The English justice system is not fit for purpose

[Bluepete]

Discuss.

Case in point.

I dealt with a lad who within a week of being released from Her Maj's pleasure, drove a stolen car dangerously around Bolton whilst disqualified from driving, off his head on cocaine, bladdered on a bottle of vodka, failing to stop at three separate collisions ending up on three wheels when one fell off. He had no insurance either!

He was convicted today of seven offences and what punishment did the Crown Court Judge impose?

12 months suspended sentence. That's right, he won't see the inside of an HMP establishment.

I've now got to tell the 19 victims and witnesses exactly what's happened.

How many of them do you think will feel justice has been served with this pathetic, lenient joke of a sentence?

I'm not a "hang 'em high" kind of Cop, I know the courts will keep as many people out of prison as possible, but this guy drove like a maniac with no Cops chasing him. We only caught up with him once he'd crashed into an HGV and run off.

I'm fully aware that the .org, with its vast life experience will have many anecdotes along a similar line. Maybe you think he's been treated fairly.

I, for one, am very dissolusioned by the whole thing.

Pete

[kaivalagi]

Did they give any reasoning why he didn't get what he deserved....sounds like a complete travesty to me!

Even without knowing all the facts if someone has previous inside time how the hell can they then get a suspended sentence for a serious crime...don't make sense to me

[Bibio]

so what happens if he goes out and kills someone?

is the justice system responsible for the actions of said individual due to knowing that he will commit the same offence again?

its about time that the law system in this country be held accountable for its decisions and actions regarding public care and protection. maybe start to fine the courts and judges if they make a mistake, that might just make them think twice. its also about time they started building more prison's and not made them like a holiday camp for the inmates.

keep up the good work Pete and i do understand why a lot of the police officers are so abrupt these days knowing that the system they are working for does not help them do their job properly.

i'll give it a maximum of 20 years and the country will have a privatised law system along with the NHS and fire brigade.

[NTECUK]

so what happens if he goes out and kills someone?

is the justice system responsible for the actions of said individual due to knowing that he will commit the same offence again?



This. http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/Derby-drink-driver-caught-times-11-years-avoids/story-22870818-detail/story.html
http://road.cc/content/news/107394-suspended-sentence-and-12-month-ban-driver-who-killed-suffolk-cyclist

[L3nny]

It's like those crappy cop shows where they follow the force around. You'll get some bloke who only has a provisional, with no insurance, in a car he's "borrowed" weaving all over the road. The police catch him, spend half an hour trying to get his real name, he then gets taken to the police station, forms are filled in, he's then sent to court taking up dozens of man hours and hundreds of pounds of tax payers money.

They then say at the end, the guy was found guilty and given a £100 fine and a 3 month ban on the license he doesn't even have!

But then what are you going to do? The fines are only paid out of dole benefits anyway and sending them to prison would cost 10 times as much.

[timwilky]

Not exactly proud of this, but I have a family member who was no good in his youth.

Through the juvenile courts, because of his age etc. He gets probation, his mates get 6 months borstal and never offend again, as a big boy he eventually ends up on 6 months suspended when he pinches a car battery and gets 12 month. Talk about arrogance, none of us knew until he failed to come home one day and two days later we were contacted by the police to remove his car from the car park in front of the magistrates court.

Fast forward 30 years he is a totally different person and would be horrified if any of his peers ever found out he had been locked up. 12 months incarceration starting off in Walton for a few months certainly put the fear into him. He came out never wanting to return.

That was a time of the short sharp shock era, it worked for his mates. Big boys prison worked for him. It would be interesting to see the economics of a harsh initialcustodial sentence versus years of understanding and help by do gooders that fails to turn round offending behavior.

[ophic]

Correct me if I'm wrong but they always seem to punish the harm that was done, not the decision leading to it.

For example, I punch someone. If he then falls and hits his head on the pavement and dies, I'll get done for manslaughter. If I do the same and he just gets a bruise, I'll get done for ABH probably.

Point being in both cases I did exactly the same. I made the same decision and the outcome was different. Surely the error of my ways is what should be punished, ie don't punch people.

The sentence should take into consideration the maximum possible damage that you might have done, not what actually happened because you were lucky.

[Biker Biggles]

Discuss.

Case in point.

I dealt with a lad who within a week of being released from Her Maj's pleasure, drove a stolen car dangerously around Bolton whilst disqualified from driving, off his head on cocaine, bladdered on a bottle of vodka, failing to stop at three separate collisions ending up on three wheels when one fell off. He had no insurance either!

