Another UK Incident Scenario

[Nutsinatin]

Didn't want to thread jack so I thought I would start my own here, based on a situation this morning.

At a T junction major to minor, bike A is on the minor road, major road is 60mph speed limit. An approaching bike B in the near side lane is signaling left and slows gradually from 60mph to 15mph to turn left. Seeing this bike A pulls across this lane to exit right, at the same time a car following bike B pulls out into the oncoming lane to overtake the slow moving vehicle turning but then has to make an emergency stop to avoid colliding with bike A by a few inches. Legally who is at fault?

I know that rider A should have anticipated this unexpected move but just wondering who would legally be at fault, rather than what could have been done as I've learnt my lesson, would it be split responsibilities?

I've included some amazing art work to try to clear up my description, blue is bike a, red is the car and green in bike B.

[munkygunn182]

I would say bike A as it's crossing into the flow of live traffic, but that's based on hee-haw

[Nutsinatin]

That's what I was wondering, however bike A had pulled into the lane before the car, so did the car then enter the oncoming lane when it was not free of oncoming traffic?

[squirrel_hunter]

Not sure of the legality, but over taking near a junction is somewhat frowned upon.

A similar scenario was played out on a BikeSafe course. Which involved 2 lanes one stopped and signalled to pull out, the other lane moves and there is a collision. But for the life of me I cant remember what the outcome legally was. Either way the biker ended on the floor.

But my solution to the scenario on the BikeSafe is course was declared as brilliantly original and would work here also. The bike rider A should simply make a safer left turn and travel 100 yards down the road to then perform a U-turn on a roundabout...

[Red Herring]

The vehicle entering from the minor road always has to afford precedence to the vehicle on the major road, regardless of which direction they are traveling in or where they are on that road. The motorcyclist in that scenario will always be at fault. If you think about it the other way around ie: the car entering the road whilst the motorcyclist is overtaking (perhaps filtering) then you have one of the most common motorcycle crash scenarios.

[NTECUK]

The onus of the responsibility is on the driver which is pulling out of the side road.

This has been shown in many cases. Even though there may be some contributing factor by the driver on the main road, the driver pulling out usually bears the most liability.Harding-v-Hinchcliffe (1964) - 100% – A motorcyclist came up behind a bus travelling in the same direction but signalling to turn left. Wishing to continue on the main road, he overtook the bus and was hit by the Defendant emerging from the minor road and who failed to see the motorcyclist masked by the bus until the moment of collision. The Defendant should have waited the few extra seconds necessary to let the bus complete its turn because there was always the possibility of a vehicle being masked by the bus – the motorcyclist was not held to be negligent at all.

[NTECUK]

This is an extremely common type of accident. Vehicle A is waiting to pull out of a side road and Vehicle B, on the main road, stops to allow them to do so. However, Vehicle C is overtaking Vehicle B on the main road and therefore collides with Vehicle A who has pulled out of the side road.

Now many would think that this is an equally blameworthy accident between Vehicle A and C. The Vehicle A should not have pulled out when unsafe to do so and Vehicle C should not have been overtaking at a junction.

This was the case in Worsfield v Howe. It was found that the overtaking vehicle was travelling too fast and the emerging vehicle could not see past the tanker that had allowed it to pull out. However most of these types of cases have not been settled this way.

In the case of Harding v Hinchcliffe the vehicle emerging from the side road was held fully liable for the accident. A bus was turning left into the side road in which the defendant was waiting to pull out of. In the process of the bus making the left turn, the defendant pulled out to turn right and collided with a vehicle overtaking the turning bus.

[Red Herring]

.....

This was the case in Worsfield v Howe. It was found that the overtaking vehicle was travelling too fast and the emerging vehicle could not see past the tanker that had allowed it to pull out.......


There are always going to be associated circumstances. I've dealt with several collisions where the junction was in the proximity of a bend and we could clearly show that the driver of the vehicle entering the main road had exercised all due care before pulling out only to be hit by a vehicle coming around the bend at excessive speed. On those occasions the culpability shifted onto the driver of the vehicle on the main road, even if they had been traveling below the posted speed limit.

[Biker Biggles]

Just a small point here,but a vehicle apparently slowing with a left indicator on should not be assumed to be actually turning left,so the bike should not have pulled out of the side road in the first place.Never rely on another vehicle doing what you think it will do if that puts you in danger.

[mickrobbobmw]

Am I correct that the car was on the wrong side of the road then because it was overtaking?...If so its the cars fault, if you have an accident and your on the wrong side of the road its always your fault

[mattSV]

Am I correct that the car was on the wrong side of the road then because it was overtaking?...If so its the cars fault, if you have an accident and your on the wrong side of the road its always your fault

Really???

[NTECUK]

Harding v Hinchcliffe is case law.
So no
Put it this way.
Your following the bike turning left they pull to the left giving you a path ahead and you decide to overtake.But as your on the bike you don't cross the into the other carriageway.
Who's at fult

[Sir Trev]

Was knocked off while filtering in this scenario. Luckily we saw each other *just* too late and the impact was pretty much nothing. Lost my balance and dropped my H100SII though which was annoying but nothing more than a tiny scratch in the silencer so thankfully not an issue. The guy knew he was in the wrong but in fairness he was edging slowly out past a near stationary line of cars very sensibly and I should have looked out for him more.


I've also been the overtaking car in something very similar to this scenario and it's not much fun. Slow moving car in front, road opens up, nothing coming, pull out to overtake, moron in a van pulls out of an unsigned field/works exit on my offside after only looking to his right... After frantic hootage he stopped, swore at me through open window and luckily I had enough space to squeeze through the gap as I'd never have been able to stop. In this case the vehicle pulling out onto the road had a perfect view of vehicles overtaking and they still didn't see me driving a Vectra estate. They drive among us.

[NTECUK]

It's always mirror signal, life saver (can be a mirror check if appropriate) manover.
No point being in the right and endup with a ride in the white tax with the flashing lights.

[NTECUK]

ST.
Your vectra is fitted with a cloaking field.
What has to be keep in mind is that just because you are capable of looking and prosseing information on the road, other people can't always be as good.

[Red Herring]

Am I correct that the car was on the wrong side of the road then because it was overtaking?...If so its the cars fault, if you have an accident and your on the wrong side of the road its always your fault

Not wishing to flame you to much but I think that is a pretty bold statement that you perhaps ought to justify or evidence with some example or experience?

[NTECUK]

Not wishing to flame you to much but I think that is a pretty bold statement that you perhaps ought to justify or evidence with some example or experience?
It make your job easier if it was the case ;)

[TamSV]

Sweeping generalisations are always wrong ;)

[Bibio]

its not against the law to overtake if the way is clear, yes its generally frowned upon to overtake at a junction when traffic is waiting to pull out. however the car driver had every right to make an overtake as they are on the 'main road'. unless there are solid white lines.

bike pulling out of junction is at fault.

[Nutsinatin]

Cool, it's a junction I use everyday just never come across this situation anywhere before as I wasn't unsighted and just didn't expect that maneuver at all, still had to learn it sometime and this didn't work out too badly, won't be doing it again hopefully!

[Bibio]

always wait for 'the gap' even if it means another min or two to your journey.