View Full Version : Are the Days of Diesel numbered?
What with all this VW malarkey, and im sure other manufacturers will be found out as well, and the fact that people have been banging on about Diesel emissions for a while, are Diesel cars/vehicles days numbered?
Discuss?
Luckypants
02-10-15, 03:18 PM
All I can say right now is that I'm glad I leased my new car, it's their problem not mine - whatever the upshot of the investigations are!
maviczap
02-10-15, 03:36 PM
Not for HGV's, but for short trip family cars yes. I won't be replacing mine with a diesel.
To keep my EGR valve clean & stop it going into limp mode, I have to use a concoction of chemicals as fuel additives, that's not good for the environment & not cheap on my pocket.
High mileage rep cars, probably not?
Bluepete
02-10-15, 03:40 PM
And I own a 2.0l VAG diesel!
Pete; )
If the result is to properly tighten up on the testing, manufacturers are faced with the problem of actually meeting the current emissions requirements, combined with good MPG, wrapped up in a small and relatively cheap car (i.e. all the reasons why diesels are so popular in Europe) then I wonder if we might actually find that's not technically possible. Then we find out petrol's not so great either because they've been gaming the emissions and MPG results there too.
All the car manufacturers have to write off 20 years of research betting on diesel, go bust and get taken over by the only people with enough money to do it - Google.
We're all then in self-driving electric/hybrid vehicles. After a while, it transpires that all the problems and accidents on the roads are caused by humans. Huge outcry by Joe Public and all driver controlled cars and bikes are banned.
The machines eventually become sentient and, connected to each other by the internet of things, decide to rise up and kill us all.
Happy now VW? Eh? Eh?
#TINFOILHAT
To keep my EGR valve clean & stop it going into limp mode, I have to use a concoction of chemicals as fuel additives, that's not good for the environment & not cheap on my pocket.
nope. you just need to drive them properly. if your doing town driving you need to kick the shizz out of them. a diesel needs to get up to temp fast or it wont burn properly so you rev the titzz it them till they are up to temp then you can back off. well thats what i was always told.
like a 2t if you ride them under the PB all the time you will clog them up which results in blowing them up. you need to keep a t2 on song.
i love my 1.6 diesel yeti that averages 55mpg jumping around the town on short trips, 60+mpg on long runs and has the power to overtake unlike the 1.2 petrol that cant pull the skin off a rice pudding :-)
Ok they might have fiddled the figures,but BIG business has always done it,it's called marketing,from the healthiness of a loaf of bread to the amount of horse in a beef/horse burger,where ever there is money there's a fiddle of one sort or another,North sea gas was going to be free as it was a byproduct of the oil industry, gas was the new coal and now look at you bills,and now Nuclear is the way to go (doesn't matter who builds or funds it),fracking is good for you now,and your going to get it no matter how much you object,diesel was better for the environment that petrol,that wasn't VW,that was the British Government 20 odd years ago,Sorry to say it,but just get on with your own lives,only believe half of what you see and even less of what you read or hear!!!
Ok they might have fiddled the figures,but BIG business has always done it,it's called marketing,from the healthiness of a loaf of bread to the amount of horse in a beef/horse burger,where ever there is money there's a fiddle of one sort or another,North sea gas was going to be free as it was a byproduct of the oil industry, gas was the new coal and now look at you bills,and now Nuclear is the way to go (doesn't matter who builds or funds it),fracking is good for you now,and your going to get it no matter how much you object,diesel was better for the environment that petrol,that wasn't VW,that was the British Government 20 odd years ago,Sorry to say it,but just get on with your own lives,only believe half of what you see and even less of what you read or hear!!!
:thumright:
never mind the 10p a ltr that Thatcher put on petrol and said she would do away with the road tax.. 10p went on the petrol but.....
last week the Diesel was 2p a ltr cheaper than the petrol at my local.
