Good business sense, or political expedience

[timwilky]

So, is todays announcements of the closure of the Portsmouth dockyard and a 20 year lifeline to the Clyde, cynical politics playing with the lives of hard working individuals. Or good business.

Establish a single centre of excellence and exploit it. But what happens if those north of the border still wave two finger as us English?

[timwilky]

Prompted by working for a company that went into a joint venture with a foreign company to find their interpretation of joint venture meant take over. I.E. All foreigners are lieing backstabbing duplicitous ****s.

[timwilky]

Prompted by working for a company that went into a joint venture with a foreign company to find their interpretation of joint venture meant take over. I.E. All foreigners are lieing backstabbing duplicitous ****s.
and dont think BAE systems is English

[Bibio]

Establish a single centre of excellence and exploit it. But what happens if those north of the border still wave two finger as us English?

WTF are you on about?

[timwilky]

Shutting Portsmouth dockyard to keep Govan and Scotstoun is an attempt to buy the upcoming vote of the Scottish shipbuilders.

I accept there is a deep routed tradition of ship bulding on these sites and the guys do a fine job that should be exploited in bring more business to the yards. But is it going to backfire on BAE systems and the English parliament if Scotland says no?

After all. A country that has built its reputation for the past 500 years as a naval power having to buy its ships from a foreign country won't cast much clout. I can hardly see the investment staying in place!

And my comments re forieners was meant for those guys who think they still have a job. Don't trust anyone.

[Bibio]

British ship building is dead and gone m8. better and cheaper ships are being built in such places as China so weather it be in Govan or Portsmouth makes no odds as in 20 or so years time there will be no ships built in the UK. don't blame the Scottish for something that Westminster has done.

what your trying to say is that you resent the fact that Govan have got the jobs and Portsmouth haven't?

and if your on about Scotland maybe getting independence then who cares as all that will change is revenue raised in Scotland will stay in Scotland and Scotland will be in control of their own finances. there will be no 'split' and everything will stay the same.

Scotland would still have to pay back it's share per head of the deficit, pay towards the British army etc.etc.

it's amazing the rumours going about south of the border and some of them are bloody hilarious.

the Scottish will vote how they vote and to tell the truth with all the lies and rumours floating about i very very much doubt that Scotland will get independence.

so Tim do you as an Englishman resent the fact that Govan has got contracts to build ships and Portsmouth hasn't and if so why?

[maviczap]

Looks on the face of it to be just a political decision, feel sorry for both groups.

Bibs right I can't see ship building lasting more than 20 years, our current fleet were built in Holland, as all the small yards have closed down.

[andrewsmith]

I know what Tim is on about, its political. Says it all when the BBC interview the defense Secretary and say it's political.

Bibio sadly it is. Swan Hunter was closed about 6 years ago by the government as they hadn't paid BAE's invoices on time

Sent from my ST25i using Tapatalk 2

[Wideboy]

Ship building, aswell as most industries will shut up from the south first and work it's way up the British Isles as the cost of living is so ridiculous down here (bigger wages). We're just about to buy a house, the prices are insane compared to most other places in the UK and the house market is supposed to be at a low. I don't think people really understand how different the cost of living really is across the country.

BAE in Hamble have had 2 rounds of mass lay offs since the "credit crunch", vospers in Woolston is completely gone and now yuppy marina housing, vospers in Portsmouth have had mass lay offs, the transit factory went last year, aswell as countless aircraft manufacturers that used to be in the Southampton area that over the years have gone. The cost of living (as well as some politics and costs in general) is squeezing out industry in this country like zits. Soon all the UK will be is one big office doing admin work, then come the next recession the UK will really be in the ****.

[Biker Biggles]

Where thres a will theres a way.The Germans,French and even Italians still build full size ships (like Queen Mary 2)and we could too.We just dont have the will required to keep big manufacturing here.And before anyone says its the unions fault,the Germans have very powerful unions and good standards of living so it is something else that stops the UK competing.If the Germans can get it right so should we.

[Dicky Ticker]

In my opinion it is the government trying to do everything on the cheap but it will bite them on the bum.Take away the industry to save cash with the right hand but have to pay out with the left hand. This country has some of the best design engineers and skills in the world so why not utilise them and feather our own country instead of other countries. Not just ships but trains,planes and the auto industry. The only people who seem to benefit from all this are the politicians them selves, NOT the common man

[Spank86]

So, is todays announcements of the closure of the Portsmouth dockyard and a 20 year lifeline to the Clyde, cynical politics playing with the lives of hard working individuals. Or good business.

