Second Malaysian airliner down.

[Matt-EUC]

So I just heard on the radio that another Malaysian airliner has gone down. This one however shows evidence of having been shot down with a missile.... conspiracy theorists, lay down your thoughts...



http://tinyurl.com/odpjcqj

[munkygunn182]

Pesky Russians. That, or I blame Canada.

[Matt-EUC]

bOR38552MJA


Sent via the medium of interpretive dance.

[Kenzie]

Everyone seems to be pointing fingers straight at the Russians. A BUK launcher was seen in the area at the time of the plane coming down and then it quickly disappeared. RIP to all those caught up in this.

[Biker Biggles]

But why was it flying over a war zone?Not to mention the dozens of other aircraft which have been merrily tracking back and forth over there recently,despite it being common knowledge the nutters on the ground have access to these missiles.I would have thought basic common sense would led to airlines avoiding the area,but perhaps Im just old fashioned.If the "authorities" dont ban the flight path then everyone hides behind that and ducks responsibility for making a decision.

[maviczap]

But why was it flying over a war zone?Not to mention the dozens of other aircraft which have been merrily tracking back and forth over there recently,despite it being common knowledge the nutters on the ground have access to these missiles.I would have thought basic common sense would led to airlines avoiding the area,but perhaps Im just old fashioned.If the "authorities" dont ban the flight path then everyone hides behind that and ducks responsibility for making a decision.

Apparently the flight path was declared a safe zone so long as they flew above 32,000ft, this one was at 36,000.

Lots of other major carriers were still using it today, incl Lufthansa. Only BA diverted their flights via turkish airspace since the troubles began.

Poorly trained BUK operators didn't know the difference between a civilian and military flight on the radar screen.

80 kids on this flight, it's an outrage & anyone who thinks any kind off gallows humour is funny should take a long hard look at themselves :smt075

[NTECUK]

OK big conspiracy http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696847/They-shouldnt-f-g-flying-There-war-going-Ukraine-intelligence-officials-release-phone-calls-claim-PROVES-Russia-shot-Flight-MH17.html

[Biker Biggles]

Apparently the flight path was declared a safe zone so long as they flew above 32,000ft, this one was at 36,000.

Lots of other major carriers were still using it today, incl Lufthansa. Only BA diverted their flights via turkish airspace since the troubles began.

Poorly trained BUK operators didn't know the difference between a civilian and military flight on the radar screen.

80 kids on this flight, it's an outrage & anyone who thinks any kind off gallows humour is funny should take a long hard look at themselves :smt075

Exactly.Hiding behind the "authorities".If they were worth a penny of their huge sararies the airline executives would have made their own decisions,just like BA did,and the major American carriers.

[kaivalagi]

What a shocker! What's even more crazy is that airlines are still flying over the area today after this has happened...

[Specialone]

Second? Is this the same one that went down yesterday? So the 'first' was the one that went missing a while back?

Bit late?

[kaivalagi]

Yep, he's only a day late :)

[Mrs DJ Fridge]

The Russians are being told it was the Ukranians I think we will all believe the propaganda, IMHO the real truth is somebody got it really wrong and shot down the first plane they saw before checking what it was, huge tragedy all round and just the excuse the US has been looking for elbow it's way into another conflict it has no place in. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I have had Not The Nine O'clock News' s song All Out Super Power Confrontation going through my head all day, if you are, too young to know it you can find it on you tube I am sure.

[The Basket]

The Russians are being told it was the Ukranians I think we will all believe the propaganda, IMHO the real truth is somebody got it really wrong and shot down the first plane they saw before checking what it was, huge tragedy all round and just the excuse the US has been looking for elbow it's way into another conflict it has no place in. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I have had Not The Nine O'clock News' s song All Out Super Power Confrontation going through my head all day, if you are, too young to know it you can find it on you tube I am sure.

Soviet propaganda. I am amazed the sheer bare faced lies the Russians are telling. Pure 1984 doublespeak.
The Americans have the right. Its the Russians who are destroying Ukraine.

