View Full Version : Road tax and used cars-new rules
As you may know, in 2015 the tax disc will no longer be. As I understand it, it is now no transferable. What happens when you buy a used car now? Will you need to tax it before you take it away or does the seller tax it?
goodgumbo
12-08-14, 07:19 PM
What is replacing the tax disc in 2015? A database that the police can check like in other countries?
dirtydog
12-08-14, 07:21 PM
I think they're not issuing tax discs after October this year
As you may know, in 2015 the tax disc will no longer be. As I understand it, it is now no transferable. What happens when you buy a used car now? Will you need to tax it before you take it away or does the seller tax it?
Check the status of tax online prior to buying it (free to check on the .gov website) How will you now surrender car tax & get a refund???
what they are after is continuous taxing via direct debit so they can increase tax just like they did with the petrol going from gal to ltr pricing.
to get a refund you will have to phone them up or send an email. the problem is when you sell a car and you have the tax via direct debit. the new owner will have to tax and insure the vehicle there and then.
Stephen McG
12-08-14, 07:58 PM
I suspect that the tax disk will transfer with the vehicle.
Only the person who bought the disk can claim a refund of unused time.
SMcG
goodgumbo
12-08-14, 08:06 PM
So when a used vehicle is sold. It is taxed twice? The remaining tax of previous owner plus tax of new owner at registration change?
Does sound like a tax increase scheme.
a_monkey_hint
12-08-14, 08:08 PM
From what I know, the tax is linked to the registered keeper. Once the registered keeper sells the vehicle, that keeper can claim for each full month of tax remaining.
The new keeper needs to tax the vehicle.
its all getting very complicated. if the vehicle has been taxed for a full 6/12 months then nothing changes and the tax can stay with the vehicle, the tax is linked to the vehicle and not the owner. however if the owner ops for to tax the vehicle via direct debit payments then the tax will be classed as continuous via direct debit from their account. if the owner decided to sell then they can keep paying the tax (i very much doubt it) or cancel the direct debit and the vehicle becomes un-taxed.
this is all in aid to stop unlicensed vehicles on the road.... pull the other one gov.
it wont be long till the insurance companies stop handing out insurance certificates. when this happens the public wont have a clue as to when to do what. i'll then bet my socks that the gov bring a new rule out saying that we all have to pay by continuous direct debit for everything.
next it will be against the law not to have breakdown cover.
I have done some digging and it seems when you sell a car, you can claim a refund on however much tax is left depending on how you pay. If you buy a car second hand, then you have to tax it via the post office or online before you can drive away.
DarrenSV650S
13-08-14, 07:55 AM
So does it have to be taxed by the buyer? Or can the dealer still offer to tax it for you?
dizzyblonde
13-08-14, 08:03 AM
We upgraded our older car in June for the newer model with cruise control. We payed the dealer to tax it, so we could drive it away, and we took the old disk from the old car, and sent it to the dvla for a refund.
The new car had a mobility exempt tax disc on it, still valid for three months and that was sent back by the dealer.
Paul the 6th
13-08-14, 08:08 AM
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/vehicle-tax-changes
it looks like the tax is relative to you as an owner and is non-transferable, it'll be a case of "have you paid your vehicle excise duty" rather than "has the vehicle excise duty been paid on this vehicle?", similar to the relationship which vehicle insurance has with the owner and the vehicle..
So yeah, it looks like the existing owner will have paid their tax to the end of the month, then any new owners will also have to pay their own tax when purchasing. Computer records already show whether or not your car is taxed/insured or declared off-road, so no longer having a tax disc to display isn't the real change..
Be aware of people doing deals on tax disc holders!
DarrenSV650S
13-08-14, 09:18 AM
So what happens if you lend someone your car?
shiftin_gear98
13-08-14, 09:45 AM
:winner:
What he said, and what about hire cars?
Paul the 6th
13-08-14, 09:52 AM
if you borrow someones car, or get a hire car, then obviously the answer is that the government are still nob ends.
The info on the .gov page suggests that road tax will become an issue when the vehicle is sold or bought, so borrowing someones car or driving a hire car, the vehicle will show as taxed as long as the registerred keeper has in fact taxed it.
