loud exhausts save lives... [Archive] - SV650.org

Craig380

02-10-16, 04:02 PM

Agree 100%. My old GT380 had J&R expansion chambers and it sounded bloody glorious, just the right side of offensive. But I get far fewer people pulling out on me on the SV with the factory standard quiet pipe - probably because of the twin headlights being harder to miss than the crappy old glow-worm on the GT.

I actually quite enjoy having a quieter bike, the spannies did get a bit wearisome after an hour or so ... or maybe I'm just getting old :)

Fen Tiger

03-10-16, 07:10 AM

In this age of sound insulated vehicles and headphone wearing road users (drivers, cyclists and pedestrians) it has to be assumed that you haven't been heard no matter how load the exhaust or horn unless you see a reaction. Assume you haven't been seen too unless you can see the whites of their eyes in your direction!
There have been so many injuries due to headphone use there should be a national campaign highlighting the dangers.

ophic

03-10-16, 10:41 AM

what saves lives is people paying attention.
There have been so many injuries due to headphone use there should be a national campaign highlighting the dangers.
I agree with the above statements.

However it's not a one-size-fits-all situation. I'm fairly positive that a loud exhaust will have saved someone's life somewhere. All you can do is make yourself as noticeable as possible.

For those that wear earphones and cross busy London roads without looking... well those are a lost cause and Darwin will get them sooner or later. If they need it explaining to them why it's a bad idea, I suspect that they'll just never get it.

Cars aren't the only traffic on the road, especially around London. For all the cyclists, pedestrians and other motorcycle riders, an audible exhaust definitely adds an extra indication of your presence. Perhaps if people sit in sound insulated boxes, there's an argument for the exhaust to be even louder.

Emergency vehicles use sirens as well as lights. There must be a reason for this.

macamxthe1st

03-10-16, 04:28 PM

Sad to say the only way to ride is believing that you are invisible and the chosen few who can actually see you are going to try and kill you.

Geoff.

Moleman

03-10-16, 06:38 PM

Sad to say the only way to ride is believing that you are invisible and the chosen few who can actually see you are going to try and kill you.

Geoff.

Totally agree with this

Corny Gizmo

04-10-16, 11:31 AM

Sad to say the only way to ride is believing that you are invisible and the chosen few who can actually see you are going to try and kill you.

Geoff.

+2

ophic

04-10-16, 02:27 PM

You see I go with the belt & braces approach. Make your presence as known as possible. Then ride as if you're invisible.

Trev B

04-10-16, 02:45 PM

I agree Ophic,then treat everyone else on the road as an idiot !!!

Moleman

04-10-16, 04:47 PM

Totally agree with above bang on the money in my opinion and made me smile :-)

Blapper

04-10-16, 05:10 PM

My SV is my avatar, it's bright red. I ride with lights on and had an old **** pull out on me. He said sorry I didn't see you, I said no, I'M sorry - you didn't actually look. I saw his car coming out of the side turning between parked cars and was on the brakes before he got in front of me. If I was going faster or not looking, things would be very different.

I came back from a ten year 'holiday' in France five years ago. Jeez, what a difference in traffic while I was away. The whole country feels like London used to now. :-( To be honest, biking is sh*te these days.

garynortheast

04-10-16, 06:02 PM

I came back from a ten year 'holiday' in France five years ago. Jeez, what a difference in traffic while I was away. The whole country feels like London used to now. :-( To be honest, biking is sh*te these days.

I think it depends on where you ride. We're pretty blessed with good riding conditions here in Mid Wales generally, although the tourist season can be a bit frustrating at times, especially on weekends. As soon as you get off the main roads though, and onto the smaller roads it's possible to ride for miles and see next to nobody.

France is a good place to ride in my experience. Drivers are pretty on the ball and tend to indulge in fewer of the testosterone/ego induced driving antics than I see on roads here in Britain.

Blapper

05-10-16, 07:46 AM

Ah yes, I am in north Kent. :-( I drove up through Wales at speed once, it was faaabulous!

