Pirelli SC's and tyre warmers

[petro53]

Hi Y'all. I apologize if this has been addressed before but I could not find a reference for it. I recently bought a SV race bike that came with multiple sets of Pirelli SC's. I am a novice track rider (only 5 track days so far) and was told by someone that since if I do not use warmers I will not be able to generate enough heat in the tyre. My other track bike (hypermotard 1100s) has Michelin Pilot Power 3's and I do not use warmers with no issues. Thoughts??

[Stuart42]

Hi

Depends what track you are at and weather.

Somewhere like Brands being short takes a few laps to warm, but should get there eventually.

Mate was racing there last weekend and tyres weren't great, track temp was only 11 degrees mind you.

I race on roads and some don't use warmers on circuits like Tandragee which is 5 miles long.

But don't see why tyres not warming up after a few laps of most circuits.

Just take your time to give them a chance to warm.

I did race for years without warmers so is possible.

Hope this helps

Cheers
Stuart

[Red Herring]

The Pirelli's are road tyres so they shouldn't have to much of a problem being ridden cold initially, but just remember you need to heat the whole tyre up for it to work properly, not just the "surface". As you gain experience you will develop a "feel" for it but it's very easy to go out and ride gently for a couple of laps and then think the tyres are warm and go for it, and then wonder why you either wreck the tyre or the whole bike when it lets go....

You need to ride hard enough to work the structure of the tyre, yet not so hard that you tear the surface off it. If you're riding a dedicated track bike so have to trailer/van to and fro then it's well worth investing in a set of warmers, if you think about it they are worth two or three laps of every session..... and your tyres will be happier for it as they effectively only have to go through one heat cycle.

[petro53]

Thank you for the responses. I was led to believe the SC's were "track only" (which confused me as they are not a slick) so thanks for clearing that up. I would like to buy some warmers but I'm heading back to the U.S. in October and the U.K. versions won't work there. I think I'll try to rent them as I hate wasting track time in the later sessions.


Thanks again!


Mike

[Corny Gizmo]

SCs are more racing orientated, but they come as standard on road bikes such as the pannigale 1298 and the new R1 etc

[wideguy]

RoadRacing World and Motorcycle Technology did a test a few years back and discovered that (race compound) tires at the end of a sighting lap/warm up lap were almost as warm as tires that just came out of tire warmers.
I know track days don't have a warm up lap, but smart riders take one anyway as it doesn't just warm up the tires, it warms up your body and brain too, which is probably more important than having warm tires.
Something else they learned- park your bike in the sun if there is any.

[Red Herring]

This is a picture of a Dunlop D211 that has been ridden on at the wrong temperature. These are road tyres that are simply moulded without tread so they are the same compound/construction. All that has happened is where I have been getting on the throttle coming off the bends the surface has started to tear away. Fortunately I felt it happening and stopped before it was completely wrecked. Treaded tyres are slightly less susceptible to this as the tread allows the rubber to move and heat up, but hopefully you get the idea.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg104/Broomewood/DSC00323.jpg

[wideguy]

This is a picture of a Dunlop D211 that has been ridden on at the wrong temperature. These are road tyres that are simply moulded without tread so they are the same compound/construction. All that has happened is where I have been getting on the throttle coming off the bends the surface has started to tear away. Fortunately I felt it happening and stopped before it was completely wrecked. Treaded tyres are slightly less susceptible to this as the tread allows the rubber to move and heat up, but hopefully you get the idea.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg104/Broomewood/DSC00323.jpg
It's called "cold shearing".
How much did you lower the tire pressure to get it to stop? Too low and the tire will overheat, which makes them lose grip and wear out quickly too.
Tire vendors at the track will usually offer good starting points for setting tire pressures, but you still need to keep an eye on them, conditions do change through the day.

[speedyandypandy]

The most important thing is to check you pressure right after coming into the pit/depot and measure your "hot" pressure towards the spec sheet of the tires you have. A good indicator of wether your pressure is somewhere around optimal is the way your tyres look after a outing. If they look anything like the ones in this article you need to do something https://www.2wheeltuesday.com/2009/06/diy-how-to-read-the-tire-wear-tire-tear-on-your-motorcycle/

But checking them afterwards is like playing catch-up...

Having tyre warmers lets you get the pressure right(ish) before you get out, saves you 1 outing. And you check before you get out on track every single time, because when the ampient temperature goes up the tyre pressure rises, so you need to bleed of some pressure, or during the famous UK summers you might want to add more pressure :smt082

Buy a good pressure reader, not some 4.99 Sh*t from halfords

The faster than fast boys will most likely have a tyre core temperature reader(pyrometer with probe) but thats for pro's and not us mortals

[petro53]

Thanks for the insights! I appreciate the help.

[JonSV]

Interesting topic this. I dropped my pressures a few psi for my last trackday to 30 front and 32 rear when cold and both tyres ended looking like this. Not too bad I guess, but I maybe need to drop pressure a little further? They were much worse on the previous trackday despite riding slower.

