Motorway Speed Cameras [Archive] - SV650.org

ophic

02-02-15, 02:44 PM

1) The new motorway speed cameras are designed to be hidden, and the Highways Agency is refusing to detail where they will be located, "for operational reasons". So it's clearly no longer got anything to do with improving road safety
Not sure it's quite that clear. Whilst I think it's perhaps a tad unfair, if you know where the speed cameras are, you just slow down as you pass them, which contributes nothing to safety or speed control and actually could arguably make things more dangerous, with braking on an otherwise clear road.

Perhaps if people didn't know where the cameras are, they'd be more likely to stick to the speed limit all the time.

maviczap

02-02-15, 02:47 PM

Policing by stealth.

1) The new motorway speed cameras are designed to be hidden, and the Highways Agency is refusing to detail where they will be located, "for operational reasons". So it's clearly no longer got anything to do with improving road safety.

Its all about making money.

Plus if the speed limit is temporarily reduce, they can whack you with a huge fine.

Re Top Gear Steve Harley story

http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/top-gear-presenters-give-pop-5044579

So it'll pay to keep to the limit

maviczap

02-02-15, 02:48 PM

Not sure it's quite that clear. Whilst I think it's perhaps a tad unfair, if you know where the speed cameras are, you just slow down as you pass them, which contributes nothing to safety or speed control and actually could arguably make things more dangerous, with braking on an otherwise clear road.

Perhaps if people didn't know where the cameras are, they'd be more likely to stick to the speed limit all the time.

The new ones are painted grey

ophic

02-02-15, 03:13 PM

The new ones are painted grey
Not following. I'm arguing that they're more effective if you don't know where they are.

maviczap

02-02-15, 04:03 PM

Not following. I'm arguing that they're more effective if you don't know where they are.

I understood what you were saying, but if they temporarily reduce the speed limit, which they do on the M25, and you don't know where they are & you can't see them, you could quite happily be doing the NSL and still trigger the camera & have no argument. Its these sections of the M25 with variable NSL where its going to be a problem, if you haven't seen the sign changing the NSL.

Why not just have avg speed cameras all the way round the M25 if it will make folk drive better.

NTECUK

02-02-15, 04:21 PM

apparently we have average speed cams going in along the kelverdon section of the A12

maviczap

02-02-15, 04:25 PM

And on the East Bergholt section, but TBH they are needed there

ophic

02-02-15, 04:32 PM

...if you haven't seen the sign changing the NSL...

But if you missed the sign, it wouldn't make a difference if the speed camera was visible or not as you wouldn't know what the limit was anyway.

ophic

02-02-15, 04:34 PM

Why not just have avg speed cameras all the way round the M25 if it will make folk drive better.
Probably cost. If you can get the same impact with just a few hidden cameras, which is better?

Teejayexc

02-02-15, 04:37 PM

But if you missed the sign, it wouldn't make a difference if the speed camera was visible or not as you wouldn't know what the limit was anyway.

Isn't that Mavs point...if you don't know otherwise you'd assume the nsl was in force, shirley:confused:

maviczap

02-02-15, 04:40 PM

But if you missed the sign, it wouldn't make a difference if the speed camera was visible or not as you wouldn't know what the limit was anyway.

It would to me, as I look out for the visible ones and slow down

On the M25 they are on the overhead gantries, so blend in & if you can remember the position of every gantry with a camera on, you're a better man than me.

I saw one blasting off flashes, as it was malfunctioning, I never knew it was there and its in a perfectly straight section, with no real need to control the speed of traffic. I don't have any issues with ones that are properly sited to slow traffic down to reduce accidents.

TBH I stick to the speed limits now & its pretty difficult to speed in one of our vans

maviczap

02-02-15, 04:42 PM

Isn't that Mavs point...if you don't know otherwise you'd assume the nsl was in force, shirley:confused:

Yes :)

ophic

02-02-15, 04:55 PM

I still don't get it. If you're over the NSL and you didn't see a speed camera and got caught, why is that wrong?

Also, if you're over the NSL and you didn't see a speed restriction sign and you slowed down to NSL because you did see a camera so you still got caught, why is that wrong?

And again if you didn't see that camera and didn't slow down at all and got caught, why is that wrong?

