Track crash - my fault?

[MrFurious]

Novice group at Brands Hatch Indy and all was going well until a low flying R1 put me off my stride. Wasn't annoyed at the time but watching the video back I'm a bit miffed. It was the second lap of the third session and tyres were still cold, I grabbed a hand full of front brake and you can see the result from the video below.

What do you lot think?
aBfzhQYLlDM

Sorry, took me a couple of goes to get the video in.

[NTECUK]

Strictly speaking, Your not supposed to pas on the inside on track days

[andrewsmith]

What track day provider was it?
Most don't allow inside passes into the corners on TD's especially in novice groups

[JulesW]

Strictly speaking, you're not supposed to pass on the inside on track days



Really? So when the rider you're passing drifts wide or bins it what then?

[Bibio]

it was the person who undercut then decided that they were going to hot and backed off that caused the crash. everything would have been fine if the undercutter kept the gas on.

[JulesW]

Really horrid pass by the R1 rider.

[NTECUK]

Really? So when the rider you're passing drifts wide or bins it what then?
If you passed them on the inside. You may get black flagged or worse . Depending on the organisation

[maviczap]

Yes, its not usually allowed, on my last track day 2 knobs passed loads of us on the inside on the first lap of our first session!

Looking at the footage the R1 rider came in too fast into the corner and had to brake to avoid going off himself? Rather than carrying his corner speed, he decelerated which caused the the OP to brake mid corner, otherwise the OP would have rear ended him?

Dunno really, just my 10 peneth?

[NTECUK]

Let's be honest if the person in front is that bad just wait.Your on the gas and past after the exit anyway

[maviczap]

Let's be honest if the person in front is that bad just wait.Your on the gas and past after the exit anyway

Yep, even though I'm not that good, I'll wait.

Its advanced and intermediate riders mixed in with us that spoil novice sessions.

Most of them are on more powerful bikes & just use power on the straights.

If they were skillful riders they wouldn't cause crashes like that

[Mauler]

I've never done a trackday myself but my eyes work: it looks like the R1 is too fast into the corner, cuts the speed to sort himself out and in doing so drifts wide from his line directly across yours. Like that wasn't iffy enough he then puts a teeny bit of a lean on to drift back in away from the edge and hems you in when doing so. He's clearly not bothered about where you are.


I've got zilch track exp but that looks like inconsiderate riding at best and pretty negligent or dangerous at worst.

[MrFurious]

It was with No Limits and to be honest there was no mention about ways to overtake and ways not to. Which was surprising. The brief at the start - from Derek Redmond - pretty much glossed over it. No surprise that people pass like this then.

The bloke was on an R1 after all, all he had to do was wait for the straight and he'd have been gone.

Anyway I'll get back to fixing my bike.

[Nutsinatin]

I was in the novice group of a No Limits Trackday last month, they didn't care too much about inside overtakes and I got punted off the track more than once with riders making inside passes then running me off the track, who was this one organised by? Not a good move by the R1 rider regardless.

[maviczap]

I can't rember if its specifically mentioned in Club MSV briefings, but dangerous riding will result in a black flag

[PyroUK]

I just had my first td and it was with no limits. Their words on passing were:

Inside passing is fine as long as you have a good amount of space, 4-5 feet. Tight passes and standing people up will result in a black flag.

That may have just been rockingham though as they said the marshals were tightening up on "tw @s" his word.

That aside, and based on my minimal experience, that guy was a douche. As others said too hot in and cut your line, twice!!, which caused the off.

Hope you and bike aren't too hurt!

Out of curiosity did he come off?

[MrFurious]

Cheers, all the protective gear on me and the bike did their jobs. The bits that are broken on the bike I was planning on replacing anyway, just not this soon!

I think some riders have a preconceived notion of their own ability based on the bike they ride. He was on an R1 and I was on an SV, therefore he is the better rider and should be in front.

He didn't have an off there but someone else did halfway around clearways just after this so could have been him. It got red flagged for the second one as the bloke needed medical help. I was too busy putting my bike on my trailer to go home.