Spank86
13-08-14, 10:32 AM
Bought and sold... or when the registered keeper changes?
seems i was wrong. it's not transferable.
another little cunning side to this (from what i can read) is that if your MOT runs out you will automatically get a refund so your vehicle will not be taxed. lets put it another way, if like me your TAX runs out a month after your MOT and your MOT is at the start of a month and you forget to book the vehicle in for an MOT and the MOT runs out you will loose a full months TAX. whats not been made clear is if the DVLA will automatically SORN the vehicle or if that will still be the responsibility of the owner of the vehicle.
are the Gov taking the fekin pizz, https://www.youtube.com/user/DVLAgov is supposed to 'explain' about the new methods. instead we get a Geordie who i cant understand a word he is saying and from the odd word here and there i get the feeling he wants to make love to the big tax disc.
Paul the 6th
13-08-14, 12:34 PM
Bought and sold... or when the registered keeper changes?
another busy day for you is it spank?
goodgumbo
13-08-14, 02:09 PM
I have done some digging and it seems when you sell a car, you can claim a refund on however much tax is left depending on how you pay. If you buy a car second hand, then you have to tax it via the post office or online before you can drive away.
Including the drive back from collecting it? :confused:
Spank86
13-08-14, 04:38 PM
another busy day for you is it spank?
Every day's busy but I have to wait for my test equipment to do it's thing, can take up to 5 mins at a time.
The DVLA seem to think theres a significant difference between the cars owner and the registered keeper. I was wondering which the road tax rules apply to.
goodgumbo
13-08-14, 04:42 PM
are the Gov taking the fekin pizz, https://www.youtube.com/user/DVLAgov is supposed to 'explain' about the new methods. instead we get a Geordie who i cant understand a word he is saying and from the odd word here and there i get the feeling he wants to make love to the big tax disc.
Not sure if that video is pure genius or pure retard. WTF
are the Gov taking the fekin pizz, https://www.youtube.com/user/DVLAgov is supposed to 'explain' about the new methods. instead we get a Geordie who i cant understand a word he is saying and from the odd word here and there i get the feeling he wants to make love to the big tax disc.
As a Geordie, can I just point out that he's WELSH!
Thank you,
C
MrFurious
14-08-14, 07:43 AM
Just seen some of the DVLA paper work around our office. Looks like you'll get an automatic refund without applying for one if DVLA receive a notification that:
vehicle has been sold or transferred
vehicle has been scrapped at an Authorised Treatment Facility
vehicle has been exported
vehicle has been stolen
vehicle has been removed from the road and the person on the vehicle register has made a Statutory Off Road Notification (SORN)
person on the vehicle register has changed the tax class on the vehicle to an exempt duty tax class
at least you don't have to apply for a refund.
Littlepeahead
14-08-14, 08:44 AM
I have just queued up at the Post Office and been issued with a little round piece of paper for the very last time. I had to buy 6 months tax for the SV so I can transfer my LPH plate over to my GS before I sell the SV as they won't let you do it on a SORN'd vehicle. However, the lady behind the counter mentioned that as far as she's aware we won't be able to buy 6 months tax in the near future, not sure if that is correct, but for those who tax their bikes April - September then SORN over the winter this could mean a bit more faffing.
not sure that much has really changed here. Currently it is typical to include the remaining tax as part of the sale, or as many do, use it as a negotiating point. "I can drop the price further but only if I dont include the tax...." etc.
So with future rules, it sounds like the buyer/seller dont have a choice to include that. You own it during that month, you pay the tax. Simple. Basically treats tax in a similar way to insurance.
It would appear though that in the month when a car is sold tax will be paid twice, currently the DVLA will only refund complete months and you can only buy tax for complete months ....unless this is going to change.
as is the case today if you apply for a tax disc refund during sale.
Just spotted this in the bike talk section, seems you have to tax a vehicle before you can use it as the tax in non-transferable
Bin your fancy anodised and carbon tax disc holders ...
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/vehicle-tax-changes
Including the drive back from collecting it? :confused:
Yep, before you are allowed to use the vehicle. Can be done in the post office or they offer an automated service. Even if the disc is still valid, it seems you won't need to display it when it gets scrapped.