I'm failing to see the criticism here. Nor why it makes any difference at all what colour the camera is.

Sir Trev

03-02-15, 11:50 AM

The M25 variable limits can be a nuisance, especially when the speeds are being dropped as a situation worsens . Last week I just had time to slow from 60 to 50 when the overhead sign suddenly changed but the car in front did not and got flashed. Seems a little unfair and I hope he didn't get a NIP.

My grumble for toay. Idiots who do not clear the snow from their car light clusters. You have no idea when they're indicating or, worse, when they're braking. The latter is a nightmare when you find yourself on compacted snow on the ungritted A40!

Spank86

03-02-15, 12:23 PM

I saw one blasting off flashes, as it was malfunctioning, I never knew it was there and its in a perfectly straight section, with no real need to control the speed of traffic. I don't have any issues with ones that are properly sited to slow traffic down to reduce accidents.

On the M25 they slow traffic down in one section to ease congestion in the next section, If people ignore the slower speed they don't work so the Cameras are needed even on straight sections to keep the traffic at the right speeds.

I don't like speed cameras but they can't catch you unless you're breaking the law and part of the law is driving with due care and attention which knowing the speed of the road your driving is part of.

Heorot

03-02-15, 05:16 PM

On the M25 they slow traffic down in one section to ease congestion in the next section, If people ignore the slower speed they don't work so the Cameras are needed even on straight sections to keep the traffic at the right speeds.

I don't like speed cameras but they can't catch you unless you're breaking the law and part of the law is driving with due care and attention which knowing the speed of the road your driving is part of.

We came back from the NEC to South Norfolk yesterday; M6, A14, A11, all dual carriageways. Hardly any cameras on the M6 or A14 until Huntingdonshire and then there were average sped camera all the way. Once out of Hunts and Cambs and into Suffolk and Norfolk, there were hardly any cameras at all.

So, a straight dual carriageway in Hunts & Cambs is more dangerous than the M6? I don’t think so. Money Money Money.

Luckypants

03-02-15, 05:30 PM

There has been a bit of discussion in the Gripe of the day thread and this is starting to derail the moaners. :wink:

So I've moved those posts into here to make it a proper discussion.

Enjoy!

Luckypants

03-02-15, 05:34 PM

My take on motorway speed cameras depends on how rigidly they enforce the limit. If they follow ACPO guidelines (see http://www.acpo.police.uk/documents/uniformed/2013/201305-uoba-joining-forces-safer-roads.pdf) then you won't be getting a ticket until you are doing 79mph. This would likely be 85mph on most vehicle speedos. If you drive over an indicated 85, I don't think you have room to complain if you get nicked by a speed camera, visible or not.

If they are nicking you and giving points at 71mph, seems rather harsh.

Ch00

03-02-15, 05:34 PM

So, a straight dual carriageway in Hunts & Cambs is more dangerous than the M6? I don’t think so.

Yes they can be.

Motorways have many rules. No cyclists, peds, motorbikes under 50cc, horses, tractors. No options to turn right across the other carriage way. Plenty of signage normally from at least a mile out as well as enforceable lane restrictions such a red X.

Dual carriageways can take all the slow vehicles as mentioned above mix them with 70mph traffic and have short notice signs 1/2 mile normally, possibly no slip roads just give ways.

L3nny

03-02-15, 05:41 PM

If you think speed cameras, are there to improve your safety you are deluded, they are about money and nothing else.

These new cameras simply make it easier for them to raise more money.

Spank86

03-02-15, 06:03 PM

We came back from the NEC to South Norfolk yesterday; M6, A14, A11, all dual carriageways. Hardly any cameras on the M6 or A14 until Huntingdonshire and then there were average sped camera all the way. Once out of Hunts and Cambs and into Suffolk and Norfolk, there were hardly any cameras at all.

So, a straight dual carriageway in Hunts & Cambs is more dangerous than the M6? I don’t think so. Money Money Money.
We were discussing the M25.

As for the A11 I wouldn't really know Everytime I've been near it I've avoided it due to accidents.

If you think speed cameras, are there to improve your safety you are deluded.
Depends which ones and where you live. The guidelines for them are different in different places but Primarily they are there to enforce the law.