[Spank86]

OK big conspiracy http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696847/They-shouldnt-f-g-flying-There-war-going-Ukraine-intelligence-officials-release-phone-calls-claim-PROVES-Russia-shot-Flight-MH17.html

"Pentagon experts on Friday said it was impossible to imagine that the missile could not have been fired without Russian help."

Well done daily mail.

[Sid Squid]

Do you think they're wrong? The paper's language is far from measured, but that doesn't by necessity mean they're wide of the mark.

Lacking any credible evidence to the contrary, by which I mean; has anyone else in the area even got the capability or the motives, the accusation that pro Russian separatists and the Russians, (which, face it, is the same thing), are responsible is near impossible to refute. Putin's very carefully phrased comments speak volumes - he full well knows who is responsible - and is now attempting to limit the damage.

[Spank86]

Do you think they're wrong? The paper's language is far from measured, but that doesn't by necessity mean they're wide of the mark..
I think they just said they cant imagine it couldnt have been fired without Russian help.


When they either mean they "cant imagine it could have been fired without Russian help". or "the missile couldn't have been fired without Russian help"

Cant imagine it couldn't have been fired would suggest that the only way to stop it firing was to have Russian help (which honestly, from what I hear about Russian maintenance crews could be accurate)




Lacking any credible evidence to the contrary, by which I mean; has anyone else in the area even got the capability or the motives, the accusation that pro Russian separatists and the Russians, (which, face it, is the same thing), are responsible is near impossible to refute. Putin's very carefully phrased comments speak volumes - he full well knows who is responsible - and is now attempting to limit the damage.

I would say nobody except the Russians, the separatists, the Ukrainians, or the Americans have a motive.

I'd say the separatists is the most likely but I'd also say it's only 50/50 whether the Russians had much control over them.

[Sid Squid]

I suspect the intended meaning is along the lines of;
You can't just roll into CashConverters and buy a rocket launcher with these capabilities. So someone else is helping.
Not to mention the usage of such equipment requires a significant amount of expertise.

[PyroUK]

If you want conspiracy theories, I reckon it was the drugs industry. According to reports there were somewhere in the region of 100 too scientists in the field of HIV/AIDS cure research on that flight.

The drugs companies who are raking in the big bucks on those drugs will have secured a lot more cash with the loss of those lives.


But I agree with what someone else said, some skittish idiot pulled the trigger without knowing what they were firing at.

[dizzyblonde]

Currently there is a lot of attempt to cover up the evidence of what happened.


I could say that there was a big cover up for flight MH370 as well.


It smells of fish..... the size of Moby D1ck.

[Spank86]

I suspect the intended meaning is along the lines of;
You can't just roll into CashConverters and buy a rocket launcher with these capabilities. So someone else is helping.
Not to mention the usage of such equipment requires a significant amount of expertise.

True.

They have to have taken it off either the Russians OR the Ukrainians (since they use a lot of Russian hardware), whether by official or unofficial channels or outright theft.

As to whether they needed help to fire it, they clearly didn't have direct on the ground help or they'd have shot the right aircraft down, I'm also skeptical about how much physical help you'd actually need to fire one of these things.

[daveyrach]

Apparently the supposed leader of the self proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic posted on Facebook not long after the incident 'We warned you not to fly over our skies' but it was quickly removed. Putin is implicated one way or another weather it was supply the weapons or training the rebels on how to use stolen Ukrainian BUK's or heaven forbid it was his 'undercover' troops who fired it.

[PyroUK]

To be fair, if it's switched on it doesn't take a genius to operate a SAM. I worked out how to use a rapier in a few mins when I was at RIAT some years ago. Don't know the specs of the missile in question here but a lot of them are designed to be easy to use and fire. As really, they should be used in the heat of battle

[Spank86]

To be fair, if it's switched on it doesn't take a genius to operate a SAM. I worked out how to use a rapier in a few mins when I was at RIAT some years ago. Don't know the specs of the missile in question here but a lot of them are designed to be easy to use and fire. As really, they should be used in the heat of battle

I figured as much, I would imagine Russian gear would be easier if anything.

[maviczap]

I figured as much, I would imagine Russian gear would be easier if anything.

Yes, easy to operate whilst drunk.

