Gaza and Israel

[EssexDave]

Hey folks,

For someone who is decidedly into History and current affairs, I have to admit I know very little (read nothing) about the conflict going on.

Anybody care to enlighten me?

[PyroUK]

One bunch of ass holes doesn't like another bunch of ass holes and they have decided to bomb the shyte out of each other.

The rest of the world takes what one side says as gospel and backs them up (Israel) despite the fact that they are wounding and killing civilians. Oh and they have bigger guns

[Biker Biggles]

Two tribes competing over the same bit of land/limited resourses results in much bloodshed.Yes there are historical details,but this is much the same as any other conflict throughout history.

[SvNewbie]

I spent way too long reading and watching video's on the history behind it a few weeks ago.

Basically we (as in the British) promised Palestine to 3 different groups during World War II in return for fighting against the Nazi's. After the war a (not particularly fair) dishing out of the country happened.

As soon as the British pulled out of Palestine the state of Israel was formed, and was promptly attacked by 5 different armies on the same day. The Jews fought back and eventually won the Israel Arab war. Through no small part, due to the training the received from the British army.

Since then they have proceeded to occupy far more than the lands originally given to them and have pushed the Palestinians out.

They have turned Gaza into the worlds largest open air prison. Blockaded from land and sea.

Yes, Hamas fire rockets into Israel. However, these are mere fireworks compared to the might of the Israel army. Their American funded missile defence shield prevents what few of these rockets actually go in roughly the right direction from hitting their targets.

In the last 15 years 28 Israelis have died from these rocket attacks. In the current Gaza conflict alone over 1000 Palestinians have died.

If you take away one thing from reading this then let it be that this is not a war of equals.

[dizzyblonde]

Occupation and Ethnic Cleansing. Pure and simple.


Very reminiscent of the 1974 invasion of Cyprus, on many levels.


Gaza is a similar size to Leeds, in fact I believe Leeds to be slightly bigger. Israel is about a third of the size of England. Gaza is inhabited by about 1.85 million people. Average age is about 30yrs(or there abouts according to one report). Kind of puts the land and population into perspective a little.


Israel have far more sophisticated weaponary than Hamas do, perfectly obvious by the casualty statistics. As above Gaza is totally blocked in for those casualties to escape. Egypt have blocked their crossings, I think this was due to the amount of Syrian refugees(might be wrong), Palestinians are far from going to get fair passage through Israel, so where do they go? Swim?

[timwilky]

A squabble between neighbours.

You reap what you sow. It is a no win situation. Lots of wrongs on both sides.

No one has a moral high ground on this.

[dizzyblonde]

A squabble between neighbours.

You reap what you sow. It is a no win situation. Lots of wrongs on both sides.

No one has a moral high ground on this.



The only people who lose, are the people who are trying to live their lives. Unfortunately, the religious politicians/military running their countries feel it is their god given right to use their people as pawns.

[SvNewbie]

A squabble between neighbours.

You reap what you sow. It is a no win situation. Lots of wrongs on both sides.

No one has a moral high ground on this.

I'm trying to express how opposed to that view I am without offending you. Honestly, if you read into the history I don't see any way a reasonable person could believe the Palestinian situations is a squabble between neighbours.

[Matt-EUC]

War is stupid. Needlessly killing thousands of people to gain what is ultimately very little.

What is happening is akin to throwing water balloons at a brick wall. You can throw as many as you like, but you're still the only ones getting wet.


Sent via the medium of interpretive dance.

[Mark_h]

mR1LGoNg5p4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR1LGoNg5p4)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR1LGoNg5p4

[Matt-EUC]

Can we get a TL;DR please mark? I'm at work and can't watch the vid.


Sent via the medium of interpretive dance.

[carelesschucca]

http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2014/07/israel-s-assault-gaza-intensifies-it-not-anti-semitic-say-not-my-name

I watched that video over the weekend, I also read this sad article.

[timwilky]

I'm trying to express how opposed to that view I am without offending you. Honestly, if you read into the history I don't see any way a reasonable person could believe the Palestinian situations is a squabble between neighbours.


Actually, I strongly believe Israel was wrong to hold onto land seized after the wars in 48,66 and 74 (might be out by a year or two). They had might on their side and despite the argument that the areas could be demilitarised to prevent subsequent attacks they decided to hold and illegally settle the regions. Denying the true owners the right to live in peace on their own land.

The Palestinians have reacted to the provocation (Not unsurprisingly) the attacks that have provoked Israeli aggression over the past 20 plus years have lead to a situation where Israel feels it is obliged to pander to its own internal ultra religious right wing by applying the same philosophy, tools and techniques seen in the Warsaw Ghetto. :- concentrate your victim into a single area. Fence them in, starve them. And then dispose of them.

The rest of the world, should have recognised the Palestinian territories as an independent nation state, that way Isreali aggression would be seen as an attack on a soveriegn nation and univerally condemned, UN sanctions impossed etc. similarly Hamas rocket attacks would be seen as an attack on a sovereign nation and sanctions imposed.

Britain/France drew up artificial borders, during ww1 and post WWII zionist migration growing into the 48 war of independance etc is the root cause of territorial squables. US support for Israel means anything in the UN will be vetoed.