I agree the French are not overtly aggressive generally (in my experience), but they are pretty vacuous (like anywhere else) so need to be treated like cattle.

I find it usual to encounter probably at least one aggressive driver per hours journey around here though.

NTECUK

05-10-16, 10:09 AM

Deaf people drive as well.....

ophic

05-10-16, 06:02 PM

Deaf people drive as well.....

As do people with sight deficiencies. Mild tunnel vision, for example. However you'd expect deaf people to look. Or not last long. Unlike fully able drivers who don't look or hear.

And a big rumbly twin with loud pipes... you don't have to hear it. You can feel it :cool:

Toooldtodie

05-10-16, 06:18 PM

Try blipping the throttle between two vans! They act like sounding boards! Priceless. It even works with cars, they generally move over or suffer hearing loss, but I do thank them for their courtesy!

NTECUK

06-10-16, 12:10 PM

As do people with sight deficiencies. Mild tunnel vision, for example. However you'd expect deaf people to look. Or not last long. Unlike fully able drivers who don't look or hear.

And a big rumbly twin with loud pipes... you don't have to hear it. You can feel it :cool:
I'm all for the argument.
I changed my OE pipe straight after the 500 service.
"It's a safety device" I told her indoors.... ;)

madcockney

06-10-16, 04:33 PM

You will find that in different parts of the UK people drive differently, and it can vary in as much as ten miles. I believe that we are all responsible for our own safety so should never rely on anybody else and assume that people whether on bikes or in cars often make mistakes or do not even think. Looking for and searching for other vehicles and hazards is something that needs to be learnt and not just told. I am pretty sure that our eyes and brain have a natural focusing distance and hence why some near vehicles are missed, though sometimes the driver/rider just forgets we are there.

And I do not believe that loud pipes save lives. What they will do is **** off pedestrians and local residents, but in a car, especially where they have the insulation of the vehicle plus any on board sound system, that is virtually impossible to hear. Ask yourself what way the pipes point and what direction are the cars going. I like the sound of different cans but that is a personal preference, but they don't have to be excessively loud to do that. I never delude myself that they are any form of safety device or precaution.

ophic

07-10-16, 09:59 AM

And I do not believe that loud pipes save lives.
We are all entitled to our opinions. Personally, as a regular pedestrian, I can hear
a motorcycle quite some distance away when approaching me. Obviously the louder the exhaust, the further away you can hear it. You can often tell what type of bike it is before even seeing it. You can also get an idea of how fast it's approaching, whether it's accelerating or cruising, etc. Useful information.

However I agree there are limits beyond where it's simply anti-social noise pollution, and can be quite scary and/or intimidating. There was a large scooter with a loud pipe being impatient behind a van this morning and it sounded horrendous. Not sure whether it was the tone, the volume or the aggressive use that made it sound nasty.

Toooldtodie

07-10-16, 05:08 PM

We are all entitled to our opinions. Personally, as a regular pedestrian, I can hear
a motorcycle quite some distance away when approaching me. Obviously the louder the exhaust, the further away you can hear it. You can often tell what type of bike it is before even seeing it. You can also get an idea of how fast it's approaching, whether it's accelerating or cruising, etc. Useful information.

However I agree there are limits beyond where it's simply anti-social noise pollution, and can be quite scary and/or intimidating. There was a large scooter with a loud pipe being impatient behind a van this morning and it sounded horrendous. Not sure whether it was the tone, the volume or the aggressive use that made it sound nasty.

Very true Ophic.
You can bimble with a loud zorst and I do that in residential areas and near pedestrians, dogs and esp. horses (clutch in and coast).
Just can't give up the pop, rumble on the overrun... addict! :(

Dave20046

07-10-16, 08:20 PM

Not all the time but in some scenarios, particularly when filtering. I commute by car daily and look at the difference between standard cans and aftermarkets on the bikes coming past. Often I think people only move/look because they see I have.
The thing I see the most which still drives me facking insane is folded in mirrors, not only does it mean they can't see the bike approaching it means they haven't checked their mirrors ONCE since leaving their house to wherever we are...or don't care. Silent bikes and car drivers like that really make me worry.