[Dabteacake]

Anyone got a link? Can't see the imbedded vid

[MrFurious]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBfzhQYLlDM&feature=youtu.be

[Dabteacake]

Well he is quite the considerate chap eh? Shame that you get lumped with the cost from his mistake. Is that your track bike or road bike?

[Wideboy]

What track day provider was it?
Most don't allow inside passes into the corners on TD's especially in novice groups
that is what they tell everyone yes, but its rarely put into practice.

The R1 riders fault, you had the line.

[MrFurious]

It's a road bike in the middle of becoming a track bike. Fortunately crash bungs were one of the first bits on. The only bit that was broken was the gear linkage which I had a spare for. Unfortunately that spare was at home in my garage.

[Bobbydigital36]

You're not allowed to overtake on the bends I believe for BH novice. You can only overtake on the straights. (Not sure if its right or just no undertaking)

[NTECUK]

Thing is. All well and good saying no under takes. But as no one is reinforceing the rules. Then it's no rules.
Just like speeding on the roads.
Don't take a bike on the track you can't afford to walk away from

[MrFurious]

Don't take a bike on the track you can't afford to walk away from


I agree, you should be fully prepared for the worst. But it's one thing to crash out from your own incompetence and another due to someone else's.

[NTECUK]

Well yes. It is not fair.
But that's life.
Imagine the result if the op had shut the door or lent back on the R1.

[Wideboy]

I've never seen people diving down the inside dealt with by any TD organisers (of course this is just what I've witnessed). The chicane at the end of the pit straight at rockingham is now a permanent yellow flag with a marshal posted there because of this happening. It still goes on and nothing is done about it.

[NTECUK]

So as a novice, what's the best way to prevent this happening.?
Or just go up to inters???

[Wideboy]

It's no different in the inters. Trouble is all the last minute people usually book into novice when the inters or fast group are full just to get track time. If its a weekend with hot sunny weather the novice group will be full of them. It inevitable that this will happen.

I know of a TD company that at a certain track let one bloke out in every single session and he's ballistic which I think is wrong especially to the newbs. I've been there twice 7 months apart and both times he was there in every group, originally I thought he was in training to be a instructor but clearly not.

[speedyandypandy]

The R1 nob made this situation, but you had lot of time to get around/outmanoeuvre him or break gently, in Keith Code's words, your survival instinct kicked in...
Always a bummer to kiss tarmac, but using time on blame etc etc is counterproductive, focus on what you could do different next time, think about "escape-plans", mentally prepare yourself, and maybe you won't freeze up and hog the brake, next time you might get around the nob and pass him on the outside :D or just roll out on the grass and get back on track some yards further down.

This inside passing will happen again....so prepare yourself.

[PyroUK]

So as a novice, what's the best way to prevent this happening.?
Or just go up to inters???


Doubt there is any way, you just have to ride for yourself and hope you don't come across any douche's.

Def not a good idea to move up to inters if you are still a novice, the guys in that group were shiftin some and the fast group were haulin ass!

You'd just feel worse and less confident.

I knew I wasn't going to be the fastest so I just sorted myself out. Picked my lines and stuck to them. On the occasions where there was someone else there first I had to concede the line and wait for a moment to pass if poss or wait till they got away from me.

But then again it's all well and good saying this now. Would I have had it in me to not crash in the situation the op was in on the day? I doubt it.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing

[Wideboy]

The inters has such a wide range of different rider skill levels, some are ballistic and others should probably go back down into the novice. I've not yet ridden in the fast group but one of my friends does on the tracks he knows well and he says that it's totally different, people don't dive down the inside and are more aware of themselves and other's, plus the group is rarely near full capacity.

But the rider's fast group ride faster in the wet than most inters do in the dry.

[JulesW]

This inside passing will happen again....so prepare yourself.