So no win for anyone, lots of losses. Nobody can hold their head high.

[dizzyblonde]

The rest of the world, should have recognised the Palestinian territories as an independent nation state, that way Isreali aggression would be seen as an attack on a soveriegn nation and univerally condemned, UN sanctions impossed etc. similarly Hamas rocket attacks would be seen as an attack on a sovereign nation and sanctions imposed.

Britain/France drew up artificial borders, during ww1 and post WWII zionist migration growing into the 48 war of independance etc is the root cause of territorial squables. US support for Israel means anything in the UN will be vetoed.

So no win for anyone, lots of losses. Nobody can hold their head high.



Unfortunately the rest of the world wouldn't be bothered about the sovereign rights of an independent state, nor be too strict with sanctions either.
Again....see Cyprus for this utterly ridiculous problem that the world dare not intervene in, apart from make a few correct noises on an anniversary of occupation of an EU country, an Independent country. Britain are very good at drawing up borders and allowing others to take advantage of that, then leaving them to fight over it.
The world won't do jack jack plop over Israel bullying Gaza.....its all about the gas folks.

[Matt-EUC]

May I reiterate my statement.

War is stupid.


Sent via the medium of interpretive dance.

[dizzyblonde]

May I reiterate my statement.

War is stupid.


Sent via the medium of interpretive dance.



Particularly those wars stamped as 'religious', or between the 'culturally diverse'.
The real every day people, do NOT cause war. Its the fanatics at the top.
This is not every day Jewish people of Israel vs every day Muslims of Palestine.



There are then those caught in the middle, who give shelter, regardless of who you are.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-greek-orthodox-church-of-st-porphyrios-becomes-a-small-refuge-in-the-heart-of-gazas-bloodletting-9631777.html

[Matt-EUC]

Hence "war is stupid."


Sent via the medium of interpretive dance.

[Luckypants]

<snip>by applying the same philosophy, tools and techniques seen in the Warsaw Ghetto. :- concentrate your victim into a single area. Fence them in, starve them. And then dispose of them

Tim, I had not made that connection but the parallels are shocking. How can one people who suffered such terrible persecution inflict the same persecution on another? I ****ing despair of this world.

[dizzyblonde]

Tim, I had not made that connection but the parallels are shocking. How can one people who suffered such terrible persecution inflict the same persecution on another? I ****ing despair of this world.



The first few sentences illustrate this very well and also around 8 mins


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W00RAwxL7Oo#t=60

W00RAwxL7Oo#t

[Bobbydigital36]

How can one people who suffered such terrible persecution inflict the same persecution on another? I ****ing despair of this world.

This is the same issue I just can't understand, I guess they either don't care or somehow believe the "enemy" doesn't feel pain like they do.

[Spank86]

I spent way too long reading and watching video's on the history behind it a few weeks ago.

Basically we (as in the British) promised Palestine to 3 different groups during World War II in return for fighting against the Nazi's. After the war a (not particularly fair) dishing out of the country happened.

As soon as the British pulled out of Palestine the state of Israel was formed, and was promptly attacked by 5 different armies on the same day. The Jews fought back and eventually won the Israel Arab war. Through no small part, due to the training the received from the British army.



You missed out that the partitioning never actually happened, the Israelis actually seized the country by force prior to the time the partition was to be implemented.

[Spank86]

War is stupid. Needlessly killing thousands of people to gain what is ultimately very little.
Actually prolonging the conflict prolongs a Jewish Israel.

Look at the birth rates. A one state solution with integrated Islamic/Jewish peoples in Israel would result in a large arab/muslim majority within a few generations.

A two state solution would upset the fanatic elements in Israel and never be accepted by Hamas so wouldn't stop the attacks only allow them to be more effective so thats probably out too.

Tim, I had not made that connection but the parallels are shocking. How can one people who suffered such terrible persecution inflict the same persecution on another? I ****ing despair of this world.

A fair few of the people in charge of the Soviet "purges" were Jewish.

Apparently when you commit atrocities you merely give others ideas.

[dizzyblonde]

Theres also the little televised problem brewing in Libya


http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/07/29/uk-libya-security-idUKKBN0FY1E420140729




With many countries closing their embassies and telling their staff to get out of Libya.


The world is going mad!

[Balky001]

The world has gone mad!


Corrected for you DB :)

[Red ones]

It's also about Twitter and Facebook. For a long time people thought Twitter and FB were about pokes and photos of your lunch. It's really about getting stories told and fast.
In the past Israel controlled access and information on the events, but now news from the West Bank and Gaza comes out and instantly - before the alternative version is created. Suddenly we are finding out what is happening in real time. This time we are receiving news from the enclaves faster and with photos and video.

Many of us like pokes and enjoy photos of your lunch and have set up a system to receive these tittilations in our pocket and all of a sudden we are getting shocking images and running narrative on civilian injuries in a war zone. It is this John Prescott picked up and compared with 1933.

[davepreston]

simple reason for Israel getting yank backup - they are one of the few friends we (the west) have in the area
Cyprus well we did get involved hence the no mans land (every been its totally trippy) and the constant military presence there mainly british forces
as for Israel and Palastine well that aint going to end anytime soon and certainly not with facebook posts

[Red Herring]

Just go on Google Earth and you'll get a fairly good idea of what the problem is. Israel stands out as being well organized with plenty of well irrigated laid out fields and infrastructure, the Palestinians on the other hand are the mass of disorganized buildings with the odd bit of barren dessert between them....

