Halal meat

[Fallout]

I saw a article on the news today about Halal meat and the animals not being stunned. Some animal welfare dude said something about wanting to ban all instances of animals being killed without stunning them first on the grounds that it was inhumane. I actually laughed out loud.

I find it tiring listening to this kind of guff. How do you rationalise in your brain better ways to murder an animal? How do you get to a place in your head where you honestly think "stun then throat slit" is better for the animal than just slitting its throat? I'm not arguing that it isn't, I'm arguing that its feckin irrelevent. If you're going to take a herd of animals to get murdered and end their lives (which is the ultimate evil as far as the animal concerned) why make a big deal about the few minutes before it happens?

If you want to be a veggie on animal welfare grounds, then fine. Good for you. You're not murdering animals. You've made a stand. Fair play.

If you want to murder animals but do it in 'a nice way' then shut up.

For the record, I eat meat. Now hit me with your ridiculous animal welfare arguments and ease your murderous conscience by babbling on about nice ways to murder. You know you want to. :D

[davepreston]

ok lets try this one
ever heard of the Geneva convention
now use the same argument in that context
I think you'll find the reason for that agreement holds the same when dealing with your chosen subject

[pookie]

i prefer it when someone else does the murdering... i tried with a fish once but it went a bit floppy and kept staring at me

[Specialone]

Shut up Si, next time I murder you I won't make it painless and see how you like it, halal meat can do one, I want my meat the old fashioned way, no slitty throaty.

[Littlepeahead]

I have bigger issues with how the meat is farmed in the first place than the last ten minutes of the animal's life. Most pigs especially have miserable lives, so I choose not to eat them, we do have pork at home but only free range from pigs that have had happier lives than most. And I do have some idea what I'm talking about as my family are generations of pork farmers, but mum didn't take over the farm.

[DarrenSV650S]

I'm more bothered about how companies bend over backwards to please the minority for fear of racism. That pees me off more than what they are actually doing different. Can't say I'm too fussed about eating halal or normal meat. But replacing ham and bacon with turkey is ridiculous

[Shawthing]

Fear induced steroids and hormones in the meat will be consumed by humans. Common since says this should be minimised.

[Fallout]

ok lets try this one
ever heard of the Geneva convention
now use the same argument in that context
I think you'll find the reason for that agreement holds the same when dealing with your chosen subject

The GC is also ridiculous in its own way, but the parts about the people that are left behind make sense. Rules for murder are ridiculous. Rules about cluster bombs and biological weapons etc are there to minimise the long term affect once the war is over. I don't see the long term affect on the cow race by deciding what happens before they get their throats slit.

[Bibio]

have you ever seen how chickens are mechanically slaughtered... it makes Halal methods humane. i have no problems with how animals are slaughtered, after all how did we used to do it before all these sandal wearing muesli munching arzwipes got involved.

[maviczap]

Don't think Mr Great White shark, Mr & Mrs Tiger would stun us before killing us would they.

I've more issues with what's put in the meat as to how its killed

[TamSV]

I thought most halal meat was stunned first anyway. Don't see the problem personally.

[femaleacid]

Meat is meat.
Either way you kill it, it's still going to taste fudgin' good.

It's like what was said previously, companies are too frightened now about being 'racist'. Take subway for example *sigh*
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2616576/Subway-removes-ham-pork-nearly-200-stores-strong-demand-Muslims-eat-Halal-meat.html

[thulfi]

I'm more bothered about how companies bend over backwards to please the minority for fear of racism. That pees me off more than what they are actually doing different. Can't say I'm too fussed about eating halal or normal meat. But replacing ham and bacon with turkey is ridiculous

But isn't this just capitalism at its finest? Subway is a company. They figure, if we cut out bacon/ham and replace turkey in these x number of stores, we'll make more money because there are y number of muslims in said areas.

Similarly, I doubt halal nando's in certain areas are there to 'please the minority for fear of racism'. It's just good business that equates to more profits.

[thulfi]

And the whole humane things is a joke. All these so called 'veggies' that don't eat meat but eat fish. Aren't most fish simply being suffocated to death? Pretty slow and horrid way to die, even if you are just a fish.

[femaleacid]

And the whole humane things is a joke. All these so called 'veggies' that don't eat meat but eat fish. Aren't most fish simply being suffocated to death? Pretty slow and horrid way to die, even if you are just a fish.

That's so true. Everything is killed to be eaten; plants, animals, fish. People need to just enjoy the stuff and stop ruining good food :'(

[DarrenSV650S]

But isn't this just capitalism at its finest? Subway is a company. They figure, if we cut out bacon/ham and replace turkey in these x number of stores, we'll make more money because there are y number of muslims in said areas.

Similarly, I doubt halal nando's in certain areas are there to 'please the minority for fear of racism'. It's just good business that equates to more profits.

Don't you think it would be better to offer halal meat as an alternative, rather than forcing it to anyone who buys it? That would make the most business sense.

What if every high street food place goes down this route and do away with bacon and ham? Bacon and ham are tasty ;)

[Bibio]

TBH i would rather eat Halal meat than most of the crap they sell in supermarkets that are pumped full of god knows what.

true Halal meat is not just about how its dispatched but also includes how the animal is raised which should be as organic/free range as possible.

i wonder how many orgers have actually dispatched an animal for their own consumption or even for mercy purposes. i know i have.

catch it, kill it, cook it, eat it. yum yum.