Road Tax is the biggest waste of time every, I am pretty sure that at least 90% of what you pay goes to the administration of the system, it is the most complicated system, seemingly designed to be as complicated as possible.
The amount you pay in road tax is negligible compared to fuel duty and vat on fuel so why bother?
I have heard people mention that the cost of fuel should be upped. That way you only pay for the time you are on the road.
Road Tax is the biggest waste of time every, I am pretty sure that at least 90% of what you pay goes to the administration of the system, it is the most complicated system, seemingly designed to be as complicated as possible.
The amount you pay in road tax is negligible compared to fuel duty and vat on fuel so why bother?
to keep people employed. without paying the TAX these people might otherwise be unemployed and we would have to pay for them some other way.
Thatcher said that she would put 10p on a ltr of fuel and scrap the road tax. yes 10p went on a ltr of fuel but the road tax was never scrapped.
As a Geordie, can I just point out that he's WELSH!
Thank you,
C
ahhh thanks but it makes no odds i still cant understand him :D
to keep people employed. without paying the TAX these people might otherwise be unemployed and we would have to pay for them some other way.
Thatcher said that she would put 10p on a ltr of fuel and scrap the road tax. yes 10p went on a ltr of fuel but the road tax was never scrapped.
Maybe they should be put to work somewhere else in the DVLA so it takes less than 2 weeks to get a v5 through!
goodgumbo
18-08-14, 02:04 AM
So when I buy an used bike in mid-September, what steps do I need to take?
Sign the back of the registration paper. Take that paper somewhere to register it under my name. Get insurance with that registration. Use current tax disk (valid till 02-15). Anything else? In that order?
I think everything is as normal until November 1st.
goodgumbo
18-08-14, 02:50 PM
I think everything is as normal until November 1st.
Sure, but this is the first time I buy an used vehicle in the UK. What is the normal procedure?
Is the list I gave complete and in order?
Get the bike's registration number from the seller and arrange insurance before you go to collect.
You complete your details on the main part of the registration document which you both sign. This is sent to DVLA by the seller. You keep a small tear-off portion on which you put your name and address. Retain that until the new V5 (registration document) comes through.
If the vehicle has a current tax disc then you're fine (at the moment) for road tax.
If the vehicle requires an MOT (roadworthiness test) the seller should give you the paper copy. You can also check MOT status online but I think you might need the registration document reference number for that.
Note, in the UK, if the vehicle has road tax it also has to be insured whether you intend to use it or not. If the bike is "off road" it needs to be declared as such.
Red Herring
18-08-14, 03:01 PM
So when I buy an used bike in mid-September, what steps do I need to take?
Sign the back of the registration paper. Take that paper somewhere to register it under my name. Get insurance with that registration. Use current tax disk (valid till 02-15). Anything else? In that order?
Buy vehicle
Put your details in the new keeper part of the V5 and give the document back to the seller for them to send to DVLA. You keep a small green tear off slip that they should have also made sure you fill in with your details.
Insure the vehicle.
Check the tax disc displayed and the MOT are still in date.
Ride/drive away.
ps: beaten to it by SamSV
punyXpress
18-08-14, 03:15 PM
Buy vehicle
Put your details in the new keeper part of the V5 and give the document back to the seller for them to send to DVLA. You keep a small green tear off slip that they should have also made sure you fill in with your details.
Insure the vehicle.
Check the tax disc displayed and the MOT are still in date.
Ride/drive away.
ps: beaten to it by SamSV
ONLY until Sept 30th!After that you must tax it before Ride/drive away.
A right royal pita and no mistake!
Red Herring
18-08-14, 03:18 PM
The question was what he needed to do in mid September....?
Yes it's another thing to do post September but it's surely no harder to do than getting insurance?
goodgumbo
18-08-14, 03:31 PM
Thanks for the help guys.
So what is the rule about insurance before September 30th? Not clear to me yet what are the limits. Want to keep it legal. I am collecting mid-September so miss the stricter rule fortunately :)
ONLY until Sept 30th!After that you must tax it before Ride/drive away.
A right royal pita and no mistake!
It's no big deal really if you can do it instantly online.
