Training "can be dangerous"

[ChrisCurvyS]

Just seen this poppycock on visordown -

http://www.visordown.com/features/discuss-training-can-be-dangerous/24562.html

I know there's a couple of pilots on here who will be able to give an informed opinion. However, I would have said that flying and motorcycling are very similar in that you can use constant training and practice to make something which is by nature very dangerous actually quite safe.

And I'm sure flying a fighter jet down a canyon is still pretty thrilling, even if you are following a set route prescribed by the Man.:D

[Sid Squid]

It's not poppycock, the one obvious failing of bike training is that you must not fill rider's heads with specifics, but educate them to understand the process, which leads them to make decisions for themselves, not pick a response to a circumstance from a box, which can at best be an approximation. That said I wouldn't tell anyone not to take training, but it must always be understood that however 'good' the training is, it has limitations, it cannot make one a good rider by teaching that in "X" situation, "Y" response is the right one, but must attempt to give the understanding that leads riders to make decisions for themselves. Too many riders have training that does the first, but does not do the second, is that dangerous? I don't think that's ever how I would describe it, but it certainly leaves much to be desired.

[Red Herring]

He has a valid point, but training should be about raising awareness and helping riders think for themselves. Seem to remember we had this discussion recently here:

http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=207517&page=2

[ChrisCurvyS]

It's not poppycock, the one obvious failing of bike training is that you must not fill rider's heads with specifics, but educate them to understand the process, which leads them to make decisions for themselves, not pick a response to a circumstance from a box, which can at best be an approximation. That said I wouldn't tell anyone not to take training, but it must always be understood that however 'good' the training is, it has limitations, it cannot make one a good rider by teaching that in "X" situation, "Y" response is the right one, but must attempt to give the understanding that leads riders to make decisions for themselves. Too many riders have training that does the first, but does not do the second, is that dangerous? I don't think that's ever how I would describe it, but it certainly leaves much to be desired.
Totally agree with you Sid but I've never got the impression that training does fill riders' heads with binary responses to different scenarios.
Quite the contrary - when I did my rospa training my instructor was quite clear that there aren't always black and white answers to each scenario.
What I had more issue with was the author's idea that riding is somehow different to anything else, and training is an artificial thing to do. It's not - it's just the passing on of experience essentially.

[Bluefish]

Approaching a corner slow down, on a straight open her up, sorry have I missed something?

[Red Herring]

.... sorry have I missed something?

Yes, and hopefully you shall continue to do so! :)

[Spank86]

However, I would have said that flying and motorcycling are very similar in that you can use constant training and practice to make something which is by nature very dangerous actually quite safe.

I "fly" by the seat of my pants. The one time they took me further into trouble they took me all the way back out the other side with a wave and no damage.

[Niall_farley]

I believe it's simply a case of Volenti non fit enjuria.

You know the risks of riding a bike and put yourself in the dangers involved.

You yourself know you could take the car but you take the bike so whatever the dangerous occurrence the result is likely to be much worst than if you took the car

Although I agree training helps a lot and without it there would be a lot more accidents

However

I believe experience and self taught near miss' are what teach a rider there own "best" way to avoid a situation or make the outcome less disastrous for themselfs

I say this from the point of view of a new rider the fact I'm still in this learning curve I'm still figuring out what works and what doesn't.

[Red Herring]

I believe experience and self taught near miss' are what teach a rider there own "best" way to avoid a situation or make the outcome less disastrous for themselfs

I say this from the point of view of a new rider the fact I'm still in this learning curve I'm still figuring out what works and what doesn't.


I can only repeat my advice that it is far cheaper and less painful to learn from the mistakes of others than to make them all yourself, although I accept that I make this statement from a position of ignorance having never actually been off on the road myself..... (That's blown it, best leave the bike in the garage today....) Seriously though, there is a good message in that article in that he is right you should not be "taught" set moves for set circumstances, but rather you should learn how to see circumstances developing and anticipate the possible consequences so that you can take the course of your choosing. In other words have a crash because you anticipated it and decided to take the chance rather than letting someone else make the decision for you!

