Racetech emulators and shock question, Pointy.

[chris SVK3]

Just looking at race tech emulators for a pointy sv. I have a coup,e of questions about them
1, Has any body fitted these, if so are they easy to do?
2, what price to have done my a shop?
3, would they be worth for my bike as I'm planning to mainly use I on track but still do about of touring?

As for shock i see people use gsxr or zx10 shock but would I be better off with nitron sport shock?

I'm not planning on doing this work till next year as money is tight but I still want to keep the costs down as this bike will be ridden for fun rather than trying to break track records.

Thanks

[jambo]

Hi Chris,
Fitting the emulators is very simple, plenty of people have done it. To get the best from them the instructions advise modifying the damper rods which means taking the forks apart, to drill out the compression holes and perhaps weld up a rebound hole. This is not essential to their operation and you can fit them without doing this (I have with a road and track SV at present).
If you're not in a hurry you can try using the Debrix emulators as talked about here (http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=202712). They need a bushing made so they can fit the pointy SV but they are cheaper than the racetec versions.

There are several shocks that can be fitted, most require some sort of modification to the bike to fit (though some are quite straightforward). The easiest route to getting a good quality shock set up for you is to fit something like a Nitron Sport or Nitron Street shock. It'll fit, it'll work and it'll be sprung and damped correctly out of the box. But that does cost more and if you can find a ZXR or GSXR shock that suits your weight and riding style they are cheaper.

Jambo

[johnnyrod]

As Jambo says, you can just drop the Racetech ones in, you'll have to shorten the spacer tubes in the fork tops by an inch (height of an emulator). They don't make the forks noticeably stiffer - if you haven't already got aftermarket springs then get them. They do make the comp damping much more subtle as in stock form it's pretty crude. I would set them to the "road" settings from Racetech which is 2 turns of emulator preload. You need a stupid Imperial size Allen key for this. Also the springs on the emulators are very soft, so be careful setting the preload. You wind the Allen bolt in by hand until the slop has gone, then turn it in another 2 turns then lock it. Because it's so soft you need to do the first part by eye i.e. look for the gap disappearing.

Price from a shop? You'd get it done at the same time as a fork oil change.

[chris SVK3]

Thanks for the advice, I changed spring and oil in my last sv with maxton spring and it made a massive improvement and changed the shock for a k3 gsxr shock.

I'm just a bit concerned that now I have ridden bikes with great suspension set up that the the above wouldn't be enough to give me confidence to fling the bike it corners. However, I'm not made of money so don't want spend it on improvement that I won't notice.

[peeterus]

"You need a stupid Imperial size Allen key for this"
...or use of a T20 instead

[The Black Grouse]

I will be ordering DEBRIX EMULATORS

http://www.debrix.com/41mm-Fork-Damp...t.htm?CartID=1 (http://www.debrix.com/41mm-Fork-Damper-Valve-2000-up-Harley-FXST-Softail-p/24-0361-vt.htm?CartID=1)


I will order them on the 30th November.

So anybody wanting to tag on to this order let me know!


More peeps = bigger discount!

[Rods being modified for the Emu's by YC (cheers)]

Kenny

[Nutsinatin]

I've got the race tech emus and I'm more than happy to throw it around on the road, but it's not seen the track yet, I also went for new springs at the same time so not sure on effectiveness of the emus on their own, but they are great for the road with new springs, think it was two hours labour + parts with loose forks (emus, oil and springs) for the garage.

[dkid]

2, what price to have done by a shop?


When I did my pointy suspension I bought K-tech 0.85 linear springs, debrix emulators & new silkolene rsf pro 10w oil. Then I just unbolted my front forks, boxed 'em up with the springs, emu's & oil and sent the lot to YC. He did the damper rod modification, made up the spacer to locate the emu's properly, then he re-assembled the forks with the new springs & oil and sent them back to me.

From leaving me to getting them back, I was only without the forks for seven days. When I got them back it was just a case of bolting the forks back onto the bike and setting preload.

Price was very reasonable and doing it this way suited me at the time due to the wife having just had baby number two. I'd definitely recommend YC although you'd be best to discus prices etc privately with him.

I went with a ZX10r rear shock but did that myself as it's a much quicker and easier job. The whole package worked well for me and was much, much better than standard.

HTH :)

[johnnyrod]

If you want the VFM route then change the fork springs first and then add the emulators when you can afford the extra time and money. To be honest once you've got the forks in buts the extra bit of money on parts for the emulators is worth it. If your main use is track then seriously consider the GSXR front end route - it'll mess with your cash flow but if you sell the OE bits off again you won't be so out of pocket, I'm told. Deffo better forks all round, plus better brakes. I ride my SV on a track a couple of times a year, and maybe linear springs instead of the progressives would help the feel, but if you really want to tramp on then the front end is the weak bit. The rest of the bike is up there though I'd say.

[SV650Racer]

However, I'm not made of money so don't want spend it on improvement that I won't notice.

Big difference especially on track. All the Minitwins we prepare for racing have the Racetech emmulator setup and a Nitron shock (the race one - the sport shock is very good though) and the lads that race them really do push them to the limit.

[johnnyrod]

What do you do in terms of front rebound damping, Sarah? Everyone seem sto have something different to say on that.

[SV650Racer]

What do you do in terms of front rebound damping, Sarah? Everyone seem sto have something different to say on that.

Its a secret:cool:

Na depends very much on the rider and their pace, height etc as most of the forks we do are being used for racing.

