Wind farms

[Amadeus]

Down in Cornwall there seem to be a lot of wind turbines.

There is a lot of NIMBYism because it spoils a view but I don't think that it does - to me, it doesn't look worse than something like Angel of the North. If people complain because of the low frequency noise that's one thing but when they're in the middle of a field or even out at see, I think they're fine and to be encouraged (to a degree).

What are people's thoughts on them?

[Wideboy]

The only way it would bother me is if it lowered the value of my house.

[littleoldman2]

it doesn't look worse than something like Angel of the North.

Not a lot does, I think it's bloody aweful.

On NIMBY's they have to ask themselves do we want a power station in the same place instead or do we have power cuts. We haven't built a "major" power station in many a year BUT we keep using more and more electricity.

[Amadeus]

Not a lot does, I think it's bloody aweful.


So do I TBH, but I know some people here like it and I wasn't looking to alienate them. Think I've blown that tho... :-)

[Ben.tattooer]

I love cornwall, it is gorgeous and certainly not spoilt by the odd wind turbine. I'll happily swap amazing roads fresh air and the odd turbine for my filthy air and cramped roads full of white Audi ******s anyday!

[carelesschucca]

I don't mind them but sometimes they can be a bit too much if there are large numbers of them.

[dizzyblonde]

I've enough wind to supply the whole town with a lifetime supply of gas.

Joking aside. Bloody horrible things.
Spoil any beautiful landscapes. Scottish hills peppered with them. We have one up the road. I swear all the birds fly the wrong way round because of them.

[Red ones]

Why are they always white? Why not a full rainbow, or welsh ones could be green and yellow like giant daffodils?

[dizzyblonde]

Why are they always white? Why not a full rainbow, or welsh ones could be green and yellow like giant daffodils?

....because then it would look like telly tubby land.....

[tigersaw]

They stuff up my radar

[Red Herring]

I do a lot of sailing around the Thames estuary and the place is full of them. I wouldn't mind if they would do something useful and turn them on to generate some decent wind when it's a calm day, but otherwise the majority of them seem to just sit there blotting out the horizon.

[Biker Biggles]

Down in Cornwall there seem to be a lot of wind turbines.

There is a lot of NIMBYism because it spoils a view but I don't think that it does - to me, it doesn't look worse than something like Angel of the North. If people complain because of the low frequency noise that's one thing but when they're in the middle of a field or even out at see, I think they're fine and to be encouraged (to a degree).

What are people's thoughts on them?

There is only one Angel of the North so you can more or less like it or ignore it,but there are thousands of windmills.

My problem with them is cost.How can they represent a sensible sustainable energy policy when they only produce when the wind blows,and that is unreliable and does not correspond to demand.The result is that wind energy has to be backed up and duplicated by other producers so we have power at all times.This cannot be efficent.As for the offshore "farms" they must be just the same,only vastly more expensive to build and maintain.
Im all in favour of "green" energy,but not this nonsense.

[Amadeus]

Im all in favour of "green" energy,but not this nonsense.


Slight derail I suppose but what do you consider the alternatives?

[Biker Biggles]

Slight derail I suppose but what do you consider the alternatives?

If we spent as much R&D money on alternatives as we have pi$$ed away on wind we might have got workable tidal power(100% predictable and reliable)or geothermal up and running.Who knows what is possible if we get rid of the all consuming wind lobby vested interests?

[NTECUK]

read this "The UK could meet a fifth of its power needs – the equivalent of nine nuclear power stations – by exploiting geothermal power, a new report into the technology has found.
But the report found that the current subsidy regime (http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jul/16/decc-carbon-tech-budget-cut) does not provide sufficient incentive to develop the technology in the UK".
Shame looks quite a good plan

[phi-dan]

Annoyingly, most of those options have been researched extensively in Cornwall, but haven't gone anywhere due to lack of research investment. There's an underwater power socket near Hayle / St Ives for wave power projects to connect to - so far only one test setup plugged in. There was a huge geothermal research station in a quarry just outside Falmouth, but that got scaled back. There is also a substantial number of solar farms. One of my friends owns an alternative energy company, and despite a portfolio of solar, hydro, geothermal and wind, it's only the wind that gets any attention
Edit: there's also a couple of waste to energy schemes that are fighting to get started.