[PyroUK]

Stunning the animals can ruin the meat, the animals release chemicals due to the shock. In theory to kill by slitting the throat is less stressful.

As a technical Muslim (by birth not choice, I will eat pretty much anything regardless of how it's killed, including tasty tasty bacon) I can see the benefits.

Personally having seen first hand the effect or lack thereof of a bolt gun and neck breaker on a cow, I'd rather they be executed in a quick clean action by a properly trained individual. Plus the other part of it is to ensure all the blood drains, which again carries impurities which can leech in to the meat.

I get why a store would swap out its stock in certain areas from a business perspective, but to carry 2 lines of produce that spoil on the off chance either buyer will purchase is bad business sense.

[kaivalagi]

TBH i would rather eat Halal meat than most of the crap they sell in supermarkets that are pumped full of god knows what.

true Halal meat is not just about how its dispatched but also includes how the animal is raised which should be as organic/free range as possible.

i wonder how many orgers have actually dispatched an animal for their own consumption or even for mercy purposes. i know i have.

catch it, kill it, cook it, eat it. yum yum.
+1

I have killed my own too, killing a full grown pig with a knife is quite the ordeal though, they make a seriously haunting squeal when they know what's coming....bloody tasty freshly butchered and cooked on the same day though! Wild boar is even better!!

As touched on before as an important point this particular animal had a great outdoor life living and rummaging in tropical forest (and one opportunity to ransack the local village root veggies) before it's time came...and not a single bit of it was wasted. Hot stone fried heart and lung was eaten by all involved whilst the rest was cooked in an earth oven.

I think anyone who can't kill an animal for food ought not to eat them.....

[Littlepeahead]

I have too when I was younger. Fish, pig, chicken, pheasant, pigeon, rabbit. I taught my nephews how to joint a rabbit last year as they wanted to learn. Grow up on a farm and you learn to do all that. I've seen chicken processing plants and abbatoirs and battery sheds for hens producing eggs and none of it is pleasant but most people don't care as long as their meat is cheap. America is worse than us.

[PyroUK]

I think anyone who can't kill an animal for food ought not to eat them.....


Not arguing but...

Can't or won't?

As I would readily do it if I had the opportunity but living in a large town with not much more than pigeons to shoot limits my ability a bit, so I am a can't, not a won't.

??

[MisterTommyH]

Wow hasn't todays news been thoroughly misreported and misunderstood.

The ONLY piece of news today regarding animal suffering was that New Zealand Lamb is almost all killed in a Halal way - no confirmation of whether the animal is stunned or not (although it probably isn't). This is because the majority of their product is exported to middle eastern islamic countries so it make economic sense to base their operation around this.... Lesson - if you don't like it, don't buy New Zealand Lamb.

All supermarkets offer 'own brand' meats originating in the UK. If you care about stunning buy British meat. It doesn't matter if it is Halal.

In Britain the Halal Meat Council has voted that it is acceptable for meat from stunned animals to be classes as Halal - therefore 90% of all British Halal meat is actually stunned. This is due to the fact that the Koran does not specifically say anything to forbid stunning, some people just choose to take a different interpretation (analogous to different views on the Burka, or Sharia Law).

All the meat for consumption in the UK is bled out - almost certainly through a slit throat - it's just that sometimes (most times) it's stunned first. A slit throat is not unique to Halal.

Assuming you accept all the above, the Halal process just means that a prayer is said at the slaughter. Does this really bother you? I couldn't care what anyone is saying while they slaughter my dinner.

The big misnomer is that this thread should probably be titled 'Kosher Meat'.
While 90% of Halal is stunned - 0% of Kosher is because, unlike the Koran, the Jewish texts do specifically prohibit stunning. And while Kosher animals are all killed un-stunned - Kosher practices do not permit the consumption of the hind quarters of the pig. Therefore the 'spares' are used in the rest of the food chains and you are far more likely to be consuming meat slaughtered in a questionable (to you) way from a Kosher source than a Halal source. But whats been in the news all day..... Sometimes I think I want to get off the world.

[kaivalagi]

Not arguing but...

Can't or won't?

As I would readily do it if I had the opportunity but living in a large town with not much more than pigeons to shoot limits my ability a bit, so I am a can't, not a won't.

??

I mean "won't" of course, or "can't" if the opportunity is available to them, I should have been clearer, sorry

Pigeons aint worth it, not that great IMHO, maybe a local cat might taste a bit better but that's someones pet :)

[Spank86]

Assuming you accept all the above, the Halal process just means that a prayer is said at the slaughter. Does this really bother you? I couldn't care what anyone is saying while they slaughter my dinner.
It would if I were a practicing christian.

[PyroUK]

I mean "won't" of course, or "can't" if the opportunity is available to them

Pigeons aint worth it, not that great IMHO, maybe a local cat might taste a bit better but that's someones pet :)


Phew! Don't know what I'd do if I couldn't have bacon or steak any more! :-)

Yeah so far I have only been successful at getting one pigeon in my garden. Didn't eat it though as I had to give it to my friend who fronted me the money for rifle. Since then there haven't been any! Thinking if I can get a few, or ten, they would make a half decent pie though! :-)

[MisterTommyH]

It would if I were a practicing christian.

