Need help with my track bike

[Degener8]

Can anyone help..

Ive looked as best I can round old threads on so many forums and I cant find anything similar, any help will be greatly appreciated!

this has me totally stumped. My ZXR400 will not turn over.

Its a ZXR 400 L4 Track bike, its keyless and runs total loss.

It has a Dynatech ignition advance unit with rev limit and ignition advance adjustments,
Electric loom has been stripped down so no key required but the starter motor is still present so no having to bump start.

Things ive done -

Fully charged battery ( used another brand new fully charged battery as well)
Replaced starter relay (solenoid)
Replaced Starter Motor
Completely cleaned all contacts.
Fuse all okay

When I turn on the power I get dash lights, I press the start and you hear the solenoid thud but nothing else, dash lights dim at the same time but thats it.

I havent checked the battery out put because I dont have the equipment. But I did boost it off of another 12v and it did the same thing..

Someone please help :( im new to this but I really want to crack this without shelling out for a mechanic.

Everything I replaced was installed exactly the same as it came out and as per the workshop manual pdf.

This bike runs total loss, so no alternator.

What are the odds that 2 starter motors are shagged?

I really hope its something small but something ive missed.

Cheers in advance.

[Mr Speirs]

Can you bump start it?

[Degener8]

Not that I managed last night.. Although ive got a feeling im doimg it wrong as never bumped a bike before, but the back wheel just locked up for a second.

[NTECUK]

The zx6r F 2 /3 have a wire that droops the voltage range to the ignition module.
Have you by passed this or damaged it.
No spark if it's not right

[Degener8]

I genuinely dont know, I bought it of a friend who basically said all it needed was a new starter motor. He doesn't know too much about the history if the modifications. I know this seems like it could be a black hole of problems, just really cant afford a mechanic right now. Im not completely novice at this stuff ive just never done bike electics before this is

what my friend said about it -

Hi mate. The bike was running fine. I crashed it and was sent to idp in Silverstone to be fixed. There was no running problem then. I was getting it ready to use again one day. Started it a couple of times. Then it stopped once and wouldn't start again. It had a clicking sound coming from it. My uncle and family friend both motorbikers said it was the starter motor.

So I just went from that really.

[NTECUK]

OK. The click can be the lift pump.
It's got a set of points.
On mine if you leave it for a fortnight it takes a age of it to prime.
So if you are getting petrol to the carb it's working.
So let's go for a step back and look at why you don't get it to crank.
One. You have a good battery.
Your need a volt meter.
Check out the volts across the battery when you crank it.
It going to drop form 12, 6 to maybe 10 normally

With the tester on the battery -ve check out the volts to the starter. If its getting 10 volts it should turn.
Check out the starter body too.
When you crank the meter readings should be below 0.5 volts. From battery -Ve to the body of the starter.
If its higher you have a bad earth

[Degener8]

Awesome thank you, il try as soon as im home :)

[Degener8]

Awesome thank you, il try as soon as im home :)

OK. The click can be the lift pump.
It's got a set of points.
On mine if you leave it for a fortnight it takes a age of it to prime.
So if you are getting petrol to the carb it's working.
So let's go for a step back and look at why you don't get it to crank.
One. You have a good battery.
Your need a volt meter.
Check out the volts across the battery when you crank it.
It going to drop form 12, 6 to maybe 10 normally

With the tester on the battery -ve check out the volts to the starter. If its getting 10 volts it should turn.
Check out the starter body too.
When you crank the meter readings should be below 0.5 volts. From battery -Ve to the body of the starter.
If its higher you have a bad earth

Okay heres the test results..

Battery - 12v
Across the solenoid -12v
From solenoid to starter motor point 181 of a volt (.181v) cranked

-Ve to starter motor cranked 2.0v
-Ve to starter body 0.2v

+ve to starter 12v


Ive never known a motor work off of .181 of a volt.. Am I wrong? I think its the cable from solenoid to motor is dead? Any ideas?

[NTECUK]

From the battery to the solenoid 12V. Press the start button then (hopefully click 12 Volts on the other big terminal

[Degener8]

I think I found the culprit! I took the starter motor out of the bike and connected it back to the battery, put it on the bike frame for a sec, my mrs pressed the starter button.. And the motor turned! Which is awesome because the motor isnt fudged.. But what does that mean? Bad earth?

From the battery to the solenoid 12V. Press the start button then (hopefully click 12 Volts on the other big terminal

[NTECUK]

If it turns when not engaged with engine it not pulling much current.
So any resistance in the circuit has less of an effect.
That's were the meter good. It shows you were the volts drop.
So if needs to be checked in the engine.
The biggest volt drop is across the starter (11 Volts probly as your loose some across the solenoid and all the connections ).
So check out the volts drop. Volts on your meter. Probly range will be 20volts. Put the -ve or common on the meter probe on the -ve battery terminal.Then the pos probe to the frame. Then keep the -ve battery terminal connected. Them +ve probe to the engine.
Any more than 0.65 volts is bad.
If that's OK with the meter -ve still on the -ve on battery -ve terminal and the positive probe on the input of the starter. The meter reading should be 10 volts min when you crank it.