[maviczap]

I'm not against wind turbines, in the right place they look fine. I can see hundreds off my coastline. But they're far far away & aren't an eyesore. Why can't they be designed to be like windmills?

Around these parts they've provided useful employment opportunities in unemployment black spots, so that can't be a bad thing.

But until the lights & Tv start to go out, no ones going to start rattling our Governments cages to get some proper alternatives going.

I'd like to see tidal, solar, Bio plants & geothermal being put to better use.

A colleague of mine is on his local parish council and they're looking at getting their village to pay & install a bio plant, which on a small scale is great for rural communities. The cost to each resident wasn't that high.

The Nimby's around here including Griff Rhys Jones have stopped a Solar energy field being developed, which according to the plan would have been hidden behind hedges. Ok it was going to be somewhere in the Stour Valley which is very picturesque, but if you can't see it whats the problem?

A power station burning straw as fuel near Eye was also objected to. The local farmers thought the price of straw would go up!

A solar field was built just off the A14 & it looks better than the slurry lake next to it.

So let the lights start going out, so that folk can't watch Strictly Come Bake Off and see what happens.

[NTECUK]

If the lights go of during strictly come x factor sure surely that's a good thing ?? ?? ?? ??

[maviczap]

Yes, from my point of viewit'd improve Saturday nights 3000%

But the impact would be stunning

[Amadeus]

if you can't see it whats the problem?



They make a low frequency noise which some people can hear better than others and if you can hear it from your house, that could be considered a problem

[PyroUK]

They make a low frequency noise which some people can hear better than others and if you can hear it from your house, that could be considered a problem


Solar?

[ethariel]

Wind Farms are a pain in the bum, there have been several differing studies and all differ on optimal concentration but it's the Government subsidies that are making people rush to install them.

Put up too many in any given area and you generate too much electricity as the grid can't take the input so you get paid to keep them turned off, so you put in more in the same area and rotate duty to increase lifespan and get more in subsidies to keep them off.

When they are on, thier input can vary from around 0% to maybe 6% of the total UK power generation.

Nice little site to see is

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

[phi-dan]

Holy thread resurrection!
In a bizarre twist that only speaks of incompetence at the highest levels, one of the wind farms in Cornwall has been turned off. Several acres of solar farm have just been brought on-line in the fields surrounding the turbines, and the grid can't handle the power injection of both! You'd have thought that would have been considered at the planning stage.

[maviczap]

They'll need a 13amp fuse I guess

[L3nny]

I'm much happier buying my lectric from power stations fuelled by Russian and Arabian terrorists, who else would buy our football clubs?

[Spank86]

They stuff up my radar

perhaps your planes should fly higher?

:p;)

[Bibio]

more of a job creating exercise than a power generating one.

how long do they last?
how much power do they produce in that time?
what is the cost per KW of power produced?

its public money that is being used to create these wind farms but do the public see a reduction in the cost of electricity at their meter.. no. so why not?

my personal feeling is that the money/research would have been better spent on producing a better conductor other than copper. you can produce as much electricity as you like but if your going to be getting losses of 20% just through the infrastructure then whats the point. the copper conductor has not been changed since electricity was first produced. talk about backwards.

if they really wanted to go green then they would install a small turbine and solar panel on every rooftop in the country so each house was generating its own power with a backup of the grid. but that wont make fat cats fatter.

[Spank86]

my personal feeling is that the money/research would have been better spent on producing a better conductor other than copper. you can produce as much electricity as you like but if your going to be getting losses of 20% just through the infrastructure then whats the point. the copper conductor has not been changed since electricity was first produced. talk about backwards.

well Gold is better but not by enough and is too expensive and too rare.

Graphene is the one they're currently working on but it's got a ways to go. You can be assured though that there are plenty of people looking at the problem.

[PyroUK]

Graphene is definitely the way forward at the moment but production isn't at a reasonable scale yet, nor the research far along enough.

