View Full Version : Electric Cars
Reading about the Tesla model 3 today has peaked my interest in EVs. My commute is 10 miles each way so well within the range of all EVs. They have also fitted charging points in the work car park which I think are free to use.
Effectively this means my commute will be free.
Apart from commuting I mainly just use my car for trips around Milton Keynes, a town littered with EV charging points and most trips are less than 10 miles.
Occasionally I'll do longer trips, maybe a couple of times a month.
Currently I drive a BMW320D it's economical enough, I drive like a moron and still get about 35mpg on the commute, or 50 on the motorway. I estimate I spend £100-150 a month on fuel and average 12,000 miles a year. Car is worth about £5000 and I probably spend £500 a year on servicing, tyres, brakes etc.
So the first question is, would an EV be a viable and economical solution. Obviously buying a brand new car is always going to be expensive, but I am planning to buy a brand new car anyway, probably leasing some sort of diesel car for around £300 a month.
Second question is, what are EVs like to live with? How long do they take to charge? How much does it cost to charge them? What is involved in servicing them? Are real world ranges for someone with a heavy foot like myself approaching real world distances? What reliability issues do you worry about?
Would a plug in hybrid be a better option than a fully electric car?
Thanks :)
the big drawback i see with electric cars is the battery lease. even if you pay for the car up front you still have to pay a lease on the battery's.
i have spoke to a tesla owner when i was up at Dunnet Head and asked how the fek he got an electric car this far north and he said that he had the touring pack fitted that gets him around 240miles out of a charge and the charge takes around an hour form empty.
I would say speak to Brettus as I think he has a BMW but he seems to have dropped off the forum. I didn't realise that you had to lease the battery.
SV650rules
29-07-17, 04:59 PM
We are in a honeymoon period at the moment with EV, people not really interested in them because of cost and range, so free charging and other subsidies being offered, but once enough EV's are sold and government have a captive market just watch the price of charging go upwards rapidly. If EV's ever do get popular in UK we will be in strife with electrical supply because of unreliable wind turbines and solar we are losing our 'base capacity' of reliable electrical power from coal and nuclear.
Electric vehicles are not even gonna help save the planet ......
electric vehicles - the inconvenient truth video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6GeHnMwl1c
Nissan leaf and Renault Zoe are available with lease or buy the HV battery.
punyXpress
29-07-17, 08:02 PM
Zoe battery lease @£69/month
That's more than I spend on diesel for my shonky Skoda!
Interesting, just looked on Autotrader for Nissan Leaf. You can get a low mileage maybe 3yr old example for well under 10k, maybe £7k or so, battery bought. Depreciation is monumental. I think if I was in the market I'd go that way, accepting the fact that after another 3 or 4yrs I'd probably have to give it away. 24kWh battery version looks like it'll give you a reliable 80mls range, maybe a bit more if you drive it conservatively, enough for most daily purposes.
We're in early days yet, another 10yrs of technical development and things may well look a lot better, as long as someone actually gets their backside in gear and thinks about how we are going to generate all the electricity, and we'll see what the Chancellor comes up with to replace all the fuel duty and VAT which will be disappearing before his eyes. The DUP don't pay for themselves you know.
If new model range does get extended significantly, who will want a 6yrs old EV which will only do 80mls? No-one. Scrap it. Very green.
Tree hugging has nothing to do with the reason for considering electric.
0-60 in under 6 seconds and full torque from 0 revs is the main draw :)
Tree hugging has nothing to do with the reason for considering electric.
0-60 in under 6 seconds and full torque from 0 revs is the main draw :)This is a major selling point, I still weep at what an i8 did to me on the sv [emoji23]
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electric cars wont work due to the charging time problems. think about how many cars are on the roads. there will have to be massive 'charging parks' where people are going to have to sit for an hour while their car charges... ermm i dont think the public will be to happy about that. its a logistical nightmare.
the real solution is hydrogen powder. it would be exactly the same as filling up with petrol/diesel, like the public are already accustomed to. the by-product is ermm water which could be collected in a separate tank and taken while you fill up with the hydrogen. the water will be pure so can be circulated into the water supply. its a win win situation.
There's two types of onboard charges on the leaf and the rapid charger.
If you go second hand your need to look at the charge guage to check it's capacity .we had a 66,000 miles one that lost two bar's because of a bad cell.
Yes you can get the cells individually replaced.
Only other thing we have had are two brake pressure monitor sensors two drivers windows motor's and one heater.
They are very reliable tbh.
electric cars wont work due to the charging time problems. think about how many cars are on the roads. there will have to be massive 'charging parks' where people are going to have to sit for an hour while their car charges... ermm i dont think the public will be to happy about that. its a logistical nightmare.
the real solution is hydrogen powder. it would be exactly the same as filling up with petrol/diesel, like the public are already accustomed to. the by-product is ermm water which could be collected in a separate tank and taken while you fill up with the hydrogen. the water will be pure so can be circulated into the water supply. its a win win situation.
Most journeys the cars can easily do TBH.
We have sold lots of leaf model s.
Hydrogen is getting investment.but not very supported just yet maybe 5+ year's time.
SV650rules
30-07-17, 08:16 AM
electric cars wont work due to the charging time problems. think about how many cars are on the roads. there will have to be massive 'charging parks' where people are going to have to sit for an hour while their car charges... ermm i dont think the public will be to happy about that. its a logistical nightmare.
the real solution is hydrogen powder. it would be exactly the same as filling up with petrol/diesel, like the public are already accustomed to. the by-product is ermm water which could be collected in a separate tank and taken while you fill up with the hydrogen. the water will be pure so can be circulated into the water supply. its a win win situation.
