E-petition against surface dressing

[SIII]

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/67408

Please follow the link and sign up. It is time we eneded the awful practise of substandard road repairs and danger to every biker.

[Jayneflakes]

Cheers, done.

[TheRamJam]

Signed

[Murley.]

Signed. I'm honestly surprised that I haven't heard of someone getting seriously hurt by this. There's been a few times when I've found myself on roads with this resurfacing with no signage. And don't get me started on what it does to regularly used corners. Loads of shallow pot holes and polished surfaces where the stone chips have been worn off. Bloody deadly in the wet.

[andrewsmith]

I've got nothing wrong against road planing, when its done right (never is). The contractor/ council are meant to roll it allow it to cool and sweep it

[NTECUK]

Don't get me started on ECC muppets who still haven't swept the Peldon route.

[Heorot]

In Norfolk, LaFarge have the contract for resurfacing but they tend to use sub contractors to do the actual work. After two weeks for the surface dressing to bed in, the contractor should sweep up the remaining loose chippings but it doesn't always happen. Complain to your county highways dept. if its still loose after 2 weeks and they should get the contractor to sweep then. With the emphasis on SHOULD.

[timwilky]

Interesting. They have just surfaced dressed a section of the A6 where I live.

It must have been swept about 10 times in the past fortnight. All seems well with it. Even on the bike it felt stable. But other areas I have ridden it is like trying to ride on a bed of marbles. no stability.

So is the problem surface dressing?. I don't think so. More poor workmanship

[Heorot]

Correct. Poor workmanship or failing to comply with the contract terms.

[SvNewbie]

I think that is still a problem though, having a road surface which looks the same but can either be perfectly fine (bedded in and swept) or like riding on marbles (within the first 2 weeks or longer if not swept) is not safe for two wheeled vehicles.

[Heorot]

You should try riding on the roads round my villa in Turkey. Their idea of surfacing is to spray tar on the existing road surface and then to spread a thick layer of 1cm smooth rounded river gravel pebbles. They never sweep it. I ride a 150cc scooter when in Turkey and its like trying to ride on marbles.

[NTECUK]

Hey its time to switch to a super moto then.

[Bibio]

surface dressing is shizz compared to the new stuff they are putting down which takes just the same amount of time to do but unlike surface dressing the new stuff is amazing, smooth and grippy with no loose chippings. when its done its done.

loose chip and tar surface dressing is bad, the tar seeps threw the chip during the summer, when the winter comes and the rain starts it's like riding on black ice. the cold during the winter cracks the tar and you end up with brick sized patches starting to come loose then it just gets worse. south ayrshire has to be the worst case i have ever encountered of bad surface dressing in my life. dont even get me started on the roads where you can still see the scraping threw the surface.

[Spank86]

You should try riding on the roads round my villa in Turkey. Their idea of surfacing is to spray tar on the existing road surface and then to spread a thick layer of 1cm smooth rounded river gravel pebbles. They never sweep it. I ride a 150cc scooter when in Turkey and its like trying to ride on marbles.

I wouldn't mind if I had a light scooter to ride on, it's trying to ride on a large bike that's the problem.

Even if every procedure is followed the stuff is still a complete nightmare for two weeks and a pain in the neck for long afterwards. Even once swept I've NEVER seen a road without patches of missed gravel which are next to invisible compared to the properly fixed stuff.

It also tends to wear thin in patches straight away when done on roads with high traffic volumes.

[Sweetthy]

Done!

[littleoldman2]

Done

[cheesypeeps]

Complete and posted on another forum as well.

[Red Herring]

Man up the lot of you.....it just helps to keep things interesting. You'll be wanting red and white kerbs next and maybe a marshal on every bend?

[AJC]

Signed, I usually cant be bothered signing petitions as I am quite considerably lazy. However after going sideways on this shizzle multiple times I feel strongly enough to use up 45 seconds of my time, strong feelings indeed! Also almost as bad is when you follow another bike on this and feel like your paintballing, but with extra hard stone shaped things called stones!...

[DJFridge]

Not signed. I agree with those who blame poor contractors rather than the process itself. It is the standard method certainly in our little patch of West Sussex and usually works ok. Yes, the first couple of days can be a little interesting on a bike but it is always clearly signed, so if you ride like normal at that point you deserve to fall off. Within a few days of traffic, you have a good, grippy surface on which you can ride with no trouble. The fact they tend to leave the 20mph signs up for weeks after can be irritating mind you.