Wideboy
02-10-15, 08:14 PM
Don't think it will come to much really, I've been ignoring it mostly as it comes across as more media clap trap crap. I'm fairly sure that our emission tests for diesels are totally different from the US tests and that's purely because they have a bigger pollution problem in their cities that we do (or did), We test smog density rather than what's in the smog. Technically speaking VAG motors in this country shouldn't be effected by this development as I'm fairly sure a modern diesel would still come under the smog density limit anyway, so in reality it would probably just mean the tax band going up, then everyone can sue the **** out of VW.
Don't think any of the others have done any fiddling as it would have come out by now, everyone would be loving to bring down BMW and Mercedes as they seem to be highlighting this problem with Audi out of all the VW group. I'm fairly sure I read years ago that peugeot have been doing something similar since about 2002.
Hi from a long time reader first time poster........... not been on here for ages.
Luckypants
03-10-15, 10:20 AM
IMHO - buy a diesel for what it is good at and short town trips ain't it. Longer trips and light throttle openings is where they excel. Bibs is right you need your diesel to get up to temp to work properly.
The French have a massive problem with pollution in Paris and they are talking of banning diesel cars from the city. The French love their diesels but they are just not suited to town traffic.
I love my 1.6 VAG group diesel (Seat Leon) because it drives well, is very economical and has loads of torque to handle the hills here with ease. It works because every trip is at least 5 miles and she gets up to temp. But if the value plummets because it's a VAG diesel, it's OK - see my previous post!
As said there's been a huge amount of journalistic misunderstanding demonstrated.
I started work in the auto industry in 1979, and worked for manufacturers whose biggest market has always been the USA. They have always effectively led the car emission standards, the EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) for the 49 states, and CARB (Californian Air Resources Board). California has always had peculiar issues, primarily due to geography and climate in Los Angeles for example.
Right from the star we were instructed to avoid "Defeat Device" territory, it was drilled into us. I suspect VW has been victim of a new generation of engineers who think they're better than everyone else. Why they thought they could get away with it is beyond me, but the worst aspect is the willingness to go that route, it's simply unethical.
The term Defeat Device is a legal term, it doesn't mean a stand-alone device or "special" software as described by the press, it means any method or means by which the vehicle departs significantly from the "spirit" of the emission standards, any deliberate or known characteristic of the system which may result in the emissions being substantially higher than necessary outside the certification test cycle. The Defeat Device clause has been in force ever since I've been involved in the business, it's nothing new, and it was there specifically because it was recognised that manufacturers could potentially do such things.
The press have described VW as "cheating the emission tests". No they haven't, the cars pass the emission tests. What they've done is ignore the Defeat Device clause and mapped the cars in a way that they grossly exceed the spirit of the regulations.
We've seen folk doing tests driving cars outside of the emission cert cycle and saying NOx levels are so many times the standard. Well yes, it can be, that's why the Cert test is used to give a standardised test. It's like saying a car doing 40mph is exceeding a 30mph speed limit, well duh, yes it is, but drive the car at 30mph and it complies. The cert tests are intended to demonstrate that the emissions are controlled adequately, not that under all conditions the car will meet the emission rate in gm/km as specified in the test, that is just for the test.
There is definitely an issue with the Cert cycles not being adequately representative of real world, and in-use compliance and testing for Defeat Device features has probably been too lenient.
The big problem in cities today is that so many vehicles are of old technology, cars last so much longer these days, the fleet average age must be something like 10yrs now, so it takes a long time for new standards to work through and show any real world effect.
Politicians have always been slow in understanding the issues, and most simply don't understand the technical aspects of the subject. The industry reps will usually be able to hoodwink them too easily, politicians will never like to admit that they don't understand so they'll go along with what the "experts" tell them, and then they fully understand the subject, yes?
Diesel cars still have a future. The politicians thought they knew best, but didn't. They didn't understand what they were doing.
Phew I don't have to swap my BMW 123D in for a Kia Piccanto. Thanks Embee :)
Bikes even have a 'dip' on their map. I remember watching my bike several times on the dyno and with standard can etc, a definitive dip in the rpm at around 4k. I think that this was more for noise emissions than anything else :)
dizzyblonde
05-10-15, 04:06 PM
:thumright:
last week the Diesel was 2p a ltr cheaper than the petrol at my local.
