested others were factually incorrect to say the SV had inadequate suspension. You made a general assumption about the average rider not finding the limit of the suspenion, which is seemingly based on nothing but your own experience and opinion. I'm suggesting you start listening to other people's viewpoints rather than keeping an insular view. I haven't accepted anyone else's opinion as fact, as its just an opinon. Of course mine is the best opinon ;) And yes, I can confirm that after 8 pages of nonsense I DISAGREE with your viewpoint.
aesmith
18-09-13, 03:40 PM
And AESMITH, I do not have any kind of campaign against modifiying bikes for anyone, can you not read? I've said this in just about every post!
You've posted maybe ten or more times or so on this thread, which started off discussing the most effective upgrades for the SV. All your posts have either advised against such upgrades, or stated that they're unnecessary, or recommended alternatives like riding slower or losing weight or getting training. Actually "recommended" is an understatement, your stance was more dogmatic than that. If you don't feel you're speaking out against these modifications, then what was your intention?
chris c
18-09-13, 03:50 PM
I feel you guys will never agree! and its quite funny how you all get stressed about it!
My opinion is that the standard bike its fairy good for what it is, yes it dives under braking and wobbles if you hit a bump mid bend at pace, but its very forgiving and i quite enjoy it moving around. On Saturday i completed a trackday at Snetterton on a completey standard k3 pointy with mismatched tyres and was running in the top 3rd of the inters group with no issues over taking many a sports bike on slicks or track tyres in the bends ( im not trying to make myself sound like a **** or a moto gp rider either, just quite a average road and track rider)
My last bike ( Aprilia RSV1000R factory had full Ohlins and Brembo's) and my old trackbike had K-tech forks and a Nitron shock so know what a well set up bikes feels like and yes they do give more confidence and better control.
Basically i can see both sides of this! and yes i will be upgrading my suspension basically because i like tinkering with things!!
one of the mates has recently got a curvy and he is 20st. he loves it and it's the only bike he has ever owned that he has no chicken strips left on his tyres. ooohhh he also has not one bit of mechanical sympathy and knows nothing apart from how to ride a bike and has been riding bikes on and off for 30 years. he admits that the suspension is a bit soft. lol
yorkie_chris
18-09-13, 06:16 PM
Anyone can get rid of their chicken strips if the wheel rims are mashed flat into the tarmac!
Anyone can get rid of their chicken strips if the wheel rims are mashed flat into the tarmac!
that's somewhere along the lines of what i said :cool:
this same bloke bought an old steel frame CBR600F with slightly tweaked suspension and got rid after one 60 miles run as and i will quote ''its too fast and handles too well, it's making me out to be a better rider than i am''
i couldn't stop laughing for about an hour.
wideguy
18-09-13, 08:35 PM
I can't resist. I had a friend who was a talented club racer. In 2000, he wanted to race the Suzuki Cup final, because it paid good money. In order to be eligible, he had to race in at least one regular season race, so, for the last regular race, he brought a bone stock '00 SV650 to the track. The only mods were clip on's ond a race exhaust. He immediately went a second a lap quicker than everybody else. Lots of the other racers had GSXR front ends, Ohlins or Penske shocks, 2mm overbored engines- at the least, emulators and 4 pot calipers.
He came in to the pits, put on some rear sets so he wouldn't drag the pegs on every corner, and went back out and went 2 seconds a lap quicker than everyone else.
It's good advice to learn to ride well before you spend money on mods. I raced my '81 CB900F in '94. My first time racing. I learned to deal with long spindly forks and a flexible chassis. In '95 I raced a FZR400. I got a trophy (3rd) in my first race.
My race school teacher told us- "Buy a stock bike, other than gearing for the track, keep it stock. Spend your money on track time and tires. If you can't get into the top 1/3 of your class on a stock bike, don't bother spending money on mods, you probably won't go any faster anyway."
My race school teacher told us- "Buy a stock bike, other than gearing for the track, keep it stock. Spend your money on track time and tires. If you can't get into the top 1/3 of your class on a stock bike, don't bother spending money on mods, you probably won't go any faster anyway."