[CharleyFarley]

Jumping on the SV1000, I had 'problems' at slow speed.....(junctions)..... running wide at lefts, 'threepenny bit' ing it turning right. Blamed the steering damper & 'weight forward' riding position. (only ever had 'upright' bikes/flats) So......I went to a ex police motorcyclist instructor. He put my slow speed issues right in 10mins (was trying to steer/weight on bars) So.....into town n country.....MUCH more confident in town, really got on 'making progress' on the B roads (85/90mph) and A roads, he was more than happy with my bike control/awareness/positioning etc.
Tho I was 'confident' before hand, its reassuring to know that I'm 'doing things right'.........
So.........even with 35yrs experience on 2 wheels.......training has proved "useful".........and its reassuring that 'newby' Niall has been trained by 'the best' of bike riders......


"Gas it w###a".........

[Dicky Ticker]

I know it is a strange comparison to make but there are similarities between driving an artic and riding a motorbike. Braking--losing the front or back end, Approach to corners, brake before and gentle power through. observation all round, thinking ahead,being in the right gear---just to mention a few. Quite similar handling characteristics.
At least most people see and artic approaching.

[CharleyFarley]

I know it is a strange comparison to make but there are similarities between driving an artic and riding a motorbike. Braking--losing the front or back end, Approach to corners, brake before and gentle power through. observation all round, thinking ahead,being in the right gear---just to mention a few. Quite similar handling characteristics.
At least most people see and artic approaching.


Agree 100%..........(without blowing my own trumpet....) ALL road users should be made to drive Artic's.....preferably with a half full De-mount (liquid) on the back!!!!
I've always maintained that if ya can drive that 'smoothly' then ya can drive anything on the road!!! Very strange experience.........if ya stop 'normally'.....2 seconds later ya get a huge 'kick in the back' as if ya been rear ended n the whole lot jumps forward 3ft!!!!


"Gas it w###a".........

[embee]

Just one of the aspects of safe riding and driving which doesn't usually get mentioned specifically is "imagination". Yes that's what's behind the principles of positioning in order to extend your range of vision round corners for example, but why are you doing it? It's to give yourself more time to react to what might be round the corner. What might be round the corner? Use your imagination.

What if?

[Sid Squid]

Stuff
Very good point.

[nikon70]

Every ride is a lesson...
A gift if you will.
Treat it as such!

[Essex of Essex]

We train people to a basic set of mechanical skills and provide them with a framework to develop the more advanced skills; many will go back and take further training to expedite the gathering of those skills. Others look at falling off as an acceptable way of learning, one of the biggest things I learnt when I took training after many years away from the bike was observation, so keeping me out of most of those "that was close" situations.

My job has me teaching young people to fly Boeing 757 aircraft, it's not jet fighters down valleys but it does require an advancement on the skills they acquired at basic training, nobody would think it acceptable for them to go out and gain those skills without further instruction.

We give them experience of as many abnormal situations as we can, but they will never see everything in training that life can throw at them; however we hope to have given them the ability to think outside the box to resolve the situation whilst the finely honed handling skills allow them to keep control.

Isn't that what we should be aiming at with bike training?

[LankyIanB]

Hmmmmm.... Mr Hargreaves obviously doesn't have much experience of aviation. Air is funny stuff and the fact you can't actually see it doesn't always help. Air moves, a lot..... and not all in the same direction. There's also enough of it so that it has considerable mass and thus energy.

Thanks to this, flying isn't static like driving tends to be. The road from the A31 to my house is pretty predictable. Ignoring snow and ice, it's pretty much always the same. The parked cars might move around a bit and the local children and animals can be a little random, but aside from that it's pretty much the same every time....

You can't say the same about flying an approach, even into a familiar airfield, the wind (that air stuff) can gust or drop. You can have turbulence from ground features (trees, hills, buildings) or from preceeding planes. You never know what you're going to get until you're having to deal with it.... BUT you HAVE to know how to deal with it once it arrives, and the only way to be able to do that is practice. Simulators can help a lot as you can be put in some really nasty situations without the risk of anything worse than embarrasment and dented pride.