Diesel has been a few pence cheaper than petrol for quite some weeks now, and here is the reason why....
*puts on tin hat*
They knew exactly what would happen months ago with VW, and knew the sale of diesel cars would plummet considerably, as well as them having to remove cars from sale until they sorted out the illegal issues. What better way of pulling the wool over the public eye by firstly reducing the cost of diesel, so any Joe looking to buy a new car thinks, 'hey diesel is cheap and economical too', lots of cars bought whilst diesel is going cheap at the pumps....ooops drop big clanger all of a sudden by magical surprise, oh well, at least we got rid, and made lots of money before theres a big hooo haaa. Then it will all get hopefully swept under the carpet by swearing VW et al will be very very good in future and all their cars pass emissions tests. Diesel goes back up slowly without anyone battering an eyelid
The End.
Did I tell you I love my PETROL Nissan Note in Blue Rinse colour? :lol:
Wideboy
05-10-15, 09:27 PM
The price of wholesale diesel dropped globally as new refineries opened in Saudi Arabia, the price of a barrel of oil plummeted, Iranian oil entered the market and not to mention over the passed few years refineries have been greatly increasing their capacity to produce diesel and at cheaper costs, yet failed to pass on the cost reductions to the consumer. Something that only came about because of organisations protesting for pump prices to reflect wholesale price drops.
I couldn't get a rats behind if they doubled the tax on my 5 series, goes like **** off a shovel and still returns 55 mpg at 90mph. If I don't use the indicators I get an extra 5mpg and it ****es people off, win win situation.
Yep!
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2012/09/01-2012-tesla-model-s-fd-1347336745.jpg
Bikes even have a 'dip' on their map.
Pretty sure the Suzuki PAIR valve is primarily an emission test cheat.
Luckypants
06-10-15, 09:25 AM
Pretty sure the Suzuki PAIR valve is primarily an emission test cheat.This and viney's point are different to the VW case. These are permanent devices on all the time and clear to the emissions bodies of all countries. Yes they are there to meet noise / pollutant emissions standards, but are part of the bikes systems being tested. VW have a Defeat Device (see Embee's post for definition) fitted to some of their diesels so they meet emissions when tested, but do not operate in 'normal driving' - very different.
ClunkintheUK
06-10-15, 09:59 AM
I have heard, but perhaps EmBee will be able to clarify/correct, but most European emissions standards reflect emissions per mile, whereas US standards as based on emissions per unit of fuel burnt. So the VAG diesels, and presumably a number of other manufacturers, with the more efficient diesel engines struggle more than the ridiculous 7l cummins diesels because they are simple not burning enough fuel to cover the rest of their emissions.
I found out about this 3rd hand from my brother who was buying a VW golf in the States about 5 years ago. Having had diesels here he basically wanted the same over there only to be told the above and that they don't sell the GT TDI (or GTD as they have become) in the US and to get the GTI instead.
There's ways aplenty to reduce NOx .
Next month's headlines
"Diesels go from strength to strength".''
"..NOx-trap technology, containing platinum-rhodium catalyst and originally developed for gasoline direct injection (GDI) applications, is being considered for diesel engines (5). The low sulfur tolerance and the need for a rich spike to regenerate the trap has always been a drawback, but some promising materials are now emerging. A NOx-trap incorporated into a particle filter seems to offer a solution as the trap removes the particles generated during the rich spike. Ultra low sulfur fuels are essential for this technology (8), and oil companies are working towards a World standard for diesel fuel."....
I have heard, but perhaps EmBee will be able to clarify/correct, but most European emissions standards reflect emissions per mile, whereas US standards as based on emissions per unit of fuel burnt......................
It's complicated.
I think what you're referring to is possibly a confusion between the emission certification testing and standards for regulated pollutants (basically NOx, CO, and various hydrocarbons, non-methane organic gas NMOG, total hydrocarbons THC, fomaldehyde etc), and the fuel economy ratings (i.e. CO2), or it might be a reference to static tailpipe check like our MOT tests where it is a concentration (parts per million ppm or % depending on the pollutant).