Wise words

[Bunkle]

I've done a few No Limits TDs and the briefing has always included the overtaking rule of a bike lengths distance away from who ever you're overtaking.
The **** on the R1 approached the corner with no game plan, he was out for himself thought he was Marquez and ballsed it up at your cost buddy. I feel for you but as mentioned the novice group is rarely mainly novices with "little or no track experience" to quote the NL site. It seems its a group that a handful of real novices are taking seriously and the rest inters and fast using it to take the **** because their groups are full. There are the rare few that are courteous and give you the room you need on track though.
The same issues are talked about on the TDR forum I'm on but the problem is will the TD organiser have the balls to either move the inter/fast fella up a group (not going to happen if its full to start with) or politely ask them to leave the circuit? I doubt it.

I'm hopefully off to Mallory Park which is a great little circuit with a short straight, so you can really get to grips with the corners and chicanes, something the SV was built for!

[NTECUK]

Then maybe then the tape you fix to your mirrors might just "fall off".
Ok Bedford is a good track(needs garages etc) But Its stuff like this booming up the inside can honestly spoil the day.

[Bunkle]

What tape is that buddy?

[Wideboy]

He means when you tape up your lights and mirrors ect on a road bike.

I had loads of TD's planned for this year. Did my first of the year back at the start of spring, it was the first hot sunny weekend of the year so full of people in the wrong group. It Was total chaos. I packed the van up, left early and rather peeved. It has temporarily killed the TD itch for me.

[Wideboy]

A system that no limits could introduce could be that each account would only be allocated 3-5 novice bookings and once the quota has been used they can only book into inters or fast group. Maybe loose them some business though.

[Bunkle]

Good idea mate but I'm living proof that wouldn't work!
I've done 3 with NL now and I know that even a couple more TDs under my belt wouldn't be enough to improve my speed, confidence or skill to move up to inters.
I'm looking at doing some track based training but its a pretty expensive.

[JulesW]

All this talk of chaos, inconsiderate riders in the wrong groups and poor organisation is really putting me off.

I have quite a lot of track experience but nothing recent, I used to race in the 80s and did lots of 'practice days' at Oulton. The organisation and management was very low level but the track was populated with mainly experienced riders that rode with care and consideration regarding other riders.

It seems like the whole business has become a very profit orientated cash cow where TD organisers prioritize earnings and lots of relatively inexperienced riders are dicking about on R1s, Blades and Gixxers and are somewhat out of their depth and deliberately riding in the wrong groups. I really want to ride on tracks again but not in an overcrowded environment full of d1ckheads. Very sad what I'm reading here, and very off-putting.


Have any of you witnessed a 'black flag' incident where the rider lost his track time that day for inconsiderate riding or is that something that organisers say will happen but never does?

[Wideboy]

It's not all like that. Weekdays are less crowded than weekends, the track width and amount of straight lining will have a hand in it also as the less passing places then the more desperate people will get.

Unfortunately d1ck heads will be at every track, despite them telling you not to in the briefing, I usually have a little cheeky glance to the side before I drop into a corner after a straight and it usually has kept me out of trouble. People diving down the inside and slamming on the anchors is usual behaviour but I must say I've never witnessed a black flag waved

What you have said about it being a cash cow is interesting. No limits put forward a proposal to put in a second intermediate group in and knock sessions down to 15mins. Everyone said it was a terrible idea as most sessions get red flagged at the start so you'll loose out more. The last TD I did seemed to have very high numbers which made me think they'd increased numbers instead but I'm not sure the track owners would allow this on a health and safety basis.

Anyway I only say what I see. It can't be easy organising and running a track day. I got ****ed off at the last TD mainly because the bike fell over in the van that morning (my fault) and I'd come off in the morning aswell. I kept getting cut up all day, I got carved up by 3 people on the last corner before the straight (one of which was my friend) and it was the third session from the end of the day. I pretty much csme to a stop on the outside of the corner as I was pushed out so wide and when I signaled to the marshal nothing was done. So I pulled in the pits and packed up.