In any event, even if you don't get the tax straight away it'll still show as taxed on the database until the former owner sends in the V5 so you'll be fine on the digital front. The only problem would be if you could get stopped by an analogue police officer. That's unlikely as there won't be any traffic officers soon and whatever police service is left will be busy doing social work for the feckless.
Thanks for the help guys.
So what is the rule about insurance before September 30th? Not clear to me yet what are the limits. Want to keep it legal. I am collecting mid-September so miss the stricter rule fortunately :)
No changes coming on the insurance front. Your vehicle must be either Taxed or SORNed (declared off road). If it's taxed, it must be insured.
goodgumbo
18-08-14, 03:47 PM
No changes coming on the insurance front. Your vehicle must be either Taxed or SORNed (declared off road). If it's taxed, it must be insured.
Great to know.
Wait, are there no traffic officers in the UK? :confused:
Red Herring
18-08-14, 03:50 PM
Great to know.
Wait, are there no traffic officers in the UK? :confused:
He speaks slightly tongue in cheek.... but he's not far wrong about the rest of it! ;)
goodgumbo
18-08-14, 03:55 PM
Hahahaha I see. Got me excited there for a second.
So until the registration is changed, the previous owner's insurance covers because it isn't different than sharing the bike with a friend. Got it. But soon since the tax disk rules change, no tax means no insurance.
No.
You will still need to take out your own insurance. If the bike already has tax and MOT then you don't need to do anything about those until they expire.
goodgumbo
18-08-14, 04:01 PM
I know I have to take my own insurance. But half are saying I can do that after buying the vehicle and half are saying to do it before.
I am only worried about insurance on the ride back home after collecting. Will insure the next day online. Just don't want to insure before viewing, what if I decide not to buy the bike?
Ah right - I was assuming the decision was already made on the purchase.
If you buy a bike you'll need to get insured before you ride it. You won't be able to rely on the previous owners insurance.
goodgumbo
18-08-14, 04:57 PM
Got it.
Since we are talking about it... what insurance companies do people here recommend?
MisterTommyH
18-08-14, 07:20 PM
Anyone know what happens if I have a vehicle with zero tax liability?
Up until now I've still had to apply for an annual tax disc, for the value of zero, as for some reason they couldn't just automatically renew it.
So as there's no longer a tax disc to be sent for, and there's no direct debit (because theres nothing to pay for) will it just automatically be considered as taxed?
I wonder the same about historic vehicles. I guess they can just check the database?
Red Herring
18-08-14, 07:56 PM
Anyone know what happens if I have a vehicle with zero tax liability?
Up until now I've still had to apply for an annual tax disc, for the value of zero, as for some reason they couldn't just automatically renew it.
So as there's no longer a tax disc to be sent for, and there's no direct debit (because theres nothing to pay for) will it just automatically be considered as taxed?
The registered keeper will still be sent a reminder and they will need to apply for "tax" exactly as they do now, the only difference between these and the rated vehicles is that you obviously don't pay anything at the end of the application. I guess the idea is that it still provides an annual audit check of vehicle records so someone somewhere has to effectively declare that they are still the owner and using the vehicle.
The registered keeper will still be sent a reminder and they will need to apply for "tax" exactly as they do now, the only difference between these and the rated vehicles is that you obviously don't pay anything at the end of the application. I guess the idea is that it still provides an annual audit check of vehicle records so someone somewhere has to effectively declare that they are still the owner and using the vehicle.
annnnd it wont turn the ANPR red so the traffic cops can continue munching their doughnuts :rolleyes:
i'll give it within 10 years and they will discontinue the SORN and every vehicle will have to be 'fit for road' or crushed.
There was talk of vehicles needing a "full" (whatever that means) MOT at sale (assuming over 3yrs old). That would be a total PITA and more or less impossible to put into practice. I hope that one has been kicked into very very long grass and the ball has gone down a rabbit hole. If "full" meant at least 11months, it would mean re-testing every month while you were trying to sell a vehicle, just bonkers. Also presumably not being able to sell a vehicle "for repair" (see earlier post regarding doing away with SORN and vehicle being taxed or scrapped).
No, just stop being stupid, Mr.Politician, get real for a change.
It'll be interesting to see how this works out in practice. If being able to tax a vehicle online depends on the insurance database showing you as having valid insurance, how quickly will it be updated when you take out insurance? I bet it won't be "instant".