Seems that shots were fired above the heads of some European observers ( there to watch what's happening in the ground conflict) yesterday when they visited the crash site.

Shows the mentality of these rebel fighters firing shots around people who've jump come to have a look, who probably weren't even armed.

[dizzyblonde]

Yes, easy to operate whilst drunk.

Seems that shots were fired above the heads of some European observers ( there to watch what's happening in the ground conflict) yesterday when they visited the crash site.

Shows the mentality of these rebel fighters firing shots around people who've jump come to have a look, who probably weren't even armed.



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-mh17-crash-ukraine-accuses-rebels-of-taking-38-bodies-from-site-and-destroying-evidence-9616490.html


The people sent in to monitor the crash site, left within an hour

[maviczap]

Yes, the rebels don't want them there, for obvious reasons.

[The Basket]

The Russians have simply lied since the whole Ukrainian business has started.

So here is the easy way to know what happened.

What every the Russians say, believe the exact opposite.

[Spank86]

What every the Russians say, believe the exact opposite.
What if they tell you they're lying to you?

[The Basket]

What if they tell you they're lying to you?

A liar would never say they're lying.
Because that would be telling a truth.

[Spank86]

A liar would never say they're lying.
Because that would be telling a truth.

Keep going.

[Matt-EUC]

Yes, please do.


Sent via the medium of interpretive dance.

[The Basket]

Yes, please do.


Sent via the medium of interpretive dance.

About the liar paradox? Wow.
That's a tough one.
I cannot.

[Matt-EUC]

This statement is false.


Sent via the medium of interpretive dance.

[embee]

Tut, what are they like?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/3/newsid_4678000/4678707.stm

....but that was different, the ship was right to defend itself, apparently.

[Biker Biggles]

Tut, what are they like?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/3/newsid_4678000/4678707.stm

....but that was different, the ship was right to defend itself, apparently.

Yanks screwed up badly there,but they didnt deny anything.

[The Basket]

Yanks screwed up badly there,but they didnt deny anything.

Or hide the bodies.
Mr Putin also has another missile. Its called the SS-27 Sickle or RT-2UTTKh Topol-M.
So don't expect much.

[embee]

Yanks screwed up badly there,but they didnt deny anything.

That's alright then.

[21QUEST]

That's alright then.

It must one rule for one and a different rule for the rest.

And the US was so honest in their story telling, it took them four years to officially admit, the initial contact with Iranian gun boats was actually in Iranian waters.

According to the article in the link, the US has also never admitted responsibility or apologised....have they?

And that's before we forget we are talking about a country whose military has the capabilty to identify and destroy a pin from space.

You couldn't make it up really. Propaganda must work.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Onk_wI3ZVME

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50sYFs6p7lk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suw48g-FoKE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGHolFXRNQk

[The Basket]

It must one rule for one and a different rule for the rest.

And the US was so honest in their story telling, it took them four years to officially admit, the initial contact with Iranian gun boats was actually in Iranian waters.

According to the article in the link, the US has also never admitted responsibility or apologised....have they?

url]
The Americans certainly admitted the shoot down and apologized for loss of life and paid compensation. They haven't formally apologized to the state of Iran or accepted what I suppose would be negligence or criminal responsibility or other legal semantics.
USSR shot down a few aircraft in its territory and its believed Ukraine shot down Siberia airlines flight 1812 with a surface to air missile in 2001 and it took a long time for the Ukrainians to accept responsibility.

[maviczap]

USSR shot down a few aircraft in its territory and its believed Ukraine shot down Siberia airlines flight 1812 with a surface to air missile in 2001 and it took a long time for the Ukrainians to accept responsibility.

Not forgetting theb Russians also shot down this plane during the Cold War era

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

[The Basket]

Plenty aircraft shot down/ blown up/ hijacked over the years.
take your pick

[Kenzie]

What are your thoughts on the Sky News reporter rummaging through someones luggage at the crash site?

[dizzyblonde]

What are your thoughts on the Sky News reporter rummaging through someones luggage at the crash site?

No different to the BBC doing the same?

The press can get in no problem, so why can't the investigation teams?

