Need help with PCN

[agy]

Hi Guys

I hope maybe someone can give me suggestions on what arguments to use to have any chance of winning this. My first challenge was rejected so I'll try again but looking to build up my case more.

I live and work in Wandsworth. Common knowledge in this borough: you can park on the pavement. I even made extra sure few years ago by calling the council to confirm it is in fact legal. They said yes. No one ever mentioned there may be exceptions.

I have been parking on the pavements of Wandsworth for years without issues. Especially one particular pavement near my work as there is lots of room for people to pass and it's a side street too. Never had problems until last week when I got the PCN. I thought this is rubbish as clearly I've done nothing illegal to the best of my knowledge and in fact did what I thought was right and proper by calling the council in the past. It said I was parked on a single yellow during restriction hours. I challenged it by saying I was on the pavement, not on the road where the yellow line is. Never been fined there before in all this time. Turns out there is a rule I or anyone I know has never heard of - if there is a yellow line, it actually applies to the pavement too! I hear this is in fact true but how on earth was I meant to know?

They said it's my responsibility to ensure I am parked legally but for goodness sake, if you check to make sure and someone says yes, you leave it at that. Me and another bike have been parking in that bit for a long time (he got a ticket that same day too).

I am very annoyed as it's not like I'm some opportunist hoping to get away with an act I knew was wrong. I followed the correct procedures and now I have a blooming fine when I can certainly be spending this money on essential things.

Can anyone suggest anything I can challenge them with?

[Dipper]

if there is a yellow line, it actually applies to the pavement too!

Unfortunately this is correct, you have little grounds for appeal I'm afraid.

[Red Herring]

Sorry mate, as Dipper said the law is the law. You could try explaining why you thought what you were doing was legal as mitigation, but ultimately parking restrictions apply to the carriageway and that includes pavements. It's an unfortunate consequence of parking enforcement becoming privatised, they'll screw you regardless of whether or not you're causing a problem.

[tom_e]

Ignorance is not a defence unfortunately, don't waste any more time trying to appeal they've got you by the book.

[agy]

I completely understand what you are saying but this is a prime case of "fine print" where you get conned. It ought to be obvious. It isn't. No one who parks and all of a sudden got tickets (it wasn't just me), has ever heard of this. We have all been parking for years and no other traffic enforcement person has given us a ticket. EVER. The banks were done for conning people into buying unnecessary insurance. Apparently it was legal but it was done in such a way that people didn't know. Much the same I feel I have been conned. There is a little known rule no one ever told me about nor have I ever read it on the coucil website and suddenly I am getting penalized. I can't afford this so I will be trying again. Got nothing to lose.

[agy]

Tom, I am not ignorant. I believe I have done everything to comply with the law by checking Wandsworth parking and even calling them personally.

[carelesschucca]

You keep saying that you didn't know, it's never happened before. On one else has done anything about it, but it's there in writing.

Sorry to say but I think you have two chances with this.

[tom_e]

It was not meant in an offensive way.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/road-markings

Waiting restrictions indicated by yellow lines apply to the carriageway, pavement and verge.

[agy]

If you call the council and they say you can park on the pavement no probs then that's that. Like I say, everyone I spoke to never heard of this fact. Wouldn't even cross my mind to find whether lines apply to the pavement as it makes no logical sense at all. The marking is on the road. Not on the pavement. It's like someone telling you the price of the item on shelf 1 also applies to the DIFFERENT item on shelf 2 although there is no indication of it being the case and item 1 is expensive and item 2 is shabby.

Parking restriction on the road stops vehicles from obstructing the passage of other vehicles or access. No vehicles will be passing through the pavement. It is logical to think the restriction applies to the road that is actually being used. Not the attached pavement that has nothing to do with passage or access of the adjecent road.

[Red Herring]

You may consider this a case of "fine print", but you certainly haven't been conned. I'm guessing that at some point you passed your driving/riding test and that this contained an element of the Highway Code? Read rule 145 (mine's the 2007 edition, if you have a different one then look up "Pavements" in the back). It tells you not to drive (ride) on or over a pavement.