And if this was an argument being made then I might at least pay lip service to it, but I haven't heard that yet today, and I suspect you're playing devils advocate.

In any case thats bull (pun intended). No where in Christianity does it say that you can't eat anything except for meat on a Friday (and actually that a scaled back version of what should be full fasting).

Coming from a Catholic family (with actual Ordained Clergy in the family), I can tell you that this would not affect those members who practice, and that they would be perplexed at why it should affect anyone else.

[Spank86]

And if this was an argument being made then I might at least pay lip service to it, but I haven't heard that yet today, and I suspect you're playing devils advocate.

In any case thats bull (pun intended). No where in Christianity does it say that you can't eat anything except for meat on a Friday (and actually that a scaled back version of what should be full fasting).

As I said, IF, I don't believe in any of it but the issue remains there for some although they may not know it (probably don't, not many Christians are that conversant with the bible)

I would strongly advise not making statements like that before you've checked the bible, there's quite a few commandments about things you shouldn't eat since the Old Testament laws remain in force, and if you want a New Testament source then Corinthians is pretty clear about not eating meat dedicated to false idols or false gods which halal meat clearly would be.

Of course the bible also says don't go to church to pray but consistency never was a human trait.

[Bibio]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_Islam

so it seems that a Muslim saying a prayer is actually saying a prayer for the Christians as well...

BTW i'm not religious but find religion a fascinating subject.

[MisterTommyH]

I accept your point, about sweeping statements.

But my intention when stating Christianity was to talk about modern Christian practices rather than the Bible, which is, by the Churches own admission, not to be taken literally.

Also I'm not sure I accept that the God of Islam would be considered a false God. Isaac and Ishmael were brothers - Their father talked to god - Ones descendants became the Jews, ones the Arabs. The God is the same - just a different manifestation / practice.

Overall my point is that a lot of people seem to have jumped on the bandwagon due to either misplaced animal welfare concerns, or an outright opposition to a culture / religion that is different, rather than because it actually affects them.

[Spank86]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_Islam

so it seems that a Muslim saying a prayer is actually saying a prayer for the Christians as well...

BTW i'm not religious but find religion a fascinating subject.

It is true that the religions share a common root and that Islam could be seen as an extension of Christianity in the same way that Christianity can be seen as an extension of Judaism BUT Corinthians 10-19ish and the next few lines suggest that by virtue of it being a sacrifice Christians should not be taking part and that as it is a sacrifice it cannot be to god but to demons... Well demons or idols, I'd need to learn Greek Or Latin or possibly Aramaic to give you a clearer answer.

[Spank86]

Also I'm not sure I accept that the God of Islam would be considered a false God. Isaac and Ishmael were brothers - Their father talked to god - Ones descendants became the Jews, ones the Arabs. The God is the same - just a different manifestation / practice.


It's true that by so up traditions they both began following the same god, but then that's a family that has long history of falling away from worship of god in favour of idols.

Yes they both believe they are talking to the same god but see my post above for why it's potentially incompatible.

I would argue that in context Muslims would come under the heading of "Gentiles" (based on the understanding of the time it was written)

[Bibio]

as far as i'm aware it's not a sacrificial ritual. the prayer is said to sanctify/bless the meat. if it were a sacrificial ritual then Islam would technically be classed as a pagan religion.

[Spank86]

as far as i'm aware it's not a sacrificial ritual. the prayer is said to sanctify/bless the meat. if it were a sacrificial ritual then Islam would technically be classed as a pagan religion.

The difference between the two is something I'm not qualified to determine.

I am however pretty sure it's a fine line if there is one.

[MisterTommyH]

Which may be applicable to practicing Christians at the time that people were still referred to as Gentiles.

[Spank86]

Which may be applicable to practicing Christians at the time that people were still referred to as Gentiles.

The text at the time was in Latin, gentile is a translation (from the KJV as it happens, I always liked the form of it best) but I'm not aware of any authority that's superseded it in between?

It's certainly newer than "thou shalt not kill" and since then the religion now called Islam has only moved further away from Christianity and from a Christian perspective presumably further towards the worship of a false or different god.

[MisterTommyH]

I was meaning to refer back to the the original point of the prayer being said over the slaughter affecting a 'practicing christian' rather than arguing the context of what was meant when the books were written.

Unlike Islam, I don't know of a group in Britain that take such a literal meaning of text. Even modern documents giving the accepted interpretations of the bible such as 'Vatican II' are not taken literally with guidance given that things should be taken as the 'Spirit of Vatican II" rather than exactly what is contained in the words.

Modern practice is therefore a watered down version of the passages you are quoting, which I'm sure are correct in a purely academic sense. So I still can't see why in a modern sense the prayer being said over the slaughter should offend a modern practicing christian, unless there was some other form of prejudice behind it.

In any case, I seem to have made my point badly, so I'm out.

[Spank86]

Modern practice is therefore a watered down version of the passages you are quoting, which I'm sure are correct in a purely academic sense. So I still can't see why in a modern sense the prayer being said over the slaughter should offend a modern practicing christian, unless there was some other form of prejudice behind it.