All valuable belongings have been ransacked by scavengers, it's a sad issue, however the reporters aren't stealing the belongings, and although perhaps the reporter didn't mean disrespect, it was perceived so.

[Kenzie]

Someone at work said something similar. Why can the press get in but nobody else.

[flymo]

I think its really insensitive to be showing pictures of recognisable possessions on the TV.

[dizzyblonde]

A nice bit of propaganda for you all

How to smuggle out the world's biggest elephant that the whole world is looking for...

Under a pair of grannies old curtains


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-mh17-crash-blogger-captures-footage-showing-buk-missile-launcher-that-shot-down-jet-now-back-in-russia-9618115.html

[MisterTommyH]

All valuable belongings have been ransacked by scavengers.

Can you point to a source for this? I hadn't seen any reports about it.

[dizzyblonde]

Can you point to a source for this? I hadn't seen any reports about it.

I believe I saw it on Channel 4 last night on its news programme. I remember them showing an open camera case, with missing camera
Or one of the many world articles I've read.....believe me, I read a lot of news from many countries :-/

[dizzyblonde]

http://blogs.channel4.com/matt-frei-on-america/mh17-absence-bodies-valuables-diplomacy/3910

There you go Tommy, Ch4 report last night

[MisterTommyH]

Cheers,

Can't believe that hasn't been more widely reported... Not good... but then the reporting from the Ukraine in the last few months has been very sparse.

Wonder if it was by wronguns or 'ordinary' people driven to it by the situation.... not that I know how bad or not the situation is.

[The Basket]

All sort of bad.
But not surprising.
Russia has said it fully supports the investigation but talking aint doing.
The crash scene/ crime scene has been totally contaminated and the bodies havent been released.
Just poor.

[dizzyblonde]

Cheers,

Can't believe that hasn't been more widely reported... Not good... but then the reporting from the Ukraine in the last few months has been very sparse.

Wonder if it was by wronguns or 'ordinary' people driven to it by the situation.... not that I know how bad or not the situation is.

It's not surprising that there have been looters.
Since the dawn of time and human disasters be it war or a tragedy such as this, there has been looters.
A sad, and harsh reality I'm afraid.

Personally, I'd have preferred to see those armed men, protecting the site, but then you can't expect that.

[DJFridge]

I'm always deeply sceptical about the motives of people who believe so strongly in the rightness of their cause that they feel the need to wear black balaclavas to hide their identities.

[Ben.tattooer]

I hate to be skeptical but I don't believe a single word the BBC/Fox News etc say. Something is afoot, I must admit I do tend to think everything is a conspiracy but we would all be deluded if we thout that these huge news companies are there to report for our best interests without bias or influence.

[daveyrach]

For what it's worth I'm now a little skeptical that Russia was complicit in it. Maybe it supplied the weaponry, but, I think it was shot down by the rebels by mistake and now they are just trying to cover that up.

I don't believe for one minute the Russians story of a Ukaranian SU-25 Flanker in the area would have shot it down especially as if reports are to be believed it was 3km away at it's closest and why would it shoot down an airliner over rebel held territory which was flying away from Ukraian airspace, added to which the rebels do not have an airforce as such so why would they have a transport plane?

I agree with DJFridge though, it you believe so strongly in your cause why hide your face, it's almost cowardly as you cannot be held accountable for you actions.

[Heorot]

SU25 is a Frogfoot, not a Flanker. The Frogfoot is a dedicated ground attack aircraft and doesn't carry A2A missiles normally. You wouldn't expect one to be flying at that height anyway.

[daveyrach]

SU25 is a Frogfoot, not a Flanker. The Frogfoot is a dedicated ground attack aircraft and doesn't carry A2A missiles normally. You wouldn't expect one to be flying at that height anyway.

Typo on my part, terribly sorry I meant SU-35 obviously

[Heorot]

Apologies Davey, I'm a bit of a pedant.

[daveyrach]

So am I to be fair and a bit of an aviation nut, surprised I didn't notice myself!

[Spank86]

I agree with DJFridge though, it you believe so strongly in your cause why hide your face, it's almost cowardly as you cannot be held accountable for you actions.
Because you have family perhaps?

