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View Full Version : (Ultra)Minor Collision (Car) video - Fault?


Dave20046
30-01-15, 12:08 PM
Just a quick question/perspective check, on my drive to work this morning a coach didn't mirror check and cut a corner by dipping into my left-hand filter lane. He got gradually closer and didn't dip back out until he hit me (at which point I had to go up the pavement and beeped).

He went off and with a scratch on my car I rang up the coach operator for a moan thinking if the driver does that route often and doesn't clock the hazard there'll be another knock (a nervous biker might have ditched it, especially as it was sub 0 degrees). Rather than saying 'oh I'll look into it/speak to the driver' they said 'we don't operate coaches anywhere near there' ... they went on to say without a reg they won't do anything. So they've annoyed me a bit now and I'm prepared to waste a bit of time with the complaint...

So in short, before I send them the below I just want others' perspective on it in case they try to turn it round on me and even try to claim something.

http://youtu.be/AXNjVqTlWZk
AXNjVqTlWZk

Note: it looks a lot quicker once it's been processed by moviemaker and uploaded, or maybe it's just because the clips been snipped it feels it- it's definitely sub 30mph (which was the speed limit) and I'd guess around 20mph. Next time I go there I'll definitely be reviewing speed but I don't feel it caused the knock.

ophic
30-01-15, 12:21 PM
I'd say bad lane discipline on the part of the coach. Quite possibly genuine mistake but nevertheless he's at fault.

There's no risk of being accused of undertaking as his lane is queuing.

And yeah if the coach company deny everything that would get my back up as well.

Teejayexc
30-01-15, 12:21 PM
From what I can see, the coach driver wasn't particularly at fault. Narrow lanes and you could see the curve was tightening up so could have hung back imho.

tactcom7
30-01-15, 12:22 PM
Hi Dave, watched the vid a few times, whilst it looks a little like you sneaked up the inside of him, you were in your own lane and well within your rights to do so. Just looks like a case of him not checking his mirrors and clipping your lane. How bad's the scratch?

ophic
30-01-15, 12:24 PM
But the coach driver could see all that as well and should have positioned his coach better - and checked his mirror before encroaching on the other lane.

Even better if the coach should not have been anywhere near there as perhaps the road isn't suitable.

Dave20046
30-01-15, 12:55 PM
Cheers, as I approached the coach and truck were stationary, my left lane was completely clear. My understanding was that even if they were moving if they are 'queued' I could pass on the left...sounds like

Yeah , their attitude ****ed me off. I rang up on a 'wouldn't mind talking to the driver' basis and they're denying all knowledge of operating near there (they're based 20miles away if that) and aren't prepared to ask any likely drivers (email/message in staffroom?) if they were near there in the interests of safety.
Hopefully just so cautious in case I'm trying to claim, but it did **** me off.
From what I can see, the coach driver wasn't particularly at fault. Narrow lanes and you could see the curve was tightening up so could have hung back imho.
The lane he's in is really wide, I had the curb as my escape route (wrongly or rightly!) as I did actually clock the risk but thought he'd get close then pop back into his lane. It's a major route , (30 seconds further hits a big junction onto the M1), there are constantly lorries and buses on that route.

The only thing I can think is lazyness/cocked up positioning or he was avoiding a right turner on the crossroads. He looked like he jumped when he made contact as I was watching him in his mirror .

Dave20046
30-01-15, 01:00 PM
Hi Dave, watched the vid a few times, whilst it looks a little like you sneaked up the inside of him, you were in your own lane and well within your rights to do so. Just looks like a case of him not checking his mirrors and clipping your lane. How bad's the scratch?

minor...2 or 3 inches of paint swapping on the mirror is all I've noticed to be honest. As soon as he touched my mirror I started going up the curb (I was already clipping it before it folded in).

I thought not a lot of it, then he drove off without hesitation which got my back up a little, then the supervisors attitude got me properly annoyed.

Bibio
30-01-15, 01:31 PM
you seen it narrow up, you slowed down but you just carried on instead of matching a pace that would have let the coach go clear before you proceeded. so in reality you scratched your wing mirror along the side of his coach. both at fault.

TamSV
30-01-15, 01:38 PM
I wouldn't take it personally. I place the insurance for some large vehicle fleets and they are bombarded by chancers who are either totally at it, or genuinely get hit by an HGV and just take down the reg of the next one they see.

With telematics and on-board cameras we can prove when the vehicle wasn't there but not every fleet has those.

They have to do something to cut down the number of time waster so many firms will adopt a standard practice with these minor damage claims of denying them all and see which ones take it further. They're not being arsey for the sake of it, just pragmatic.