Unfortunately Hydrogen is one of the fuels that takes more energy to produce than you get back when you use it, and the major source of hydrogen is cracking the hydrogen from hydro-carbon fuels (yes we are back to fossil fuels, oil, coal and gas, but carbon dioxide is released by this process duuuhhhhh !) but that will not bother the greenies as long as the tailpipe emissions are low. A small amount of hydrogen is produced by electrolysis using electricity and water, consuming approximately 50 kilowatt-hours of electricity per kilogram of hydrogen produced.
The one hour charge even for a 24Kw battery (remember Tesla have gone over 100KWh now) is over 28Kwh (batteries have a charging efficiency factor, which comes from converting electricity into chemical reaction to store it, the only device that actually stores electricity is a capacitor or inductor). This needs a power supply of 120amps at 230volts, this is more power than the average house is allowed to draw off the grid (which is between 80 to 100 amps total - protected by the main circuit breaker and the power company fuses to stop you frying their cable).
As for performance of electric cars, their range is calculated at steady 50mph, and just like a normal car or bike if you use more performance (faster speed or quicker acceleration) you use more fuel, a 300 mile range Tesla at a stead 70 or 80 on the motorway will probably give you just over 200 miles.
There is far too much hype over EV ( and AV autonomous vehicles) at the moment, and as a previous poster noted the depreciation is absolutely massive, spend £30K (less a £5K government contribution) today and in 18 month time get less then £10K back (a Nissan Leaf buyer in Sunderland) - just think how much petrol / diesel £15K would have bought the poor sod. Trouble is the £5k government 'grant' 'subsidy' 'bribe' call it what you will came out of UK taxpayers pocket.
http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/14410937.Man_warns_of_electric_vehicle_depreciatio n_after_losing___15_000_on_Nissan_Leaf_in_18_month s/
Wait for the early adopters to take all the pain and buy when everything is sorted seems a good idea to me because the technology is changing so quickly that if you buy today be prepared to take a big hit on depreciation because as soon as something 'better' is made your car becomes a white elephant and the price will reflect that.
Talking Heads
30-07-17, 10:17 AM
There are two Hydrogen production and refuelling facilities in Aberdeen.
No coal, gas or pollution in sight.
Hydrogen can be created 100% cleanly from the energy in the wind.
http://www.hydrogenics.com/hydrogen-products-solutions/energy-storage-fueling-solutions/hydrogen-fueling-stations/
The real problem lies in getting at the materials used in the construction of electric vehicles in sufficient quantities.
And that includes hydrogen fuelled vehicles because of the materials in the fuel cell and the batteries.
Depreciation of vehicles is really a non-issue.
We just need to change our thinking about owning a personal vehicle.
Instead of owning, pay a rental and be without a care in the world about depreciation.
If I could lease a Toyota Mirai for a reasonable monthly fee I would have one.
Same goes for the Zero S bike.
Thanks for the info so far.
I'll probably be leasing so depreciation and long term reliability is not an issue.
If it means I can afford a brand new car with the performance of a hot hatch but with much lower fuel and servicing bills I'm happy.
I am under no illusion that mining a load of dangerous materials and shipping them all over the world to build a car in a factory the size of a small town is environmentally friendly.
If I were that bothered I would cycle everywhere and eat organic moss.
SV650rules
30-07-17, 12:26 PM
There are two Hydrogen production and refuelling facilities in Aberdeen.
No coal, gas or pollution in sight.
Hydrogen can be created 100% cleanly from the energy in the wind.
http://www.hydrogenics.com/hydrogen-products-solutions/energy-storage-fueling-solutions/hydrogen-fueling-stations/
.
Electrolysis is the most energy intensive way of getting hydrogen, just think how many uses that same electricity could be put to, including allowing an EV to do far more miles for the amount of power used.
Depreciation can never be a non-issue because user always pays, whether in increased lease cost or lower guaranteed value at end of lease. If money is draining away from a product every day it also reflects in the cost per mile calculation.
Chris_SVS
30-07-17, 03:25 PM
Northern Ireland can't have EV's en mass with the current generation capacity/interconnectors. More stations are closing in the next 10yrs than current plans to replant and replacec can cover.
Dave-the-rave
30-07-17, 04:09 PM
We're gonna go electric because the 'solution' has already been decided. Nuclear.
Blair passed a Bill to build five new reactors. Hinckley point is just the first.
France have around 58 reactors already.
garynortheast
30-07-17, 05:09 PM
but that will not bother the greenies as long as the tailpipe emissions are low.
You need to stop generalising. Just because some of us have some concern for the future of the planet doesn't make us all a bunch of uncritical dullards.
SV650rules
30-07-17, 06:23 PM
We're gonna go electric because the 'solution' has already been decided. Nuclear.
Blair passed a Bill to build five new reactors. Hinckley point is just the first.
France have around 58 reactors already.
Blair has not been in power since 2009, and what has happened since then - diddley squat, zero, zilch - not one single brick laid. Even if we start building now it will be minimum ten years till any nuclear juice available. No sign of the other 4 stations yet either.
The moral of this story is - if you do buy an electric car just pray that the wind blows steady and strong, otherwise when your car is charging the lights in your house may well go out, together with your TV, fridge etc.
These articles will make sobering reading for anyone who may think wind turbines are the answer, annual output of wind turbines is a small fraction of their rated capacity, and the presence of wind turbines on the grid, with their totally unreliable and wildly variable output is a big headache for the people who have to make sure power is available when and where it is needed. Just imagine the chaos if someone made us go back to wind power for moving ships around the globe - the reason we stopped using it for ships is because it is so damned unreliable.
https://www.wind-watch.org/faq-output.php
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/wind-turbines-are-neither-clean-nor-green-and-they-provide-zero-global-energy/
How much energy do wind turbines produce?