Basically Israel has benefited from a strong government, plenty of investment and an organized society, the Palestinians have bred like rabbits and have no means of supporting themselves. I do concede that the Israelis haven't made it easy for their neighbours though.

[carelesschucca]

I do concede that the Israelis haven't made it easy for their neighbours though.
yeah, I'd say hemming your neighbours in, stopping basically all trade routes and bombing the hell out of them is making things a little difficult for the Gaza Strip.

[Red Herring]

My middle east history isn't brilliant but hasn't the Gaza strip existed pretty much from day one in the 40's? I didn't think it was a case of the Israelis driving them into the corner so to speak. The fact that the two respective governments haven't been able to work out some trade routes since is I am sure the fault of both of them, however just because the Israelis have got their act together better than just about every other country around them shouldn't be making them the bad guys here. Everybody else has been far to busy fighting amongst themselves.

[dizzyblonde]

Cyprus well we did get involved hence the no mans land (every been its totally trippy) and the constant military presence there mainly british forces

The British helped instigate it. Plenty of documentation to back that fact up. That 'green line ' was drawn by a British chap in the 1950s. So called because of the coloured pencil he happened to have in his hand.
40,000 Turkish troops illegally sit in the north. I've been through no man's land to cross Nicosia. It's not nice, especially when you have to travel like a tourist to your own blooming property.
Speaking of, the acres of ancestral land and buildings (if anything) will finally be documented later this year. I'll be taking photographic evidence of what is sadly left.
I've a map of every family property pre 74.


Occupations leave refugees that have to set up home elsewhere. A lot of Brits scream and shout about refugees coming here, of any sort. If Britain didn't help create them in the first place by sticking their noses in, they wouldn't be displaced. Families get strewn around the globe, and they feel they never belong. Snubbed through no fault of their own.
It's a subject I've taken great interest in, in recent years. It's certainly made me feel particularly strongly about Palestinians.

[MisterTommyH]

My middle east history isn't brilliant... The fact that the two respective governments haven't been able to work out some trade routes since is I am sure the fault of both of them, however just because the Israelis have got their act together better than just about every other country around them shouldn't be making them the bad guys here.

Wow!

All trade in and out of Gaza is controlled via Israeli checkpoints, and can be closed at their choosing. No building materials are permitted to be imported (at least in recent years). I can't remember where I got this next bit, but I'm sure I've heard about there being a calculation of how many palestinians there were in Gaza multiplied by the required daily calorific intake and the resultant being the amount of food that was allowed to pass the check points.

A few years ago an independent NGO was reporting how the number of pampers being allowed in was restricted

And remember this isn't two different governments in two countries - there is no Palestinian state. This is essentially us, ring fencing Wales, blockading the ports and carefully calculating what gets past Offa's dyke. Except for the fact that it's the size of one city, with four times the people.

Linky thing just to indicate it's not simply a case of not having established trade routes (http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/ngos-gaza-civilians-continue-suffer-2010-11-30)

"The so-called 'easing' of the Gaza blockade does not change the fact that there’s still a cruel and illegal blockade collectively punishing the entire civilian population. The only real easing has been the easing of pressure on the Israeli authorities to end this cruel and illegal practice."

[Mrs DJ Fridge]

Whether right or wrong, and I feel that my own opinion is unimportant here, Israel will eventually 'win' the Gaza argument because they have the infrastructure and money from America. They have so much American support that no one will be able to stop them, and yes the Palestine residents do have Facebook, but Israel has the backing of most of the Western media.

[dizzyblonde]

Whether right or wrong, and I feel that my own opinion is unimportant here, Israel will eventually 'win' the Gaza argument because they have the infrastructure and money from America. They have so much American support that no one will be able to stop them, and yes the Palestine residents do have Facebook, but Israel has the backing of most of the Western media.

This is quite the horrible reality. I read today that a lot of British MPs get donations from Israel. Hold on, I shall find the link.

[dizzyblonde]

...and when countries 'gift' each other donations, there's always strings attached
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/nov/16/pro-israel-lobby-conservatives-channel4-dispatches

[Red Herring]

Wow!

All trade in and out of Gaza is controlled via Israeli checkpoints, and can be closed at their choosing........ etc

Given the open hostility Hamas has towards Israel are you suggesting they should just have an open border?

I'm not trying to take sides here but whether or not we agree with what went on back in the 40's, 50's or even 60's it happened and nothing will undo that. Yes Israel has become the force it is now because it has enjoyed Western support, however they have also been extremely organized and displayed a unity not evident anywhere else in the Middle East. Israel doesn't want the Gaza strip, they just want Hamas to stop attacking them. Hamas on the other hand refuse to recognize Israel and want them out (like that is ever going to happen).

If Wales kept bombing England instead of just sending us speeding tickets I'm pretty sure we'd blockade their border to!

[DJFridge]

How can one people who suffered such terrible persecution inflict the same persecution on another?

That is actually the easiest part to explain. Simple human nature, sadly. In the same way that many bullied kids become bullys themselves and many abusers were once abused themselves, a nation that feels historically ill treated and surrounded by enemies is going to feel the need to lash out.