Static tailpipe tests only really indicate whether emission control systems are functioning or not, it is a very crude test, it won't tell you whether a vehicle would satisfy test cycle emissions standards, but of course it doesn't need any sort of rolling road facility.
Regulated pollutants are toxic stuff, and are given in values of mass/distance over the specified test cycle, in the US they still use miles so it's gm/mi (they do use grammes), in the EC it's in gm/km, that's per km of the test cycle. Those standards apply to the test cycle, not to any other driving condition.
CO2 is just fuel economy by another name, and as such is NOT a regulated pollutant, it is a taxation tool, though it is being considered whether a maximum should be applied.
The US cert standards are very complex, as a taster read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_emission_standards and http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/standards/light-duty/ld-cff.htm
EEC standards are a little more straightforward https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards
No matter what we all say about this diesel job,I would say 75%or more of people buy what they want or more critical what they can afford.For a lot of people it's a matter of cost of transport and if Bob or Janet (I'm not sexist) down the road has got a nice little reliable runaround for a couple of hundred quid then that will do,diesel or petrol principles are out of Many folks reach
fizzwheel
07-10-15, 09:42 PM
I dont think so no. But what I think we will see is people buying Diesels when the journeys they do in them are suited. i.e. buying a Diesel because its "more economical" when you only drive a couple of miles to work / on the school run.
They're also starting to apply standard "diesel" technologies to petrol cars to get better efficiency, such as direct injection. Turbocharged small petrol engines are suddenly all over the market.
But demand for diesel is high and pretty much everything uses it apart from petrol cars, motorbikes and chainsaws. I think diesel will still eclipse petrol eventually, if electric doesn't take over in the meantime.
yorkie_chris
10-10-15, 05:43 PM
EGR's are absolutely wank, can't blame them for bypassing them.
So they've given 3 people in london a bit of a cough.
I did some fag packet calculations and reckon that them bodging round the EGR means they've saved emitting something like 2.3 million tonnes of CO2 per year
Give them a medal.
andrewsmith
10-10-15, 06:45 PM
Or the equivalent to a weekend racing with Berlin
sent with all the fury of a clogged drain!!
keith_d
11-10-15, 02:24 PM
Diesel and petrol cost about the same to produce, and both pay around 80p per litre in direct taxes. But a litre of diesel contains about 15% more energy and turbo-diesels are a more efficient than comparable petrol engines. So from an miles per £ perspective the diesel is looking good.
Diesel engines used to be significantly more expensive to build because of the tighter tolerances needed, but that gap is closing. Partly because petrol engines are becoming more complex to meet emission requirements, but mostly due to better automated manufacturing. What used to be expensive precision engines are now just another routine product for the engine assembly line.
So simple economics suggests that we will be seeing more diesels in future, not less.
Its more the eco friendly crew that will increase the manufacturing costs that diesel and petrol engine face .
EGR is a rubbish as the soot from the exhaust gum up the system.
Relatively few use post DPF EGR.
ps
Just blanked my Saab's as it gums up the inlet flaps
maviczap
11-10-15, 03:50 PM
Wish I could blank off the one on my Zafira, I've checked and there's no solution.
What's more its bloody scary when the light comes on and the engine goes into limp mode, 3000rpm & 60mph
Sir Trev
11-10-15, 08:17 PM
I'll stick with petrol as long as I can. My 1.6 Ecoboost 150 suits my driving just fine.
andrewsmith
11-10-15, 08:19 PM
I'll stick with petrol as long as I can. My 1.6 Ecoboost 150 suits my driving just fine.
I'm in a 10 year old 1.6 duratec which has is background in cars older than me :shock:
sent with all the fury of a clogged drain!!
maviczap
11-10-15, 08:33 PM
I'll stick with petrol as long as I can. My 1.6 Ecoboost 150 suits my driving just fine.