Every wind turbine has a range of wind speeds, typically around 30 to 55 mph, in which it will produce at its rated, or maximum, capacity. At slower wind speeds, the production falls off dramatically. If the wind speed decreases by half, power production decreases by a factor of eight. On average, therefore, wind turbines do not generate near their capacity. Industry estimates project an annual output of 30-40%, but real-world experience shows that annual outputs of 15-30% of capacity are more typical
Dave-the-rave
30-07-17, 09:06 PM
Never the less. The days of petrol and diesel for domestic use are numbered. Rightly or wrongly.
Red ones
30-07-17, 10:28 PM
I don't know what you are all worried about with cars. I got passed by a Zero DSR the other morning!!
Luckypants
31-07-17, 08:31 AM
Zoe battery lease @£69/month
That's more than I spend on diesel for my shonky Skoda!This!
We were in the market for a new small car last October (previous one written off) and looked at electric. The Renault Zoe ticked all the boxes of what we needed the car to do but buying the battery made the car ridiculously expensive and the battery lease option of £70 pcm is more than double the cost of the petrol we put in the little Skoda we bought instead. I didn't even look at the cost of depreciation, there was no need when the running costs were so high compared to a conventional petrol vehicle.
Having said that, I'm leasing my next main car as I think the game will change massively in the next few years. This is a way of hedging my bets as to whether EVs take off and become mainstream and not losing a bundle on a conventional car.
Chris_SVS
31-07-17, 08:31 AM
I don't know what you are all worried about with cars. I got passed by a Zero DSR the other morning!!
I've been looking at these with a view to maybe buying one :)
An electric bike would probably be the ideal solution, a shame they are so expensive and there are no dealers nearby
Luckypants
31-07-17, 09:51 AM
<snip>battery lease option of £70 pcm <snip>Another thing that put us off buying, based on the above. Come re-sale time in 10 years or so (second car is kept a long time as it does very few miles) the target buyers are likely to be young drivers looking for a first car or cheap second car for someone - both types of buyers are likely to be completely put off by the high cost of the battery lease.
Talking Heads
31-07-17, 10:08 AM
An electric bike would probably be the ideal solution, a shame they are so expensive and there are no dealers nearby
Some time ago I did a study into the overall costs of a Zero S and a Honda NC750S DCT.
Based on annual mileage of 10,000 miles, towards the end of year 3 the Zero S worked out the cheaper option.
Another thing that put us off buying, based on the above. Come re-sale time in 10 years or so (second car is kept a long time as it does very few miles) the target buyers are likely to be young drivers looking for a first car or cheap second car for someone - both types of buyers are likely to be completely put off by the high cost of the battery lease.
Buy a year old leaf without the battery lease .winner
What happens if you run out of charge? The range is currently quite limited so I can imagine this happening relatively frequently. You can't just walk/hike/get a taxi to the nearest petrol station and buy a plastic fuel can. You can't take the battery out of the car because it'll be too heavy. You can't carry charge.
So does the electric AA van get fitted with a huge heavy battery to charge you up or do they rely on something smaller and lighter like a fossil fuel powered generator?
Do electric vehicles have a neutral? Cos without a clutch, you might also come to a rapid stop in the middle of traffic.
SV650rules
31-07-17, 03:28 PM
What happens if you run out of charge? The range is currently quite limited so I can imagine this happening relatively frequently. You can't just walk/hike/get a taxi to the nearest petrol station and buy a plastic fuel can. You can't take the battery out of the car because it'll be too heavy. You can't carry charge.
So does the electric AA van get fitted with a huge heavy battery to charge you up or do they rely on something smaller and lighter like a fossil fuel powered generator?
Do electric vehicles have a neutral? Cos without a clutch, you might also come to a rapid stop in the middle of traffic.
All those are relevant questions, every electric vehicle test I have seen has mentioned something I have never thought about with an ICE vehicle, a new term has come into our language 'range anxiety' and one tester even came up with the term of 'rubber bucket' for an EV battery (you never really know how much is in it). A range of 300 miles at a steady 50 mph soon comes down to just over 200 miles at motorway speeds - never had that happen with an ICE vehicle, I know from looking at the fuel gauge just how much fuel I have left and how far it will take me, pretty much regardless of temperature (which affects battery capacity) or how fast I go (within reason). The fact that you can't just phone your mate to bring a can of petrol is worry - better get AA relay membership, I bet tow truck operators are rubbing their hands at the prospect of upsurge in future business. As batteries age their capacity drops, as they get hotter their capacity drops, on a cold day they don't want to release power................
And the cost is another thing, spend and extra 20 grand to save 5 grand on fuel and have the vehicle worth less than half what you paid for it after 12 to 18 months, no thanks.
I bet tow truck operators are rubbing their hands at the prospect of upsurge in future business.
Well there'll be a lot of fuel delivery HGV drivers to recruit.
What happens if you run out of charge? The range is currently quite limited so I can imagine this happening relatively frequently. You can't just walk/hike/get a taxi to the nearest petrol station and buy a plastic fuel can. You can't take the battery out of the car because it'll be too heavy. You can't carry charge.
So does the electric AA van get fitted with a huge heavy battery to charge you up or do they rely on something smaller and lighter like a fossil fuel powered generator?
Do electric vehicles have a neutral? Cos without a clutch, you might also come to a rapid stop in the middle of traffic.
Can only speak for the Nissan.
The nav will tell you how far you can go.if it's a longer trip it route to charge location s.
Fast charge from flat ie5%to 89% is 40 mins.