In any case, I seem to have made my point badly, so I'm out.

I think you're confusing the organisations with the practitioners, the organisations can say what they like but they don't actually have biblical standing, the individual Christians are the ones that have to make up their minds.


Essentially I can't definitively say its bad, and from what I've read neither can the bible but I certainly believe its significant enough to warrant labelling and the decision being in the hands of individuals whatever their beliefs.

[Fallout]

Wow hasn't todays news been thoroughly misreported and misunderstood.

The thread is poorly titled. The article on Halal was just the catalyst for my rant. My point was simply: Why do non religious people who eat meat make such a big deal about how an animal is killed? Killing is the worst thing you can do to it, so the argument is ridiculous. Its like bringing slippers to break into someone's house and rape their sleeping children because your shoes might make their carpet dirty. It's an irrelevant detail given the horror of the act.

The whole religious debate was not of interest to me.

[Spank86]

How is killing the worst thing you can do?

If you could guarantee it wasn't painful you could kill me tomorrow and I wouldn't give a damn (I'd be too dead to care). Pain is the worst thing you can do.

Of course killing actually people gives pain to their friends and family, I'm not sure mommy cow cares though.

[Mrs DJ Fridge]

I totally agree with Bib's comment of kill it, cook it, eat it, this is why when I have had perfectly good pigeon in my sights I have not shot them because I cannot cook them. I would however still reiterate comments that I have made on other threads, go to your local butcher not a supermarket, they can give you real details about what you are eating. Not a vegetarian, just a lazy eater who cannot be bothered to eat meat, I do eat fish it takes less chewing, yes that lazy, and I could never be a vegetarian, I love leather shoes and handbags.

[Spank86]

I could never be a vegetarian, I love leather shoes and handbags.

I'm not sure you're supposed to be eating those.

[DJFridge]

Animals are tasty; fact. Animals that lead relatively happy and stress-free lives are more tasty than factory-farmed unhappy animals; also fact. So, even ignoring any moral arguments, it's in our interests to raise animals properly. I grew up as a city boy so I didn't get a lot of opportunity to kill and eat stuff, although I did once kill a couple of trout to eat and they were yummy. If I buy meat, it's from a local farm shop because I know where it comes from. No killing of animals is a nice thing, but stun and slit is more "humane" than most. If that happens to make it Halal then, quite frankly, meh! Doesn't bother me either way.

[Mrs DJ Fridge]

I would never chew on my favourite shoes or handbags, but I hate it when people say I am a vegetarian but the still use leather goods, where on earth do they think leather comes from? Idiots!

[thulfi]

Don't you think it would be better to offer halal meat as an alternative, rather than forcing it to anyone who buys it? That would make the most business sense.

What if every high street food place goes down this route and do away with bacon and ham? Bacon and ham are tasty ;)

I doubt it, otherwise that's probably what they would be doing. Who can say for sure, but my guess is the extra cost of buying chicken from two different suppliers doesn't justify the loss of earnings from selling only halal chicken. I've never met anyone who won't eat halal meat for the fact that it's halal other than a handful of sikh people (Jews obviously only eat Kosher anyway). I certainly haven't met any christians/atheists or whatever who give a damn.

I don't quite understand not selling bacon or ham though, but again I'm sure they've analysed it all before making the decision.

On a side note, this Russell Brand clip is pretty funny. Sums up the Sun's headline today quite well.

jZYGJOhD0cY&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZYGJOhD0cY&feature=youtu.be

[Specialone]

I care about halal meat, if I know it's halal I won't wanna eat it, should be a choice not a condition.

[Bibio]

I care about halal meat, if I know it's halal I won't wanna eat it, should be a choice not a condition.

do you eat 'indian' takeaways?

[DarrenSV650S]

I doubt it, otherwise that's probably what they would be doing. Who can say for sure, but my guess is the extra cost of buying chicken from two different suppliers doesn't justify the loss of earnings from selling only halal chicken. I've never met anyone who won't eat halal meat for the fact that it's halal other than a handful of sikh people (Jews obviously only eat Kosher anyway). I certainly haven't met any christians/atheists or whatever who give a damn.



I don't quite understand not selling bacon or ham though, but again I'm sure they've analysed it all before making the decision.



On a side note, this Russell Brand clip is pretty funny. Sums up the Sun's headline today quite well.



jZYGJOhD0cY&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZYGJOhD0cY&feature=youtu.be


Lol at halal chicken must be alive when slaughtered!

[thulfi]

Lol at halal chicken must be alive when slaughtered!

Haha yeah +1.

[Specialone]

do you eat 'indian' takeaways?

Nope.
You are missing my point, i don't want it rammed down my throat, if I go in to a restaurant and they say all the meat they have is halal, I'll walk out.

I'm sure I've ate it, but if businesses convert all their meat to halal to satisfy a minority, i won't eat there.

It will be our laws next.

[thulfi]

Nope.
I'm sure I've ate it, but if businesses convert all their meat to halal to satisfy a minority, i won't eat there.

It will be our laws next.