Computer says "no".
yorkie_chris
20-08-14, 11:45 AM
I don't think even post office check paper insurance now, they just look at the screen.
Mental, takes at least 24 hours to get insurance onto MID. Makes it totally impossible to be legit when buying a vehicle.
Red Herring
20-08-14, 01:16 PM
No it doesn't. We used stop vehicles that were uninsured, and then for various reasons give the driver the chance to sort it rather than seizing it and it would be on the MID before we let them go. The link to the Police computer would sometimes take a bit longer, but the MID can be done instantly.
I don't think even post office check paper insurance now, they just look at the screen.
Mental, takes at least 24 hours to get insurance onto MID. Makes it totally impossible to be legit when buying a vehicle.
I bought a car on Saturday and taxed it without any paperwork within minutes of insuring it, the previous owner didn't have it insured and it had been SORN'd.
I still haven't seen much in the press about this. Not long to go now and all they have is a small break up video.
Sent from my KFTT
Just used the new system to tax my car. Nice and quick to use. Just gives you options to pay monthly or up front by direct debit or up front by card. Just says that you won't receive a disc. Checks MOT online but just says you need to make sure you are insured. As Bibio said earlier at the start, there is a premium if you pay monthly.
so what about Sundays?
ok so i'll have to insure the vehicle online or by phone but what if i want to buy my road tax at the PO with cash?
Spank86
10-10-14, 10:45 PM
I'm not understanding the problem bib?
Assuming your incapable of forward planning you can simply go to the post office on a Sunday brandishing either the cash or cheque of your choice and pay the nice lady for road tax.
Or did you want to pay cash monthly?
ermm no, what if i was buying a vehicle on a sunday via private sale. i could be wrong but the old owner cannot transfer the tax to the new owner. i think from the moment the v5 is signed the tax people refund the tax to the new owner.
or do we still get 'grace'?
I think what Bib is getting at is that he can't tax a vehicle on a Sunday by cash because the PO would be closed. You cannot transfer the tax. Think of it as the tax relating to the owner and not the vehicle. So it needs taxing and insuring before being driven away. No grace now as far as I understand it.
Spank86
11-10-14, 07:49 AM
Lots of post offices open on Sunday's.
Luckypants
11-10-14, 09:40 AM
I think from the moment the v5 is signed the tax people refund the tax to the OLD REGISTERED KEEPER
Corrected, but I suspect it was a typo.
Selling a vehicle
From 1 October, vehicle tax is not transferable so you won’t be able to include any remaining tax when you sell a vehicle. If you sell a vehicle after 1 October and you have notified DVLA, you will automatically get a refund for any full remaining months left on the vehicle tax. The refund will be sent to the keepers details on DVLA records so you need to make sure that these are correct.
Vehicle tax refunds
You will no longer need to make a separate application for a refund of vehicle tax. DVLA will automatically issue a refund when a notification is received from the person named on DVLA vehicle register that the:
vehicle has been sold or transferred
vehicle has been scrapped at an Authorised Treatment Facility
vehicle has been exported
vehicle has been removed from the road and the person on the vehicle register has made a Statutory Off Road Notification (SORN)
person on the vehicle register has changed the tax class on the vehicle to an exempt duty tax class
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/vehicle-tax-changes
Red Herring
11-10-14, 10:08 AM
If you buy a car on a Sunday and you really don't want to tax it online straight away for whatever reason, just drive the thing home (insured of course) and tax it the next day at the post office.
Nobody I've ever met is going to get their knickers in a twist if you can show them you have just bought it and that's what you are doing. There really are more important things in life.
daveyrach
11-10-14, 10:50 AM
Not complex really, if it has tax when you drive it away you're unlikely to be caught as it can take up to 6 weeks for DVLA to refund the registered keeper anyway.
I think it a good idea stops rip off merchants saying 'oh but its taxed!'