If you are unfortunate to run until the car goes flat then the RAC have a fast charge support just for Nissan customer service
timwilky
01-08-17, 06:21 AM
To me, Electric vehicles are just not practical. I currrntly own a small Citreon dispatch van that I use as a run around. Trips to builders merchants etc. A passat that gets used for those longer family days out/away and a peugeot C1 tht the wife uses. Add to that my son with a mondao and daughter with a kuga.
So. how about the weight carrying of the van. In goes wood, brick etc. It cost me a grand 4 years ago. What would econonically replace that. the passat does about 3000 a year. mostly on a couple of long trips of about 5-600 miles. ok the c1 is local use only and could be replaced. that cost 7000 1 year old. again economical replacement? The mondao carries the lads tools and goes everywhere so again load capacity especially with a few boxes of tiles/buckets of adhesive etc. The kuga is new. 17 plate and does about 130 miles a day. but she is also a scout leader. The car will need about 300 miles range. There is no charging parked up in the middle of nowhere whilst they camp.
but what about charging. 5 vehicles a time. FFS the kids buy their own fuel. how do they get their own electricity supply? What about my 500 mile trips. I fill up. do the trip and fill up when I return. Electric will only be practical when I can instant charge have the range etc.
So my prefered solution would still be hydrogen fuel cell. we have the potential for lots of excess electicity from renewables. use that to create hydrogen. I know not exactly efficient. But it is storable.
This now
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/hyundai/ix35-fuel-cell
Image what you are going to be able ( oil corporation allowing of course) in five years time...
Toyota can do it too
https://www.toyota.co.uk/new-cars/new-mirai/the-facts
SV650rules
01-08-17, 06:53 AM
we have the potential for lots of excess electicity from renewables.
For the above, substitute 'we have the potential for very little electricity from renewables which have cost (and continue to cost) taxpayers an awful lot of money in subsidies for very little in return'
Now that is nearer the truth............
(Hydrogen can also be made from certain bacteria / chlorophyll working digesting plant material under the right (closed tank in the dark) circumstances, but it would probably mean covering every bit of spare land with tanks that would make poly-tunnels look pretty.
The Honda Clarity fuel cell car was running around decades ago in limited quantities, I think infrastructure to supply explosive hydrogen at enormous pressures was the limiting factor.
Yes it's still a problem with about 15 hydrogen filling stations and a lot of them are closed to the public.
But then we do have till 2040 at the earliest to get it in place.
Not that's that's going to worry me.
If I'm still alive it's a Mobility Scooter for me .
punyXpress
01-08-17, 10:09 AM
Not leccy cars, but . .
Talking Heads
02-08-17, 12:17 AM
But then we do have till 2040 at the earliest to get it in place.
A lot of mis-reporting and hysteria about this story.
Here's what the Air Quality Plan actually says on the matter: "The government will end the sale of all new conventional petrol and diesel cars and vans by 2040."
So it looks from the word "conventional" that there is not to be a ban on petrol or diesel cars, just a ban on cars which are exclusively petrol or diesel.
Hybrids will still be allowed.
Another option is dual-fuel.
There are already dual-fuel Ford Transits which can burn hydrogen or petrol in their (supercharged) internal combustion engines.
So it looks from the word "conventional" that there is not to be a ban on petrol or diesel cars, just a ban on cars which are exclusively petrol or diesel.
It doesn't really matter about the finer points of the description. The point is that the government has decided that we're moving away from petrol and diesel. So it will become less and less available, and some other energy infrastructure will have to replace it, and the govt will probably just sit back and let the industry sort itself out.
This is an issue because petrol and diesel are currently ubiquitous. So I predict there will soon be several competing incompatible technologies created by different manufacturers, creating uncertainty and instability for many years until one finally wins out. And it's not necessarily the best one.
Betamax vehicles here we come.
It doesn't really matter about the finer points of the description. The point is that the government has decided that we're moving away from petrol and diesel. So it will become less and less available, and some other energy infrastructure will have to replace it, and the govt will probably just sit back and let the industry sort itself out.
This is an issue because petrol and diesel are currently ubiquitous. So I predict there will soon be several competing incompatible technologies created by different manufacturers, creating uncertainty and instability for many years until one finally wins out. And it's not necessarily the best one.
Betamax vehicles here we come.On the flip side we could end up with Blu-ray cars instead of HD-dvd
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I've worked in the engine design/development industry for 40yrs. The technical issues can be sorted, the technology is still very young but is progressing rapidly. 23yrs away is an awful long time.
Some foreign folk made statements (Volvo, Macron etc) so someone in Westminster thought they better come up with something.
The real problem we have, as in all aspects of life, is that politicians get involved in making sweeping decisions with little or no strategic planning behind it and absolutely no ability to implement tactical solutions. Look at their track record. Brexit, no-one will vote for that, Trump, no-one will vote for him, General Election to get the Tories a bigger majority, invoke Article 50 without the need for an Act of Parliament to authorise it, challenge the first Court's decision on that, introduce charges for industrial tribunals, etc. They come up with these sweeping idealistic statements knowing full well that they are totally meaningless.
Personally I won't lose any sleep over this half-baked press announcement, which is pure sound-bite. Never mind what might happen in 23yrs time, I'd rather a few politicians actually got their backsides in gear regarding Brexit, the most immediate and potentially disastrous issue concerning the UK at the moment. Just so many things to address, where do we start? As Barnier said, it would be very helpful if Davis et al knew what they actually want?
All we need is for an international EV charging standard to be established, and the UK decides on the three pin plug instead.