I reckon you could probably get something out of a claim - he did enter your lane. I've got some sympathy for him though as he had a truck waiting to turn right that he had to avoid and, if he checked his mirrors a few seconds before the incident, he had clear space on his left before you arrived.

If I was working for the coach company I'd offer a 50/50 and, depending on how motivated the people are working for you, I MIGHT get it. If you put a claim in yourself I'm afraid I'd ignore it - I'd make you report it to your insurers and deal through them. The potential consequences to your own insurance premium might put you off.

You may consider that doesn't make me a good person but these guys are working on wafer thin margins and insurance is a huge hit for them so they need the best result from every claim. They need to defend their livelihoods and the enlightened will pay a **** like me to do it for them. :)

Apart from the chancers, the second category of car drivers that cause problems for large vehicles are those who stuff it up the inside, usually on roundabouts, then get hit. The vehicles rear wheels are going to follow the shortest route and if these guys didn't invade lanes they wouldn't get anywhere. Fleet owners feel a bit aggrieved that these incidents usually go against them so they want them defended.

You saw the potential hazard, you could have held back. With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, there's something both of you could have done differently to avoid that collision.

Unless the damage to your car is significant, I'd chalk it up to experience. Having said that, the way I make my living does make me incredibly biased.

Dave20046
30-01-15, 02:51 PM
Cheers Tam, bit of an insight. I've no intention to claim though - I just don't like their attitude that 'because I've got a chance of getting off scott-free... it never happened' . It's irresponsible and annoying...but I do accept I'm fussing over nothing. I'm more annoyed that I've realised it's knocked a brake light out (gotta spend 5 mins swapping it now!) than I am annoyed about it scratching the car.

you seen it narrow up, you slowed down but you just carried on instead of matching a pace that would have let the coach go clear before you proceeded. so in reality you scratched your wing mirror along the side of his coach. both at fault.
If he stayed static (in his own lane he wouldn't have come into my lane) I think it's a fair enough assumption that people won't come largely into your lane randomly. He was over by at least half a foot in my lane and he wasn't even in my lane when I committed to pass.
I must admit though I'd clocked it as a hazard and had an 'escape route' planned. That's self preservation more than 'fault' (legal) though surely Bib?

FG1
30-01-15, 03:05 PM
Get them on the back heel by ringing again and saying that as they don't operate in that area you have contacted the traffic commissioner and VOSA as you believe there me be a coach company operating in the area in the guise of another company. Tell them that you have done this on their behalf as you feel it only right that VOSA be notified to protect the coach company in case of future accidents.
This will get the transport manager giving it a little more attention....

Spank86
30-01-15, 05:10 PM
What you cant see is what's in the lane to the right of him, He may have been over as far as he was to avoid hitting something there, I don't know the area but quite often it's almost impossible for large vehicles to stay in lane on both sides at similar junctions round my way and as such I wouldn't nip up the inside unless I was sure I could pop through before it narrowed.

Not that I'm suggesting you did anything wrong as such, just that I personally wouldn't have positioned myself in the same way from past experience.

Teejayexc
30-01-15, 06:24 PM
The lane he's in is really wide, I had the curb as my escape route (wrongly or rightly!) as I did actually clock the risk but thought he'd get close then pop back into his lane.

The fact you say you'd assessed the risk and then decided to carry on with your manouevre instead of backing off and waiting for a few moments makes you as much to blame I reckon.

Dave20046
30-01-15, 06:41 PM
Fg1 like it- although I guess I could just say 'well I'm submitting camera footage to my insurer and they can talk to your driver. Though like Tam says maybe they'll call that bluff! Your idea might be a plan to get to have a word with the driver!What you cant see is what's in the lane to the right of him, He may have been over as far as he was to avoid hitting something there, I don't know the area but quite often it's almost impossible for large vehicles to stay in lane on both sides at similar junctions round my way and as such I wouldn't nip up the inside unless I was sure I could pop through before it narrowed.

Not that I'm suggesting you did anything wrong as such, just that I personally wouldn't have positioned myself in the same way from past experience.

It's a-road 6109 if you want to look Spank. I think I get what you mean but I'm in a debating mood on this one :) ... By positioning differently do you mean slow until the coach has passed the junction before passing?(being pedantic as technically road positions wise I couldn't be any further left )
As I approached he was entirely in his own lane as I decided to pass, as he started to close in over the line I took the decision to plough on and move if he got much closer which is what happened ( though I didn't want him to clip my mirror before I did!)- don't get me wrong on a bike I probably wouldn't have accepted that risk... But I reckon most car drivers would have... If even clocking it as a hazard. You don't see many cars slamming on the anchors because a lorry toed the white line.
If he was avoiding something on the right he should have checked his mirror (or maybe he did it at the wrong interval?) if that was the case I'd want the driver to tell me that and maybe explain why he didn't stop, and then I'd have thought 'accidents happen'. It's annoying that I can't even talk to that driver because they're obstructing that conversation.