There have been instances on group rides where we've been doing a motorway section and have swapped leader to a louder can, just to get the traffic to part . There is definitely an increased chance of being heard.

Dave20046

07-10-16, 08:29 PM

What they will do is **** off pedestrians and local residents, but in a car, especially where they have the insulation of the vehicle plus any on board sound system, that is virtually impossible to hear. Ask yourself what way the pipes point and what direction are the cars going. I like the sound of different cans but that is a personal preference, but they don't have to be excessively loud to do that. I never delude myself that they are any form of safety device or precaution.
Make a wish and every bike in the uk suddenly has standard cans...those pedestrians are still getting ****ed off with Harley Davidsons.

I think most of the public just accept 'motorbikes are loud', there's no need to be hyper aware or worrying that you are annoying them. I remember people marveling at how far you could hear certain sportscars, not living far away from quite popular country roads we used to hear them a lot and guess what it was, never got annoyed.

I think for most people fast/performance=loud and they accept that...what that has been proven to do is skew people's perception of speed which is my worry. If I'm on a bike with a loud can are people going to assume I'm screaming past really fast? Then imagine you are involved with an accident ; humans have a morbid interest in accidents, those people would probably bear witness that the bike was going 'way too fast' without really taking in anything other than the sound at the time it passed them and then piecing together the memories once they're aware there's an accident.

Toooldtodie

08-10-16, 11:02 AM

I think for most people fast/performance=loud and they accept that...what that has been proven to do is skew people's perception of speed which is my worry. If I'm on a bike with a loud can are people going to assume I'm screaming past really fast? Then imagine you are involved with an accident ; humans have a morbid interest in accidents, those people would probably bear witness that the bike was going 'way too fast' without really taking in anything other than the sound at the time it passed them and then piecing together the memories once they're aware there's an accident.

That is a very valid point and is in human nature to equate loud with fast. Is that another reason for us all to wear helmet cams?

Red ones

08-10-16, 11:18 AM

There are times I have used reverse psychology.
If I want to go fast I check the baffle is in. Why draw attention to myself through more reasons than necessary?

ophic

08-10-16, 11:18 PM

That is a very valid point and is in human nature to equate loud with fast. Is that another reason for us all to wear helmet cams?
Don't agree. We have 3 dimensional hearing and can place a moving sound reasonably accurately as long as it is audible. There are other cues - rising pitch indicates acceleration. Volume is pretty much irrelevant.

But perhaps not everyone is the same.

madcockney

09-10-16, 09:37 PM

There is some research into what we hear, what we associate it with in relationship to vehicles, etc. I don't think that I still have it, but will have a look, but I am sure that an Internet search will discover it if people are really interested.

NTECUK

10-10-16, 11:29 AM

Volume doesn't equal easier to locate.
The whine wop wop sirens of emergency vechles are a pain to figure out what direction they come from.

Dave20046

10-10-16, 05:11 PM

Don't agree. We have 3 dimensional hearing and can place a moving sound reasonably accurately as long as it is audible. There are other cues - rising pitch indicates acceleration. Volume is pretty much irrelevant.

But perhaps not everyone is the same.

It may not apply to ophics , or even me as someone who quite likes a deep exhaust note so wouldn't be looking to demonise them. But on a test group it applies to the majority of humans.
I've only quickly googled it on my telefonical device but this study mentions it

http://scholarship.law.campbell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1273&context=clr

ophic

11-10-16, 08:45 AM

Bibio

11-10-16, 12:31 PM

daktulos

11-10-16, 03:09 PM

i often wonder why they dont incorporate white noise into emergency vehicle sirens.

I think there have been in the past, but if I heard white noise I may not associate it with an emergency vehicle. I'm pretty sure I've heard a wailing siren with a crunch in the middle fairly recently.

ophic

11-10-16, 03:20 PM

the lower a note becomes the less directional it is. white noise is a fantastic directional noise that humans can hear where the source is. low frequency bass note on the other hand and you are less likely to hear the source, get below 30hz and you have no chance hearing where its source is.

i often wonder why they dont incorporate white noise into emergency vehicle sirens.
All true about bass frequencies. Not so much about white noise. As it's flat and uniform, it's difficult to tell the source from the reflections. This is why sirens tend to be mid-pitched and modulated, which also has the advantage of grabbing your attention.