On the flip side we could end up with Blu-ray cars instead of HD-dvd
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Whichever format of cars support the porn industry is fine by me :smt026
Don't know if this is true but,a guy who said he worked on the Highways reckoned that in an accident they have to throw a chain into an electric vehicle to earth it before they emergency personnel will go anywhere near them
SV650rules
02-08-17, 11:35 AM
Brexit, the most immediate and potentially disastrous issue concerning the UK at the moment. Just so many things to address, where do we start? As Barnier said, it would be very helpful if Davis et al knew what they actually want?
.
It would have been nice if we knew where the Common market (good idea) was going when UK voted to join (they didn't actually, by the time Harold Wilson had a hasty referendum to legalise things, where the question was phrased 'do you want to REMAIN a member of CM we were already a member due to the fact that Ted Heath took us in illegally with a parliamentary vote, not a referendum as required a couple of years earlier).
It would be nice to know what Federal states of EU want, article 50 never been used before, was never expected to be used and apart from demanding eye watering sums of money with menaces to fund a club we will not be a member of soon. The truth is we both need each other, but the percentage of world trade EU handles is falling rapidly, so we need rest of world as well, without EU negotiating our trading terms with it.
Whichever format of cars support the porn industry is fine by me :smt026 [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
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Don't know if this is true but,a guy who said he worked on the Highways reckoned that in an accident they have to throw a chain into an electric vehicle to earth it before they emergency personnel will go anywhere near them
Lol just need marigolds and rubber boots
It would have been nice if we knew where the Common market (good idea) was going when UK voted to join (they didn't actually, .... stuff.
I wasn't being contentious on the decision, it's a done deal. We just need to have some confidence that it's being managed at least vaguely competently. We decided to leave, the EU are asking us what we want, they aren't leading the process, we are (or should be). I just want Davis etc to show us that they have a vague idea what they are doing and what it is that they are taking us into.
All of which is a mere sideshow compared to the critical issue of whether we will still be offered petrol/diesel cars in 2040.......... not.
Anything could happen before 2040, diesel/petrol/EV/hybrid is simply not something to spend any time debating at this point in time. I'd rather the politicians concentrate on matters in hand.
Just saying ..............
svrich_02
02-08-17, 01:19 PM
Hi, thought I join the discussion as I've got 2 electric cars, Zoe's. Yep we lease the batteries from Renault for £69 a month. For me and the my missus it suits what we need them for, we mainly charge our Zoe's at home once a week and that does me for dropping kids at school and getting to work and back, plus what ever I need to do over the weekends.
I'm getting roughly 110 to 115 miles from a single charge, which drops to around 80 in winter but then the batteries feel the cold.
I understand people's concerns on the lease being quite expensive but leasing does include breakdown, flat tyres etc and, yes, they'll pick you up if you run out of charge and take you to the nearest charging point. Also if the battery health drops to less than 70% they have to replace it.
The longest I've travelled was a 256 mile round trip to Richmond in Yorkshire, which used 4 (2 there and 2 back) motorway stops and cost me the grand total of £24.
Motorway charging isn't too bad, as they have the rapid chargers they can get you back up to nearly full in 30 minutes, so by the time you've stretched your legs and gone in for a drink it's nearly done. They've since changed their pricing structure so its a £3 connection fee and then 17p a unit. My last charge came to £4.80 to get me a full battery, so over 100 miles.
Running costs are small. 1st and 2nd services cost £82 each. The third is the expensive one LOL as they have to replace the 12V battery so comes in around £130.
We've not even noticed a massive hike in our home electric bills. Family of 4 with 2 electric cars and our monthly electric bill is £66 a month. We pay no vehicle tax and obviously no MOT as they're under 3 years old.
I know they're not for everyone and each situation is different but we did make savings switching to electric and must say enjoy having them.
Happy to answer any questions
Luckypants
02-08-17, 02:18 PM
Interesting that from someone with real world experience. As I stated previously, it was the battery lease cost put us off due to it being a fixed £69 cost, which is more than our petrol cost for the Citigo. £69 will buy me approx. 660 miles in the Citigo. For what you pay, you get 4x115 miles per month (one charge a week) = 460 miles for £69 (plus charging costs of 2p/mile?). It still seems like a poor bargain to me. Obviously doing more miles brings the per mile cost of the Zoe down, but these are not suitable as 12K a year cars right now so a little pointless to compare.
Can you explain if I got the maths wrong or if indeed it seems that cost per mile of the Zoe is still more than a modern small car of similar size / power?
svrich_02
02-08-17, 02:43 PM
Yeah that sounds about right. We swapped from a 02 Focus automatic, which took more than £70 a month in fuel for less miles. We did umm and arrh about going for a smaller engine/car but what we found was that due to the Zoe having no real engine and the fact the seats etc are pushed forward it feels like we had more space than the 5 door focus without sacrificing the boot space.
The zoe's boot can fit both the kids bikes in and a few other bits, granted they are children's bikes but I can also get the mother in laws wheel chair in when we take her out. Looking at other smaller cars we would be loosing that space.
The longest I've travelled was a 256 mile round trip to Richmond in Yorkshire, which used 4 (2 there and 2 back) motorway stops and cost me the grand total of £24.
yes but what did you spend on food/coffee while you waited.
this is where leccy cars fall down. people dont want to wait or cant. perfect government tool to boost retail sales.
so what we will get is massive charging parks in retail environments. the gov and retail sector must be rubbing their hands.
svrich_02
02-08-17, 02:58 PM
yes but what did you spend on food/coffee while you waited.
this is where leccy cars fall down. people dont want to wait or cant. perfect government tool to boost retail sales.
so what we will get is massive charging parks in retail environments. the gov and retail sector must be rubbing their hands.