Failing that look up "Parking" in your Highway code. Rule 244 (again might be different in yours) but that specifically tells you not to park on the pavement in London (which I think Wandsworth is) because it's a specific offence under section 15 of the Greater London (General Powers) Act 1974, regardless of how many yellow lines there are.

Incidentally, before anyone else points it out the legislation quoted by the HWC in rule 145 is a load of tosh. It cites the Highway Act 1835 sect 72 which is all about riding horses or tethering livestock on a footpath or part of a road set aside for pedestrians, and the Road Traffic Act 1988 sect 34 which is about driving elsewhere than on a road (and a pavement is most certainly part of a road), so neither piece of legislation is appropriate to riding a motorcycle on a pavement.

[Biker Biggles]

If,and its a big if,you can prove your conversation with Wandsworth council telling you that you can park there you might have a case as they are the enforcing authority.However,if they deny any conversation you are probably bu88ered.

[squirrel_hunter]

The only thing I can add here is the question of, are you sure you were on the pavement?

From my knowledge the pavement only extends to the boundary of the building. So there might actually be part of the building that is level with the pavement that you can park on. You can usually see this with different construction materials, but might not be obvious, and I don't know the area you got the ticket in. But its why you don't get a ticket for parking on your driveway if you are lucky enough to have one.

[yorkie_chris]

If you call the council and they say you can park on the pavement no probs then that's that. Like I say, everyone I spoke to never heard of this fact. Wouldn't even cross my mind to find whether lines apply to the pavement as it makes no logical sense at all. The marking is on the road. Not on the pavement. It's like someone telling you the price of the item on shelf 1 also applies to the DIFFERENT item on shelf 2 although there is no indication of it being the case and item 1 is expensive and item 2 is shabby.

Parking restriction on the road stops vehicles from obstructing the passage of other vehicles or access. No vehicles will be passing through the pavement. It is logical to think the restriction applies to the road that is actually being used. Not the attached pavement that has nothing to do with passage or access of the adjecent road.

Fact is these people are a waste of space, the traffic wardens aren't inclined to apply common sense and are probably on a commission for getting people.

Person you spoke to on phone may have applied common sense and/or guidelines at the time... you have no proof of this, even if you had and they were wrong at the time. They're council bureaucrats... job protection and *rse covering is their entire world... you have snowballs chance in hell anyone will admit to that conversation in writing!

Yes they are thieving scum for handing tickets out for what's not doing anyone any harm, but if it comes to it you have your day in court then they probably will take the letter of the law (my opinion), rather than common sense.


Try pepipoo forums IMO, if there is a way to get out of paying it they will know about it... the best way to phrase an appeal etc.

It may be worth appealing but check out pepipoo and you should get a reasonable idea of the chances of success. Have to consider whether appeal means loss of chance of the discount if paid within 14 days that some of them offer? Up to you then.


P.S a lot of people ignore private parking invoices... this is not one of those, don't ignore it.

[Littlepeahead]

The only thing I can add here is the question of, are you sure you were on the pavement?

From my knowledge the pavement only extends to the boundary of the building. So there might actually be part of the building that is level with the pavement that you can park on. You can usually see this with different construction materials, but might not be obvious, and I don't know the area you got the ticket in. But its why you don't get a ticket for parking on your driveway if you are lucky enough to have one.

A lot of places in the City have little studs in the pavement that shows the boundary of the property. They are quite subtle.

Agy, don't take this as aimed at you as your case sounds different, I mean this generally, but having now spent a fair bit of time with Debs and her guide dog you realise just how inconsiderate it is when people park on the pavement even when there are no lines - be that bikes or cars and vans. That could be where a delivery driver puts two wheels up on the curb or a biker parking outside a shop because there is a wider pavement. The dog won't be able to get through the space and so this forces the visually impaired person to have to walk into the road. (Same for those with pushchairs). I think all those people should get a ticket. It could be that a few complaints have been made about inconsiderate parking in that area and whereas you never got a ticket before they are now applying the the rules more stringently and you got unlucky.