In the long run that would be the way to go, and in the mean time stick with copper as it would be a waste of resources looking at stop gap alternatives

[maviczap]

more of a job creating exercise than a power generating one.

how long do they last?
how much power do they produce in that time?
what is the cost per KW of power produced?

its public money that is being used to create these wind farms but do the public see a reduction in the cost of electricity at their meter.. no. so why not?

my personal feeling is that the money/research would have been better spent on producing a better conductor other than copper. you can produce as much electricity as you like but if your going to be getting losses of 20% just through the infrastructure then whats the point. the copper conductor has not been changed since electricity was first produced. talk about backwards.

if they really wanted to go green then they would install a small turbine and solar panel on every rooftop in the country so each house was generating its own power with a backup of the grid. but that wont make fat cats fatter.


Well the current off shore ones will never recoup the amount of energy used to install them, as the amount of fuel used by the installation ships is so high. But at the time, the EU targets were so great, that UK PLC had to start installing them, and off shore faced fewer objections than on shore wind turbines.

I agree with you sticking solar panels on every roof in the UK would have been better IMHO, or heat pumps?

[yorkie_chris]

more of a job creating exercise than a power generating one.

how long do they last?
how much power do they produce in that time?
what is the cost per KW of power produced?

its public money that is being used to create these wind farms but do the public see a reduction in the cost of electricity at their meter.. no. so why not?

my personal feeling is that the money/research would have been better spent on producing a better conductor other than copper. you can produce as much electricity as you like but if your going to be getting losses of 20% just through the infrastructure then whats the point. the copper conductor has not been changed since electricity was first produced. talk about backwards.

if they really wanted to go green then they would install a small turbine and solar panel on every rooftop in the country so each house was generating its own power with a backup of the grid. but that wont make fat cats fatter.

And of course making them and disposing of them doesn't use any carbon at all... :rolleyes:

[Heorot]

I read some time ago that if you added up all the energy cost to build a windmill (cement production, transport, manufacturing, installation etc) it would be more than the amount it generated in its lifetime.

[timwilky]

Slight derail I suppose but what do you consider the alternatives?

Tidal! I have worked with part of my organisation that has just completed testing of 1MW tidal turbines and is about to start working on the ideal layout of farms, i.e. what is the effect of turbine induced turbulence on the efficiency of downstream turbines.

Unlike wind. Tides are entirely predictable. The ones we are developing rotate so that they can utilise ebb and flow tides, and are buoyant, thus not requiring heavy lift equipment on board to fit/retrieve for maintenance. simply drag them out, supposedly they can be fitted/retrieved in less than an hour.

see here (http://www.alstom.com/products-services/product-catalogue/power-generation/renewable-energy/ocean-energy/tidal-energy/tidal-power/)

[Biker Biggles]

Tidal! I have worked with part of my organisation that has just completed testing of 1GW tidal turbines and is about to start working on the ideal layout of farms, i.e. what is the effect of turbine induced turbulence on the efficiency of downstream turbines.

Unlike wind. Tides are entirely predictable. The ones we are developing rotate so that they can utilise ebb and flow tides, and are buoyant, thus not requiring heavy lift equipment on board to fit/retrieve for maintenance. simply drag them out, supposedly they can be fitted/retrieved in less than an hour.

see here (http://www.alstom.com/products-services/product-catalogue/power-generation/renewable-energy/ocean-energy/tidal-energy/tidal-power/)

Absolutely.Its a scandal that we have wasted so much money and so many years on windmills.
The drawback with tidal is that there is a period of an hour or so every six hours when the tide stops running and goes back the other way,but this period is different according to location.Thus a system of tide turbines spread out around the whole coastline would mean constant output to the grid.Neither solar nor wind can give that.

[timwilky]

BB. you need in our system, some of the lull time to rotate the turbine so it is now facing the ebb tide. and yes, you also need a distribution to ensure continuous generation. But at least you get more than the unpredicability of wind.

Now what I do think scandalous, Is that we do not store excess electrical generation. Yes, you can have pumped hydro such as Dinorwig in Wales for peak demand. But my favorite would be.

Local heat and power for large estates, use excess renewable capacity for creating hydrogen. then in turn use this storable gas to feed large local fuel cells for power generation for local use and use the waste heat through recovery into a pumped heating solution. All nice and clean, when the hydrogen is used, it simply creates heat and water.