[Matt-EUC]

I hate to be skeptical but I don't believe a single word the BBC/Fox News etc say. Something is afoot, I must admit I do tend to think everything is a conspiracy but we would all be deluded if we thout that these huge news companies are there to report for our best interests without bias or influence.


To be fair, I specifically requested the opinions of conspiracy theorists.


Sent via the medium of interpretive dance.

[embee]

I hate to be skeptical but I don't believe a single word the BBC/Fox News etc say. Something is afoot, I must admit I do tend to think everything is a conspiracy but we would all be deluded if we thout that these huge news companies are there to report for our best interests without bias or influence.
Fully agree there. We get fed propaganda by the news media, much of it is probably basically true in essence but the slant put on it is decidedly questionable. The BBC is very US-centric and reports very little Euro news at all. I quite like the Euronews channel, seems a more balanced and believable outfit. Often their report of an event is quite different to the BBC version. The BBC are masters at "creating" news stories, they do an interview, ask a specific question, then report it as though the person has deliberately come out with some contentious statement off their own bat, happens frequently, it's lazy lazy journalism.

The slant put on the Ukraine/Russia issue is completely unbalanced, there is a lot of history and local issues involved, we just get the US approved attitude.

(that's me on the monitored list then).

[Matt-EUC]

(that's me on the monitored list then).


Hardly, the Americans are extremely pro free speech. In any form. You can say anything you feel like, unless it involves committing a crime.


Sent via the medium of interpretive dance.

[Spank86]

Hardly, the Americans are extremely pro free speech. In any form. You can say anything you feel like, unless it involves committing a crime.


Sent via the medium of interpretive dance.
which decade are you living in?

I suppose in a way they want people to say anything but only so they CAN

[PyroUK]

I'm always deeply sceptical about the motives of people who believe so strongly in the rightness of their cause that they feel the need to wear black balaclavas to hide their identities.


Execution squads? Can't fight a cause if you and family are dead

[Mrs DJ Fridge]

Youngest is currently learning about propaganda at school, it is always good to see that despite the necessary bias to our news reports the education system makes them aware of it as a problem.

[Ben.tattooer]

I can't believe in this day and age a passenger plane can be shot down "by accident" regardless of who did it. Let's get this straight, the first Malaysian flight "dissapears". Then a fighter jet gets shot down. Then a passenger plane gets shot down. Then today a passenger plane crash lands and kills another 40 people.

Anyone with half a brain can see that something big is going on, I vote aliens. Discuss.

[PyroUK]

I went with aliens for the first Malay flight, just yoinked out the sky!

[Spank86]

Youngest is currently learning about propaganda at school, it is always good to see that despite the necessary bias to our news reports the education system makes them aware of it as a problem.

Isn't that like a magician showing it's tricks?

[SvNewbie]

I can't believe in this day and age a passenger plane can be shot down "by accident" regardless of who did it. Let's get this straight, the first Malaysian flight "dissapears". Then a fighter jet gets shot down. Then a passenger plane gets shot down. Then today a passenger plane crash lands and kills another 40 people.

Anyone with half a brain can see that something big is going on, I vote aliens. Discuss.

The human brain is very good at seeing patterns, in fact it is so good that it occasionally tries to see a pattern where none exists. Just an tragic few weeks for the aviation industry and those people we've lost.

That being said, just seen this on the news :(

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-28460625

[BanannaMan]

Hardly, the Americans are extremely pro free speech. In any form. You can say anything you feel like, unless it involves committing a crime.




Are you kidding?
They've already admitted to taping the internet, certain words are typed and yep, you're on the list and being looked at.

Of course they claimed to have stopped. :rolleyes:







And now another plane missing this time in Africa. Terrible news.

[Matt-EUC]

It's technically legal. Just like reading your emails. They'll (probably) never open your post though.


Sent via the medium of interpretive dance.

[dizzyblonde]

The human brain is very good at seeing patterns, in fact it is so good that it occasionally tries to see a pattern where none exists. Just an tragic few weeks for the aviation industry and those people we've lost.

That being said, just seen this on the news :(

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-28460625



Do you not think its a bit weird that all of these planes decided to take a slightly off normal change in their flight patterns?