Agreed, at the moment they're not for everyone. I'm not getting into the whole government plans etc, I'm just giving my experience of living with electric, which L3nny asked about in his first post
No one is forcing me to buy anything while I wait, I could just sit there or just stretch my legs. If I'm going on a long journey then I plan my stops. I knew what I was buying and knew the current restrictions in EV ownership.
Red ones
02-08-17, 05:50 PM
This type of thread irritates me. People love trying to solve an existing problem by tweaking the existing system.
100 years ago people were trying to solve a problem that in 15 years London was going to disappear under horse poo.
You hit the nail on the head with the betamax / Blu-ray analogy. Both will die. Streaming solves the problems inherent in both.
Why fix the car fuel problem? Cars will change being recognition and the government is already behind the curve. 2040? Volvo will make no cars that will be affected by 2020!
speaking of betamax and vhs give me an idea on how to solve the charging issue.
'cassette' exchange. you would pull up to a charging point stick your debit/credit card in the charging point would then read how full your battery cassette is at which point it will calculate how much it will take to charge to full state again and charge the card at which point an automated system will drop the battery cassette from under the car and stick a nice fully charged one in and off you go.
the problem with this.. every manufacturer of cars will have to adhere to a standard of the battery cassette.
speaking of betamax and vhs give me an idea on how to solve the charging issue.
'cassette' exchange. you would pull up to a charging point stick your debit/credit card in the charging point would then read how full your battery cassette is at which point it will calculate how much it will take to charge to full state again and charge the card at which point an automated system will drop the battery cassette from under the car and stick a nice fully charged one in and off you go.
the problem with this.. every manufacturer of cars will have to adhere to a standard of the battery cassette.Ideal, similar to calor gas tanks for BBQs.
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You hit the nail on the head with the betamax / Blu-ray analogy. Both will die. Streaming solves the problems inherent in both.
Yes, serious heavy investment should be made in to teleportation technology thus leaving fossil fuels to be used solely for Motorsport and trackdays.
Everyone wins
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Red ones
02-08-17, 06:47 PM
People generally vastly over estimate the impact of technology over the short term and then hugely under estimate on the long term.
He have all the constituents to resolve a lot of the current problems with the exception of political will to enable it.
Why own a car with the associated running costs, fuel, insurance, maintenance, depreciation? How much does that cost you? What do you have to earn to be able to pay that? How many hours do you have to work to pay for the thing that gets you to work to do a job you hate that you only do to pay for the car? What percentage of the day do you actually use the car?
Think of Uber with autonomous self charging cars. Think of video conferencing, hot desking, cloud storage. Think of internet shopping and delivery services.
It's this so very far from local employment, and life before the car? Think of a technologically advanced version of life many years ago?
Why own a car with the associated running costs, fuel, insurance, maintenance, depreciation? How much does that cost you? What do you have to earn to be able to pay that? How many hours do you have to work to pay for the thing that gets you to work to do a job you hate that you only do to pay for the car? What percentage of the day do you actually use the car?
Think of Uber with autonomous self charging cars. Think of video conferencing, hot desking, cloud storage. Think of internet shopping and delivery services.
that sounds like something out of trainspotting
The cost of that 256 mile trip is more than I expected. On a motorway run I'll get about 600 miles from a tank of diesel which costs about £65. I get half that economy on my commute which is normally done at a spirited pace though and I imagine home charging is a lot cheaper than a fast charge at a service station.
Thanks for the useful info. This thread was starting to go a bit awry.
svrich_02
03-08-17, 07:19 AM
The cost of that 256 mile trip is more than I expected. On a motorway run I'll get about 600 miles from a tank of diesel which costs about £65. I get half that economy on my commute which is normally done at a spirited pace though and I imagine home charging is a lot cheaper than a fast charge at a service station.
Thanks for the useful info. This thread was starting to go a bit awry.
No problem L3nny, it did used to be free but then Electric Highway decided to charge for a charge LOL. They have since changed this so its a £3 connection fee then 17p a unit so has dropped the price down. There are still plenty of free chargers about but these aren't rapids.
Most of my charging does take place at home with no increase to my monthly DD. The new Zoe's however do have better range now and although advertised as 250, in the real world people are getting around 180 to 200 miles from a charge.
Think of Uber with autonomous self charging cars.
Johnny Cabs, Total Recall?
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/35/59/d2/3559d2528c096301f32f9ac94d7e79ef.jpg
speaking of betamax and vhs give me an idea on how to solve the charging issue.
'cassette' exchange. you would pull up to a charging point stick your debit/credit card in the charging point would then read how full your battery cassette is at which point it will calculate how much it will take to charge to full state again and charge the card at which point an automated system will drop the battery cassette from under the car and stick a nice fully charged one in and off you go.
the problem with this.. every manufacturer of cars will have to adhere to a standard of the battery cassette.
When we did the leaf traing at Renault France. They where championing that idea
SV650rules
03-08-17, 04:55 PM
Trouble is with changing the whole battery, you may be swapping your almost new battery for one of indeterminate age and condition, which due to age has lost capacity (and reliability), and the person who 'gained' your new battery may decide they got a bargain of a new battery for the cost of a charge and will not swap it again and just charge it in the car. So in the end the 'swap' system may get left with all the old batteries.
Talking Heads
04-08-17, 11:54 AM
The cassette change system would work if the batteries were communal rather than individually owned.
You simply don't need to own a battery, you just pay for the charge it contains.
In fact you don't really need to own a vehicle, just hire it as and when you need it.
Sort of pay-as-you-go motoring.
SV650rules
04-08-17, 12:38 PM
The cassette change system would work if the batteries were communal rather than individually owned.
You simply don't need to own a battery, you just pay for the charge it contains.
In fact you don't really need to own a vehicle, just hire it as and when you need it.
Sort of pay-as-you-go motoring.