I doubt, the wisdom of a hydrogen grid for delivery, so probably best using local secure storage. But even the delivery vehicles could be clean hydrogen powered.

Not efficient use/reuse of the excess capacity, but it does actually make use of it. No point having the capability of using the wind if you have no use for it.

[yorkie_chris]

Tim I did wonder about using vertical axis turbine for tide, that way you have no need to rotate them for ebb and flow. Although turbulence would be certainly worse.

Hope it gets done, would be some great artificial reefs with the foundations and stuff too.

Absolutely.Its a scandal that we have wasted so much money and so many years on windmills.
The drawback with tidal is that there is a period of an hour or so every six hours when the tide stops running and goes back the other way,but this period is different according to location.Thus a system of tide turbines spread out around the whole coastline would mean constant output to the grid.Neither solar nor wind can give that.

Slack is different based on where you are but I think the overall flow does reduce nationwide, just because it's flowing somewhere doesn't mean it's still flowing enough everywhere.

Would it still be flowing enough I dunno.

[Bibio]

Tim makes a good suggestion about using excess energy to produce hydrogen but instead of hydrogen gas produce hydrogen powder.

the powder is then distributed nationwide at fuel stations and is a lot safer than gas. when the powder is spent via a fuel cell it will create pure water. this water is then kept onboard the vehicle. when filling up at the fuel stations with hydrogen powder the water tank is emptied at the same time and sent back to the hydrogen plant. this solves the problem of water all over the roads as a by-product and being pure water is a lot easier to separate back at the plant.

the public are still buying a fuel, the gov still make their money and everyone is happy.

battery powered vehicles are dirty things.

[Spank86]

Tim makes a good suggestion about using excess energy to produce hydrogen but instead of hydrogen gas produce hydrogen powder.

the powder is then distributed nationwide at fuel stations and is a lot safer than gas. when the powder is spent via a fuel cell it will create pure water.
Pure water and what?

Hydrogen wont just form a solid because you ask nicely, it would need to be combined with something to form a solid molecule which would release hydrogen gas.

I think one suggestion was ammonium borate, but I'd be concerned IF that was going to result in cars pumping out particulate boron, That stuffs fine for humans but not good for a lot of insects.

[littleoldman2]

Hydrogen peroxide is the obvious choice. A fuel in itself, but not exactly green to make.

[Spank86]

Hydrogen peroxide is the obvious choice. A fuel in itself, but not exactly green to make.
...and not a powder... and bleach.

[littleoldman2]

A solid at around 0deg C from memory.

[Luckypants]

Now what I do think scandalous, Is that we do not store excess electrical generation. Yes, you can have pumped hydro such as Dinorwig in Wales for peak demand.

Will this technology help? http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall

[Spank86]

A solid at around 0deg C from memory.

So we're going to freeze it and powder it? Although that would mean freezing it even colder since powder isn't generally great at staying cold due to surface area, and you really wouldn't want the surface melting and bleaching everything and generally being a pain.

Or freeze it and cube it? I suppose that could work but It seems still fraught with problems. We'd really need something that's solid at room temperature or a less reactive liquid at room temperature.

[Bibio]

i'll leave all the sciency stuff to the nerd heads all i know is that there already is hydrogen powder being used to create energy using oxy from the atmosphere via a fuel cell. how do i know this... well i know the man that has a fuel cell motorbike powered by the stuff.

[Spank86]

i'll leave all the sciency stuff to the nerd heads all i know is that there already is hydrogen powder being used to create energy using oxy from the atmosphere via a fuel cell. how do i know this... well i know the man that has a fuel cell motorbike powered by the stuff.

I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm just saying hydrogen alone isn't gonna be powder at room temperature or anything close. It needs another element and that elements got to go somewhere during or after the reaction.

[Bibio]

yup i agree, next time i see him i'll ask what extra emissions/by-products are created. might even blag a go on it.. lol

[timwilky]

Tim I did wonder about using vertical axis turbine for tide, that way you have no need to rotate them for ebb and flow. Although turbulence would be certainly worse.

Hope it gets done, would be some great artificial reefs with the foundations and stuff too.