I have the same attitude to them as I do to overdraft fees, if you don't like it don't trigger them,

If they were really about revenue raising only I'd be ecstatic because it ought to lead the government to remove the points part of the punishment and I could treat it as a tax on enjoyment.

wyrdness

03-02-15, 08:03 PM

On the M25 they are on the overhead gantries, so blend in & if you can remember the position of every gantry with a camera on, you're a better man than me.

Not the new ones. They're on the side of the gantry.

There's a picture in the article below, but there's quite a few of them on the M25 now, not just the ones mentioned in the story.

http://www.sevenoakschronicle.co.uk/Secret-M25-speed-cameras-catch-hundreds-drivers/story-25862666-detail/story.html

L3nny

03-02-15, 08:26 PM

If they were really about revenue raising only I'd be ecstatic because it ought to lead the government to remove the points part of the punishment and I could treat it as a tax on enjoyment.

Points increase insurance premiums meaning more insurance premium tax.

Coincidence???

Or am I just wearing a tin hat now?

Luckypants

03-02-15, 08:31 PM

There's a picture in the article below, but there's quite a few of them on the M25 now, not just the ones mentioned in the story.

http://www.sevenoakschronicle.co.uk/Secret-M25-speed-cameras-catch-hundreds-drivers/story-25862666-detail/story.html

But none of these scare stories state at what speed the cameras were triggered. We don't know if got a ticket for 71 or 81 or 101. So 700 odd folks got tickets in two months, but how many thousands didn't. You're basically getting worked up on rumour, because we don't know what speed triggers these cameras.

Sent from my HTC One

Spank86

03-02-15, 08:59 PM

Points increase insurance premiums meaning more insurance premium tax.

Coincidence???

Or am I just wearing a tin hat now?

It's at least a kitkat wrapper on your head.

I think you'd be giving the government too much credit for ability there.

keith_d

03-02-15, 11:23 PM

As someone has already pointed out, if the main goal was road safety they should use clearly visible average speed cameras. They're a proven technology, and judging by their effect in road works they do work.

The locations of the new cameras will quickly become common knowledge among the people using the affected roads regularly, so they can still drive as badly as before. So it's only people new to the area who are likely to be caught out, either by the camera or the sudden braking of one of the locals.

Personally, I think this looks like a cynical revenue raising opportunity, rather than anything vaguely connected with road safety.

Just my thoughts,

Keith.

maviczap

04-02-15, 09:31 AM

But none of these scare stories state at what speed the cameras were triggered. We don't know if got a ticket for 71 or 81 or 101. Sent from my HTC One

According to Clarkson & co, Steve Harley was done for doing 70mph in a 40mph limit, after a temp 40mph limit was put up on the signs. Whether he saw the signs, only SH knows, but he was done for £1000? I always take Top Gear stories with a pinch of salt. But how soon do the cameras become active after the limit is lowered? Do they become active after the first vehicles pass the new limit sign, or instantly the limit is changed?

As someone has already pointed out, if the main goal was road safety they should use clearly visible average speed cameras. They're a proven technology, and judging by their effect in road works they do work.

The locations of the new cameras will quickly become common knowledge among the people using the affected roads regularly, so they can still drive as badly as before. So it's only people new to the area who are likely to be caught out, either by the camera or the sudden braking of one of the locals.
Keith.

Yes.

Wyrdness, that's what I meant when I said they were on the overhead gantries, they are bloody impossible to see. ;)

Heorot

04-02-15, 11:40 AM

Spank, no need to avoid the A11 any more. It is completely dualled now.

L3nny

04-02-15, 12:34 PM

so they can still drive as badly as before.

You can still drive badly and extremely dangerously while remaining under the speed limit, you can also drive impeccably and extremely safely while breaking the speed limit.

Speed cameras only measure speed, nothing to do with how well you are driving. Hence why it's got nothing to do with safety.

ophic

04-02-15, 12:47 PM

As someone has already pointed out, if the main goal was road safety they should use clearly visible average speed cameras. They're a proven technology, and judging by their effect in road works they do work.
Perhaps they're testing whether advertised but hidden cameras have the same effect but at less cost. In theory - if you know there's a camera somewhere but you don't know where, you wouldn't break the speed limit.