He was convicted today of seven offences and what punishment did the Crown Court Judge impose?

12 months suspended sentence. That's right, he won't see the inside of an HMP establishment.

I've now got to tell the 19 victims and witnesses exactly what's happened.

How many of them do you think will feel justice has been served with this pathetic, lenient joke of a sentence?

I'm not a "hang 'em high" kind of Cop, I know the courts will keep as many people out of prison as possible, but this guy drove like a maniac with no Cops chasing him. We only caught up with him once he'd crashed into an HGV and run off.

I'm fully aware that the .org, with its vast life experience will have many anecdotes along a similar line. Maybe you think he's been treated fairly.

I, for one, am very dissolusioned by the whole thing.

Pete

I think prison should be a last resort used to protect society from those who pose a danger.
Seems to me this guy qualifies well for a bit of porridge.

[Biker Biggles]

Not exactly proud of this, but I have a family member who was no good in his youth.

Through the juvenile courts, because of his age etc. He gets probation, his mates get 6 months borstal and never offend again, as a big boy he eventually ends up on 6 months suspended when he pinches a car battery and gets 12 month. Talk about arrogance, none of us knew until he failed to come home one day and two days later we were contacted by the police to remove his car from the car park in front of the magistrates court.

Fast forward 30 years he is a totally different person and would be horrified if any of his peers ever found out he had been locked up. 12 months incarceration starting off in Walton for a few months certainly put the fear into him. He came out never wanting to return.

That was a time of the short sharp shock era, it worked for his mates. Big boys prison worked for him. It would be interesting to see the economics of a harsh initialcustodial sentence versus years of understanding and help by do gooders that fails to turn round offending behavior.

Interesting story Tim.
To me it shows that we get it wrong on two counts.Firstly your relly needed some firm treatment early to knock a bit of sense into him and didnt get it.
Secondly,he is now clearly a decent person who has a job and responsibilities but he still has a record.That would prevent him getting employment in a large number of jobs where he might be well suited.His convictions will be all "spent" by now,but still show on the CRB checks done in any employment that involves dealing with the public where there is any possibility of trust being breached.Somehow I doubt if someone who went off the rails when young but got back on them again is any worse a risk than someone who never got caught or anyone else.

[timwilky]

Interesting story Tim.
To me it shows that we get it wrong on two counts.Firstly your relly needed some firm treatment early to knock a bit of sense into him and didnt get it.
Secondly,he is now clearly a decent person who has a job and responsibilities but he still has a record.That would prevent him getting employment in a large number of jobs where he might be well suited.His convictions will be all "spent" by now,but still show on the CRB checks done in any employment that involves dealing with the public where there is any possibility of trust being breached.Somehow I doubt if someone who went off the rails when young but got back on them again is any worse a risk than someone who never got caught or anyone else.

Agreed, we were all surprised in how he was able to take the system for a ride, a few months borstal aged 13 would have sort him out early. As it was he thought the justice system a joke. He actually burgled his place of work and was caught having burgled his former place of work. Both damn good employers and personal family friends who we knew through professional relationships. Talk about embarrassing going to see them to discuss their work, all know what he had done.

As for "history", it came back to bit him on the bum a few years ago when he was the victim of a particularly nasty assault. Whilst trying to throw him down a flight of stairs, one of the attackers fell as well and suffered a broken neck. As a result he (the victim of the assault) was charged with GBH, as if a criminal history from 30 years ago meant he was still a bad one who had simply got away with it for so long. 3 adjourned appearances in the crown court before the CPS finally admitted they had it wrong. All the time hoping he would plead guilty for a lighter sentence.

[maviczap]

Getting this back on track Pete I know where you're coming from. Having put together cases that involved loads of effort and time, only to see the culprit get off with nothing drives me & my colleagues mad.

The judge would have been given sentencing guidelines by the clerk of the court, so I don't know what went wrong in this case, but its not right.

We were taught to get it to court and after that if you got a guilty verdict that was the result you wanted, no matter what sentence was dished out. But in this case it isn't right.

[Spank86]

Hasn't crime been pretty much falling since the mid 90s?

[orose]

Putting one of my logoed hats on for a second, I'd have to say that the sentencing surrounding motoring offences is so far out of whack with the rest of the system, that it needs shaking to its core until all the **** falls out.