[Bibio]

if i'm not mistaken Israel also control the fresh water supply and utilities.

[MisterTommyH]

Given the open hostility Hamas has towards Israel are you suggesting they should just have an open border?

I'm not trying to take sides here but whether or not we agree with what went on back in the 40's, 50's or even 60's it happened and nothing will undo that. Yes Israel has become the force it is now because it has enjoyed Western support, however they have also been extremely organized and displayed a unity not evident anywhere else in the Middle East. Israel doesn't want the Gaza strip, they just want Hamas to stop attacking them. Hamas on the other hand refuse to recognize Israel and want them out (like that is ever going to happen).

If Wales kept bombing England instead of just sending us speeding tickets I'm pretty sure we'd blockade their border to!

I'm just saying it's Chicken and Egg. Surely it's understandable that 1.5m people pushed into such a small place might support the less savoury elements of their society pushing back against their oppressors (and it's by no mean's the majority of those dying who are fighting back).

Also, with regard to Israel not wanting the Gaza strip.... Is that only because it's the last area left? The areas referred to as Israeli Settlements are outside the lands originally granted and within areas originally given to Palestine. In the 40s, 50s, 60s etc was it said that I'm sure that Israel won't want any more that they've already been granted (it's a rhetorical question... I don't know).

I honestly try to remain neutral in these things, but with this one I have to admit that I struggle. There are so obviously faults on both sides, but as had already been said, this is far from a war of equals.

To change the analogy... during Northern Ireland - I'm sure there were oppressions, but I don't recall basic human necessities being stopped. And that didn't end by any kind of mass offensive. It took diplomacy and concessions on both sides.

[Spank86]

Occupations leave refugees that have to set up home elsewhere. A lot of Brits scream and shout about refugees coming here, of any sort. If Britain didn't help create them in the first place by sticking their noses in, they wouldn't be displaced. Families get strewn around the globe, and they feel they never belong. Snubbed through no fault of their own.
It's a subject I've taken great interest in, in recent years. It's certainly made me feel particularly strongly about Palestinians.

Without intervention the whole of Cyprus would likely be Turkish by now.

And probably none of it would have been Turkish if there hadn't been a (Greek-cypriot) military coup in the first place.

As for Israel/Palestine. The partition line's placing is largely irrelevant since it never happened, they all kicked off and took what they could get before the partition could be implemented.

[Red Herring]

Watching BBC 2 at the moment, Children of Syria. It's no wonder things never get resolved there when you have a nine year old child saying "it's better to start a revolution and die than to live a bad life under the regime..." whilst sitting proudly next to his armed teenage (just) brother. They haven't got a chance.

[Sid Squid]

It's crap, and I can't see what will change it. It's painfully simplistic to say that they should talk rather than shoot each other, the problem lies in that there are two entirely exclusive viewpoints - they don't merely disagree.
Israel's treatment of the Palestinians would be difficult to defend, but think on this; if Israel had it all their own way, they would undoubtedly colonise even more territory. If the Palestinians got their way there would be no Jewish homeland - no Israel at all, it would become expunged from the map. The Israelis know this well, which I think is a factor in their unwillingness to deal with the Palestinians, and a part of their seeming siege mentality too.
Understanding the above makes it hard for me to find my sympathies fall much to either side.
I must add that it is utterly, utterly pointless even discussing how the circumstance arose, or finding and blaming those in history who had a hand in shaping the situation present now. One must deal with what history has made, not complain that it is made so.

[Supervox]

. . . This is essentially us, ring fencing Wales, blockading the ports and carefully calculating what gets past Offa's dyke. Except for the fact that it's the size of one city, with four times the people.

Your analogy is only relevant if you add that the Welsh started lobbing rockets aimed intentionally at residential areas our way.

How would YOU respond to that?

[Luckypants]

Israel doesn't want the Gaza strip, they just want Hamas to stop attacking them.

Oh yes they do. This war is all about what all wars are about - natural resources, wealth and power. Gaza has significant gas reserves, Israel has an energy crisis. It is that simple this time. Google 'Gaza Gas Reserves' or 'British Gas Gaza', you'll soon find out. This is not widely reported in the Western media because then good ol' 'Murica would be seen to support an aggressive regime rather than one "protecting its people". Here's a starter for 10

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/jul/09/israel-war-gaza-palestine-natural-gas-energy-crisis

The Israeli action is appalling and should be loudly condemned by all.

[SvNewbie]

Your analogy is only relevant if you add that the Welsh started lobbing rockets aimed intentionally at residential areas our way.

How would YOU respond to that?

It's hard to know until you are in that situation, but I'd hope my response wouldn't be to kill thousands of welsh children.

Hopefully I'd realise that far more people die in car crashes, accidents in the home, house fires, criminal murders etc.

[Supervox]

Oh yes they do. This war is all about what all wars are about - natural resources, wealth and power. Gaza has significant gas reserves, Israel has an energy crisis. It is that simple this time. Google 'Gaza Gas Reserves' or 'British Gas Gaza', you'll soon find out. This is not widely reported in the Western media because then good ol' 'Murica would be seen to support an aggressive regime rather than one "protecting its people". Here's a starter for 10

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/jul/09/israel-war-gaza-palestine-natural-gas-energy-crisis

The Israeli action is appalling and should be loudly condemned by all.