NTECUK

04-02-15, 12:57 PM

There effectivenes in reducing collisions seams today in need of more research.
People jumping on the brakes when they pass every gantry over the M25 is plain worrisome.
And allot of the time it's a jerck reaction even though they are travelling on the posted limit.

Spank86

04-02-15, 12:57 PM

As someone has already pointed out, if the main goal was road safety they should use clearly visible average speed cameras. They're a proven technology, and judging by their effect in road works they do work.

The locations of the new cameras will quickly become common knowledge among the people using the affected roads regularly, so they can still drive as badly as before.
And you don't find those two statements in any way contradictory?

you can also drive impeccably and extremely safely while breaking the speed limit.

I think you just redefined "impeccable", the highest standards would usually include obeying all the rules of the road, like the one on speed.

Bluepete

04-02-15, 06:48 PM

Signs of a U turn?

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/m60-speed-cameras-smart-motorway-8578508

Pete ;)

wyrdness

05-02-15, 08:18 AM

But none of these scare stories state at what speed the cameras were triggered. We don't know if got a ticket for 71 or 81 or 101. So 700 odd folks got tickets in two months, but how many thousands didn't. You're basically getting worked up on rumour, because we don't know what speed triggers these cameras.

Sent from my HTC One

I'm not sure what speed they go off at, but I've seen them flash other cars plenty of times when driving around the M25. It's certainly not a rumour as they've recently installed a lot of these cameras, as they're definitely working.

wyrdness

05-02-15, 08:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by keith_d http://forums.sv650.org/images/ca_morpheus_gray/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?p=2997930#post2997930)
As someone has already pointed out, if the main goal was road safety they should use clearly visible average speed cameras. They're a proven technology, and judging by their effect in road works they do work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keith_d http://forums.sv650.org/images/ca_morpheus_gray/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?p=2997930#post2997930)
The locations of the new cameras will quickly become common knowledge among the people using the affected roads regularly, so they can still drive as badly as before.

And you don't find those two statements in any way contradictory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by L3nny http://forums.sv650.org/images/ca_morpheus_gray/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?p=2997998#post2997998)
you can also drive impeccably and extremely safely while breaking the speed limit.

I think you just redefined "impeccable", the highest standards would usually include obeying all the rules of the road, like the one on speed.

No, Keith's statements aren't contradictory. With normal speed cameras, people can drive badly and then slam their brakes on when they see a camera. With average speed cameras, they measure speed over a long distance, and this usually causes drivers to stick rigidly to the limit over that distance. They make a big difference to the way that people drive.

I don't think that L3nny has redefined 'impeccably' either. It's entirely possible to drive safely and quickly, whilst breaking an arbitrary speed limit. Sometimes they might change the speed limit on a road, e.g. from a 70 to a 50 (as has happened on sections of the A1 recently). This doesn't mean that someone who still drives at 70mph is driving any worse than they did before.

Spank86

05-02-15, 10:57 AM

No, Keith's statements aren't contradictory. With normal speed cameras, people can drive badly and then slam their brakes on when they see a camera. With average speed cameras, they measure speed over a long distance, and this usually causes drivers to stick rigidly to the limit over that distance. They make a big difference to the way that people drive.
ah, I see. I missed the significance of 'average'.

although i'm not sure how safe average speed cameras are since they usually have me looking at my speedo far more often than I otherwise would and that's all time my eyes are off the road.

Luckypants

05-02-15, 11:50 AM

I'm not sure what speed they go off at, but I've seen them flash other cars plenty of times when driving around the M25. It's certainly not a rumour as they've recently installed a lot of these cameras, as they're definitely working.

Cannot argue with any of that, but it does back up my point of until we know what speed these cameras are enforcing, we don't know if it is reasonable or a money making scam.

With average speed cameras, they measure speed over a long distance, and this usually causes drivers to stick rigidly to the limit over that distance. They make a big difference to the way that people drive.Agreed, properly deployed these definitely make a difference. With a lot of modern cars having cruise control, sticking to the 50 (or whatever) limit average speed cameras are enforcing is easy.