As an aside, no vehicle exhaust emits only low frequencies and are therefore easily directionally located.

Dave20046

12-10-16, 08:30 PM

Nice post and a good find. I'll be sure to keep that study handy.

"Of course I wasn't speeding Officer, my v-twin is just a bit noisy"

Seriously though it does give grounds to discredit any witness that says you were going too fast if your vehicle is noisy, thereby levelling the playing field once again.

I may not be a good example of the average Joe, having obtained a degree in Sound Engineering.
Exactly, it's scary people would be out there looking to point the finger like that but it happens I've heard of instances where people said a bike was going too fast but couldn't even recall the colour - for that reason I'm glad the studies were done!

Yeah, you're somewhat 'different' :p
Also , I think it's as much to do with the way the brain forms memories as it is to do with sound and speed perception. Any copper will tell you the varying accounts of incidents they get. Your brain connects certain dots based on assumptions then passes it onto your conscious as fact/memory, I know I've had distances way out when I've tried to recollect them before.

SV650rules

02-11-16, 06:19 PM

Been proud owner of SV650 AL7 since end of April this year (my first Suzuki) - absolutely great bike does everything I want, engine is a real gem. First thing I fitted was a couple of 10watt Cree LED spots on the handlebars (used a bracket off mirror mountings) - these are mega bright and I feel a LOT safer as people I have ridden with confirm they are visible from the European space station even on a sunny day. May get a different exhaust next year although stock exhaust noise is OK, but being as most bike accidents happen when people pull out on bikes, don't think a loud exhaust will help as much as a couple of proper bright LED daylight running lights (they are on a separate handlebar mounted switch and can also be on with headlight at night where they give a great spread of light). Car drivers can also see me better in their rear view mirrors as I have had many drivers pull over a bit when I have been filtering - since I have had spots fitted no-one has jumped out of a side road or pulled out when I have been overtaking them.

IMHO all that loud exhausts do is p!ss people off and get bikers a bad name.

ophic

03-11-16, 11:07 AM

...but being as most bike accidents happen when people pull out on bikes...
True that. The police call it "right turn violation".
There are things you can do to mitigate the risks. Bright lights as far apart as you can get them on the bike is one of them (y). Even better if you can get them away from the main headlight as well to form a triangle. It makes your oncoming image "larger". More presence.

I agree that any exhaust loud enough to be of any real use in these situations at a typical 30mph speed would be fairly obnoxious.

tom_e

03-11-16, 03:19 PM

IMHO all that loud exhausts do is p!ss people off and get bikers a bad name.

You'll probably find your bar mounted sun beams are probably ****ing off a lot of drivers as well, they're going to be just the right height to dazzle I'd imagine.

ophic

03-11-16, 03:42 PM

You'll probably find your bar mounted sun beams are probably ****ing off a lot of drivers as well, they're going to be just the right height to dazzle I'd imagine.
The beemers and trumpet adventure style bikes I've seen them on all mount them low down, giving that triangle I mentioned. Might also increase effectiveness in fog or something.

Blapper

03-11-16, 05:41 PM

Interesting that the IAM instructor that did my assessment had an Agrophobic on his R1200GS...

I rode with Viney at the weekend and his exhausts are - erm - 'unique'. It was great to follow him through traffic as my standard bike cannot be heard by car driving eejits with their muzak going but his SV shakes their cages a treat. The seas just parted in front of us.

I see what ophic says a couple of posts up, but on balance, there is no doubt in my mind that they do help some and any help is a good thing. Trouble is I live down a small drive with two other houses and it would wake them up when I get home late so I can't get any. :-(

SV650rules

03-11-16, 06:10 PM

You'll probably find your bar mounted sun beams are probably ****ing off a lot of drivers as well, they're going to be just the right height to dazzle I'd imagine.

