Buying a CAT D vehicle

[stuR]

Anyone have any good/bad experience buying a CAT D car or bike? Im currently looking at cars to buy in a few months but have just seen one i really like however it is CAT D. The incident damage was a front wing which was replaced in july 2013. It was then moted in october 2013. From pics it looks all good. Thoughts?

[otaylor38]

What car is it? Age? Price?

If you can live with the fact it was a cat d you can get some real bargains. It takes hardly anything to write off a car thats a few years old. A cat d wont be structural, just cosmetic id of thought.

You can get some real cheap bargains

[stuR]

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201402041552949/sort/default/usedcars/transmission/manual/page/1/quantity-of-doors/2/maximum-mileage/up_to_80000_miles/maximum-age/up_to_10_years_old/price-to/4000/postcode/rg63bj/radius/50/make/bmw/model/3_series/onesearchad/used?logcode=p
See above. The price looks ever so slightly less than average, but the mileage is less than average too.

[Tomor]

My bmw is a Cat D. Phoned insurance and they don't have anywhere to record it. As long as the repair was done by reputable garage (BMW in my case as it was an ex police car) then I don't see a problem personally.

[stuR]

What car have you got Tom? Yeah from reading up on it it seems fine, insurance seems the same too. Selling on price wouldnt bother me as i would plan on keeping it a decent length of time. If it all seems straight it seems silly to disregard something that you like..

[otaylor38]

Looks like a nice car on the pics.

Im not up on bmw used prices so i dont really know how cheap it is, but the cat d should defo out the price down by quite a large amount.

Id want to see any paperwork regarding the repair if possible and then id be taking a good look at the car for colour matching and signs of a dodgey respray, or similar things.

It largely depends on how you feel about it. If you happy in your own mind having a cat d car, for a good price, and everything else adds up, id say go for it mate

[Tomor]

Got a 118d

[tj2]

My car is cat D, had no repairs other than a few cable ties to hold the undertray together and a bit of a polish on some scratches.. oh and the air con don't work.
Apparently £2700 worth of paint and other cosmetic damage caused by an errant exploding truck tyre on the M6
Fantastic little car, had it for 3 years now and literally not cost me a penny!!


FWIW

[yorkie_chris]

If they're cat C you need to get them VIC checked, no real idea what this entails but don't think it's actually anything to do with roadworthiness.

[atassiedevil]

VIC check is to ensure that it actually IS that vehicle. They visually inspect to ensure VIN numbers match the original vehicle, and that nothing has been tampered with and that it's not a cut and shut.

[Wideboy]

I say that was over priced for a 2004 anyway, especial for a previous cat d. You'd be looking at sub 3500 for a straight one. Ignoring the interior and optional extras its still just a 318.

[Fallout]

Just take into account resale value. Nobody wants an insurance write off. 90% of people will walk on by so resale is difficult. It might be a great example now it's repaired, but there's no point you saving yourself a grand because it's a CatD then losing 2 grand when you try and sell. Buy it for the right price!

[Wideboy]

There's a few things you need to consider when buying this car (or any car for that matter)

Resale price: you've already said this doesn't bother you so ignore it.

Insurance value: now lets say for instance this car isn't a cat d and pay over value for it, you fall in love with it (who wouldn't its a sexy e46) and it becomes your pride and joy. You've bought it from saved money/loan/parents or what ever. A month down the line you're happily on your way to work and some ****tard goes up the back of you and destroys the thing. Now you have to deal with insurance. They will look at the book value of the car and make you an offer less than book price and you argue them up to a sensible price. But you have the added problem of it being registered as a cat d, although there's absolutely nothing wrong with it and its like new they will still look at it being worth less than what a straight version would get you. I've never had to go through this for a cat whatever but I would imagine you'd lose alot.

Market prices don't reflect book value and this is mostly due to people valuing their cars on what is going on autotrader in their area or what a dealer has it up for. For example, last spring I bought a van. Locally on my budget I was looking at oldish vans with 100k on the clock, I had to go 120 miles away to find a van priced at what reflected the book value. I ended up with a van with only 52k on the clock and I've spent about 50 quid on it since I've owned it but looking it its current value in this area I could make a couple hundred on it.

I have looked at and would buy cat d's and c's but I'd buy them damaged not fixed so I'd get better value and the satisfaction of knowing its been repaired properly.