[agy]

Thanks Chris. I have posted on pepipoo. Anything is worth a try as it's a lot of money. I know what everyone is saying about this actually being correct but I still don't think it's fair as it's not like I knew and did something really obviously illegal hoping to get away with it. It's not like I blatantly stopped on a yellow line on a busy road and fecked off for the day blocking everyone. They are s**m and making money of people who are actually honest and law abiding.
Littlepeahead, it's a really wide pavement with tons of room.

[Red Herring]

Agy, one of the things that makes this forum stand out from many others is that we are generally fairly polite to each other and it's very rare for anyone to have a proper dig at someone, and this is particularly important when you consider how many people buy SV's as their first big bike and as a result come on here fairly inexperienced around all things motorcycles....

You will find lots of threads on here about how people have made mistakes and they ask for advice on how to sort it out, and we want to help them do so, but the vast majority of these individuals accept they have made a mistake and just want to learn from it.

With all due respect you are not coming across that way. You seem to think it's everybody else fault but yours, and that simply isn't the case. It's not a scam and you're not being conned. You did do something that was really obviously illegal, you rode a motorcycle up onto the pavement and left it there. As you pointed out, and we have discussed, lots of people do it, but that doesn't make it any less illegal. If you genuinely thought it was OK to ride on the pavement (or park there) then I seriously suggest you dig out your Highway Code and have another read through it because there are lots and lots of rules and regulations just waiting to trip you up and ignorance is no defence. Knowing what you are doing is your responsibility, nobody else's. By all means check out the location and make sure you really were on the pavement (post a link to where it is on here if you want some advice on it), and feel free to slag off parking attendants, we've all done it at some point, but please stop making out you've been treated unfairly. It sounds to me as if you're got away with it for quite a while, just be grateful for that.

[Littlepeahead]

My colleague took his Lambretta into a no vehicles zone a couple of weeks back. Engine off, and pushed it over a pavement, through the closed off bit then across the other pavement and then started up the engine and rode off. He was caught on camera and got a fine. He asked me what I thought about appealing, as he wasn't 'riding' the bike at the time. I checked with a friendly orger in the know who advised me that he had no chance in an appeal because even when your bike has the engine switched off it's still a motor vehicle and if you take that past a sign saying no vehicles you've broken the law. Like you, he had done this before and not got a ticket, but now they have put up a camera. It wasn't legal before, he was just lucky not to get caught. Sounds like you may have a similar situation.

[Luckypants]

Ignorance is not a defence unfortunately, don't waste any more time trying to appeal they've got you by the book.

Tom, I am not ignorant. I believe I have done everything to comply with the law by checking Wandsworth parking and even calling them personally.

<snip> If you genuinely thought it was OK to ride on the pavement (or park there) then I seriously suggest you dig out your Highway Code and have another read through it because there are lots and lots of rules and regulations just waiting to trip you up and ignorance is no defence. <snip>

Just want to point out here Agy, they are not calling you 'ignorant', but pointing out that well known adage that ignorance of the law is no defence. i.e. Not knowing what you are doing is against the law does not mean you cannot be prosecuted for it.

No one is calling you names :D

[shiftin_gear98]

2 cents worth,
Pay the fine and move on with your life.
You posted a thread asking for advise, as many of us have done.
The org hasn't let you down, they have given their vast insight. You just don't seem to like what they have said.


Life sucks. But if we don't learn from it, it sucks even more. At least it's only your bank balance that hurts this time round.
Hopefully tomorrow will be better.

[agy]

I fully understand the counter argument but we will have to agree to disagree

[Bibio]

if you cant afford the fine in one lump sum then ask to pay in instalments but do this before the 14 days.

ooohhh and as a person who has to push a wheelchair.. you should not be parking on the pavement and i dont care how wide it is. find a M/C parking bay and park in that.. its what they are there for. if there are no M/C parking bays then ask the local council to put one in.