Dave20046
30-01-15, 06:47 PM
The fact you say you'd assessed the risk and then decided to carry on with your manouevre instead of backing off and waiting for a few moments makes you as much to blame I reckon.

I agree to an extent I think, maybe why I'm questioning it- but I was worried 'biker sense' was skewing my opinion.


Asking in terms of 'legal blame' rather than what would actually avoid the scenario in the future.My real question is, if I submit that footage to them as leverage to talk to the driver... Are they likely to start an insurance claim and try to get me in the s*it for the inevitable whiplash the driver and all his passengers suffered

Kenzie
30-01-15, 06:49 PM
I think its 50/50. Poor positioning of the coach, but as Bibio said you should have foreseen the possibility of the coach cutting the corner slightly and hung back a bit. Or possibly stopped once you realised he had started to move.
Tough one, but each of us may have done something different if faced with this situation.

Dave20046
30-01-15, 06:55 PM
The fact you say you'd assessed the risk and then decided to carry on with your manouevre instead of backing off and waiting for a few moments makes you as much to blame I reckon.

I think its 50/50. Poor positioning of the coach, but as Bibio said you should have foreseen the possibility of the coach cutting the corner slightly and hung back a bit. Or possibly stopped once you realised he had started to move.
Tough one, but each of us may have done something different if faced with this situation.

Maybe worth noting there were cars behind me... Would have definitely got a claim in in that scenario! ( if I was that was inclined)

I've reworded my question to the org in the post above though

Biker Biggles
30-01-15, 07:03 PM
I think the coach is legally to blame because he moved across partly into your lane.Legally you had every right to be passing on the left in that lane.He should have ensured it was clear to move over.
Apart from legally though,you could have anticipated the situation and avoided it IMO

Dave20046
30-01-15, 07:14 PM
I think the coach is legally to blame because he moved across partly into your lane.Legally you had every right to be passing on the left in that lane.He should have ensured it was clear to move over.
Apart from legally though,you could have anticipated the situation and avoided it IMO

Thank you, that's what I was after!
The rights and wrongs of why those two things are different have been done death I guess. I was aware I used the word 'should' some where in this thread ,I know in biker hindsight 'he shouldn't have done that' = 'I shouldn't be dead' which is normally my thoughts on accidents...probably why I'm a bit torn.
I reckon the driver cocked up ,then thought he could do one. I'd bet on it... But not sure I'd bet my no claims bonus on it (8 years by the way folks)

Spank86
30-01-15, 07:21 PM
It's a-road 6109 if you want to look Spank. I think I get what you mean but I'm in a debating mood on this one :) ... By positioning differently do you mean slow until the coach has passed the junction before passing?(being pedantic as technically road positions wise I couldn't be any further left )
looking probably wouldn't help me much unless google managed to catch a lorry/bus on the road at the time.

I mean I'd not be parallel to the middle of a non articulated long vehicle for that for any length of time, not near corners. I'd generally either hang back just behind it so i could slow if needed or dart by quickly if i thought it wasn't going to be coming over my lane before I got though. I'd actually take more of a risk on a bike as I need less room and have more maneuverability.

Bear in mind the only 4 wheeled vehicle I drive is a van so i have to be more careful since the width of roads like that means I take up quite a lot of the lane myself and cant change a maneuver so quickly. Eitehr way I'd have been fully expecting to lose some of my lane there, although maybe not quite as much as you actually did.

Dave20046
30-01-15, 07:32 PM
looking probably wouldn't help me much unless google managed to catch a lorry/bus on the road at the time.

I mean I'd not be parallel to the middle of a non articulated long vehicle for that for any length of time, not near corners. I'd generally either hang back just behind it so i could slow if needed or dart by quickly if i thought it wasn't going to be coming over my lane before I got though. I'd actually take more of a risk on a bike as I need less room and have more maneuverability.

Bear in mind the only 4 wheeled vehicle I drive is a van so i have to be more careful since the width of roads like that means I take up quite a lot of the lane myself and cant change a maneuver so quickly. Eitehr way I'd have been fully expecting to lose some of my lane there, although maybe not quite as much as you actually did.