I will NEVER condemn (loudly or otherwise) a nation for defending it's people against terrorists & if you do then you should be ashamed of yourself!

[dizzyblonde]

Oh yes they do. This war is all about what all wars are about - natural resources, wealth and power. Gaza has significant gas reserves, Israel has an energy crisis. It is that simple this time. Google 'Gaza Gas Reserves' or 'British Gas Gaza', you'll soon find out. This is not widely reported in the Western media because then good ol' 'Murica would be seen to support an aggressive regime rather than one "protecting its people". Here's a starter for 10

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/jul/09/israel-war-gaza-palestine-natural-gas-energy-crisis

The Israeli action is appalling and should be loudly condemned by all.


Like I've said a dozen times over, in the Ukraine thread, this thread etc.....


.....Its all about the gas. Theres a great many things going on in the Mediterranean world at the moment, and it all revolves around the gas. As you well know, I read more news from abroad than I do from here .

[Spank86]

I will NEVER condemn (loudly or otherwise) a nation for defending it's people against terrorists & if you do then you should be ashamed of yourself!

Without "terrorists" we'd all be speaking....


wait for it....


French.

[Luckypants]

I will NEVER condemn (loudly or otherwise) a nation for defending it's people against terrorists & if you do then you should be ashamed of yourself!Rather depends on which side of the rocket lobbing you are doesn't it? Those in Gaza have been illegally blockaded by Israel for 7 years, they are starved of raw materials and often of food. The Israelis even limit supplies of nappies FFS! How would you respond to that? So Hamas fire rockets of limited capability at Israel....

The Israeli response has been massively disproportionate. Since the current hostilities started the dead have been overwhelmingly on the Palestinian side.

The conflict has killed more than 1,060 people in Gaza, more than 70 percent of them civilians, according to the United Nations. Israel has lost 53 soldiers, the largest toll since its 2006 war with Lebanon. Hamas mortar and rocket attacks from Gaza have killed two Israeli civilians and a Thai worker in Israel. - The Washington Post, not known for it's Palestinian sympathies.

Now who exactly is terrorising who?

[dizzyblonde]

Rather depends on which side of the rocket lobbing you are doesn't it?


The conflict has killed more than 1,060 people in Gaza, more than 70 percent of them civilians, according to the United Nations. Israel has lost 53 soldiers, the largest toll since its 2006 war with Lebanon. Hamas mortar and rocket attacks from Gaza have killed two Israeli civilians and a Thai worker in Israel.

It helps when you have this

Iron Dome, Israel’s US-funded, billion-dollar missile shield.

[Supervox]

It helps when you have this

...Those in Gaza have been illegally blockaded by Israel for 7 years, they are starved of raw materials and often of food. The Israelis even limit supplies of nappies FFS! How would you respond to that? So Hamas fire rockets of limited capability at Israel....

I assume the above was an error on your part and what you actually meant to type was

"...blockaded by Israel and Egypt..."

Curious isn't it that there's no news reports of rockets being fired at the Egyptians whilst approximately 1600 have been fired at Israel?

[Spank86]

Curious isn't it that there's no news reports of rockets being fired at the Egyptians whilst approximately 1600 have been fired at Israel?

On the one hand The Sinai desert isn't generally considered a target rich area on the other Egypt's actions aren't illegal. They've merely closed their border.

Israel are actively preventing supplies entering from sea as well as land (obviously because they don't want weapons to get in).

[SvNewbie]

Or that they have historically been allied with Egypt, or that Egypt has continued to condemn Israel's actions in Gaza and supports an independent Palestinian state.

[Red Herring]

Oh yes they do. This war is all about what all wars are about - natural resources, wealth and power. Gaza has significant gas reserves, Israel has an energy crisis. It is that simple this time. Google 'Gaza Gas Reserves' or 'British Gas Gaza', you'll soon find out. This is not widely reported in the Western media because then good ol' 'Murica would be seen to support an aggressive regime rather than one "protecting its people". Here's a starter for 10

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/jul/09/israel-war-gaza-palestine-natural-gas-energy-crisis

The Israeli action is appalling and should be loudly condemned by all.

I wasn't aware of that and it's an interesting read. It still doesn't change the perspective though. In essence what Israel is saying is that if Gaza was allowed to develop it's gas fields then the money raised would be used by Hamas to fund it's war against Israel, and not for the benefit/development of Palestine.

Also worth noting is that the fields appear to be on borders of various other countries so even if Israel overran Gaza and seized control they would then have to take on Egypt, Lebanon etc etc to get control of the oil and gas.

[yorkie_chris]

I will NEVER condemn (loudly or otherwise) a nation for defending it's people against terrorists & if you do then you should be ashamed of yourself!

If you lived there... you'd be a terrorist as well.
Cos they've got absolutely no other way to hit back.

Pick handles against smart bombs.

[Supervox]

If you lived there... you'd be a terrorist as well.
Cos they've got absolutely no other way to hit back.

Pick handles against smart bombs.

Chris - don't presume to tell me what I would or wouldn't do.