Establish a single centre of excellence and exploit it. But what happens if those north of the border still wave two finger as us English?
both.

assuming the scots don't vote for independence. If they do it'll be a right bugger but if they don't it's better to lose jobs in the traditionally job rich south than the poorer Scotland and land values in pompey will be higher when they sell it off.

That's assuming job losses and closure are necessary.

[timwilky]

British ship building is dead and gone m8. better and cheaper ships are being built in such places as China so weather it be in Govan or Portsmouth makes no odds as in 20 or so years time there will be no ships built in the UK. don't blame the Scottish for something that Westminster has done.

what your trying to say is that you resent the fact that Govan have got the jobs and Portsmouth haven't?

and if your on about Scotland maybe getting independence then who cares as all that will change is revenue raised in Scotland will stay in Scotland and Scotland will be in control of their own finances. there will be no 'split' and everything will stay the same.

Scotland would still have to pay back it's share per head of the deficit, pay towards the British army etc.etc.

it's amazing the rumours going about south of the border and some of them are bloody hilarious.

the Scottish will vote how they vote and to tell the truth with all the lies and rumours floating about i very very much doubt that Scotland will get independence.

so Tim do you as an Englishman resent the fact that Govan has got contracts to build ships and Portsmouth hasn't and if so why?

Actually I have no gripe about which one went, I accept companies need to rationalise. But, strategic decisions like this also have a political dimension.

Is it a jobs bribe to the Clyde?
Is it a jobs threat to stay with the union?

To be honest, dammed if you do, dammed if you dont.

[ClunkintheUK]

Where thres a will theres a way.The Germans,French and even Italians still build full size ships (like Queen Mary 2)and we could too.We just dont have the will required to keep big manufacturing here.And before anyone says its the unions fault,the Germans have very powerful unions and good standards of living so it is something else that stops the UK competing.If the Germans can get it right so should we.

Its not the power or not of the unions that makes them potentially ruinous. In fact powerful good unions are fully necessary. The rabble rousers living fat of the public purse and extorted unions fees are not an example of this.

The German unions worked with management to create an industrial powerhouse with modern and 100% up to date manufacturing facilities. They recognised that this would mean certain jobs were lost to machines but that they would overall gain/retain more jobs.

They don't compete with china on pure volume, but quality of build and quality of product. You just need to look at the German cars made in different factories.

But they need to be powerful, particularly in things like shipbuilding, to stop the knee jerk reaction of governments going for cheaper in the short term products from abroad.

Don't mistake fat wasters like Bob Crow for real unions.

[ClunkintheUK]

Ship building, aswell as most industries will shut up from the south first and work it's way up the British Isles as the cost of living is so ridiculous down here (bigger wages). We're just about to buy a house, the prices are insane compared to most other places in the UK and the house market is supposed to be at a low. I don't think people really understand how different the cost of living really is across the country.


Yes I am very aware of the insane living costs in comparison to the rest of the country. Last time I was looking for a room in a flat to rent I was looking at 800 a month for just a room an hour from my work.

I recently calculated how much a couple in London would need to earn to be able to own their own place, to bring up two children, one family holiday a year and actually save a little bit for retirement. It came in at around £120k obviously this changes slightly depending on certain lifestyle choices, but it is a ball park figure. This is without childcare costs, so its probably one bread winner and a smaller additional income. And no this does not include a private education. If you want that, you can double the required income.

[Spank86]

Don't mistake fat wasters like Bob Crow for real unions.
Bob crow and our unions were created by our government and our businessmen.

Germany had the benefit of a post-war fresh start but it's still the corporations and government that are to blame for our poor state of union affairs.


Is it a jobs bribe to the Clyde?
Is it a jobs threat to stay with the union?

To be honest, dammed if you do, dammed if you dont.
I suspect whatever the political dimension it's sound business decision.

I would prefer it to have happened after the independence vote but I think that's a foregone conclusion anyway. They'd have done better to make it a british nation-wide vote if they really wanted a chance at winning.