[Biker Biggles]

Agy, one of the things that makes this forum stand out from many others is that we are generally fairly polite to each other and it's very rare for anyone to have a proper dig at someone, and this is particularly important when you consider how many people buy SV's as their first big bike and as a result come on here fairly inexperienced around all things motorcycles....

You will find lots of threads on here about how people have made mistakes and they ask for advice on how to sort it out, and we want to help them do so, but the vast majority of these individuals accept they have made a mistake and just want to learn from it.

With all due respect you are not coming across that way. You seem to think it's everybody else fault but yours, and that simply isn't the case. It's not a scam and you're not being conned. You did do something that was really obviously illegal, you rode a motorcycle up onto the pavement and left it there. As you pointed out, and we have discussed, lots of people do it, but that doesn't make it any less illegal. If you genuinely thought it was OK to ride on the pavement (or park there) then I seriously suggest you dig out your Highway Code and have another read through it because there are lots and lots of rules and regulations just waiting to trip you up and ignorance is no defence. Knowing what you are doing is your responsibility, nobody else's. By all means check out the location and make sure you really were on the pavement (post a link to where it is on here if you want some advice on it), and feel free to slag off parking attendants, we've all done it at some point, but please stop making out you've been treated unfairly. It sounds to me as if you're got away with it for quite a while, just be grateful for that.
Bit harsh.There is also a long and hard fought tradition on this site of standing up to petty officialdom and,in particular,parking and trivial traffic enforcement.I know Spiderman is rarely here these days,but his talents in challenging parking carp lie this might be useful.:cool:

[ManMango]

The only thing I can add here is the question of, are you sure you were on the pavement?

From my knowledge the pavement only extends to the boundary of the building. So there might actually be part of the building that is level with the pavement that you can park on. You can usually see this with different construction materials, but might not be obvious, and I don't know the area you got the ticket in. But its why you don't get a ticket for parking on your driveway if you are lucky enough to have one.

THIS is your only chance. Other than that ide say its fairly well known amongst bikers that the lines apply to pavement as well, no wool being pulled over anyone eyes here. I googled it the very same day I bought my first bike.

[Red Herring]

Bit harsh.There is also a long and hard fought tradition on this site of standing up to petty officialdom and,in particular,parking and trivial traffic enforcement.I know Spiderman is rarely here these days,but his talents in challenging parking carp lie this might be useful.:cool:


I'm no fan of petty officialdom either, but there is a whole lot of difference between thinking up imaginative ways of having one over them and being in denial about what you have done.

Agy asked us for suggestions about how she could beat the ticket she had been given and explained that she didn't know what she was doing was illegal, that she's been breaking the law for ages without being challenged, and that it isn't fair that she's been given a ticket now.

We told her that unfortunately that wasn't going to cut much ice with the authorities, but it would be worth checking to make sure she was actually on the pavement because that is pretty much her only out. She's told us she doesn't accept what she did was wrong and she's going to go ahead with her appeal.

I wish her luck, but I'm not that sympathetic with the position she has found herself in. I don't think that's me being harsh, it's being realistic.

[Balky001]

What did you end up doing Agy? Moral arguments (that you followed advice from the council in good faith) don't usually mean much in court but wondered if you took this on anyway

[yorkie_chris]

You can always cheer yourself up watching "lock stock and 2 smoking barrels"

[Fordward]

Just want to point out here Agy, they are not calling you 'ignorant', but pointing out that well known adage that ignorance of the law is no defence. i.e. Not knowing what you are doing is against the law does not mean you cannot be prosecuted for it.

No one is calling you names :D

As someone who's got a lot of experience of dealing in close relationships with different cultures and different languages Agy, I can promise you that things are getting lost in translation here.

"Ignorance of the law" is a commonly used expression in English. It's not an insult or critisism, though if you aren't familar with the expression, or if you translate it into a different language, I can totally understand why it might come across that way.

My French wife sometimes takes things I've said the wrong way, but it's just becasue I've used an old expression she doesn't know, and the words and the meaning aren't the same.

[Claude]

Nothing to add on this topic but awesome abs Agy. That's a whole bunch of gym work right there!