Slack is different based on where you are but I think the overall flow does reduce nationwide, just because it's flowing somewhere doesn't mean it's still flowing enough everywhere.

Would it still be flowing enough I dunno.

Chris. I am having serious doubts as to how a vertical axis tidal turbine could work. Perhaps I am not visualising it right, but you couldn't simply turn a turbine such as ours through 90 degrees and it work as the blades would effectively be balanced (well out of as there wouldn't be an exact 1:1 relationship) as the opposite blades would be exposed to the same tidal flow. You would therefore need to somehow channel the flow to direct force against one side of the turbine system. Perhaps this would work with a lagoon/barrage type of scenario, where you allow inflow to build, shut the in gates and open the out once a height differential has been achieved. the wet tree huggers would be horrified at this as they get all upset at how mud flats etc are used. However, think of some potential, a barrage from Fleetwood to Barrow, saves a 100 miles of round the penisular roads, Allow Morecambe bay to flood twice a day to generate power with a huge potential of storage. Win Win.

Horrified though, such nerdy thoughts on a bike forum

[yorkie_chris]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darrieus_wind_turbine

Lift based or there are drag based solutions, basically buckets that are a bit streamlined from the front but catch a load of wind/water from the back.

Better for tidal since you don't have to worry about gusts in the tide or overspeed.

Dealing with the fortnightly variation in the tides could be an interesting problem though.

[Bibio]

i seem to recall that there has been bridges built that utilise estuary flow to create energy, they installed turbines in the main structures.

you could more than likely power the whole of Scotland utilising the volume of water flowing through the Tay but i dont think the public would be too happy about turning the Tay into one big giant hydro plant.. lol

all variations in the tide have already been calculated and there is a journal that has all of the upcoming tides for the next 'insert dates' for each part of the coastline.

[yorkie_chris]

I suppose there will always be a need for the gas or other plants that can fire up quickly to deal with things like cuppa tea time in the middle of eastenders when it happens to coincide with slack water, until they suss the storage issues.

[Spank86]

but you couldn't simply turn a turbine such as ours through 90 degrees and it work as the blades would effectively be balanced (well out of as there wouldn't be an exact 1:1 relationship) as the opposite blades would be exposed to the same tidal flow. You would therefore need to somehow channel the flow to direct force against one side of the turbine system.

I'm not sure what you're picturing but I'd suggest Chris is visualizing something similar to a ship screw where rotation in one direction pushes water one way, rotation in the other does the opposite. The opposite of this would be moving water turning the screw in one direction and moving in the other turning it the other way.

[yorkie_chris]

No not like a screw, look up the Darrieus wind turbine I link to above.

They rotate same regardless of fluid flow direction.

[PyroUK]

Those look really cool Chris

[Spank86]

No not like a screw, look up the Darrieus wind turbine I link to above.

They rotate same regardless of fluid flow direction.
I'm confused as to why you'd need to rotate that design?

Surely then it works in either direction of water flow?

[yorkie_chris]

I'm confused as to why you'd need to rotate that design?

Surely then it works in either direction of water flow?

Yeah that's the point, save all the hassle of making the machine have to rotate 180 degrees.

Maybe you misread, I mean they rotate, as in spin, to do the work of turning the generator.

[Spank86]

Yeah that's the point, save all the hassle of making the machine have to rotate 180 degrees.

Maybe you misread, I mean they rotate, as in spin, to do the work of turning the generator.

Oh I see, I thought you meant the whole assembly had to be rotated during slack tide to face the other way. It seemed a little bit crazy I must admit.

[yorkie_chris]

I think they'd have advantages, since there are no gusts in tide.

Lots of places on the west coast where the currents absolutely rip, like 7+ knots, and are also sheltered from the worst of oceanic swell.

[454697819]

we all need energy - and the whilst I am no hippy, is Nuclear the way forward?

Its a bit like meat we mostly all eat it but most don't want to see it being processed or acknowledge how it got to our plates -

We all use energy but sometimes we now need to see where it comes from to have it - seems fair to me.

Id have one in my back garden if I was allowed.

[Amadeus]

David Hahn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hahn) wasn't a NIMBY kind of guy when it came to energy. That was a nuclear reactor tho... :-)