If you're in a flying environment without simulators, then you fly with an instructor, part of their job is to put you in "situations" and if you get it wrong, save you (and themselves) from your error. This works pretty well, the instuctors have a vested interest in not letting you crash....

Through experience, you learn to "fly the picture" and move the controls to get the plane doing what you want it to. Or in some cases (see some of the footage with the high winds in recent weeks...) when the plane won't do what you want, get the hell out of there..... it's not an ideal outcome, but it is controlled.

Where bikes are different is that it's very hard to gain the practical experience. I'd love to be able to power slide a bike, lose the front and pick it up of my knee etc, BUT I don't have the cash, pain threshold and ability to be able to make all the errors I need to in order to learn the skill. I'm damn sure you could do a pretty good bike sim if money were no object and it would be a fantastic training tool. You also can't really do a functioning dual controlled bike for training either.

Thanks to these limitations all that you are left with is talking about how to get out of difficult situations. That said, the best thing is not to get in those situations in the first place, which is what we all think we try to do. Every so often we get it wrong and the results vary and have no correlation to the size of the initial error. Sometimes we learn something. Sometimes we don't.....

The bit where the article almost gets it right is over the apportionment of blame. The aviation world is very good at root cause analysis and pinpointing which error(s) the incident grew from. The motoring world is REALLY REALLY bad at this. Blanket blaming of speeding as the cause doesn't help.... but individual responsibility is an alien concept to many these days.... it's never their fault and they'll never learn....

[socommk23]

As a pilot and biker I didnt get past the second paragraph. But ill go back...read it all...then get back to you.

[socommk23]

Ok....read it.

My opinion is

Training for a car licence or bike licence is only proof that you can operate those machines in a safe manner set down by certain rules.
A licence does not make you a "good" driver or rider.

Experience and self learning and good application of experience "can" make you a better driver or rider but not necessarily. That will depend on the individual/attitude/personality.

Being a pilot is no different. You get trained how to operate the aeroplane in a safe manner. And when you can prove you can do that you become licenced. This doesnt make you the best pilot as experience and said application is key.

I have my silver c gliding endorsement. As do alot of the guys from my club. But some have only ever done the short 50k flight needed for the silver badge and nothing more. And now happily do local soaring even with high flight hours. Others have much lower flight hours but more cross country flights and land outs than the oldies. I know who id rather fly xc with.

[Mrs DJ Fridge]

IMHO all drivers should have to learn to ride a push bike, ride a motorbike, drive a car and an HGV, if they had experience in all those disciplines they would be more aware and therefore hopefully better drivers. Both the registered pilots I know and the most reckless car drivers I know, they both believe that they are superior drivers because they can fly. I can not however judge all pilots by the two I know.

[socommk23]

IMHO all drivers should have to learn to ride a push bike, ride a motorbike, drive a car and an HGV, if they had experience in all those disciplines they would be more aware and therefore hopefully better drivers. Both the registered pilots I know and the most reckless car drivers I know, they both believe that they are superior drivers because they can fly. I can not however judge all pilots by the two I know.

Are they power pilots?

[Mrs DJ Fridge]

Are they power pilots?

No, idiots.

[socommk23]

Lol.

[ClunkintheUK]

I've always thought of training as giving you an external perspective (same as sports coaching) but it is up to you to feel and practice what is right/works for you. One thing training does do is give you situations to think on ahead of time, and give make the little differences natural allowing you to react to the unusual as your brain is not filled with "brake point, now ar5e cheek off the seat, now left of centre line, lean in, apex, throttle, etc..."

It also means that in the split second when you know the car hasn't seen you and is pulling out you know instinctively that your options are stand on the brakes, swerve round, throttle on straight through and you can then use the split second to decide which to do, not think what can you do.

On the experience note, and this might be more for the younger looking amongst us who commute through a city, but how often do you hear "I know what I'm doing, I've been driving for 20 years" when they are blatantly and fully in the wrong.