The only extra revenue the DVLA will get is if a car is taxed mid month, the DVLA will get the tax twice for that month. For example if i sold a car now that was taxed until March I would get a refund for November, December, January, February and March but not the reminder of October, the new owner would tax it which would run from the start of October, in reality DVLA has received two lots of tax for that vehicle for October.
yorkie_chris
14-10-14, 08:57 AM
So would you get done for no tax if you taxed it at the start of (in example above) november? They've had their VED for that month albeit from the previous owner.
davepreston
14-10-14, 09:36 AM
you buy a car on sunday, you drive it home , you get home and sort it that week before the v 5 actually hits the dvla's mat, simples
Red Herring
14-10-14, 12:43 PM
you buy a car on sunday, you drive it home , you get home and sort it that week before the v 5 actually hits the dvla's mat, simples
Precisely. You would technically be committing an offence when you were driving it home but as I suggested earlier you are extremely unlikely to get prosecuted provided you did subsequently tax it for that period.
And to answer YC proposal, no you can't do that. If we assumed (for the sake of argument) that the car was detected being driven home during October you could be prosecuted if you were to avoid paying for Octobers tax. You might get away with it if you only drove it on the day of the sale (I don't think the point of sale is timed on the V5) but you would then have to SORN it from the next day until you then taxed it on November. Basically any use of the vehicle on a road post the date of sale has to be tax paid by the new owner.
yorkie_chris
15-10-14, 12:26 PM
So the question is how quick do they register the end of previous tax.
Ask the seller to take their time posting the V5?
I still think they're just trying to make criminals of everyone by thinking up ridiculous solutions to non-issues.
Red Herring
15-10-14, 12:58 PM
From the DVLA side of things it doesn't matter how quickly they process it, eventually they will get round to it and they will see there is a gap between the date the previous seller said he sold it to you, and the date from which you taxed it, and they will come after you for that.
If you are worried about being picked up by the police using ANPR to check against DVLA records don't bother. A vehicle doesn't find it's way onto the DVLA untaxed/unregistered hotlist until it has lapsed by about three months, and even you should be able to tax it by then.....!
it wont be long till the insurance companies stop handing out insurance certificates. My last insurance company didn't issue a certificate. It was stored online. Hastings i think it was.
When you buy the car from the seller, you can apply directly online using the new keeper part of the V5.
the 12 digit reference number on your New Keeper Supplement (V5C/2) if you've just bought the vehicle
However, if they only calculate per month for refunds then i can see the DVLA making a huge sum of cash over this as some vehicles will effectively been taxed twice for that month. As for the monthly DD, at bloody last. No more worrying about it, or having to find a lump some once a year. yes it will go up, yes its a con, but we have to pay it, so why not make it easy for myself.
thefallenangel
15-10-14, 05:54 PM
When you buy the car from the seller, you can apply directly online using the new keeper part of the V5.
However, if they only calculate per month for refunds then i can see the DVLA making a huge sum of cash over this as some vehicles will effectively been taxed twice for that month. As for the monthly DD, at bloody last. No more worrying about it, or having to find a lump some once a year. yes it will go up, yes its a con, but we have to pay it, so why not make it easy for myself.
A direct debit for £30 tax or less seems unnecessary and if you are on stupid tax prices then finding a few hundred quid is less likely to affect you.
Agreed but my annual for the car is 145. The bike I will probably still tax in one go. I still think that road tax should be combined with petrol.
keith_d
15-10-14, 06:17 PM
Agreed but my annual forbade car is 145. The bike I will probably still tax in one go. I still think that road tax should be combined with petrol.
We're heading back into familiar ground here.
Vehicle Excise Duty is just another meaningless tax from the days when most people only owned three expensive things. Car, TV and house, so the government taxed all three.
If it was my choice I'd go for tax on fuel based on the fossil carbon content, with a nominal rate for things like bio-ethanol and bio-diesel. That would give everyone a bigger incentive to move away from fossil fuels for transport.
If it was my choice I'd go for tax on fuel based on the fossil carbon content, with a nominal rate for things like bio-ethanol and bio-diesel. That would give everyone a bigger incentive to move away from fossil fuels for transport.
Which is surely the reason Diesel used to be cheaper, because it provided better economy you were 'rewarded' by paying less for it. When a lot more started using it, the price rose dramatically to the point where it is now more expensive.
No matter what the fuel is, they will get money out of you. It will start off with an incentive which then gets taken away. E.g selling energy back to the grid, they have already changed the rebate amount because of the amount of people doing it.
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