[Wideboy]

And in my personal opinion that price doesn't reflect that its a cat d.

[otaylor38]

I have thought of the resale value, hadnt thought of the insurance value problem. Cheers wideboy. Educating haha.

Id want that car very cheap if it was me, or id just buy another one. Theres plenty of 318's about

[Wideboy]

or id just buy another one. Theres plenty of 318's about

That would be what I'd do. Buying a vehicle with your head and not your heart is a difficult thing to do.

[ClunkintheUK]

I got my Tiger as a Cat D. it had 7k on the clock. apparently the crash happened while the original owner was on his way home from the 7k service. I found out what had caused the write off (i.e. the damage). This was backed up by independent research on the internet saying that this type of write off was common on Tigers was even mentioned as a weak point in the release reviews in the mags. I saw the repair and was happy with it. I also just spoke to the guy and decided I trusted him. He was knowledgeable about this bike and bikes in general. Gave reasonable answers to reasonable questions.

At this time Tiger 800 with no bits were going for about 5700-6500 for an 11 plate (like mine) with the 5700 ones usually having 15-20k on the clock. This had hand guards, and a givi plate, which is about 300 to add, and added about 150 on resale value it seemed. I got it for 4150. I would probably have paid 4600/4700, but I think he was desperate and other had been put off the price was so low.

[yorkie_chris]

Bear in mind insurance catted cars and bikes are different in many ways.

[Doinitmyway]

VIC check is to ensure that it actually IS that vehicle. They visually inspect to ensure VIN numbers match the original vehicle, and that nothing has been tampered with and that it's not a cut and shut.



When I was last buying from salvage auctions motorbikes didn't have to be VIC checked to get a logbook. You could just straight apply and pay......


Cat D cars don't need to be VIC checked either.


I bought a nice Laguna RTi S that someone had stuck in a fen in Cambridgeshire that was cat D for about £250.

[atassiedevil]

Cat C and above generally do. D is cosmetic damage, C includes damage to the chassis, which some would just use a ringer on the same plate to get past, hence the need for inspection.

[yorkie_chris]

When I was last buying from salvage auctions motorbikes didn't have to be VIC checked to get a logbook. You could just straight apply and pay......


Bikes are different :)

[stuR]

Cheers all for the helpful responses. Ill have a gander and see what deal can be struck if the car looks good...

[rowdy]

I haven't looked at the ad, but for peace of mind, if I was buying a cat whatever, I would ask the seller for a geometry check, to see if it was straight.
Of course, being a cat d cosmetic only it should be ok but you never know.

As for insurance, there are some you can take out, like gap insurance, but I don't know if they are relevant for cat d vehicles.
For instance, my parents bought a couple of month old focus for 11k.
They paid for the car outright, but took out insurance on it, which cost them 3 or 4 hundred quid, which means if it gets totalled anytime within 3 years they get 11k back for it, and not market value.

[Lozzo]

I'll just settle a few misunderstandings here, because my job is dealing with ABI classifications (Categories for those who call them that). I work for the largest remarketers of salvage vehicles in the world, every day I check hundreds of vehicle details and amongst other things I ensure that the category is right for the vehicle/damage/PAV before I authorise them to go to auction. I have to argue classifications with insurance company engineers all the time because I think they might have got it wrong, which they frequently do.

Firstly, every vehicle that an insurance company disposes of as a total loss, regardless of the seriousness of the damage is given a category. Total loss means the insurance company paid out and retained the vehicle, it does not mean it was smashed to bits. Stolen recovered vehicles, mechanically damaged and flooded vehicles are also given category classifications. Sometimes these vehicles have little or no damage, but mostly they do.

Cat D is a vehicle (bike or car or whatever, no difference) that has damage that would cost less than the PAV (pre-Accident Value) to repair, but which the insurance company has decided not to repair. Their decision can be for any reason - in the case of high value cars like Ferraris, Bentleys etc it's because the insured will never accept their vehicle back as repaired and for as long as the insurance company are arguing over it, the insured is sitting in a hire car costing upwards of £500 a day - it is easier and cheaper for the insurance company to get the claim settled and cut their losses by selling the damaged car asap. For lower value vehicles like cheap cars, it's just not worth the aggravation of doing £600 worth of repairs to a £700 car, so they pay out and cut their losses by selling the car on for someone else to repair. Sometimes the owner will just hand the car or bike over to a claims company and never see it again, and then it gets sold on.