Sentences like this and some of the others that have been handed down from judges who are supposed to be setting things right make both the police and the general public disillusioned with the whole thing, and give the people who are willing to go beyond the law a feeling of invincibility. This is doubled by the part where there will almost certainly be an appeal to follow this case, as it's too harsh...

Luckily, there is a sentencing review upcoming, and we intend to make sure that killers especially start getting sentences that restore public confidence.

[Nobbylad]

Anyone caught texting whilst driving should have their hands cut off. Simples

[Sir Trev]

Anyone caught texting whilst driving slowly in the middle lane of the motorway who, when you're half way past them, put their phone down and scream off at 90mph+ leaving you out to dry in lane 3 with an impatient Audi driver flashing at you for being in their way should have their hands cut off. Simples

Amended for you.

[Grant66]

Written from a cyclist perspective but supports Pete's point:

http://www.roadjustice.org.uk/road-justice-reports

Interesting read especially the courts and sentencing report ; they also have an area to report dangerous drivers.

[ClunkintheUK]

I can't read the stuff on sentencing on RTC's especially those involving cyclists. It really makes my blood boil. When you look at the injuries that people have sustained and compare the sentencing to what they would get if it was assault that resulted in those injuries.

[littleoldman2]

At least this instance was a little better

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/ashington-drugs-baron-smashes-bmw-8064932

[Red Herring]

Pete mate, just hang in there and do the best job you can to put the right people in front of the court with the best possible evidence against them. That way even if they fail to do what they should you can go home knowing that you did your best, and the bottom line is that is what counts in the end.

There is a light at the end of the tunnel, I've just got there and looking back I've regretted the few times I didn't follow that advice.

[maviczap]

Amen

I can see light at the end of the tunnel too, I just hope the tunnel isn't extended at my age

[ChrisCurvyS]

As others have said, I think the problem is that the legal system focuses too much on outcomes, rather than actions.

A woman in her 60s I work with has just been sent to prison for three years for death by dangerous driving. What did she do? Failed to see an elderly woman who had walked out into the road - wasn't speeding or on the phone but was looking off to her left apparently.

She's likely to lose her job, in turn her home, god knows what prison will do to her - just because she looked away from the road for a few seconds and had the misfortune for someone to step out in front of her.

Meanwhile pretty much on a daily basis I see all manner of dangerous driving inc people weaving all over the road while texting, overtaking across double white lines into oncoming traffic etc and absolutely naff all happens to them.

[Dipper]

A woman in her 60s I work with has just been sent to prison for three years for death by dangerous driving. What did she do? Failed to see an elderly woman who had walked out into the road - wasn't speeding or on the phone but was looking off to her left apparently.

Sounds more like careless to me?

[Bluepete]

Sounds more like careless to me?

Me too. That sounds exactly what the offence of "causing death by driving without due care" was brought in for.
As usual though, I would rather have a LOT more info before deciding.

Pete ;)

[Biker Biggles]

Me too. That sounds exactly what the offence of "causing death by driving without due care" was brought in for.
As usual though, I would rather have a LOT more info before deciding.

Pete ;)

Either way that is not what I think prison should be for.It seems more like a vindictive response to someone who has made a mistake with sad results.For me prison should be for serious and repeat offenders who are likely to be a danger to society if not locked up.A bit like the twonk in the OP.

[ChrisCurvyS]

Yeah she pleaded guilty to due care, not guilty to dangerous but was convicted of the latter. Apparently the judge was rather dismayed with the verdict - I can only guess that the jury got a little emotional due to the presence of the deceased lady's family in court, and the sentencing reflects the fact that she didn't plead guilty when she could have.

Don't get me wrong - her driving clearly did fall foul of the competence test as she should have had several seconds to see the lady, who was in clear view, and brake. However, as others have said, is any purpose served by her going to prison?

By contrast, Paddy Doherty's son drove a stolen BMW M5 at absolutely insane speeds through a busy city centre during a police chase and smashed head-on into another car. But because he was lucky enough not to kill anyone, he got just 18 months! So will serve less than a year. Watch the vid to see I'm not exaggerating - http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2014/09/26/caught-on-camera-son-of-tv-star-paddy-doherty-leads-police-on-eight-mile-car-chase/

[aoleks]

just for the record, the justice system is broken in all of Europe, not just the UK. I can tell from my personal experience that the Dutch system is just as "pussyfied" as the British one, if not worse!