Its a great story but its only one of many ways to learn. For example, I'm guessing you were able to experience a few different bikes at that time. This in itself is learning because you figure out the characteristics and relative strengths/weaknesses of those bikes. A poor bike is a poor bike and you wouldn't go racing with it.
But the SV isn't a poor bike at all. Still, its possible to find the limits of a stock SV and feel the need to improve it. In your own example, changing out the rearsets is a mod. Its one of the first things I did. Ok, I wasn't scraping peg like an animal but your friend found the limit of the stock setup and changed it. Same principle with the suspension, despite how good he was able to use stock he would have probably been better if he had the improved suspension.
He was probably fine with stock because, as you said, he's a talented rider with experience and confidence. Whereas he may have been up against people who didn't have the same talent and could not compensate for the deficiencies in the bike.
Thank you. That's very kind of you to congratulate me. What a lovely person yu must be :)
My, I cannot imagine how I'm able to ride that poor wee undersprung bike, I'm surprised I'm not dead!
If you ride very slowly then it's probably not too bad ;)
Red Herring
19-09-13, 09:01 AM
Which leads me onto the only thing I disagree with you about. Whilst I do ride for pleasure occasionally, I am one of what is perhaps a dying breed, people that actually use motorcycles as transport. As was she. Don't get me wrong, I'm up for a ride for fun, but it tends to be a 2000 mile trip deep into Europe rather than a run to the local bike shop car park on a Sunday morning in a leather romper suit. ;)
You misunderstood me, although in fairness I didn't put it very well.
When I say we ride for pleasure I don't necessarily mean we ride recreationally, rather we choose to ride because we enjoy it over the alternative. Many people commute by bike when they could just as easily get the train, or sit in a traffic jam... however they get pleasure from riding their bike to work. I spent many years riding a bike at work, I didn't have to but I put myself up for it because it was great fun being paid to go out all day and do pretty much whatever I wanted...... It also made me appreciate all the more just how well my own bike handled on my days off! We are all individuals, including you as evidenced by your last sentence. Riding a bike is an individual pleasure and I see no reason why an individual shouldn't be able to do whatever they want to enhance that pleasure.....provided the only person affected is themselves.
aesmith
20-09-13, 02:32 PM
If you ride very slowly then it's probably not too bad ;)And try to not drive over manhole covers, or try not to wince at the clonk when you do.
agent wayward
23-09-13, 06:53 AM
I feel you guys will never agree! and its quite funny how you all get stressed about it!
My opinion is that the standard bike its fairy good for what it is, yes it dives under braking and wobbles if you hit a bump mid bend at pace, but its very forgiving and i quite enjoy it moving around. On Saturday i completed a trackday at Snetterton on a completey standard k3 pointy with mismatched tyres and was running in the top 3rd of the inters group with no issues over taking many a sports bike on slicks or track tyres in the bends ( im not trying to make myself sound like a **** or a moto gp rider either, just quite a average road and track rider)
My last bike ( Aprilia RSV1000R factory had full Ohlins and Brembo's) and my old trackbike had K-tech forks and a Nitron shock so know what a well set up bikes feels like and yes they do give more confidence and better control.
Basically i can see both sides of this! and yes i will be upgrading my suspension basically because i like tinkering with things!!
I find it funny how various people are getting all stressy too. :D
Good to see someone else with the ability to see both sides of a discussion. A rare thing on any bike forum.
agent wayward
23-09-13, 07:01 AM
Anyone can get rid of their chicken strips if the wheel rims are mashed flat into the tarmac!
Christ, do people still equate chicken strips or lack of, as a measure of riding skill? Seriously, I thought this was just teenaged boys.
If you ride very slowly then it's probably not too bad ;)
It had to come, we have a winner ladies! The "you are slow" jibe. Congratulations. :D
And try to not drive over manhole covers, or try not to wince at the clonk when you do.
Generally, I find it good practice to avoid manhole covers as they can be slippery. If your front end is bottoming out on a manhole cover, I suggest that you deal with the problem, whatever it might be.
Mine certainly does not and that's a 30k mile standard front end.