[The Black Grouse]

Hi People, little update. So as well as myself there are 6 others at the moment on my list looking for the Debrix Emulators;

Prisspringle
disco
BigshotPie
TicklinJock
Redmist
Chris SVK3

These are the emulators we're talking about:

http://www.debrix.com/41mm-Fork-Damper-Valve-2000-up-Harley-FXST-Softail-p/24-0361-vt.htm

The problem in buying a single pair from Debrix is the UPS priority shipping / postage charge from the States - it's much more than the price of the emulators themselves. Group Buying works by spreading the cost of postage between everyone until it becomes relatively cheap.

I said I would be putting in the order at the end of the month, and I will. However I cannot say how much this will cost until I know how many people are in. I guess on the 30th I'll confirm numbers (and therefore cost) then PM you all for confirmation. Does this sound fair? That way I won't keep getting asked how much its gonna cost.

Cheers

Kenny

[The Black Grouse]

myself
****pringle
Disco
Bigshotpie
TicklinJock
Redmist
Chris SVK3
Mickrobbomw
Minty101
Jonnydipstick
Skippy and finally
Muzikill

Will soon be (once I've had confirms via PM) in possession of a pair of Debrix Emulators for a mere £30 delivered!

http://www.debrix.com/41mm-Fork-Damper-Valve-2000-up-Harley-FXST-Softail-p/24-0361-vt.htm

You might be able to get in on this and further our discount if you are very very quick, need to know within hours please!

kind regards

Kenny

[wideguy]

What do you do in terms of front rebound damping, Sarah? Everyone seem sto have something different to say on that.
IDK about the Debrix, but when you buy the Race Tech emulators, they recommend oil viscosity to match the emulator set up, based on your intended riding. That takes care of the rebound, matching it to the suggested compression damping.

[yorkie_chris]

More important to match rebound to spring.

My take on it is to weld up the rebound hole to allow use of thinner and better VI oils. You can make comp damping with emu so no need for heavy oil.

[wideguy]

More important to match rebound to spring.

My take on it is to weld up the rebound hole to allow use of thinner and better VI oils. You can make comp damping with emu so no need for heavy oil.
Sure, it's all interconnected, but if you install proper rate springs and light oil, and set the emulators to give enough compression damping, and that results in not enough rebound damping, you wouldn't change the springs.
Do you know of a way to get more rebound damping other than increasing oil viscosity?

[yorkie_chris]

Well I convinced myself that welding up the damper rod and then machining it round again wasn't the way forward! I got a working fork but not sure how much extra rebound it made. Small enough difference that I thought "f*** this until I get myself a dyno". That and a set of rods would have been about £500.
Unfortunately you can't use an emulator-like valve in reverse either as it would cavitate.

By "light" oils I mean lighter than if you don't weld hole... ends up in range of 50ishcSt oil for say 85 springs.

But no, I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, I just do same as everyone else and tune the rebound characteristics using oil viscosity. Too much uncontrolled bleed in damper rod forks to do anything else.

[wideguy]

If I remember Race Techs description correctly, that "rebound hole" acts as a bleed in both compression and rebound after the emulators are installed.
Just from the experience of using RT's recommended settings and oil viscosity on 4 bikes I've owned, (2 for racing, the other 2 for mostly street and a track day now and then) I know their recommendations work. Damping is good in both directions. With the emulators installed, rebound damping is also controlled by the emulator. It's just not adjustable.

[yorkie_chris]

Yeah true it would be both directions though minimal effect in comp given the relative sizes of the holes!

Aye but there's a light check spring on the emu, contribution to rebound is minimal. You can see this if you try same fork with and without emu, they are about the same in rebound. If it made lots of pressure on rebound it would cavitate.

What oil racetech recommend? I hear they wrote sv emu instructions before SV existed.

[wideguy]

http://racetech.com/images/book/3-19-500.jpg
This is Race Tech's diagram of pressure and flow during rebound. I was wrong about the emulators controlling rebound. Rebound damping is unchanged from original, and is altered, if needed, by oil viscosity changes. Then of course you will probably have to readjust the compression settings to compensate for the altered oil viscosity. It looks like if you weld up the rebound hole, their isn't much chance of oil getting out of chamber "B" during rebound, just leakage past the check valve?
I don't remember what viscosity RT recommended for my SV650 installation, it was I think 9 years ago that I installed them, and I can't find the paperwork. I really do need to dig it up, as I should change the fork oil. Hadn't realized it had been so long...
Damper rod forks existed long before the SV was created. It certainly wouldn't take much developmental testing to set emulators up for a "new" bike. Maybe they didn't do any. Nevertheless, installed as per the instructions, they work really well.
Found it! RT says 20 weight oil for my setup, 130mm oil level.

[yorkie_chris]

Yes just lots of leakage, it's a really baggy fit between check valve and o/d of rod.

[wideguy]

So, how thin does the oil have to be in order to not make the rebound too slow?
And then, how tight do you have to wind down the emulator valve spring?
And, how is the final setup, when you reach it, better than just leaving the rebound hole open and using more viscous oil?

[yorkie_chris]

Well with 85 springs 37cSt is a bit bouncy. 47cSt works well. With hole closed, YMMV!

Advantage is thinner oils can have better VI.

[wideguy]

Thanks. If I ever have a problem with my fork damping fading, perhaps I'll weld up the rebound holes, add thinner oil (with a better VI) and repeatedly remove and replace the emulators to adjust the settings until I get the compression damping right again.