I've seen cars and bikes with minor scratches that are Cat D, I've also seen vehicles that have high PAVs with very serious damage that requires a bodyshell swap given Cat D. It all depends on the Pre-Accident Value.

Cat D bikes and cars do not need a VIC check before being put back on the road.

Cat C - a vehicle (bike or car or whatever) that has damage that would cost more than 100% of the PAV. The V5 for Cat C vehicles is returned to DVLA and held by them until the vehicle is ready to go back on the road or is scrapped. Basically, the lower the PAV of the vehicle, the higher the chance of that vehicle getting a Cat C. Old motors like 1996 Peugeot 406s with a dent in a door or wing can easily be given Cat C. they are perfectly fine to drive but not the prettiest. On the flip side I've seen some real shockers given the same classification. Generally, as long as the vehicle is worth repairing and putting back on the road, then it goes Cat C if the repair costs exceed
100% of the PAV.

Cat C vehicles will need to have a VIC check by VOSA before the V5 document will be reissued by DVLA. thois applies to cars and bikes

Cat B - has to be broken for spares and the frame or bodyshell destoyed and VIN tags destroyed at the same time, V5 returned to DVLA as scrapped. Everything else except seat belts, airbags etc can be sold for spares. These vehicles usually have serious damage that makes them not worthwhile or safe once repaired. Usually cars that have caved in roofs or bent floors/chassis rails for which a bodyshell is not available from the manufacturer, or lower value bikes with bent frames etc. Cat B is given to a lot of vehicles when we think the damaged car may be fraudulently used to change a vehicle's identity, ie ringing. We are very aware that not all repairers of damaged vehicles are honest, so if we think that a vehicle is trashed beyond repair, but the identity may be swapped onto a stolen one then we will cat B it to make sure that doesn't happen. Cat B vehicles cannot normally be bought by the public, they have to be sold only to certain licenced vehicle breakers who will send back VIN tags to us for disposal and will ensure the frame or bodyshell is crushed.

Cat A - Burn-outs and severely damaged cars that have little or no resaleable parts left and vehicles in which there has been a fatality. These get crushed as is and no parts are removed. VIN tags are removed and destroyed, V5 goes to DVLA as scrapped. The trade can't even buy these, we dispose of them ourself.

That is it. It's not Cat D is cosmetic, Cat C is structural etc, it all depends on repair costs against the pre-accident value. Two identical vehicles aged two years apart with exactly the same damage can be Cat C and Cat D purely because one was worth less than the other at the time of the accident.

Bear in mind that many of these vehicles will come with no service history, some have no keys, some have mechanical damage that you can't know about until you've spent a fortune sorting other stuff to get them roadworthy. There are also vehicles like the 2011 R1 I saw the other day that had a tiny dent in the frame from where a handlebar had bent into it as it fell and minor cosmetic damage to the bodywork that £300 would have fixed, it was a Cat C only because the straight but very lightly damaged frame is so expensive to buy new and then there's the cost of stripping the bike down and rebuilding onto a new frame. All it really needed was a new handlebar, and indicator and some paintwork, the footrest wasn't even damaged. It's a minefield and not one I would like to step into without the knowledge I have.


Hope this helps

[Lozzo]

One other thing - Insurance values.

Like Wideboy said, and vehicle that's already got a Cat C or D against it is worthless in the eyes of an insurance company. If that vehicle gets damaged again it almost certainly goes Cat B and the payout is severely reduced because of its history; these vehicles don't even hit bottom trade values, yet they could have been perfectly good vehicles once repaired. When an insurance company calls a vehicle a total loss, you shouldn't buy it unless you fully understand this and understand that a simple dent in a wing could mean that car going to a breakers and you getting very little money back for it. You won't be able to argue it either, all engineers who value vehicles are trained to think the same way and they will not enter into any negotiation on values of previously total loss vehicles, their word is final and I can't blame them for it.

[ClunkintheUK]

Given that a ding would write off a previous total loss, would you insure it fully comp if you bought one Lozzo. I mean you are not gonna claim for your own vehicle unless its a total wreck as it would lose more in claiming and buying a new one.