You say "pick handles against smart bombs" - a good soundbite (your own or read elsewhere?), but what we're actually talking about here are rockets ranging from 60mm to 333mm with warheads ranging from 0.5kg to 150Kg - hardly 'pick handles' are they?

You also say that it's the only way for them to 'hit back' - hit back against what?

The blockade? The reason for blockade in the first palce was to prevent the continued importation of weapons by Hamas for use against Israel.

[Matt-EUC]

Chris - don't presume to tell me what I would or wouldn't do.



You say "pick handles against smart bombs" - a good soundbite (your own or read elsewhere?), but what we're actually talking about here are rockets ranging from 60mm to 333mm with warheads ranging from 0.5kg to 150Kg - hardly 'pick handles' are they?



You also say that it's the only way for them to 'hit back' - hit back against what?



The blockade? The reason for blockade in the first palce was to prevent the continued importation of weapons by Hamas for use against Israel.


This.


Sent via the medium of interpretive dance.

[SvNewbie]

You say "pick handles against smart bombs" - a good soundbite (your own or read elsewhere?), but what we're actually talking about here are rockets ranging from 60mm to 333mm with warheads ranging from 0.5kg to 150Kg - hardly 'pick handles' are they?


Which have killed 28 people in the last 15 years. In context, about as effective at killing people as lightening strikes in the UK.


You also say that it's the only way for them to 'hit back' - hit back against what?


I guess they might be a little miffed about the continued occupation of Palestinian territories in violation of international law.

[SvNewbie]

This.

Matt, if you're input to the conversation is shorter than your signature it's probably not worth adding.

[Matt-EUC]

How else do you propose I show my agreement without retuning everything he just said? I agree with him and wanted to put forward my agreement.


Sent via the medium of interpretive dance.

[yorkie_chris]

Chris - don't presume to tell me what I would or wouldn't do.

You say "pick handles against smart bombs" - a good soundbite (your own or read elsewhere?), but what we're actually talking about here are rockets ranging from 60mm to 333mm with warheads ranging from 0.5kg to 150Kg - hardly 'pick handles' are they?

You also say that it's the only way for them to 'hit back' - hit back against what?

The blockade? The reason for blockade in the first palce was to prevent the continued importation of weapons by Hamas for use against Israel.

Alright, what would you do then?

Good soundbite, paraphrased from Spike Milligans autobiography I suppose...
And yes, while I agree you wouldn't want a rocket on your head... they are about as much use as a pick handle against the weapons of the 21st century that Isreal are well equipped with.

Hit back against the general state of affairs, the Israeli apparatus.

My point is the absolute desperation of their situation, I'm not saying the actions they take are right... just the "why".

[dizzyblonde]

Hey folks,

For someone who is decidedly into History and current affairs, I have to admit I know very little (read nothing) about the conflict going on.

Anybody care to enlighten me?


Quite a simple explanation can be found here.
Suitable for all, even without an FB account.
It may not be totally factually correct, but the general jist is in there.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152987268819196

[dizzyblonde]

Sorry Dizz - but this offers no explanation at all - just one man's viewpoint.

Check out his own page - I find it interesting that although he shares the story in Huffington Post that UNRWA Official Chris Gunness broke down on live TV following the shelling of the UN School which was being used as a shelter, he fails to mention the other news reports regarding the fact that the same UNRWA Official condemned 'those responsible' following the discovery that weapons had been stored within another UN school Gaza.



I aren't interested in a persons personal page. This link actually came from this page, who knows where the original came from.


https://www.facebook.com/OccupyBufferZone?fref=ts
For interests of Dizzy people like myself, who aren't totally sure of the whys or where for, the simplicity of the short film allows me to further expand my knowledge.
All research begins somewhere. I prefer to try a neutral beginning.

[EssexDave]

Thanks for all the input folks, it's made for some very interesting reading.

The whole situation is a complete mess, and it doesn't help that the media are playing their usual game.

I'm not particularly a Russel Brand fan, but I do have to admit he does on occasion have some quite sensible ideas.

This is one of those...

V_m98GAdqKM

[Spank86]

At the end of the day whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation there's a whole bunch of kids and civilians killed by Israeli missiles and a very few Israeli kids and civilians killed by Palestinian or rather by Hamas missiles.

It's not a good situation and as a legitimate sovereign government Israel has a duty to find a better way to deal with the situation than causing massive amounts of collateral damage whilst apparently doing very little to actually hit the terrorists.

[dizzyblonde]

I have to say, I really don't like Russell Brand, but lately I am certainly warming to his dissecting of many popular debates and issues.


One thing I will say, I won't be one to agree with anything Israel does. Apart from stopping what is humanely wrong.
It can be said, well they started this, and those did that, and so forth. Propaganda is a very powerful tool and it aims to split a view point.


My view won't be moved. Innocents do not deserve this.
Two sides of my family have fled invading and occupying forces in their own lands and homes. Living, breathing people who have survived things that us here on the forum can only read about.


People being harmed by soldiers, bombs, tanks, missiles, in my book should not be happening, and should stop. NOW.

:rant:

[Matt-EUC]

For those who'd like to read the opinions of (possibly) more informed people, please Click Here (https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/israel-ground-invasion-of-gaza-has-begun.216543/)




May even be a nice place for Supervox to hang out as well. They even have a weapons sub-forum.