Even if the batteries were 'communally owned' there is still an advantage to having a newer battery will its full capacity still available, so (I am speaking for myself here) if I snagged an almost new battery in a 'swap' I would hang onto it. I believe electric cars display the 'battery capacity' after a charge (how much charge the battery accepted till it registered fully charged) as this efficiency decreases with age of battery.
This communal ownership and 'hire it when you need it' is flying in the face of human nature because for most people their car is one of their most valued possessions, (and having a car available 24/7 for your exclusive use one of the 'freedoms' of owning one), which they take pride in 'blinging up' and looking after. Also majority of people who live outside a major city need a vehicle to get to work and back - so between 7 to 8-30 am and 4-30 to 6-00 pm you are going to need literally millions of 'hire cars' which will get little or no use for the rest of the day. Communism didn't work, don't see why communal car / battery ownership will either.
This communal ownership and 'hire it when you need it' is flying in the face of human nature because for most people their car is one of their most valued possessions, which they take pride in 'blinging up' and looking after. Also majority of people who live outside a major city need a vehicle to get to work and back - so between 7 to 8-30 am and 4-30 to 6-00 pm you are going to need literally millions of 'hire cars' which will get little or no use for the rest of the day. Communism didn't work, don't see why communal car / battery ownership will either.
I disagree, I bet at least 50% of the population couldn't tell you the exact make, model and engine size of their car. In other countries I expect the rate to be even higher. They see driving as a chore, hence why they spend most of the time while behind the wheel instasnapping their mates.
Young people have been priced out of being able to insure a car.
In major cities, most young people just hail a taxi from their phone, even if they do that every day it's still cheaper than buying and running a brand new car. If they do get their own car, it's on a lease, so rented anyway.
For more people, cars are like white goods.
Car or bike geeks like us are the minority and a dying breed.
I bet at least 50% of the population couldn't tell you the exact make, model and engine size of their car.
.
So painfully accurate, I work in car insurance and it's not even funny how many people don't know the details of their cars.
Not helped by the fact that there are usually a minimum of 3 variants of each model, not incl fuel, doors or transmission.
Some of the bigger names, Audi, Merc and BMW have a mind boggling number of variations of each. E.g. 10 versions of a 318 or a c200 or a3
Also there are a number of car club schemes around, there's one in my town, has a few dedicated parking spots that are purely for their cars. Looked in to it as I only have the bike all the time. Not so great for my area as the availability and parking spots aren't great.
But in a bigger city I can imagine it works quite well.
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Anyways Solid State Batteries are the future!
Mean time a NEW Nissan Leaf has been seen
Looks like following the Micra redesign look.
http://cdn2.autoexpress.co.uk/sites/autoexpressuk/files/styles/gallery_adv/public/5/27/nissan-leaf-front-2excl_0_0.jpg?itok=_7JbqR7e
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/nissan/leaf/88345/nissan-leaf-to-get-sharp-new-look-and-range-boost-pictures#1
Just lurking here but wondering what is going to happen with motorcycles? I know they said about cars but will petrol powered bikes be affected? Are they planning on banning all internal combustion engines?
Just lurking here but wondering what is going to happen with motorcycles? I know they said about cars but will petrol powered bikes be affected? Are they planning on banning all internal combustion engines?
Its probably less of a concern as there's not meany 2 wheelers now!!!
Likely less in 20+ years time
But we have 'lecy bikes now,The car/truck tec will filter across to bikes too:smt048
SV650rules
05-08-17, 08:18 AM
No fun fitting an aftermarket can to a leccy bike - people will sell 'sound synthesizer' modules instead that you can plug in to change the sound LOL. some people will no doubt fit 100watt speakers to make their bike louder (whatever will happen to the 'a loud bike is a safe bike' motto then).
Wish they would change the wording on that 'zero emissions' (which is false advertising) label to 'zero emissions at the tailpipe but can't comment on what's happening further up the supply chain' - a bit wordy but true.
Chris_SVS
05-08-17, 08:47 AM
No fun fitting an aftermarket can to a leccy bike - people will sell 'sound synthesizer' modules instead that you can plug in to change the sound LOL. some people will no doubt fit 100watt speakers to make their bike louder (whatever will happen to the 'a loud bike is a safe bike' motto then).
Wish they would change the wording on that 'zero emissions' (which is false advertising) label to 'zero emissions at the tailpipe but can't comment on what's happening further up the supply chain' - a bit wordy but true.
There will be another u-turn. Diesels are great so everyone invests - oh no actually we need to ban them now after years of DPF's,additives and £ that just didn't work
punyXpress
05-08-17, 09:13 AM
Its probably less of a concern as there's not meany 2 wheelers now!!!
Likely less in 20+ years time
But we have 'lecy bikes now,The car/truck tec will filter across to bikes too:smt048
Possibly MORE bikes cos folks are already sick and tired of the excessively sanitised nanny state we now inhabit
Wouldn't fancy lugging a truck battery around though!
SV650rules
05-08-17, 10:59 AM
Possibly MORE bikes cos folks are already sick and tired of the excessively sanitised nanny state we now inhabit
You can bet all electric cars will be fitted with technology to enable 'big brother' to check where the vehicle is and how fast it is going - also to enable automatic payment of 'road pricing' charges (which will be introduced for sure because fuel duty is pretty hard to collect if people charging from home supply, and government will need to replace the revenue). In article below it suggests that because of electric vehicles VAT on energy may rise from present 5% to 20%, this means that because some people have electric vehicles we will all pay 15% more for our power, that is on top of the £150 pa increase government is proposing to bring in to fund unreliable 'renewables' LOL
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/26/treasury-tax-electric-cars-vat-fuel-duty
Tracking and road pricing will probably come in for all vehicles before 2040 anyway because governments do not like losing money streams and have proven themselves able to waste every penny they get, and to divert revenue collected from one source to pay for stuff not remotely connected to it (like VED and fuel tax not being used to repair our roads).