[Red ones]

From what Lozzo said that seems illogical.
If insurance value the vehicle very lowly then paying any more for it is overvaluing. Any excess on the vehicle will be a big proportion of the total value of the machine, hence small ding equals write off.

There are 4 scenarios:
Fault accident, TPFT. You pay the excess and bike written off
Non fault & TPFT. You don't pay excess and bike written off.
Fault & Comp. You pay excess and bike written off.
Non fault & Comp. You don't pay excess and bike written off.

Whatever happens, the bike is a write off. That only leaves the excess to consider, and that is defined by the fault/non-fault argument. So only have an accident with another, insured, vehicle and get their details, and make sure they are predominantly at fault. Don't drop the bike, don't let someone knock it over in a parking lot.
You are more likely to be at fault than not. Therefore lower the financial risk and pay as little premium as possible covering only TPFT.

[ClunkintheUK]

Yeah, that was basically what I was thinking. Sorry not always great at getting it down on paper/screen.

You'll never get the value it is to get something similar to put back on the road, and won;t report a little ding, as you want to keep the bike/car.

[Mr wilson]

Quality! Thanks Lozzo, I love getting information like this from people who actually know what they're talking about. I'll never remember any of it and constantly mis-quote you for ever, but it makes me feel good thinking I know all about it now.

Cheers

Shug

[Lozzo]

Whether you insure fully comp or not is up to you. It all depends on the value and how much you are prepared to lose. If you trash the car through you own fault are you wealthy enough to lose the total value of it as decided by an insurance engineer? That car could still be worth 4 or 5 grand in their eyes, even if a straight unrecorded one is valued at 10 grand.

One thing I would say, avoid anything with a Q plate, regardless of whether you know its history or not. You'll have trouble insuring it as few companies will insure them and you'll most likely only get third party only cover. I recently bought a 1988 Yamaha TDR250 on a Q plate and its value is £750 maximum. If it gets damaged by a third party it's going to a breakers or I'll never be able to insure it again with a Q plate and a Cat D or C against it. It's easier and cheaper for me to buy a frame with V5 and swap all the bits onto that frame, because for £250 outlay and a couple of day's work I can then insure it fully comp and its value rises to over £2500 purely because it has an E registration not a Q.

[yorkie_chris]

Cat C vehicles will need to have a VIC check by VOSA before the V5 document will be reissued by DVLA. thois applies to cars and bikes


Has this changed recently then? I've had half a dozen or so cat C bikes and never seen the inside of a VOSA station.

[stuR]

When you get an online insurance quote, will the cat d be factored in on their price or does the quote assume a non catergory car??

[Lozzo]

No, because no matter what the history of your vehicle, it's still what it is and you are still who you are... at that point. It's only when you want to make a claim that it becomes worthless, if you see what I mean ;-)

[Lozzo]

Has this changed recently then? I've had half a dozen or so cat C bikes and never seen the inside of a VOSA station.
Apparently so, so I was told at work; the ABI classifications and returning of of Cat C vehicles to the road has undergone a small shake up recently.

[Lozzo]

After a good search around on the net, it appears my colleagues at work were wrong and bikes still don't need a VIC if you want to put a Cat C back on the road.

A little light reading for you:

https://www.abi.org.uk/~/media/Files/Documents/Publications/Public/Migrated/Motor/Code%20of%20practice%20for%20disposal%20of%20motor %20vehicle%20salvage.ashx

[Wideboy]

No, because no matter what the history of your vehicle, it's still what it is and you are still who you are... at that point. It's only when you want to make a claim that it becomes worthless, if you see what I mean ;-)

So basically you're paying the same money to insure the car as you would any other but it becomes worthless when you need to claim for it?

[Lozzo]

Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger boy.

I don't work for any insurance company, I just help them dispose of total loss vehicles.

[Wideboy]

I'm genuinely interested. To me that's more of a reason to buy one that still trashed.

[stuR]

So i dont need to inform the insurance company when i take out the policy? Im just making sure so i dont end up getting stung for extra when ive already bought the car (if i do)

[Tomor]

I told my insurance and he said that he would note it on the policy but there was no specific place to put it in.

[stuR]

For anyone interested i ended up buying the beemer i posted earlier, got it for £2950. Needs a bit of work on the front end on bearings and or a ball joint maybe but otherwise seems pretty good...