[Spank86]

Man up the lot of you.....it just helps to keep things interesting. You'll be wanting red and white kerbs next and maybe a marshal on every bend?

Don't need the marshal but I'll take the kerbs and maybe a few banked corners.

[SIII]

Not signed. I agree with those who blame poor contractors rather than the process itself. It is the standard method certainly in our little patch of West Sussex and usually works ok. Yes, the first couple of days can be a little interesting on a bike but it is always clearly signed, so if you ride like normal at that point you deserve to fall off. Within a few days of traffic, you have a good, grippy surface on which you can ride with no trouble. The fact they tend to leave the 20mph signs up for weeks after can be irritating mind you.

Totally disagree, it is not usually properly signed, most of the time the warning sign is at the start of the dressing and gives no time to slow and be prepared to slide around. Nor is it swept in a couple of days, by the contractors or traffic, we end up with weeks of big strips of gravel on the inside, middle and outside of the lane.

If the job has been done well (which is not often), it can take a year for our nice quiet roads to be usable again on a motorcycle.

I want to ride and enjoy, not have to worry about these man made dangers that only last a couple of years when done. One of the best roads in Scotland - the Queens Highway betwwen New Galloway & Newton Stewart has been ruined by this blight and has only just come back to being enjoyable again. It is now gravel free after 2 years but already there are strips of dressing coming away. The difference between properely repaired surface and this abomination is massive.

[Red Herring]

Totally disagree, it is not usually properly signed......snip......and..... I want to ride and enjoy, not have to worry about these man made dangers that only last a couple of years when done........

I think you need to raise you game above the printed sign on the side of the road and notice the change of road surface, the overspill up the verges, the big cloud of dust from other traffic and maybe even the clatter of loose stones bouncing off your mudguard....all signs of a recently dressed road! It's just plain Roadcraft mate.

If you are worried about man made dangers best you just ride on green lanes then, like they did before man came along and invented roads..... Oh and you will need to do it on a horse of course!

I know I might come across as taking the mick a bit but we do need a bit of a reality check here. I would love to see all our roads re-done in nice smooth tarmac but all the money for that went to do Spains roads and there isn't any left in the kitty. We just have to make do with what we have. I do note the point about it not being done properly, but that's a question of professionalism and not just on the part of the workmen laying the road! The sad facts are it's going to get a whole lot worse before it gets any better.

[SIII]

So i am happily riding along within the speed limit and round a corner to find i have got to brake hard cos there's a tractor or any other reason - OK, but to find the whole surface is covered in loose gravel !!! By the time the gravel is bouncing off the mudguard, you're already on it !!! Bit too late !!!

Most obstacles can be dealt with by braking or taking avoiding actions, but please tell me how to avoid a whole road width of loose gravel ???

I have fine roadcraft, there is no cloud of dust, as we are lucky to have nice empty roads, thank you.

Not too late, what we need is for them to repair the roads properly and not waste there time and money on this cheap-ass way of covering the faults.

[NTECUK]

It's the horrendous noise the gravel makes as it grinds round my front mud guards and all the chippings hitting my front pipes radiator and fork stanchions that particularly grind my gears.
If I want to ride on gravel I'll dig out the XT.

[Red Herring]

So i am happily riding along within the speed limit and round a corner to find i have got to brake hard cos there's a tractor or any other reason - OK....

I'm sorry to harp on mate but just because you inside the speed limit it doesn't mean your speed is appropriate. You need to be riding at a speed that allows you to deal with anything you are likely to come across, regardless of what the "limit" is. "Any other reason" includes said change of road surface (and in my experience they very rarely start re-dressing a road just around a blind bend), along with any other kind of debris that can find it's way onto a road and bring a motorcyclist to grief.

There will be times when you cannot avoid riding on loose gravel, learn to deal with it.

[Tomoose]

I'll take a nicely patched and surface dressed road over a potholed and shiny mess any day.

Surface dressed roads have good consistent grip too.

Yes it can be a nuisance for a short while after it's done, but it's not a problem in the scheme of things.

Surface dressing is used to seal the road surface as a heavily repaired and patched road will have lots of joints and every joint is a failure point.

The other key reason is to restore skid resistance to a worn or polished surface.

Ban surface dressing and the roads would deteriorate rapidly. Surface dressing costs something like £1-£3/m2, as opposed to resurfacing at more like £12-£40/m2.

The issues arise from irresponsible motorists driving to quickly over fresh sites, poor workmanship, incorrect specification of the binder and types I chipping etc. But the process itself is brilliant if designed correctly and applied well.