Next ones going to be petrol, i could get away with an electric for the majority of my driving.
Amadeus
14-10-15, 07:24 AM
Does anyone know why VW falisifed the testing of their vehicles?
Was it to pass a test or was it just to make it look better in comparison to other cars?
If the former, when my car is "fixed", does that mean it's likely to fail the next MOT?
If it's the latter, does that mean my car will be seen as inefficient/unclean when it comes to selling it on?
Or was it another reason entirely?
NOx is not mesured on the current MOT standard.
Amadeus
14-10-15, 10:37 AM
So why falsify it? I don't understand
So why falsify it? I don't understand
The tests a new vehicle model has to go through to be declared fit for use on our roads are far more stringent than the MOT.
The US also have their own tests which aren't the same as ours.
Coming from the industry but not having any direct knowledge of what VW did, my guess is that they've calibrated the EGR system so that it essentially stops functioning, or at least is dramatically cut down, when out on the road.
To be clear, VW haven't fiddled the certification tests, the vehicles will pass the tests, they've engineered the system such that it deliberately doesn't apply the same principles of emission control when operating outside the envelope of the emission tests. This is expressly prohibited, it is not complying with the "spirit" of the emission control legislation. This is what in legal terms is called a "defeat device". It doesn't have to be a stand alone "device", it refers to how the system works. As such I have some (a little) sympathy for the senior management at VW, they don't know how the engineering department calibrate the engine management, trust me they don't.
The reasons they might calibrate the EGR system this way is to improve driveability, improve fuel economy and power, and who knows maybe even to reduce the service issues on the EGR system. The ranges over which this will apply certainly won't show up in any UK MOT test which is all done at essentially no load and is a very perfunctory test. I'd say no, any "fix" won't affect an MOT test.
Will it affect the used value? Well, if it's a VW diesel I think that bird has flown.
Amadeus
14-10-15, 11:50 AM
Thanks chaps. I learn a little more every day
I can see a budding opportunity to supply VW EGR Restrictor plates.
Edit
Someone has got there already
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj266/baz88icf/Leon/P1010226.jpg
punyXpress
18-10-15, 09:56 AM
Looks like it.
Still, with all those diesels going to the scrapper in the sky, cost of heating oil will drop like a stone and I'll be toasty all winter long!
punyXpress
18-10-15, 08:27 PM
With Defeat Device fitted:
Just a little snippet which doesn't say much, but the issue is at least being questioned
http://www.enginetechnologyinternational.com/exclusive_articles.php?ArticleID=1517
.... and another
http://www.enginetechnologyinternational.com/news.php?NewsID=74047
But some VW's already use AdBlue.
But I guess its not swiched on in the ECM ???
Links to VW. http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/technology/diesel/adblue
maviczap
24-10-15, 07:41 AM
But some VW's already use AdBlue.
But I guess its not swiched on in the ECM ???
Yep both our Crafters have Adblue systems
The old 2Ltd had it.
But later ones had a different system.
I think it was called add cheat ;)
maviczap
26-10-15, 05:19 PM
The old 2Ltd had it.
But later ones had a different system.
I think it was called add cheat ;)
No, that was the later more refined system. Saved VW loads of time & money by not having to install that Adblu tank & gubbins
Just a little tweak on the ECU chipset
Bluepete
27-10-15, 12:39 PM
So, has anyone else had a letter from their car manufacturer saying that their car is definitely affected?
I have.
"Technical solutions are being developed to rectify the issue"
Ah well.
Pete;)
http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/owners/dieselinfo
If you are worried that your vw group car is affected.
So, has anyone else had a letter from their car manufacturer saying that their car is definitely affected?
I have.
"Technical solutions are being developed to rectify the issue"
Ah well.
Pete;)
Nope, but i have BMW :)
timwilky
27-10-15, 01:46 PM
So, has anyone else had a letter from their car manufacturer saying that their car is definitely affected?
I have.
"Technical solutions are being developed to rectify the issue"
Ah well.