14747
You're in luck ! There are lorries queued there daily, separator on the right bit of lee way on the left

SvNewbie
30-01-15, 11:16 PM
221
Large vehicles. These may need extra road space to turn or to deal with a hazard that you are not able to see. If you are following a large vehicle, such as a bus or articulated lorry, be aware that the driver may not be able to see you in the mirrors. Be prepared to stop and wait if it needs room or time to turn.

The highway code is pretty clear, you probably should have slowed sooner and prepared to stop but hindsight is 20:20.

Dave20046
31-01-15, 09:16 AM
He wasn't turning though, recovering from a slight bend in the road maybe ..

MattCollins
31-01-15, 10:59 AM
Excuse my ignorance... What do the signs on the back of the coach say?

Dave20046
31-01-15, 11:23 AM
'The operator's branding and contact details and something about watching children

MattCollins
31-01-15, 11:43 AM
No caution concerning turning vehicles?

Honestly, I'd have thought it would have been drummed into the heads of every driver in the western world that stuffing it in alongside a heavy that is travelling in anything but a straight line is a bad practice.

I'd call it an obs fail... Being a rider you should know better, but this vid and discussion makes you look like another numpty in a cage.

Cheers

Dave20046
31-01-15, 11:48 AM
I'm not sure you've read my comments Matt

MattCollins
31-01-15, 11:59 AM
I read them alright...

thefallenangel
01-02-15, 11:50 AM
I think a both at fault plus just because a road sign says 30 it's not always an applicable speed for the road. Bus shouldn't of been in a rush to dodge a lorry but then the same reasoning applies to you. I can see what you want is a "toolbox" type talk to the driver to avoid the incident in the first place but then surely the same applies to you?

The coach company could of been more helpful on the phone than offensive and the small margins doesnt wash. Lots of people are on small margins because the world has got more intelligent (allegedly) so have narrowed down the costs of everything. If you employ bad drivers then expect your insurance bills to take a hit, after all you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

Dave20046
01-02-15, 08:56 PM
I think a both at fault plus just because a road sign says 30 it's not always an applicable speed for the road. Bus shouldn't of been in a rush to dodge a lorry but then the same reasoning applies to you. I can see what you want is a "toolbox" type talk to the driver to avoid the incident in the first place but then surely the same applies to you?

The coach company could of been more helpful on the phone than offensive and the small margins doesnt wash. Lots of people are on small margins because the world has got more intelligent (allegedly) so have narrowed down the costs of everything. If you employ bad drivers then expect your insurance bills to take a hit, after all you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

I've always thought ,just because you clock a hazard and accept a risk to some point doesn't make you at 'fault'. For instance a car on a driveway's reverse light engaging, you know there's a chance they could pelt backwards into the main road so you keep it in mind and mitigate the risk accordingly (covering your brake etc.). If you have to slam on, you naturally get ****ed and want their input/apology if appropriate so as to let them know it's not okay. If you had have impacted, who's 'fault' would it have been? Legally I'd say the reversing maniac, but as a biker/nerd I'd say you probably should have spotted it and covered your brake.


When a lorry unnecessarily plunged into my lane I went up the curb (I'm not saying this is an acceptable route,that's a different discussion! If there'd been a sniff of any pedestrians around that wouldn't have been an option and it would have been slow/stop) I travel that road 2 or 3 times daily and there are usually lorries on it, it's straightish and wide no reason to jut into my lane unless they've cocked up. Should I accept that as an acceptable thing to happen because everyone in the western world knows to let lorries do what they want because they're bigger than you?
Be wary about them yes, when it goes wrong it's going to go wrong - but let them carry on oblivious and do it to whoever else? I'm not sure.

If you all had said 'that's 100% their fault' I wouldn't of dreamt of trying to claim or anything like that as I made my choice and what happened happened - I would have been able to talk to the company and see what the driver was avoiding or what distracted him and make sure the driver knew it was not okay to cut cars off and drive off. I just wanted confidence I could send this to them as leverage to have that chat (I'm a high mileage driver , I see and accept a lot on the road & normally think no more but felt like a debate/busy body that particular day) from the responses it looks like it's a bit more dubious than that - avoid them, let them crack on and worry about bigger things. I def agree with the latter :smt113

Spank86
03-02-15, 12:07 PM
from the responses it looks like it's a bit more dubious than that - avoid them, let them crack on and worry about bigger things. I def agree with the latter :smt113
These things are always dubious unless tested in court... and even then.

I cant find the article now but a year or so ago I read something about a biker who was killed(I think) by an oncoming lorry on a bend. He was right against the middle line and the lorry encroached over it navigating the corner. As I remember the lorry driver got off because it would be expected for the lorry to be unable to stay within the lane.

Cant remember if it was posted on this site or another one and I really hope I'm not misremembering.