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[Jason H]

Done and Shared yesterday. This method of road refurbishment is not cost effective, causes damage vehicles and increases risks (for a short duration).

In reality it has to be done once a year (and in some places more often) to maintain the road. over the course of lets say 10yrs, you could spend using (Tomoose's costs as an example) 10*£3/m2 coming in at a delightful £30/m2 for those 10years. Resurfacing a road (again using Tomoose's figures as an example) will last greater than 10 years (assuming it is laid correctly) therefore costing in the region of £40/m2 for the same time period. Not a massive difference in cost.

The average age of the roads in the UK are a shocking 50yrs old. Roads maintained in this fashion do not keep a consistent grip across the width and breadth due to the chipings varying in density from migration casued by cars and other vehicles during the bed in period. This same variation in density means some areas have little chipping and are actually very slippery when hot or wet (agrrivated further if the two are combined) and also allowing greater penetration of water which causes the road surface break away over the winter as shallow but re-occuring potholes.

[Heorot]

There are lies, damn lies and statistics. I don't know where you got that average from but even if correct, it hides the reality. Take Norfolk for instance. It has more miles of road than any other county in the UK, but 80-90% of those roads are either C or unclassified roads that hardly see any other than local traffic. The unclassified never get resurfaced, only patched. All the A roads and the most used B roads are in pretty good condition. Only the C and unclassified are poor but they comprise most of the miles, therefore lowering the average.

[Tomoose]

Surface dressing is part of the life cycle of a road. I assure that without surface dressing our network would deteriorate at such a rapid rate that in 10 years time we'd all need to be driving 4x4s.

As for needing to do it annually, frankly thats nonsense. If authorities are re-surface dressing roads on an annual basis then they are doing it wrong.

In an ideal world we would resurface roads every 15 years, but then we'd all be moaning that we'd be taxed extortionately to pay for it, and we'd be forever in traffic jams due to road works.

Patching followed by surface dressing is a superb way of keeping our roads in good condition as long as it is done on the right site with the right design and preparation and good workmanship.

The idea of wasting literally millions of tonnes of virgin aggregates and bitumen by resurfacing roads that just need a few potholes repairing and skid-resistance restoring is frankly outrageous.

[Bibio]

Red Herring, have you ever been on the roads in Dumfries and Galloway?

trust me they are the worst roads i have ever had the misfortune of being on, that and South Ayrshire.

so yes SIII knows how to ride on gravel like most of the Ecosse Possie we take it in our stride.

i dont know if they have been laying any of the new type surface dressing down south but it's miles ahead of the tar and chip. the new type surface is superb and as far as i have seen the old surface is prepared the same way by scraping then laying but the new surface is like traditional tarmac without the top chipping that used to get rolled into the surface. i have been on a few roads now that were laid 3 years ago with the new style and they are still like brand new. the new surface must be cost effective as Fife Council has started to use the stuff.

[Tomoose]

The average age of the roads in the UK are a shocking 50yrs old. Roads maintained in this fashion do not keep a consistent grip across the width and breadth due to the chipings varying in density from migration casued by cars and other vehicles during the bed in period. This same variation in density means some areas have little chipping and are actually very slippery when hot or wet (agrrivated further if the two are combined) and also allowing greater penetration of water which causes the road surface break away over the winter as shallow but re-occuring potholes.

Your concerns only come to fruition if the surface dressing hasn't been designed properly, or has been applied poorly etc.

What is shocking about a road being 50 years old exactly? I'm most certainly not up for the government splashing out to reconstruct 2% of the road network every year. The cost and traffic delays would be phenomenal.

To give an idea, we currently spend £10,000,000,000 (ten-thousand-million pounds) on highways maintenance in the UK, to maintain 245,400 miles of road. It works out at approximately £260 per car per year.

A typical cost for road reconstruction is £140/m2. Most roads are designed to last 40 years, so to keep things in spec we'd need to reconstruct 2.5% of the network every year. Thats reconstruction 6135 miles of road per year.

The average road is 7.3m wide, and there are 1609m in a mile so thats 72,000,000m2 of reconstruction every year at £140/m2 thats £100,000,000,000m (one hundred-thousand-million pounds) every year.

So yes we could keep the network in tip top condition, we just have to spend TEN TIMES AS MUCH on road maintenance every year. Thats approximately £2600 per year per car.

And reconstruction is SLOW. I estimate there would be 100 times the delays due to roadworks.

Still think surface dressing is ****?