I'm never usually disturbed by coincidences, but I kinda feel like not getting on a plane later this year on my jollies!

[Spank86]

The human brain is very good at seeing patterns, in fact it is so good that it occasionally tries to see a pattern where none exists. Just an tragic few weeks for the aviation industry and those people we've lost.

I wonder how many were lost but not really reported before this happened?

Do you not think its a bit weird that all of these planes decided to take a slightly off normal change in their flight patterns?


I might... IF I knew how common such incidences were.

[SvNewbie]

Do you not think its a bit weird that all of these planes decided to take a slightly off normal change in their flight patterns?


Nope. MH17 was on a perfectly normal route taken by dozens of other planes for months before the incident. As a bit of a airplane geek I have a reasonable understanding of how IFR flight planning works [1].

For commercial airliners there are a dozen different variables which could result in the flight-plan changing from one day to the next, weather, restricted areas being active or congestion being some obvious ones. The flight-plan is normally drawn up by someone from the airlines operations department, at some airports this is even downloaded straight to the aircraft's navigation systems.

The flight-planning would have been carried out with reference to IFR high level charts, these are very detailed in terms of navigation aids, minimum operational altitudes and air traffic control centres. However, they show little detail of anything on the ground, because it's completely unimportant. The person who drew up the flight-plan in all likelihood had no though about the issues in the Ukraine other than possibly checking the notams which indicated 33000ft was a safe altitude.

The pilot simply flew that route. Some idiot who knew how to operate the Buk launcher saw a big aircraft, possibly in the same vicinity as some Ukrainian fighter jets, made the assumption that it was a high value target and fired.

[1] http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/ifr-flying/index.html

[daveyrach]

Nope. MH17 was on a perfectly normal route taken by dozens of other planes for months before the incident. As a bit of a airplane geek I have a reasonable understanding of how IFR flight planning works [1].

For commercial airliners there are a dozen different variables which could result in the flight-plan changing from one day to the next, weather, restricted areas being active or congestion being some obvious ones. The flight-plan is normally drawn up by someone from the airlines operations department, at some airports this is even downloaded straight to the aircraft's navigation systems.

The flight-planning would have been carried out with reference to IFR high level charts, these are very detailed in terms of navigation aids, minimum operational altitudes and air traffic control centres. However, they show little detail of anything on the ground, because it's completely unimportant. The person who drew up the flight-plan in all likelihood had no though about the issues in the Ukraine other than possibly checking the notams which indicated 33000ft was a safe altitude.

The pilot simply flew that route. Some idiot who knew how to operate the Buk launcher saw a big aircraft, possibly in the same vicinity as some Ukrainian fighter jets, made the assumption that it was a high value target and fired.

[1] http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/ifr-flying/index.html

But there are reports that MH17 was 14km of course apparently trying to avoid thunderstorms

[SvNewbie]

Until the wreckage of MH370 is found it's pointless speculating. Most likely a completely normal aviation disaster, fire would be my bet.

As far as AH5017 is concerned being given instructions by ATC is exactly why they are there. You could argue every plane flying over London is off of its normal route, since they are being vectored around to line them up on the approach path with adequate separation.

[SvNewbie]

But there are reports that MH17 was 14km of course apparently trying to avoid thunderstorms

Ah, there it is, clearly someone created a thunderstorm in order to redirect MH17 into the path of the Ukrainian rebels. I can't believe I missed that before ](*,)

[daveyrach]

I think you missed my point, DB was concerned that all these flights are off course, I was merely pointing out that to Joe Bloggs a report that a flight was 14km off course does seem unusual, but for someone like you who understands aviation navigation it is perfectly normal. I don't understand why peple expect everyone to have the same level of understanding as them, I mean unless your into that kinda thing who know what an IFR chart is?

I'm not some conspiracy theorist I beleiveve it was mistaken for a high value target as you say and shot down in error.

[SvNewbie]

Sorry, my post was probably too sarcastic. I blame it on my father who is a bit of a conspiracy nut.

My point in general is that there are lots of operational reasons a flightplan may be different from day to day, and there are dozens of operational reasons the route flown might differ from the plan filed. It's not suspicious.