This is exactly the type of paranoia that articles like the sun are great at instigating and fuelling. Do you really think that companies add halal meat for anything other than improving their business and making more money? They can't appease every minority by way of the meat they serve, and I'm sure they don't give a toss anyway. And don't worry, I'm sure our laws are safe.

Out of interest do you eat fish? You have no problem about suffocating something to death but won't eat a throat slit animal? If you care so much about the last few minutes of a chicken you never knew abouts life, why are you eating it in the first place?

[NTECUK]

As long as it's cooked properly it doesn't worry me how it meets it end.
Ok rather that it doesn't suffer but if the way it's been raised is poor then it's suffered all its life

[Specialone]

This is exactly the type of paranoia that articles like the sun are great at instigating and fuelling. Do you really think that companies add halal meat for anything other than improving their business and making more money? They can't appease every minority by way of the meat they serve, and I'm sure they don't give a toss anyway. And don't worry, I'm sure our laws are safe.

Out of interest do you eat fish? You have no problem about suffocating something to death but won't eat a throat slit animal? If you care so much about the last few minutes of a chicken you never knew abouts life, why are you eating it in the first place?

I don't eat fish, fish don't feel pain the same way as chickens or livestock.

Anyway, that's my beliefs and choice about halal meat, I want Britain to maintain its traditions and identity, not adopt other countries ways (and laws, remember my words).

I don't read newspapers for the record, they are all made up crap.

[Fallout]

How is killing the worst thing you can do?

If you could guarantee it wasn't painful you could kill me tomorrow and I wouldn't give a damn (I'd be too dead to care). Pain is the worst thing you can do.

I guess that's up for debate. If you take the stance on death being kind of irrelevant because you're dead, then that devalues life ... and if life has no value then pain and suffering is kind of without value, beyond your pathetic worthless self not liking it. :D

What a bag of worms this is.

[yorkie_chris]

I saw a article on the news today about Halal meat and the animals not being stunned. Some animal welfare dude said something about wanting to ban all instances of animals being killed without stunning them first on the grounds that it was inhumane. I actually laughed out loud.

I find it tiring listening to this kind of guff. How do you rationalise in your brain better ways to murder an animal? How do you get to a place in your head where you honestly think "stun then throat slit" is better for the animal than just slitting its throat? I'm not arguing that it isn't, I'm arguing that its feckin irrelevent. If you're going to take a herd of animals to get murdered and end their lives (which is the ultimate evil as far as the animal concerned) why make a big deal about the few minutes before it happens?

If you want to be a veggie on animal welfare grounds, then fine. Good for you. You're not murdering animals. You've made a stand. Fair play.

If you want to murder animals but do it in 'a nice way' then shut up.

For the record, I eat meat. Now hit me with your ridiculous animal welfare arguments and ease your murderous conscience by babbling on about nice ways to murder. You know you want to. :D

Ridiculous welfare concerns? Adrenaline taints the meat, you don't want to kill an animal that's stressed.

The ultimate evil is not the kill, it is being inhumane.

I totally agree with Bib's comment of kill it, cook it, eat it, this is why when I have had perfectly good pigeon in my sights I have not shot them because I cannot cook them. I would however still reiterate comments that I have made on other threads, go to your local butcher not a supermarket, they can give you real details about what you are eating. Not a vegetarian, just a lazy eater who cannot be bothered to eat meat, I do eat fish it takes less chewing, yes that lazy, and I could never be a vegetarian, I love leather shoes and handbags.

Why not they, make good eating if you've got time to pluck them.

[dizzyblonde]

I believe, Sikhs won't and can't eat halal, because of their religious beliefs.

Now that's a fact that mass media don't highlight. It's not just Christian and Muslim people that are affected by shops selling halal or not.

[thulfi]

Anyway, that's my beliefs and choice about halal meat, I want Britain to maintain its traditions and identity, not adopt other countries ways (and laws, remember my words).

.

Britain is a capitalist, free market economy. Certain places deciding to serve halal is a good example of that, so you should be all for it. It has nothing to do with this countries laws.

[thulfi]

And in the grand scheme of things, eating halal unknowingly is hardly a biggy when you're probably munching on a horse or god knows what else.

[PyroUK]

And in the grand scheme of things, eating halal unknowingly is hardly a biggy when you're probably munching on a horse or god knows what else.


Hahahaha so true

Reminds me of the burger scene from Demolition Man :)

[shiftin_gear98]

[QUOTE=Specialone;2953889]I don't eat fish, fish don't feel pain the same way as chickens or livestock.

Anyway, that's my beliefs and choice about halal meat, I want Britain to maintain its traditions and identity, not adopt other countries ways (and laws, remember my words).

QUOTE]



What!!, how can you talk of British traditions and not partake in one of the biggest seaside traditions of all time. What about a nice portion of fish n chips!! Your loss..


Personally would eat any form of meat however it was killed.
I would like to think it skipped happily in a field munching grass, sipping water from a fresh flowing stream, frolicking with it's kind, with a smile on it's face.


But **** happens.


As long as it's cooked properly so it doesn't give you the ****s....

[timwilky]

Meat is meat, Halal, Kosher whatever!

I grew up taking a chicken out the pens, necking it, cleaning out, plucking and presenting to mum to cook.