[Bibio]

Tomoose, i take it you loose your job if they stop the current type surface dressing?

seems to me you feel very strongly about the subject considering you have only posted 4 times and 3 of those are on this subject. so you either work for the Gov, local council or a tarring company.

so at the moment only a measly £10 billion a year is spent on the UK roads infrastructure... shocking.

[Tomoose]

Tomoose, i take it you loose your job if they stop the current type surface dressing?

seems to me you feel very strongly about the subject considering you have only posted 4 times and 3 of those are on this subject. so you either work for the Gov, local council or a tarring company.

so at the moment only a measly £10 billion a year is spent on the UK roads infrastructure... shocking.


Nope, my job is quite safe thank you.

I am a Highway Engineer by trade, but I'm not personally involved in surface dressing any more, most of my work is in resurfacing/reconstruction schemes.

I am however a uk tax payer and most certainly don't want to be taxed an extra £200/month to improve the roads. I do however agree that a lot of the current spend is wasted, and extra investment is required.

I'm pondering an sv650 and have been lurking for a while. Sorry for contributing. :(


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[Bibio]

I'm pondering an sv650 and have been lurking for a while. Sorry for contributing. :(


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dont be sorry contribute all you like, we love nothing better than a good discussion on the org :-)

:smt052

ooohhh and the SV is a great budget fun V-Twin bike ;)

[Red Herring]

Red Herring, have you ever been on the roads in Dumfries and Galloway?

trust me they are the worst roads i have ever had the misfortune of being on, that and South Ayrshire.

so yes SIII knows how to ride on gravel like most of the Ecosse Possie we take it in our stride.

....

Only the once, it was a fair few years ago and as I recall we were driving a 2CV, so probably not a fair reference..... however roads are roads and I do get to ride a fair variety down here in the south and we have a few shockers to.

If you can all take these roads in your stride I'm at a loss as to what all the fuss is about?

[Red Herring]

Personal attacks aside (great post by the way Tomoose) has anybody come up with a sensible alternative to surface dressing? It's all very well saying something is rubbish and shouldn't be done but surely you have to have considered your options before forming a view?

[Tomoose]

There are lots of alternatives, so many ways of treating roads, but there is never going to be a one-fits-all process. Every road should have the appropriate treatment based on how the road has failed, it's use etc.

Lots of local authorities have latched onto surface dressing as a quick and cheap solution, without considering alternatives and executing schemes poorly.

We are also incredibly bad at preventative maintenance in this country. Roads should be subject to planned maintenance, but as things stand everything is reactive 'fire fighting'.


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[Spank86]

Personal attacks aside (great post by the way Tomoose) has anybody come up with a sensible alternative to surface dressing? It's all very well saying something is rubbish and shouldn't be done but surely you have to have considered your options before forming a view?

Change the rules on reinstatement after civil works so that companies have to resurface right across the lane instead of small patches or lines.

That would go a long way to removing the points of failure that result in these things being needed.

A better post work QC process would also help, fresh tarmac that's either an inch lower or in one instance 3 inches higher (with a ramp) than the road surface should be banned.

The numpties round our way also like to spray their surface dressing over the top of all the utilities manholes leading to more damage when someone needs to get in there (usually within a few weeks). Plus whatever they do you get the dips where the new surface is of course higher than the old but the box lids are still the same height.

[Bibio]

Only the once, it was a fair few years ago and as I recall we were driving a 2CV, so probably not a fair reference..... however roads are roads and I do get to ride a fair variety down here in the south and we have a few shockers to.

If you can all take these roads in your stride I'm at a loss as to what all the fuss is about?

coz its carp having to ride at 10mph for miles on end add to that having to clean the tar and chip out of every nook and cranny from the bike. the paintwork my lower fairings are feked because of it, can i put a compensation claim in.. i very much doubt it. so it's not only a carp surface it's costing me money.

[Heorot]

Tomoose,

in Norfolk, we had a good programme of preventative maintenance but the government has slashed funding for the last 5 years and, as a result, staff have been made redundant and there are now not enough people or money in the highways dept. and budget to both identify existing problems as well as carry out the planned preventative work. Norfolk CC are just, as you said, firefighting and the roads here are only going to get worse.

All county councils have had their budgets slashed so the problem is likely to be across the board.

And please keep contributing. Any expertise is welcome.

[The Idle Biker]

Done.

[Dipper]

Perhaps this e-petition shouldn't be specifically about banning road dressing as I am sure there are times when done properly it is the best option, however anything that gets the government thinking about how to do things better must be a good thing...