Sent via the medium of interpretive dance.

[dizzyblonde]

For those who'd like to read the opinions of (possibly) more informed people, please Click Here (https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/israel-ground-invasion-of-gaza-has-begun.216543/)




May even be a nice place for Supervox to hang out as well. They even have a weapons sub-forum.


Sent via the medium of interpretive dance.


Its ironic you choose to use the page with this article included
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkish-pm-slams-silence-of-muslim-states-on-gaza.aspx?pageID=238&nID=69284&NewsCatID=338


The hypocritical Erdogan, who condemns the behaviour of Israel, whilst his own country has committed the murder and ethnic cleansing of other people. Invading and occupying lands that do not belong to the Turks.


In the time after the Turkish invasion of the 20th July 1974 in Cyprus his country killed almost 6000 people and made a further 2000 disappear in mass graves, down wells, raped and destroyed religious buildings of a civilisation almost as old as time itself. Exporting people from the mainland to change the ethnicity of an island, which to this date is still happening.


http://cyprus-mail.com/2014/07/29/cyprus-at-the-disposal-of-international-criminal-court-over-turkish-illegal-settlers/


Erdogan who bans twitter because hes a paranoid nutter, his own Deputy only yesterday said Women of Turkey should not smile in public, which has begun a net wide protest by men and women.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/turkish-women-defy-deputy-pm-laughter
Erdogan who put the thumbscrews on peaceful protest against the destruction of a green area for an ottoman style building of his choosing...Gezi Park.


He and his 40,000 troops should get out of Cyprus and hand back what belongs to the true owners, takes his unwanted illegal settlers with them and admits Turkey was responsible for the genocide of Armenia.






Of course he has an interest in Palestine, his government has been supplying and paying Hamas. It is widely known he is a staunch supporter.

[Matt-EUC]

The thread has over 1000 posts. People have brought up the Turk subject.


Sent via the medium of interpretive dance.

[Spank86]

The hypocritical Erdogan, who condemns the behaviour of Israel, whilst his own country has committed the murder and ethnic cleansing of other people. Invading and occupying lands that do not belong to the Turks.

The whole of Turkey is lands Invaded and occupied which didn't belong to the Turks, I'm not sure who the rightful ruler of the Eastern Roman empire is though.

[EssexDave]

Sean Hannity - A special kind of stupid. Even if you ignore the subject matter, Sean Hannity and the female thing on this show are ridiculous and do not deal with any of the issues...


V_-4WtHWYfwo


http://youtu.be/_-4WtHWYfwo

[Ch00]

Youtube link not working

[EssexDave]

Link put in in case video still isn't working

[MisterTommyH]

I have to say that I like the way that the Fox team (and certain posters on here) label those who don't agree with them as ignorant (or less informed). Because they can't possibly see how you've seen the same information as them and come to a different conclusion.

[Balky001]

I watched that Hannity response on the train home. I'm not sure if he is arrogant, ignorant or just plain evil.

[Red Herring]

Alright, what would you do then?.....


How about stop firing missiles against a country that is well enough organized and equipped to be able to shoot the vast majority of them down before they reach their target, thus achieving their principal aim of protecting their people from harm. After that you could consider getting rid of the people who want to fire the missiles and elect a replacement government that is going to develop your countries natural resources and engage in peaceful trade with your neighbours thus bringing prosperity and peace to your nation.

Is that enough to be getting on with....?

[SvNewbie]

How about stop firing missiles against a country that is well enough organized and equipped to be able to shoot the vast majority of them down before they reach their target, thus achieving their principal aim of protecting their people from harm. After that you could consider getting rid of the people who want to fire the missiles and elect a replacement government that is going to develop your countries natural resources and engage in peaceful trade with your neighbours thus bringing prosperity and peace to your nation.

Is that enough to be getting on with....?

Why didn't the British cease hostilities against Nazi Germany, establish pieceful trade and live happily ever after? Because humans have an innate sense of right and wrong perhaps?

Even if you accept UN resolution 181 as a fair division of Palestine it is hard to argue that their continued occupation of Jerusalem and the west bank doesn't violate the 4th Geneva convention.

Why is the Palestine response to Israel any different from that of the IRA (who killed over a hundred English men, women and children)? And if its not that different why wasn't the British response to the IRA to engage in collective punishment killing thousands of civilians?

[dizzyblonde]

3.5 hrs after a ceasefire, Israel has 'resumed operations ' by using force with tanks.

[ophic]

3.5 hrs after a ceasefire, Israel has 'resumed operations ' by using force with tanks.
Because the rockets kept firing, perchance? Just a guess but it's been reported many times before over so many years I can't remember.

[PyroUK]

Apparently an Israeli troop was kidnapped. Had an alert on bbc news app but is was "breaking" so was just a headline. Not been able to get further info yet

[Sid Squid]

Why didn't the British cease hostilities against Nazi Germany...

Why is the Palestine response to Israel any different from that of the IRA...
Err... What?

I genuinely cannot manage the mental gymnastics necessary to draw any parallel whatsoever between the three conflicts to which you refer.

Really quite baffled by this post.

[Bibio]

marmite is the answer.