Later on, it would be broom handle over a goose neck, stand on broom handle, body under my arms, twist and pull.

Pheasant, partridge, woodies, rabbits were staple takes of my teens/twenties. I used to do a few deer culls back then too.

I have always made quick kills and never inflicted unnecessary suffering.

My cousin was a pork butcher. The pigs walked in downstairs and were carried out of the shop upstairs. Everything but the squeek got used. Until the rules got changed a few years ago. He slaughtered all his own. One of my local butchers still runs a slaughterhouse. If you care about the quality and welfare of your meat. Buy from a local butcher who can tell you how/when it was slaughtered, what farm it came from etc.

[ophic]

And in the grand scheme of things, eating halal unknowingly is hardly a biggy when you're probably munching on a horse or god
Horse is yummy. Never tried god. :p

[ophic]

My cousin was a pork butcher. The pigs walked in downstairs and were carried out of the shop upstairs. Everything but the squeek got used. Until the rules got changed a few years ago. He slaughtered all his own. One of my local butchers still runs a slaughterhouse. If you care about the quality and welfare of your meat. Buy from a local butcher who can tell you how/when it was slaughtered, what farm it came from etc.
Many butchers outsource their slaughtering to a slaughterhouse these days. So you still don't know for sure.

[CharleyFarley]

[QUOTE=timwilky;2953928]Meat is meat, Halal, Kosher whatever!

Everything but the squeek got used..........[\QUOTE]


Is a pigs @rse pork??









Not the hole of it!!!!!!


"Gas it w###a".........

[timwilky]

Many butchers outsource their slaughtering to a slaughterhouse these days. So you still don't know for sure.

Yes, but when I think of the butchers 2 miles away, they take in contract slaughter work to top up their own demand. Costly having to have a meat inspector in place.

but it is a small local slaughter house. they take their time. right first time. Not like the local massive industrial slaughter/butcher/packager where it is all industrialised.and half a dozen different supermarkets names go on the package.

[ophic]

Not like the local massive industrial slaughter/butcher/packager where it is all industrialised.and half a dozen different supermarkets names go on the package.
I did a project at school on meat and visited one of these in Corby. They wouldn't show me the actual slaughter, but some of the cows were still kicking and struggling as they were hoisted up by the back legs onto a hanging conveyor belt for the butchering.

You'd think they were still alive until you realised they had no heads at this point.

[SvNewbie]

I can't help but think that most of the controversy around Halal meat is thinly veiled racism. There is no good reason to be upset by it, excepting possibly finding it against your own religion.

I personally couldn't care what your shaman or witch doctor felt the need to utter during the slaughter.

As many other people have said quality of life is much more important that whether the slaughter was carried out with stunning or not (although personally I think its slightly more humane).

That being said, I don't trust anyone who doesn't eat bacon :)

[ophic]

There is no good reason to be upset by it, excepting possibly finding it against your own religion.
That's a pretty big exception.

[SvNewbie]

That's a pretty big exception.

Hmm, we've had the religion argument on the org before. To me they are all nothing more than stupid rituals and bedtime stories. But that's just my opinion.

However, plenty of people I've seen reposting these stories couldn't give a crap about religion or animal welfare for that matter.

[Littlepeahead]

Nothing wrong with eating horse if you know that's what you are eating. Or snake, hare, peacock, crocodile and tree grubs - I've tried all of those (but I still won't eat bacon). The point was I knew what I was eating, no one was selling me crocodile while claiming it was chicken, whereas Asda or whoever were selling beef lasagne made of horse, which is where the whole food chain becomes questionable. I think overall it was a good thing as it made people start asking about the origins of their meat.

Saying that, crocodile steaks are pretty cheap compared to fillet steak, but leather handbags and shoes reasonably priced yet a crocodile skin handbag costs an absolute fortune, well over £2k for a nice one.

[ophic]

Saying that, crocodile steaks are pretty cheap compared to fillet steak, but leather handbags and shoes reasonably priced yet a crocodile skin handbag costs an absolute fortune, well over £2k for a nice one.
Maybe most crocs have rubbish skin?

What if it was alligator skin and they sold it as crocodile? :eek:

[timwilky]

I have a non English "muslim" friend, very educated, PHD in noise & vibration engineering applied to steam turbines, married to an English lady and spent the last 35 years living in this country.

It is not unknown for him when reading the menu. "Excuse me miss! Is this bacon halal"?
If they come back and assure him that it is. He will order a bacon and egg sandwich.

But having worked in some strange parts of the world, the flight back from Java with "Beef Bacon" and "chicken sausages" for breakfast with BA just does not work. It needs to be pig.

What is good though is hunting wild boar in the jungle with dogs driving the boar, the locals wont eat it. So it is sport for them. Oil barrel barby and some fine pig meat on the plate. None of this animal welfare malraky for them. So don't be surprised that they don't see a need for it when they live here

[SvNewbie]

I've tried all of those (but I still won't eat bacon)


That being said, I don't trust anyone who doesn't eat bacon :)

I rest my case ;)

[Spank86]

I can't help but think that most of the controversy around Halal meat is thinly veiled racism.


Funny isn't it. We accept any belief as long as it isn't imposed on others... Except racism.