[NTECUK]

A system that no limits could introduce could be that each account would only be allocated 3-5 novice bookings and once the quota has been used they can only book into inters or fast group. Maybe loose them some business though.

It doesn't take in to account riders like my self who simply are not that quick!

[MrFurious]

Please don't be put off TDs as long as you ride within your limits then accidents like mine are avoidable. I've had a long think about this and there were three contributing factors that resulted in my bike sliding across the grass. The first was cold tyres, the second was me trying to ride beyond my talent and the third was the R1. Take away any one of those three and the bike would have stayed rubber side down. Two of those factors were within my control and had I been sensible I could have avoided the R1.

I was trying too hard on cold tyres, then ran out of talent and panicked when an R1 got a bit close.

Lesson learnt and I won't be put off TDs.

[speedyandypandy]

Lesson learnt and I won't be put off TDs.

Good boy, get back on that girl and ride her hard(within your limits) ;)

[PyroUK]

It doesn't take in to account riders like my self who simply are not that quick!


You're right but at the same time, it shouldn't deter you.

If you ride at your own pace for yourself you will enjoy it. Yes there are risks but by even contemplating a td you have already accepted those.

We had several offs through the day most in the first few laps of the sessions. I would put that down to the riders not taking their time to settle into it and getting the tyres warm.

I was absolutely bricking it each am every session, but I took my time (ok in the later ones I was a bit foolish and was pushing harder sooner than I should) and just ride for me. Was brilliant fun and I have so much more appreciation for the sv knowing what it can do.

[L3nny]

I've done a few track days, mostly in Novice and a couple in Inter

Every single day I have been stood up by someone overtaking me on the inside of a corner, a couple of times even the instructors have done it.

No-one ever gets black flagged, you just have to expect it, I've learnt to take wide lines into turns to allow be to be overtaken on both sides. Makes me a bit slower but at least I keep it shiny side up.

[johnnyrod]

I had a run-in with No Limits at Cadwell this year. After a discussion with them, they don't have any sort of clearance rule with regard to overtakes, they tell you to just do it courteously, but otherwise you can do it anywhere. This was the briefing and that was also the outcome of the discussion. Of course this was like a red rag to a bunch of bulls riding GSXRs and R1s, and the result was I went to see them at the end of the first session, because someone was really going to get hurt. I also rode with them again at Silverstone and people were throwing themselves into the scenery with gusto. I don't believe they took it seriously, compared to some of the others, but none of them really are that conscientious. It's more down to the track themselves, we once nearly had a day at Rockingham stopped by the track because it was just silly.

Ntec I'm passed by plenty of riders in inters, but I know how to ride and I'm never going to be the fastest, or the slowest. Neither of course do I know how many are behind me. Just do it, the novices is a mare, there are the ringers, and there are the real noobs who can't take the same line around the same corner twice.

OP: R1 ruined your day but yes it was a bit of inexperience I think. I rarely agree with speedyandypandy but he's right, you had more time than you realised, and a simple move could have got you out of it, like when he came across you, move to the side a little so you're not line astern - same goes if you're passed on the brakes. And never chop the throttle mid-corner!

[Red Herring]

Watching the video it was clearly an inconsiderate pass however the OP could clearly have held the line and cleared inside him, as he himself said he braked and this picked the bike up leading to the off. You have to remember that this is the novice group and it is going to be full of riders learning trackcraft, and are hence going to make mistakes.

As someone else has said don't focus on blame, but look at the cause instead and what you could have done differently. Clearly being faster yourself would have prevented the other rider getting up the inside.......(:)) however there are always going to be faster bikes and riders out there so be prepared to deal with their mistakes. Don't let one incident put you off, just look at it as valuable (and expensive) experience.

[Specialone]

In my humble opinion and gav said it earlier in the thread, you had the 'racing' line, it's not a race, there was no gain to come up on your inside like that.

On my one and only track day at Mallory park, my triumph sprint was 6 months old so didn't wanna push it, there wasn't enough people to fill the three groups so they made two groups with fast and inters mixed in with novice.