Signed.

[NTECUK]

Can you have a pertion about people who don't full fill there promise.
Doubt that. The political fall out be a big deal.

[Foot]

So 10,000 votes reached, and the response is basically: yeah whatever, more sh1tty road dressing for you!!


The e-petition 'Ban Surface Dressing roads' signed by you recently reached 13,664 signatures and a response has been made to it.

As this e-petition has received more than 10 000 signatures, the relevant Government department have provided the following response: This Government takes the issue of road safety and the condition of the road network very seriously. Indeed the Government is investing more than £6bn in this Parliament and £12bn in the next for highways maintenance on both the strategic and local road network. There are many types of materials to resurface the highway network. This type of dressing will seal the old road surface, preventing the ingress of water which causes deterioration of the road surface, and the road matrix and so reducing the risk of wider scale deterioration and road failure. When designed and laid properly they pose no additional risks. On many roads where traffic flow are not excessively high, surface dressings have been shown to be both cost-effective and sustainable. The Highways Agency, responsible for the motorway and trunk road network, do not routinely use this type of dressing due to the high traffic flows. For local roads, which are the statutory responsibility of local highway authorities, it is for each individual authority to decide on the most suitable materials to be used for resurfacing and repair works, based upon their local knowledge and circumstances. This e-petition remains open to signatures and will be considered for debate by the Backbench Business Committee should it pass the 100 000 signature threshold.


Thanks,

HM Government e-petitions http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/

[Jason H]

The petition requires more sharing. If it reaches 100,000 it will get some proper discussion.

[NTECUK]

If it was done properly there be less people feed up with it.
Just a lack of professionalism in carrying out the task is the main problem.

[SvNewbie]

95% of the time the surface is fine 5% its like riding on ice. There is little indication of which you are going to get. Slowing to 15mph every time you see reasonably freshly laid stuff isn't really feasible, you'll have car drivers up your chuff in no time.

The signs are left up for months after its laid. Even if they could be relied on it's often one sign at the start of the surface with little time to get from 60mph to 15mph.

It's fine on your local roads because you can keep track of the state yourself. But it's horrible for anyone else.

[NTECUK]

Let's be honest. If they ran a road sweeper along it 5days after its laid it would help a lot.

[SvNewbie]

Help a lot for sure, especially if they then picked up the signs after they finished.

[kaivalagi]

One more to the petition

Today I came across yet another road with a new surface that is unsweep, no signage to warn so not a recent resurfacing at a guess and a very nervous 10 minutes on the bike as a consequence

[NTECUK]

You should inform the county council of the road condition.
Get the name of the person who you talk to and a email to them to confirm.
ECC,state theyplaces signage and wait "about a week "to re sweep the road . So no signage or two weeks it's report time.
Week after that if nothing is done re contact, note to them a copy ofthe invoice forglass /paint damages to your vehicle, the previous emails is being forwarded to the local mp and the local paper. It will be done 24hrs later ;)

[Heorot]

One more to the petition

Today I came across yet another road with a new surface that is unsweep, no signage to warn so not a recent resurfacing at a guess and a very nervous 10 minutes on the bike as a consequence
Where is the road please. Anywhere near south Norfolk?

[Jayneflakes]

I have spent at least half an hour this morning reporting damaged roads to our local council, after all if you don't tell them, how are they to know?

However one of the most dangerous sections I have reported is a section that was surface dressed late last year. The dressing has now all but gone, the damaged surface underneath has come through again and the pot holes are now the size of curbs. This is clearly a serious issue because the area repaired was about 100 metres long and the damaged area in that repair is now about 50 metres long and with long grooves that can catch a tyre. Surface dressing was not the most suitable repair for this section of road, given the number of buses and lorries that pass along this road.

I did sign the original petition because here in North Somerset, some sections of road have been so badly done as to be dangerous and the poor result and necessary repairs months later have cost us all a fortune.

[kaivalagi]

Where is the road please. Anywhere near south Norfolk?
You're alright....this was North Norfolk when I was riding near Wells

[Murley.]

I've noticed that more and more of these surfaced dressed roads are loosing their surface. They leave a nice polished bit of road that makes things interesting in the wet, especially when its more prominent on corners.

[Heorot]

Legally, it's not considered a defect that needs immediate attention until it is 75mm deep IIRC. and 50mm for pavement defects (again IIRC). Roads where the top layer deteriorates do not usually reach these depths.

[JulesW]

Signed and confirmed.