NTECUK

05-02-15, 12:32 PM

With a lot of modern cars having cruise control, sticking to the 50 (or whatever) limit average speed cameras are enforcing is easy.
My car has a limit button .You can stamp the pedal and override it but its very handy in the roadworks 50 mph

maviczap

05-02-15, 12:39 PM

My car has a limit button .You can stamp the pedal and override it but its very handy in the roadworks 50 mph

Does it look like this :D

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/saub_koba_barc_2012-32.jpg

Sir Trev

05-02-15, 01:58 PM

My car has a limit button .You can stamp the pedal and override it but its very handy in the roadworks 50 mph

My car has one too, but it's just as easy to switch the cruise control on at 50 and just steer. Also gets over the issue Spank rightly raises about constantly watching your speedo.

I know some people dislike CC but I find it more relaxing to activate it and go at my own speed in the (usually empty) lane 1 of the M25 than constantly speeding up/down as people tailgate each other in lanes three and four.

L3nny

05-02-15, 03:50 PM

My car has a speed limiter as well....................Although it's fixed at 155mph

Back on topic, a lot of the average speed cameras are placed near roadworks to protect the workforce. Problem is it normally starts and ends 4 miles either side of where the workforce actually are, and it's even "protecting" them when they've gone home.

Corny Gizmo

05-02-15, 04:05 PM

L3nny

05-02-15, 04:32 PM

I dont personally see how hitting a poor workie at 50mph is gonna make a difference than if I hit him at 70mph

I agree with the average speed cameras, they work but on a bike you are constantly checking speed and not looking where you are going.

Wookie's are tough so they'd probably be fine

http://scelnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/10.4.2012-wookie.jpg

ophic

05-02-15, 04:33 PM

I dont personally see how hitting a poor workie at 50mph is gonna make a difference than if I hit him at 70mph
Stopping distance. At 50 you may well not hit him at all.
(and if he looks like L3nny suggests, you'd be sorry if you did)

NTECUK

05-02-15, 04:59 PM

It's a handy function.most of the Nissan's have this above the base model I think.

Grant66

05-02-15, 05:16 PM

BanannaMan

06-02-15, 12:01 AM

It could always be worse.

http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s507/thebanannaman/115h640x360_zps6c0879c1.jpg

Yes that's a real sign.

Bibio

06-02-15, 01:45 AM

Wookie's are tough so they'd probably be fine

http://scelnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/10.4.2012-wookie.jpg

stop posting pics of andysmith :D

Richie

06-02-15, 04:47 AM

if they put the speed limit up to 100mph on A road and 130-140 on motorways then we'll all be happy I guess....

maviczap

06-02-15, 06:57 AM

It could always be worse.

http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s507/thebanannaman/115h640x360_zps6c0879c1.jpg

Yes that's a real sign.

Surely Wal Mart stock stinger ground to air missiles to deal with these pestky aeroplanes, they stock nearly every available legal weapon :-D

keith_d

06-02-15, 08:58 AM

I dont personally see how hitting a poor workie at 50mph is gonna make a difference than if I hit him at 70mph

50mph is chosen because the concrete blocks used to separate off the work zone are designed to stop a car at that speed. Even for heavier vehicles a glancing blow from a ton of concrete is likely to deflect the moving vehicle away from the vulnerable workforce.

Whether there's actually anyone working behind the barrier is mostly down to money. It's cheaper to block off 30 miles of the M25 and work at leisure than to institute multiple smaller closures.

NTECUK

06-02-15, 11:19 AM

Number plate flip up gizmos still available???
I'm sure it's going to help with washing the bike ;)

Corny Gizmo

06-02-15, 11:24 AM

ok I understand why its 50mph now, but still annoys me when there isnt a soul there, all it needs is an electronic sign that changes when the workforce goes home

BanannaMan

06-02-15, 12:51 PM

Surely Wal Mart stock stinger ground to air missiles to deal with these pestky aeroplanes, they stock nearly every available legal weapon :-D

Plenty of M-16 style weapons but no missiles. (yet)

While the sign is real it's a joke among locals.
Some Police planes and helicoptors do have speed cameras on board but are rarely used as its simply not cost effective to use an aircraft to catch speeders.

Your only chance of being caught by one is if they are already in the air on some other mission and they happen to spy you doing the ton or better on the motorway.

Basically they are put up on the state of Virginia 's borders as propaganda for unknowing out of state motorists entering the state.