Of course, yours does not, as you have improved your forks. :)
agent wayward
23-09-13, 07:11 AM
Come on don't be crass. You had suggested others were factually incorrect to say the SV had inadequate suspension. You made a general assumption about the average rider not finding the limit of the suspenion, which is seemingly based on nothing but your own experience and opinion. I'm suggesting you start listening to other people's viewpoints rather than keeping an insular view. I haven't accepted anyone else's opinion as fact, as its just an opinon. Of course mine is the best opinon ;) And yes, I can confirm that after 8 pages of nonsense I DISAGREE with your viewpoint.
Always best to avoid the question when you're found out, eh? ;)
My view isn't insular, I've made it totally clear that obviously any bike can be modified and improved, which will increase what a given rider can do on it.
I cited my experience and how I've developed my views, which are far from insular. You wish to discredit my statement, but not others simply because you prefer their's to mine. It's no biggie.
Many others have agreed with me that a stock pointy is perfectly adequate for most people and if the rider has an ounce of talent, it can be ridden very rapidly indeed.
I can't really see that there is anything for anyone to argue with.
Mod if you want to, don't if you don't. Improve your riding skills or improve your bike to compensate for or enhance them. The choice is yours.
You have to remember that comments are made in relation to the original post. Saying the above now is just a load of general statements which don't really add to the OP's question - which was should he change the front end or just improve it?
The question suggests he wants to change stock perhaps because stock isn't good enough. So leaving the bike stock was not really one of the options asked about. I agree its still useful to discuss the merits of stock but the experience posters have had of stock suspension isn't good.
This was never a question about whether a talented rider could get the best out of stock, or whether the standard front end is suitable for most riders. It was about opinons on improving the stock setup front and rear.
So they responses which you say are stressy are simply giving advice from the beenfit of experience. Also, I don't choose someone else's view over yours. I'm endorsing a similar view based on my own experience. Different thing. I disagree with your view because of my own experience with the front end.
I bet if you did a poll the majority would choose front end improvement because stock isn't good enough (based on their own experience).
agent wayward
23-09-13, 10:32 AM
You have to remember that comments are made in relation to the original post. Saying the above now is just a load of general statements which don't really add to the OP's question - which was should he change the front end or just improve it?
The question suggests he wants to change stock perhaps because stock isn't good enough. So leaving the bike stock was not really one of the options asked about. I agree its still useful to discuss the merits of stock but the experience posters have had of stock suspension isn't good.
This was never a question about whether a talented rider could get the best out of stock, or whether the standard front end is suitable for most riders. It was about opinons on improving the stock setup front and rear.
So they responses which you say are stressy are simply giving advice from the beenfit of experience. Also, I don't choose someone else's view over yours. I'm endorsing a similar view based on my own experience. Different thing. I disagree with your view because of my own experience with the front end.
I bet if you did a poll the majority would choose front end improvement because stock isn't good enough.
I'd guarantee that a poll would show that the majority would choose front end improvement. Wether they need it or not is another matter entirely! ;)
I guess maybe I'm just old school and was brought up on a diet of bikes with dreadful suspension and brakes, many of which I raced and all of which would make the SV look like a pinnacle of suspension and brake design.
Of course you are right about this thread, but isn't it the way of forums and indeed conversation, to meander into related topics? Perhaps I should read the rules.
No no, on the contrary I agree. It just adds to the debate. Which is better than some nonsical garbage that you find on some forums.
And yes, I do think its a generational/experience thing (not calling you old or nothing) but I've heard a lot of stories from riders who remember riding with Deathtrap Bridgestons and twin shocks that had as much damping as a concrete slab. And then they told me about the 'Widowmaker' and i just can't beleive people use to ride and race these bikes back then. Definitely qudos to the brave fellows who blazed that trail.
But back to this discussion, I of only a few years experience is only used to SV forks at the lower end of the spectrum and automatic suspension at the higher end. I don't have experience of worse - other than a bicycle without suspension.
Its like imagining what it was like before during the war when there was rationing ("Wot no McDonalds?") or before mobile phones or now smartphones. Once a generation embraces these new things then they become the new standard and a lot of what came before fades to irrelevence to a certain extent.