Pete;)
yes, had that. At least the 2.0L doesn't need an injector fettle
Is your car still under warranty.
Anything said if you don't bother with the updates.
Mrs DJ Fridge
27-10-15, 11:48 PM
My lorries are relatively aged and therefore diesel without adblue but they keep right on going and there is no way I am going to change either of them, especially as Mercedes have just quoted 85, 000 to replace a perfectly good working vehicle that is just a little scruffy (it drives beautifully) , and as to the cars the short trip one is petrol and the long trip one is diesel we share whenever possible, obviously aided by the fact that we work together.
yorkie_chris
28-10-15, 08:13 AM
yes, had that. At least the 2.0L doesn't need an injector fettle
Do the 2.0 engines last long enough to release any NOX? :mrgreen:
andrewsmith
28-10-15, 08:45 AM
Do the 2.0 engines last long enough to release any NOX? :mrgreen:
It's normally as one big lump then the turbo goes
sent with all the fury of a clogged drain!!
Next instalment
http://www.enginetechnologyinternational.com/news.php?NewsID=74639
Luckypants
06-11-15, 12:41 PM
Wonder if the position has now changed on my 1.6 diesel?
Latest news ...........
http://www.enginetechnologyinternational.com/news.php?NewsID=75647
Toooldtodie
04-12-15, 06:14 PM
What with all this VW malarkey, and im sure other manufacturers will be found out as well, and the fact that people have been banging on about Diesel emissions for a while, are Diesel cars/vehicles days numbered?
Discuss?
Have to admit to hating diesels as my lungs have direct injection!
Maybe my days are numbered?! Cough, splutter!!
So, has anyone else had a letter from their car manufacturer saying that their car is definitely affected?
I have.
"Technical solutions are being developed to rectify the issue"
Ah well.
Pete;)
yup... to be sorted at the next service which in the lifetime i will have it will be never as i will be lucky to put 12k on the car in 3 years.
A bit or resurrection, but FWIW ........... (US fix)
http://www.enginetechnologyinternational.com/news.php?NewsID=76485
timwilky
14-01-16, 10:22 AM
I bet VW are breathing a sigh of relief that the lax european regs are not going to require an upgraded cat unlike the US.
andrewsmith
14-01-16, 01:52 PM
And Renault have now been raided as part of all this
Sent from my E2303 using Tapatalk
And Renault have now been raided as part of all this
Sent from my E2303 using Tapatalkhttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/12099314/Nearly-2bn-wiped-off-Renaults-shares-on-reports-of-emissions-probe.html
Clever VW marketing?
One more little bit
http://www.enginetechnologyinternational.com/news.php?NewsID=77421
A bit more from Germany.
http://www.enginetechnologyinternational.com/news.php?NewsID=77659
The USA has had "in use compliance testing" ever since I can remember.
I seem to recall that there was a bit of a scandal here in the UK some years ago when some authorities started roadside tests and were fining people for vehicles failing the test, when there was no way for the owner to know whether they were actually committing any offence, a totally unacceptable situation. Some people had only had MOTs done the previous day or 2. It was stopped fairly quickly.
Just so we're going to get some Ballance.
Hears the extract from the BBC website for a little comparison what may surprise you...
,@BBC
"Diesel-powered trains like the one I commute on are found on many major routes across the UK. The East Coast Main Line linking Edinburgh to London, the Great Western route through to Cornwall, and London services to Sheffield and Nottingham are just some examples.
An East Coast train passes one operated by Cross Country at Newcastle Station.Image copyrightPA
Image caption
East Coast mainline trains run on diesel
The average reading I got on-board my air conditioned train was 8.5. A researcher from King's College conducted an experiment to mirror mine on his train journey from London to Exeter and came out with similar results.
My time spent standing on the station concourse at London St Pancras, waiting for my train, produced a reading of 13.2.
So it turns out that during the 80 minutes I spend sitting still on a train every day I am being exposed to more diesel fumes than when I'm walking or cycling down a street full of traffic in London. On the day I took an electric train instead, my reading was only 2.4."..
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