I think tyres warmers should be banned from trackdays unless there are power sockets available - the continuous generater noise drives me mad. The riders with slicks and warmers and in the novice group make me laugh though!

[speedyandypandy]

Interesting topic this. I dropped my pressures a few psi for my last trackday to 30 front and 32 rear when cold and both tyres ended looking like this. Not too bad I guess, but I maybe need to drop pressure a little further? They were much worse on the previous trackday despite riding slower.

I think tyres warmers should be banned from trackdays unless there are power sockets available - the continuous generater noise drives me mad. The riders with slicks and warmers and in the novice group make me laugh though!

Yes, your hot pressures for the front should be around what you just wrote, but always check with the spec sheet, but an educated guess would be around 30-31 front and 29-30 rear, always lower rear pressure.
Some rear tyres (D212) has a 'hard' rubber carcass, and should be around 20psi hot, so checking your spec sheet is important.

Tyre warmers for novices are "head voodoo" helps confidence, but more than likely hot tyre temp is lower after a outing than going out.

For info, I dabble in race weekends and trackdays, I change my tyres myself, and balance them myself. And bring along laminated spec sheets for all my different tyres.

[petro53]

So I'm a bit confused. It looks like the SP is the road version and SC are track. The reason I believe this is that the SC tyres are only sold by track vendors in the US. It also looks like the SC's are harder to get compared to the SP's here in the UK. Are the SP's more forgiving? Meaning that I should get the same steering and roll feel? In other words since I am a novice and don't want to tear up tyres from the lack of knowledge about them, would it be moire cost effective to run the SP's for a while till I get faster. Or am I just over thinking this.

[speedyandypandy]

No you're on the ball, keep going...
I'm out-of-date on the Pirellis(3 last seasons on Dunlop/Michelin beacuse of price), but I'm sure if you're not knee scraping and sideways out of corners the DIABLO ROSSO CORSA will be enough to take you up to most advanced/fast groups.

[Stu]

So I'm a bit confused. It looks like the SP is the road version and SC are track. The reason I believe this is that the SC tyres are only sold by track vendors in the US. It also looks like the SC's are harder to get compared to the SP's here in the UK. Are the SP's more forgiving? Meaning that I should get the same steering and roll feel? In other words since I am a novice and don't want to tear up tyres from the lack of knowledge about them, would it be moire cost effective to run the SP's for a while till I get faster. Or am I just over thinking this.
Yes you're right, SP are for road. (The poster above that stated R1's & 1298's sic came on SC was confused.)
If you're not in the fast group I would consider selling the SC's & buying something more suitable, like any sports road tyre. (M7RR, Sportssmart, Rosso Corsa, S20 etc.)

[Red Herring]

If you're not in the fast group I would consider selling the SC's & buying something more suitable, like any sports road tyre. (M7RR, Sportssmart, Rosso Corsa, S20 etc.)

I think that would rather depend on the state of the SC's. If they came with the bike are they scrubs (already been used)? If so you won't get enough for them to cover buying alternative new rubber so just ride on them and worry about what to buy when you have to, given by then you will have a whole lot more experience upon which to base your decision.

[wideguy]

So I'm a bit confused. It looks like the SP is the road version and SC are track. The reason I believe this is that the SC tyres are only sold by track vendors in the US. It also looks like the SC's are harder to get compared to the SP's here in the UK. Are the SP's more forgiving? Meaning that I should get the same steering and roll feel? In other words since I am a novice and don't want to tear up tyres from the lack of knowledge about them, would it be moire cost effective to run the SP's for a while till I get faster. Or am I just over thinking this.
If you aren't using them hard enough, race compound tires won't heat up enough to grip well, so it's possible for a novice track rider to have less available grip from race tires than from street sport tires. Modern street sport tires, especially dual or triple compounds, will allow you to drag your pegs on the track in pretty fast turns. If you aren't doing that, you don't need race compound tires.
You can lower the tire pressures on your race tires to make them heat up at a slower pace, but they might start to feel squirmy under braking and acceleration at the low pressures. If you do run them, watch for signs of cold shearing or overheating, try to be smooth on the throttle and smooth on turn ins and transitions and don't just snatch the brakes full on. That's good advice anyway.

[petro53]

You just hit the crux of it for me. I'm sure at my current pace the tyres would actually cool, off the warmers. So again the SP's seem more appropriate for now. So I have one pair of Scrubs (not mounted) and a new pair that is currently on the bike. I think I should sell/trade the new pair for a set of SP's. Then I'll keep the scrubs for when I get faster. Again, Thanks for the imput.

[nutzboutbikes]

No you're on the ball, keep going...
I'm out-of-date on the Pirellis(3 last seasons on Dunlop/Michelin beacuse of price), but I'm sure if you're not knee scraping and sideways out of corners the DIABLO ROSSO CORSA will be enough to take you up to most advanced/fast groups.



+1
The Rosso Corsa's are a great tyre, I use them on trackdays in the intermediate group.