Maybe us less experienced riders would do well to try out some of these older bikes to really get a feel for what they were like. I'm sure that would be a useful learining experience :)
agent wayward
23-09-13, 11:23 AM
No no, on the contrary I agree. It just adds to the debate. Which is better than some nonsical garbage that you find on some forums.
And yes, I do think its a generational/experience thing (not calling you old or nothing) but I've heard a lot of stories from riders who remember riding with Deathtrap Bridgestons and twin shocks that had as much damping as a concrete slab. And then they told me about the 'Widowmaker' and i just can't beleive people use to ride and race these bikes back then. Definitely qudos to the brave fellows who blazed that trail.
But back to this discussion, I of only a few years experience is only used to SV forks at the lower end of the spectrum and automatic suspension at the higher end. I don't have experience of worse - other than a bicycle without suspension.
Its like imagining what it was like before during the war when there was rationing ("Wot no McDonalds?") or before mobile phones or now smartphones. Once a generation embraces these new things then they become the new standard and a lot of what came before fades to irrelevence to a certain extent.
Maybe us less experienced riders would do well to try out some of these older bikes to really get a feel for what they were like. I'm sure that would be a useful learining experience :)
Interesting stuff!
I love it when a bike comes out and it gets slated by the press as an evil handling dog, or whatever. I bought an XJR1300 in 1999 when they first were updated from the 1200 model. The press said it was a dinosaur and handled like a barge.
It's a heavy, steel framed, air cooled beast with twin rear shocks and a basic front end, pre load only adjustment.
At that time I was riding with a group of mates on sportsbikes, Fireblades and the like. The first time out they were surprised how I was not just keeping up, but staying ahead from time to time. I found it one of the easiest bikes to ride really fast on the road. It wasn't flighty, it had to be hauled around corners and it has massive grunt and engine braking. It was wallowy and soft but incredible stable.
Nothing like the old 70's and 80's bikes that it was trying to be, they had spindly forks, dreadful brakes and were even heavier.
After a year or so I was pretty much unbeatable on that bike.
I bought the Speed Triple when they did the major redesign in 2005. It was a litre triple, so loads of torque again, but the bike weighed about as much as a fag paper. I rode it like I did the XJR. I sold it a year later after touring Europe and doing the TT on it, as well as my daily ride. It bored me.
Rapid, yes. Very. But it was far to easy to ride fast. No sensation of effort required, just think yourself around corners at whatever speed you like. I realised that I was really pushing my limits to get the bike to excite me, which was becoming dangerous, at some point, someone was going to get hurt.
So modern sportsbikes don't interest me particularly. Dull as ditchwater. Like a sanitised version of biking.
You are wrong on one point. What comes before fades into irrelevence? No, I'm afraid that history is probably the most important thing that exists. Without history, we would have learned nothing. I grew up in a time of no mobiles, no internet, no speed cameras, 2 strokes and fast women. Social networking was done in the pub after work and safety was something you laughed at. I'm not that old though :lol:, 45 when I last checked. 29 of those on a bike.
You are wrong on one point. What comes before fades into irrelevence? No, I'm afraid that history is probably the most important thing that exists.
I tempered that with "to a certain extent" because I agree progress can't occur without history. Really I'm making the point in relation to a young rider's consciousness of what existed before a certain time. i.e. I know historically there've been two world wars before my time, but I cannot relate to it so its a conscious irrelevence to my everyday life. However, I'm aware I could not have the life that I do - all these wonderful toys to play with - without appreciating what happened as a result of those two world wars.
I like the anecdote also and I believe its true. I've seen similar with one of my mates who rides an ER6 and puts most other sportsbikers riders to shame in anything less than a long straight line. For sure I agree that the rider is most important.
29 years of biking? If I should be so lucky! Was still in my nappies when you started your adventure so I envy your experience :)
wideguy
24-09-13, 12:03 PM
So, proper rate springs and emulators make the front end very good. Adding 4 pot calipers makes the brakes excellent. Neither very difficult or expensive.
That's what I did to my curvy. It's improved from being just good. I like it better. I think I'll keep it for a long time.
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