PQ17 - Arctic convey TV prog

[maviczap]

From the trailers it should be an interesting watch

[EssexDave]

And indeed it was. Nice find - cheers!

[Specialone]

Yeah I watched it mav, very good :)

James may is on tonight, building a meccano motorbike.

[maviczap]

Yep, looking foward to that

[Ch00]

I just watched it. It was nice to see JC being serious for a change and not prating about.

Nice program based on terrible events, the workers let down by the management.

[punyXpress]

I just watched it. It was nice to see JC being serious for a change and not prating about.

Nice program based on terrible events, the workers let down by the management.

Google " Jeremy Clarkson VC programme " if anything it's even better - with a sting in the tail.

[Wideboy]

that was a good program

[ClunkintheUK]

Yeah, good program. Though Clarkson pratting about is usually pretty funny, it was good seeing a really good documentary from him. It does show he is a very good presenter.

[The Basket]

A few points as Clarkson was wrong again.
Scattering was a procedure adopted by the RN when facing superior surface vessels.
Tirpitz had sailed and was planning attack.

Admiral Raeder got cold feet and turned Tirpitz, Hipper and Scheer around.
The decision to remove the escort was disastrously wrong and Tirpitz was not indestructible as the Bismarck had proved.

To leave a convoy to a U-boat wolfpack was basically murder.

[ClunkintheUK]

TB. Was scatter adopted by the Merchant marine too? Or was it just a RN maneuver?

Would the decision to scatter be taken by the admiralty, or by the commanders on the water?

[The Basket]

Convoy to scatter.
good example is HX84 in November 1940 in Atlantic when attacked by Admiral Scheer. Scattering saved an unguarded convoy.
Decision to scatter PQ17 was Admiralty HX84 would have been probably Captain Fegen VC who led a suicidal charge against the Scheer in HMS Jervis Bay.

[punyXpress]

The ( only? ) real hero on our side was the captain of the armed trawler who took several cargo ships under his wing and, complete with pleasure boat licence and a slightly-better-than-school atlas saved most of them!

[Mr Speirs]

The decision to remove the escort was disastrously wrong and Tirpitz was not indestructible as the Bismarck had proved.


Whilst the Tirpitz wasn't indestrucable (I'm not even sure Clarkson does make this claim) I think the point was that the ships that were protecting the convoy didn't have the weaponry to take the Tirpitz let alone the supporting german surface ships and then still protect the convoy from air attack, surface attack and U-Boat attack.

It took 3 specialist operations involving submarines and bombing raids using 5t Tall Boy bombs to eventually sink the Tirpitz.

In relation to the Bismark that was totally different when Bismark was alone being pursued by more ships (including 2 aircraft carriers with torpedo bombers) than were protecting PQ17 which had better weapons, nobody to protect and no U-Boats operating in the area.

One of the ships engaged with the Bismark also had 16 inch guns yet it couldn't sink the Bismark even from point blank range.
The Bismark was scuttled by its own crew and then finally sunk by Torpedos.

The escort of PQ17 didn't have the resources to deal with Tirpitz.

[The Basket]

HMS Jervis Bay didnt have the weaponry to take on the Admiral Scheer.
HMS Glowworm didnt have the weaponary to take on Admiral Hipper.
HMS Rawalpindi didnt have the weaponary take on Scharnhorst.
The naval crews were ordered to disengage. The crews would have done torpedo attacks.

[Mr Speirs]

Who are you making the point against? Clarkson or the Admiralty? If it's the latter then I misunderstood your original post.

I thought you were saying that Clarkson had got certain things wrong. I was saying that he hadn't actually said the Tirpitz was indestructible he said the admiralty had decided that Tirpitz was too much threat to risk the sinking of their ships for.

I also interpreted your point that the Tirpitz was just as equally sinkable as the Bismark as an injustice considering the circumstances.

[The Basket]

The Clarkson programme was wrong. The Tirpitz was going to attack so the intelligence was right.
Scattering the convoy is normal when facing a surface naval attack. So again normal.
The issue is withdrawal of the escort. This should not have happened even If the Tirpitz was attacking. If the escort was ordered to stay and a captain on his own bat decided to withdrawal then he would be in serious trouble.

[ClunkintheUK]

He did say that the escort had received no orders after the scatter order. How would the escort stay with a convoy that has scattered?

Also where is your knowledge coming from. I am not disputing it in any way, just interested in it. I hadn't even heard of the northern convoys until this program.

[The Basket]

Big fan of Naval history.

The convoy scatters and ships attack the raiders..
or the convoy doesnt scatter and the escort stays with it.
Or the convoy goes north and the escort catch up after the action.

When Admiral Scheer attacked HX84, she sank only 5 ships because convoy scattered and Kranke knew a Royal Navy battleship could be minutes away. So he sank what he could and ran.

A German surface raider...even the Tirpitz...was the hunted and didnt hang about for long.
The Tirpitz could be easily torpedoed by destroyer, sub or aircraft.

[ClunkintheUK]

Thanks TB.

I didn't really have any knowledge of modern naval history. I think I only had a hazy notion that there was an arctic convoy before this. Odd considering the only history I did in secondary school was WW2.

Interesting about even the Tirpitz being the hunted. I know vaguely about the Bismark, and it took quite an operation to sink that, iirc.

[daveangel]

The Bismark was damaged first by a torpedo hit from a Swordfish which hit and jammed the rudders which stopped it running for France. When Bismark and the Hood were discovered in 2001 they investigated to see if it was the torpedos or scuttling that sank Bismark and it seemed it was 50/50. It was then that all navies realised a huge, expensive warship could be sunk by one, small, cheap to make aircraft.

All in all, the ocasional error aside a great programme, whereas Clarkson is usually messing around on Top Gear he is a strong supporter for the military forces, past and present behind the scenes.

[Mr Speirs]

The bismark was first damaged in a battle from a salvo from HMS Price of Wales. It pierced a hole in the hull which let water in. This meant the top speed was slightly reduced and meant it couldn't out run the British ships. The British Ships however could only match the top speed.

[yorkie_chris]

Thanks for the heads up. Interesting viewing. Seeing bomb and torpedo damage on a shipwreck is pretty sobering, 3/8" plate bent like paper and girders tied in knots.

[The Basket]

A Fairey Swordfish was so slow that even a SV would give it trouble.
But it still caught and torpedoed the Bismarck.
Shows that in the age of air power, even the mighty battleship is prey to an antiquated dog slow biplane.
Royal navy lost 5 battleships/battlecruisers. 2 to air attack, 2 to subs and only the Hood to traditional ship v ship. Age of the Tirpitz was over. Even the Yamato and Mushasi which made the Tirpitz look like a row boat were sunk by air power.