[Red Herring]

Err... What?

I genuinely cannot manage the mental gymnastics necessary to draw any parallel whatsoever between the three conflicts to which you refer.

Really quite baffled by this post.

Glad it wasn't just me....

WW2 was about world domination, without getting into the morals of carpet bombing this was two side of equal destructive capabilities slowly persuading the other they were going to win...

This is not about being fair, this is about what would I do that is best for the Palestine people.

The UK IRA thing could get out of control here, lets stick with the IRA being a terrorist organization that wanted an "invading" neighbouring force out of their country, Hamas on the other hand want the destruction of neighbouring force. That is two completely different scenarios if you are the neighbouring force.

In short I think Israel could walk into Gaza anytime they want and completely take over. They don't because that isn't what they want and they would lose a lot of support if they did. Hamas on the other hand don't have any chance whatsoever of ever defeating Israel and by prolonging the "war" all they are doing is bringing continued death and suffering to their people. A responsible government in that position surrenders and gets the best deal they can. A bit like Germany and Japan did in 1945 if you want history comparisons, or do you think we were wrong for bullying them into submission as well?

[ophic]

A bit like Germany and Japan did in 1945 if you want history comparisons, or do you think we were wrong for bullying them into submission as well?
Oh gawd don't bring that into it! We'll be "discussing" the US motives and justification of their nuclear strike forevermore!

[Red Herring]

Yeah, sorry. Still, they seem to have come out of it OK.... or is that going to start a Brit bike v Jap bike thread!

[davepreston]

Why is the Palestine response to Israel any different from that of the IRA (who killed over a hundred English men, women and children)? And if its not that different why wasn't the British response to the IRA to engage in collective punishment killing thousands of civilians?

Leave well alone, trust me leave this WELL ALONE

[SvNewbie]

Leave well alone, trust me leave this WELL ALONE

Apologies Dave I didn't mean to draw the conversation down that path, the only point I was trying to make is that it is that the British response didn't involve killing thousands of civilians in collective punishment for the crimes of a few.

[SvNewbie]

Err... What?

I genuinely cannot manage the mental gymnastics necessary to draw any parallel whatsoever between the three conflicts to which you refer.

Really quite baffled by this post.

Your right, I'd had too many beers. As above the point I was trying to make poorly is that carpet bombing the place wouldn't have been a reasonable response. Not trying to compare the origins or merits of both conflicts.

[Sid Squid]

I'd had too many beers.
You, sir, are a gentleman - I greatly admire your candour!

:)

[MisterTommyH]

They don't because that isn't what they want and they would lose a lot of support if they did.

I don't believe that those statements are mutually exclusive. It could well be that Israel DO want to do that, but still don't because they know exactly where the tipping point is, and that that would lose them most if not all support.

I don't pretend to know what Israels motivation is, just that it could be as above, and that I don't like the continuing reports of deaths of non-combatents.

[SvNewbie]

This is not about being fair, this is about what would I do that is best for the Palestine people?

I think fairness is exactly what it is all about. Until there is some deal which is fair to the Palestinian people then I think support for the radical factions will not stop.

The international community needs to stop paying lip service to condemning Israel's operations in the Gaza strip and the west bank and put in place meaningful sanctions.

They then need the kind of international support given to Germany in the years after the war to rebuild their country.

Of course, the cynic in me thinks it's too far away for anyone to care enough.

[Spank86]

We could send troops in, push Israel back and set up a real government and working country in Gaza.

It might get messy but it's certainly possible in a physical sense.

What happens then?

Do the people and government of Gaza use their newfound strength and relative prosperity to coexist peacefully with Israel or does their ability to ship in supplies and economic improvement simply allow more and better weapons to attack Israel?

[Bibio]

We could send troops in, push Israel back and set up a real government and working country in Gaza.

It might get messy but it's certainly possible in a physical sense.

What happens then?

Do the people and government of Gaza use their newfound strength and relative prosperity to coexist peacefully with Israel or does their ability to ship in supplies and economic improvement simply allow more and better weapons to attack Israel?

the west dont want peace in the middle east.

[SvNewbie]

Its definitely a possibility that they'd use their new found prosperity to buy weapons and attack Israel. But then they'd be dealt with as any other member of the international community, and would have little to complain about when Israel strikes back.

But the status quo is not going to bring piece to the region, yet another generation of children growing up with war and oppression as the way of everyday life.

[SvNewbie]

the west dont want peace in the middle east.

Sad, but probably has an element of truth.

[Spank86]

the west dont want peace in the middle east.

Sorting Gaza wouldn't do much for peace in the middle east as a whole.

[yorkie_chris]

How about stop firing missiles against a country that is well enough organized and equipped to be able to shoot the vast majority of them down before they reach their target, thus achieving their principal aim of protecting their people from harm. After that you could consider getting rid of the people who want to fire the missiles and elect a replacement government that is going to develop your countries natural resources and engage in peaceful trade with your neighbours thus bringing prosperity and peace to your nation.

Is that enough to be getting on with....?

Yeah should just about fill an afternoon.

However when the only card they've got to bring to the table is "we'll try our best to stop the lunatic elements on our side from making ineffectual, provocative rocket attacks" and the other side don't want your country to exist... Good luck, but the chances aren't great.