Stupid fast track bikes were overtaking anywhere they liked, I was undertook on the long sweeping bend at the end of the straight, I was less than a metre away from the inside kerb and a bike came up my inside, the outside of me was totally clear, so the first few sessions I was keeping it very tight to the kerbs and still riders were trying to undertake me, in the end I stopped worrying and just hugged the kerbs and it helped.

I improved throughout the day and even overtook a track bike after I sat up his chuff for nearly three laps, I was more confident on the brakes than quite a few and could've passed a few people on the inside doing this but I didn't because it's just not on.

There are quite a few people buying and riding super fast sports bikes that are way beyond their ability, unfortunately they book track days and this is the outcome.

[Red Herring]

There are quite a few people buying and riding super fast sports bikes that are way beyond their ability, fortunately they book track days and smash them to pieces.....

Corrected for you....:D

[Sideshow Pob]

This is a very interesting thread and obviously to start with I hope everyone who has become separated with their bike at the track is all OK and the bikes are not too badly damaged.

Trackdays have evolved over the years, I think I started in the early days but maybe not the very start of them. But over the last 10 years certainly, they have grown tremendously. It's a great way to enjoy the performance of your bike in relative safety.

But here, on TDR and Motoforum too, there are conversations all about when things go wrong on a trackday. It's going to happen at some time, I don't think you could ever run the amount of trackdays that currently happen without incident.

The thing that worries me is that when a bad experience on track happens to a novice rider, then that rider is affected in many ways. Firstly they are put off the idea of trackdays completely, they probably haven't improved their general riding ability (which is a significant benefit of riding on track) and they may suffer personal injury and bike damage. All not good, especially if this is passed on to friends who were just about to book a trackday for the first time.

So I've been thinking about this and I'm am looking to run some trackdays next year that will be geared towards the novice track rider.

I don't want to go into too much detail at the moment, mainly as I am still trying to work things out myself but for a little bit extra money you would have closer, more personal instruction to make the whole experience a lot safer and have people leave the day with smiles on their faces rather than bruises and broken crankcases.

I would be interested to hear other peoples thoughts and although a group just for SV's would be a nice idea I think that would be a little tricky!

[Red Herring]

I've run a number of "trackdays" for complete beginners, it's not as hard as you might imagine. Basically you need to get together enough people to completely fill a group, usually between twenty five and thirty depending on circuit, and then approach an existing trackday organizer and effectively block book one of their groups. The key to making your session "safe" is ultimately discipline, combined with the fact that everybody should be sort of mates all with a common objective which doesn't include getting their ego out....

You start the first couple of sessions off with effectively a "no overtaking" rule which allows everybody to get tyres and themselves settled in and then just restrict it to the first couple of laps in subsequent session, but retain a no overtaking rule in any braking zone. This prevents the sort of thing that happened to the OP and if it is combined with a certain ammount of mutual co-operation, ie: if someone is up your chuff don't accelerate quite so hard off the next bend so they can easily pass, it prevents the bunching you often get behind a powerful bike that is slow in the bends.

If you do find a particular individual is getting frustrated at the level of control imposed then it's not normally a problem moving them into another session where they can go and prove their manhood. We invariably found there were outsiders from these groups asking if they can join ours!

The trick is finding enough people who will commit up front so you can arrange it. How about putting forward the suggestion that we arrange next years AR at Pembrey circuit.........

[Sideshow Pob]

Thank you RH, some very sensible suggestions there which I will definitely be incorporating into my plans. Unfortunately, Pembrey (although a decent track) is about the furthest away from me and Cadwell is on my doorstep so I'm looking at going there first.

[BoltonSte]

I do track days with the BMW club ( have mentioned them before on here) they are run similar to RH, although they book the whole day with three groups, beginners/inters and adv.


I know of 1 session which was stopped in 3 years at Snet due to someone overcooking the hairpin at the end of the day as it started to rain.


Oh and you don't need a BMW to do the day, there's plenty of instructors available including ex racers.