In a democratic free market (ish) society why shouldn't racists as private individuals be able to buy whatever foods they wish as long as its within UK law?

[PyroUK]

Found this on Facebook today:
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/09/aqu3y9az.jpg

[Bibio]

Pmsl...

[ophic]

Funny isn't it. We accept any belief as long as it isn't unfashionable.
Fixed for you.

[Spank86]

Fixed for you.

I'm not sure how fashionable Islam is.

[kaivalagi]

I'm not sure how fashionable Islam is.

They've got their own clothing industry with a unique style...

[ophic]

I'm not sure how fashionable Islam is.
It's definitely growing.

My point is, it becomes fashionable not to tolerate certain viewpoints - and this varies a lot over time. Social attitudes are ever changing and what is utterly deplorable today might be considered quite acceptable tomorrow and vice versa. It's all a bit less absolute that it really should be.

[Spank86]

They've got their own clothing industry with a unique style...

It's not that unique.

ET was doing it in the 80's.

It's definitely growing.
By that logic so's the fashion of wearing nappies.


My point is, it becomes fashionable not to tolerate certain viewpoints - and this varies a lot over time. Social attitudes are ever changing and what is utterly deplorable today might be considered quite acceptable tomorrow and vice versa. It's all a bit less absolute that it really should be.

That's something along the lines of what I was trying to illustrate. I believe that in a tolerant and free society People should have the right to want to punch me in the face, as long as they don't try to act on it [example for illustration only, feel free to plead mitigating circumstances in my specific case case].

[rb8989]

Happy to be vegan.:chef:

[SvNewbie]

I believe that in a tolerant and free society People should have the right to want to punch me in the face, as long as they don't try to act on it [example for illustration only, feel free to plead mitigating circumstances in my specific case case].

So what you are saying is that it is ok to hate Jews; so long as you don't go out round up thousands of them and give them some special showers.

Damn you Godwin!

[Spank86]

So what you are saying is that it is ok to hate Jews; so long as you don't go out round up thousands of them and give them some special showers.

Damn you Godwin!


Pretty much.

[Fruity-ya-ya]

Having just watched a you tube video of how Halal meat is slaughtered, I think I can safely say I'd prefer to be stunned if I had the choice rather than bled out while fully compos mentis.

That said I see what some might say re the animal is bread for the table and what does it matter how they spend their last moments of life but, if the suffering can be limited or made less by stunning or in any way swifter by a shot to the brain, then I think I'm a supporter for the quicker ending.

I don't think killing something slower for religious reasons is something I can advocate but do respect that others might choose to seek it out as part of the belief they follow. I suppose there are things I do that others might not like or understand but that's what makes the world such an interesting place to live sometimes.

[Red ones]

Can someone explain to me why I need to get upset?
It was reported earlier this week that over 95% of Halal meat in the UK is stunned prior to slaughter, so the difference between Halal and non-Halal is a human element and blessing in one of the methods.

Contrast this with the horse meat story. It was reported that eating horse meat is not illegal . BUT horse meat is 'unclean' (only 2 horses were on the ark!) and not kosher or halal. To put it in foodstuff without notifying is misleading people to unknowingly consume a banned meat. Surely we should be upset about that?

[carelesschucca]

People just like to get uppity about things that really don't make one iota of a difference.... thats all it is...

[Littlepeahead]

There was also the issue of people getting upset that any horsemeat they had eaten possibly containing substances such as Bute, which is I believe a sort of Nurofen for nags. But if people knew some of the antibiotics and growth hormones and other rubbish they put in farm animals a tiny amount of Bute would be the least of their worries!

[yorkie_chris]

Contrast this with the horse meat story. It was reported that eating horse meat is not illegal . BUT horse meat is 'unclean' (only 2 horses were on the ark!) and not kosher or halal. To put it in foodstuff without notifying is misleading people to unknowingly consume a banned meat. Surely we should be upset about that?

I don't really care about that but I would be pretty upset about eating brain matter and other stuff which is bound to be in there if they don't even know what animal it came from.

Remember the CJD thing?

This is why supermarkets can bugger off and I buy meat from a farm shop.

[Mrs DJ Fridge]

There was also the issue of people getting upset that any horsemeat they had eaten possibly containing substances such as Bute, which is I believe a sort of Nurofen for nags. But if people knew some of the antibiotics and growth hormones and other rubbish they put in farm animals a tiny amount of Bute would be the least of their worries!

Bute is a strong pain killer that is banned for competition horses, rather stronger than Nurofen, usually only used on older animals that are basically on their last legs, it was much more commonly used about 30 years ago, but even then you could face quite a long ban from competing if you were caught using it. I would have no problem eating horse meat, as it was said earlier it is about the provenance, if I was starving I would eat pretty much anything.

[Owenski]

9 pages of utter guff.
I wont eat lamb through principal but I do eat all other meats (we're designed to eat it) it would be silly not to.
Im not blinkered I know my beef once moo'd my kfc clucked etc but I do NOT support the idea that this meat it produced from a pain concious animal.
Ive seen slaughter house bolt guns and im happy that gets the result with the least stress to the animal.
Slitting its throught and draining it out without first tranquilising or sedating it in some way is ****ing horrific.
So the animal has to die and I dont contest that, but it doesnt need to suffer in the process.
Anyone who challanges that logic tell me what you would do if a pet of yours was dying on the street, leave it or help it?