Yes they are at the same height as most SUV / 4x4 vehicle headlights, and they P!ss a lot of people off as well.

At least mine are pointed down and towards the kerb and shine on the boot of car in front, and at least I'm only p!ss!ng off one person at a time, not the whole neighbourhood and I can start my bike on my driveway early in a morning and my 'loud' lights don't wake the neigbours. I normally keep a fair distance back from vehicle in front anyway, and if I am going to be stopped behind a car for any length of time (at traffic lights and junctions) I turn the handlebars towards the kerb to get lights out of their mirror - I will be glad if they are 'noticeable' in a cars rear view mirrors as at least they will know I am there.

'motorbike' and 'noisy' are inextricably linked in the mind of the non-biker - and bike manufacturers go to a lot of trouble to make bikes reasonably quiet, my mate had an Aprillia V twin and fitted a 'track use only' pipe to it, when he was on morning shift he left his house at about 5 am (and on afternoon shift he arrived back home after 11 pm), non of his neighbours would speak to him (wonder why). If car drivers took it into their heads that loud exhausts would make them safer the world would be a very noisy place. My lights cost a fraction of the cost of a new exhaust, so I'm happy.

madcockney

04-11-16, 10:30 AM

Where I live we have a lot of cars with "go faster exhausts" fitted. There's an SVU that sounds like it's track car going around the track when it's only doing 5-10 MPH. Personally I have no sympathy for vehicle operators that use "Not For Road Use" exhausts and get done, and I can understand the locals annoyance with them. (I also have never had sympathy for those that have lost there licence for DUI, as well as having no sympathy for those being done for driving using a non hands-free phone whilst driving. I feel that unless more get detected and prosecuted for using phones then drivers will think that they can get away with it, but a lot of it is educating people and making them realise the effects of using a mobile whilst driving.)

Regarding the lights on the handlebars. I find dipped lights in my eyes because they are on the vehicle at a height to do that to be very annoying and in some instances outright dangerous. Back in the 60's and 70's, pre EU, cars were having spotlights fitted to them and many were roof mounted. Lights though not as effective as today's would blind you. Eventually the police, in London anyway, started to prosecute owners of vehicles and those driving them and over time the habit ceased. I don't recall what part of the law was used, or whether it was changed to handle this issue. I believe that you can still have them fitted but must not be operable whilst moving, must be able to be dipped, or must be completely covered. However many lorries have over cab high intensity lights that are on and switched off for approaching vehicles. This maybe one of those things that are allowed under vehicle type approval and maybe an area that the UK adjusted to conform to the EU. (The ex and current traffic cops on here should be able to clarify.) Having ultra bright lights mounted high enough to blind oncoming vehicles with no dip I would have thought comes under the same heading. Personally I find it disrespectful to other road users and is something that we don't want to do is antagonise them when we want them to accept us as bikers and be considerate towards us
.

SV650rules

04-11-16, 12:00 PM

The lights are only 10W (you can get much much more powerful ones), same as the cyclists use these days and are at around the same height off the road as mounted on cycle bars. They are more eye-catching than headlight simply because they are more compact (higher light density) and have a very blue/white output - plod has never shown any interest in them. They are pointed down and towards curb side of road, but still are very visible from head-on.

Luckypants

04-11-16, 01:52 PM

10W LED are MUCH more powerful than anything halogen. If they are the 8000 Lumen items you have the equivalent of about a 400W halogen lamp!

SV650rules

04-11-16, 03:12 PM

10W LED are MUCH more powerful than anything halogen. If they are the 8000 Lumen items you have the equivalent of about a 400W halogen lamp!

Decimal points are in the wrong place, they are about 800lumen (about 40W equivalent halogen) - you can readily get 1000 - 1500 lumen LED lights for push-bikes these days.

In perspective the HID headlights on that SUV shining in your rear view mirror are at least 3000lumens each (can be up to 5000) and are very blue, a colour that your eye is very sensitive to (especially in the dark), that is why HID headlights are soooh annoying (that plus the fact that the self leveling mechanism never seems to work and the beams light up the roof lining of your car).