[TamSV]

After all. A country that has built its reputation for the past 500 years as a naval power having to buy its ships from a foreign country won't cast much clout. I can hardly see the investment staying in place!


That seems to be the explicit threat from the Scottish Independence "No" campaigners although it loses some effect when they're saying, in essence, "Scottish shipbuilding is only safe in the hands of a UK Tory government". Roll that sentence around for a while. :p

Of course, letting a foreign country build ships for your Navy is unthinkable. I mean, what would be next? It would be like letting large parts of your critical national infrastructure fall into foreign hands including shady investors with links to dodgy foreign governments. Pretty soon you'd be letting the French and Chinese build your nuclear power plants. Ridiculous.

No, wait.....

[Spank86]

I think that's very different Tam.

For a start that national infrastructure remains IN the UK, accessible in a time of war, ships in the middle of being built in another country may not.

So what if the company that owns the power plant is French, all the workers live here and if we went to war with France for whatever reason that company would be SOL and we'd have a free power plant.

[TamSV]

If you think the Government considers national security in any of these decisions, then read this (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/205680/ISC-Report-Foreign-Investment-in-the-Critical-National-Infrastructure.pdf).

[Spank86]

If you think the Government considers national security in any of these decisions, then read this (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/205680/ISC-Report-Foreign-Investment-in-the-Critical-National-Infrastructure.pdf).
With regard to the huawei VDSL modems (not the 21cn stuff).... The government didn't get asked.

Its also worth noting (since you're worrried about those uber smart chinese hackers) that the 21CN does not work and hasn't moved any closer to working since it was unveiled The chinese can't make it work and Ericsson who reckoned they could have declined to since BT went with the "budget" option instead of theirs in the first place. (we were also told by both the police and the army that they weren't having it anywhere near their phone lines as the system wasn't secure whoever made it)


We're also not putting many Huawei modems in anymore since they don't tend to last a year. The ECI ones are much better so you can feel free to slate the Chinese on the internet but go easy on the Jews okay?

[TamSV]

The government didn't get asked.

Quite. All that stuff, while vital to the nation, is left entirely to private enterprise with a profit motive and we pick up the tab.

If none of that stuff matters then why care only about where your ships are built and leave everything else up for grabs?

I'm not terribly worried about the impending war with France. I just wonder why defence procurement is sacrosanct when it seems nothing else is.

[Spank86]

I'm not terribly worried about the impending war with France. I just wonder why defence procurement is sacrosanct when it seems nothing else is.
because it's more important that a foreign country can't sabotage our warships than it is that they can't learn what Mrs Miggins is having for dinner.

Or rather if we go to war there's a possibility we are going to want MORE warships during the war.

Plus how are you going to get electronic components NOT from china? are there any routers that don't say made in china on the back?

I'm not sure they'd make it any more difficult to hack the network if they were Swedish.

[TamSV]

That's a pretty serious war you're planning for. :)

If WW3 doesn't break out, I think that efficient infrastructure and affordable energy would be pretty useful right now, and certainly in the national interest, but govt isn't terribly interested in that.

Plus how are you going to get electronic components NOT from china?

The same way you get ships that aren't built in Korea. :)

[Spank86]

That's a pretty serious war you're planning for. :)


That's the only sort worth having :p


The same way you get ships that aren't built in Korea. :)
by not losing the industry in the first place

Building it back up is far harder.

[ClunkintheUK]

Of course, letting a foreign country build ships for your Navy is unthinkable. I mean, what would be next?

Most Royal Navy ships in the Napoleonic wars were built by the French. We just took them from them. Though I don't think that is much of an option these days

[punyXpress]

Pretty soon you'd be letting the French and Chinese build your nuclear power plants. Ridiculous.

No, wait.....

Never mind the French & the Chinese turning the power off.
If we REALLY pi$$es them off they would just turn it on to 'turboboost@ & cook the lot of us. :(

[maviczap]

In the unlikely event of war breaking out, bet even so any foreign power would now be able to take out our one location for ship repair. That's what happened at Pearl Harbour

We have no merchant fleet to call upon in the event of another Falklands type event, shareholders have seen to that, neither do we have the resource in the navy now, to deploy down there, should the Argies kick off again.

Maybe we should be like some of the other countries who don't have ship building facilities and buy 2nd hand military hardware.