[davepreston]

bad news for you big man, pigs don't get stunned just a couple of million volts thru the temple
so no more bacon for poor owenski

[JulesW]

9 pages of utter guff.
I wont eat lamb through principal but I do eat all other meats.

Owenski, what is it about lamb that makes you avoid it?

I have always considered lamb to be one of animals that gets a better ride from birth to dinner table. They graze outdoors and have a social life before slaughter. Many pigs, veal calves, chickens and foie gras geese have a rather unpleasant life before death releases them.

[Owenski]

Aye Dave they're zapped into unconciousness before they're butchered. I think thats gotta be pretty quick, compare it to the vid in my link and decide for your self :-)

Jules,
My stance is 2 fold pal, well 3 if you count that im a softy.
1. Shortly after learning to drive I recall pulling up along side a slaughter house lorry (ironically at what i now know to be the halal plant at junction 40 of the M1). Anyway I turned to my right to see the open slats, expecting to see cows/sheep I instead saw nothing... then noticed the lower slat and although they were not tiny teeny lambs they were clearly not adult. I felt heart broken for them to be making that journey, it made an instant connection to the History Id just studied and those people on the trains to the death camps of ww2.
I couldnt eat another lamb since. All that potential and life just lost, taken from them before they even matured its just sad.

2. Since then and not too long ago my feelings were affirmed when watching a nature doc.
A Cheetah mother had a cub, during her hunting the cub was at the den and attacked by a snake. the mother returned to find her cub dead, she cried. then ran off tracking the snake to kill it. She returned to her cub and for 48hours straight she mourned it, for several more dayd she still called for it.
This showed me that animals do have maternal instinct and care for their young just as we do. It is that sense of taking a baby from its mother with the soul purpose of killing it that I also struggle with.

And no I wont est veil either.

3. im a softy...

So yeah thats my reasons for not eating lamb. Although im not one of those who then stops others doing so. My wife loves lamb shank and has it at any oportunity but me, I wont choose to on the above basis and it doesnt matter how they're killed, those principals will remain so Im eternally lamb free.


Someone better with these things than I am, please make this link work.
Its a video of some slaughter houses working. Not for the weak stomached.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=545_1345800806#lUKLE2iTQC2szc3J.01

[davepreston]

the slaughter house was my first job after leaving school
my biggest memory
full fry up double everything 50p (and that was for the tatty bread)


ps the interview was 10 guys being walked thru the kill floor, anyone who didn't b line for the door ( 2 of us) were welcomed with open arms

[CharleyFarley]

the slaughter house was my first job after leaving school



Same here Dave, local Butcher/slaughter house, free lance work fa butchers/farmers/small holders etc......paid cash & "in kind" (meat).
If its come out of a slaughtered animal (beast/pig/sheep/fowl) I've eaten it!!! Some of the best/tastiest meat is stuff the public generally dont see/consider (lamb/calf suckin glands) etc



"Gas it w###a".........

[Teejayexc]

Shouldn't these posts be in the ...


Phuket, Food thread ?

[JulesW]

Owenski, thanks for the thorough reply. IMO, lambs get a much better deal than pigs. Most porkers and baconers spend their short lives in minute concrete pens. They don't get to socialise, they see no sun and don't get to forage outside. Don't even think about high volume chicken production, it is disgusting.

While Halal slaughter methods might disturb some people, industrialised meat production is a much more serious issue when it comes to the quality of animal husbandry.

[Fallout]

Ridiculous welfare concerns? Adrenaline taints the meat, you don't want to kill an animal that's stressed.

The ultimate evil is not the kill, it is being inhumane.

Pretty sure the animals aren't calm before their execution, no matter which method you use at the abattoir. They're bricking it the whole time. The adrenaline argument doesn't seem valid unless you compare a slaughtered animal to a free hunted animal, shot unexpectedly perhaps.

Also I respectfully disagree on the ultimate evil argument. It's inhumane to give someone a beating, but give someone the choice of a beating or a painless instant death and I'm pretty sure what 99% of people (or animals if they had the mental capacity) would choose. Murder is the ultimate evil.

[tactcom7]

Someone better with these things than I am, please make this link work.
Its a video of some slaughter houses working. Not for the weak stomached.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=545_1345800806#lUKLE2iTQC2szc3J.01


After watching the 'mexican chainsaw' video (just...don't o.k) I thought I could stomach most things but that was just bloody awful mate. I've always wondered how one human being can chop another's head off and not think twice about it but now I know. Where do i sign the anti-halal petition??

[yorkie_chris]

Also I respectfully disagree on the ultimate evil argument. It's inhumane to give someone a beating, but give someone the choice of a beating or a painless instant death and I'm pretty sure what 99% of people (or animals if they had the mental capacity) would choose. Murder is the ultimate evil.

The comparison should be getting a kicking then being killed. Giving a cow a bit of a shoeing isn't going to put it on your plate is it?

They're bred for meat, their fate is pretty sealed from birth. What's your argument, that you could butcher it live and it wouldn't be any worse because murder is the ultimate evil? Don't be daft.