[Degener8]

No problem il do.that as soon as im home, what would be the solution if its reading more than 0.65?

[NTECUK]

Clean up the contacts or if it's a broken wire replace it unless you can get a replacement terminal.
If it a drop across the starter relay /solenoid, it's a new one.
I guess you have put the bike in gear and it will turn over.

[Degener8]

Okay, with the alternator cover off and the gear spur removed between the starter motor and the one way clutch cog, the starter motor spins, with the multimeter on the connection it reads 11v.. When the spur is connected the 3 move about 1 - mill then stop, when I release the button it moves backwards the same? I really really really appreciate you being so patient with me im trying to get this sorted between 12 hour weekend shifts at work lol.

[Degener8]

Thanks to everyone that helped, but the engine is siezed good and proper so it's up to the mechanic now.
Cheers for your help with everything!

John

[jambo]

Yes the missing question here was does it turn by hand.

Before all hope is lost, have you removed the plugs and tried turning it over? You occasionally find a leaky carb has flooded a cylinder and hydraulic locked the engine (petrol does not compress). I've had this happen in the past, it's annoying but worth checking before you condemn the motor. Don't have your head anywhere near the spark plug hole when you turn the motor over after removing the plugs by the way, it may come out quite fast...

If this is the case, drop the oil out as it may have been contaminated with fuel, and also check the carb floats & needles, as well as any fuel taps.

Fingers crossed

Jambo

[NTECUK]

Post two Mr Spiers first past the post on that one....
What I missed was the bit about it didn't turn.
Ops

[Degener8]

Yes the missing question here was does it turn by hand.

Before all hope is lost, have you removed the plugs and tried turning it over? You occasionally find a leaky carb has flooded a cylinder and hydraulic locked the engine (petrol does not compress). I've had this happen in the past, it's annoying but worth checking before you condemn the motor. Don't have your head anywhere near the spark plug hole when you turn the motor over after removing the plugs by the way, it may come out quite fast...

If this is the case, drop the oil out as it may have been contaminated with fuel, and also check the carb floats & needles, as well as any fuel taps.

Fingers crossed

Jambo

Post two Mr Spiers first past the post on that one....
What I missed was the bit about it didn't turn.
Ops

Yeah i got my buddy round to help me, it's stuck for sure . Ive since learned it's spent a year standing under a car port. Its booked in to my.mechanic now on Monday it's well past my abilities. Originally it was deemed a starter motor issue and it's just escalated lol. As soon as I know what the diagnosis is il update :) doesn't matter how broken it is though il still mend it lol

[Degener8]

The engine is genuinely siezed.
It's dropped 2 exhaust valves on cylinder 4
But there is all bits in engine so is going to want a full strip.
The bikes coming back so I can drop the engine out myself and get it ready and keep Cost low but a second hand engine is £350 but is more hassle to collect and prep etc plus we know this engine more than sone random second hand job which could die in a week.. So

[Degener8]

Here's the culprits

http://www.675.cc/675/attachments/dsc_0027-01-jpeg.16998/

[Craig380]

Oof, there's some nice little chips of piston there round the valve edges and seats :(

How come the valves dropped? Springs broken?

[NTECUK]

Ouch.
Don't remember everything.
But I thought you bought the bike from a mate who said it was running ?
All you needed was a starter motor???
Time to fit a zx6 engine perhaps ;)
(They will fit :) )

[Degener8]

Ouch.
Don't remember everything.
But I thought you bought the bike from a mate who said it was running ?
All you needed was a starter motor???
Time to fit a zx6 engine perhaps ;)
(They will fit :) )

Aye that was the original reason I was told it didn't start. But turns out it was this.
We are going for a complete engine rebuild due to the amount of work.and extras this bike has had. My mechanic says it has all the right bits to easily be a front runner in respective championship so we are going for a restoration as it will cost the same as a used engine that we know nothing about.

This bike was a race bike. But has been used as a rusty banger track bike for a while.. And probably missed services and the upkeep it needed.

We are going to upgrade the brakes to GSXR600 calipers.
Re dyno the engine once repaired.

Exciting stuff :)

[NTECUK]

What front forks has it got.
Pics please I'm a big zxr fan.
I sooo badly want a zxr 7 :)

[Degener8]

They are the standard forks but with Matris fork cartridge internals. Currently bidding on Zx6r complete front end though :) fingers crossed