That's because your council tax pays for your road repairs
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Talking Heads
05-08-17, 12:11 PM
No fun fitting an aftermarket can to a leccy bike - people will sell 'sound synthesizer' modules instead that you can plug in to change the sound LOL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n17B_uFF4cA
Honda have announced they will bring an electric scooter to market next year and there are strong hints they will be moving into hybrid/electric bikes.
http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-news-new-bikes/honda-confirms-electric-cub-next-year
If Honda do something with a similar spec to the Zero S and fully supported by Honda's extensive dealer network there will be many more electric bikes on the road.
I reckon if Honda do electric bikes, other manufacturers will have to follow suit.
SV650rules
05-08-17, 12:39 PM
That's because your council tax pays for your road repairs
On average about 5% of council tax revenue is spent on roads, and 25% of fuel tax / VED income from central government is distributed to local councils etc. for road infrastructure - rest of money motorists pay directly is mixed with other revenues into central pot.
We all know what a state our roads are in, so whatever they are spending is obviously not enough. When government announces a £200 million pothole fund it is a drop in the ocean of the £30billion+ it collects directly from road users.
You can bet all electric cars will be fitted with technology to enable 'big brother' to check where the vehicle is and how fast it is going - also to enable automatic payment of 'road pricing' charges (which will be introduced for sure because fuel duty is pretty hard to collect if people charging from home supply, and government will need to replace the revenue). In article below it suggests that because of electric vehicles VAT on energy may rise from present 5% to 20%, this means that because some people have electric vehicles we will all pay 15% more for our power, that is on top of the £150 pa increase government is proposing to bring in to fund unreliable 'renewables' LOL
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/26/treasury-tax-electric-cars-vat-fuel-duty.
No point in monitoring the car's as you probably have a chip in you .
5mph over the limmit automatic deductions from your credits like the 5th element cab driver...
https://s3-eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/paneltex.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/electric-truck-paneltex-e1495559096291.jpg
Update on this, I took a Renault Zoe and a BMW i3 out over weekend.
Both were good cars, felt a bit heavy considering their small size. As expected the BMW felt a bit more solid and better put together.
Both drove really well, neither are what you'd call fast, but they are definitely faster to 50 than a petrol or diesel equivalent, after that they run out of ideas a little bit.
Hoping to get the i3 on an extended test drive next week.
Picked up an I3 with range extender on a week's loan yesterday and have done about 30 miles in it so far.
It drives surprisingly well, but then it's a 35k BMW so it bl00dy well should.
The instant torque pushes you back in your seat when floored at any speed up to about 70 and is addictive. Keep up a spirited driving style however and the range soon drops. I picked it up with a full battery and the range was showing 112 miles. 30 miles later is was showing 63 and I was driving a lot more carefully than I do in my 320D.
I decided to use a public charge point while at work and paid £2.50 for an hours charge, the range went up by 17 miles which is only about 50p cheaper than that distance would cost in the diesel.
I do have a card which allows me to use certain chargers in Central MK for free so I think I will stick to them in future. I could charge from home but that means a cable hanging out the window all night. Only question is what to do while car is charging, spend money in the shops I suppose?
My 320D returns about 35 mpg on the commute and 50mpg on the motorway and I tend to thrash it a bit more as it's my car.
At the moment it's not looking good for the electric car but I've got it a week and I have some long trips planned for the weekend so let's see what happens.
One thing I do really like about the I3 though is the 1 pedal driving, when you take your foot off the accelerator the regen kicks in a brakes for you, this will bring the car to a stop eventually and it's fun to see how far you can drive with 1 pedal. I am sure the novelty will wear off soon though.
(new) Tesla roadster:
0-60 mph 1.9 secs
0-100 mph 4.2 secs
Top speed 250+ mph
Range 600+ miles
Price $200,000 (base)
Wow! some serious performance:
https://jalopnik.com/surprise-theres-a-new-tesla-roadster-and-its-unbelieva-1820532533
SV650rules
17-11-17, 12:41 PM
(new) Tesla roadster:
0-60 mph 1.9 secs
0-100 mph 4.2 secs
Top speed 250+ mph
Range 600+ miles
Price $200,000 (base)
Wow! some serious performance:
https://jalopnik.com/surprise-theres-a-new-tesla-roadster-and-its-unbelieva-1820532533
You can bet the range is calculated at steady 50mph like all other BEV, and if you use the performance range drops dramatically, you may well find yourself calling a tow truck to get your car to a charging station LOL.
willster89
17-11-17, 02:55 PM
I've never tried riding an electric car but feel like it will be an integral part of our lives by 2025 (at latest). Came across another thing that driverless cars will probably entail - self-driving motor homes https://tranio.com/world/spotlight/self-driving-mobile-homes-how-driverless-cars-will-change-the-property-market_5354/. what do you think? to me if you work remotely and want to see a bit of the world it should be a great combo
Even if the real world range is only 300 miles for that Tesla, it's still impressive.
Update on the I3, I love driving it, it feels like it has way more power than it does because of the instant torque. It's comfortable and has some nice toys.
I've managed to work out how to use the charger at work but it's slow to charge, not an issue as I am here 9+ hours every day but I am gaining about 12 mils range per hour, I hear the charge rate gets slower the closer you get to 100%. I plugged it in at 07:50 this morning on 32%, it's been on all day and now is at 79%, 7 hours later.
I have a 122 mile trip planned for tomorrow so how it copes with that will make or break whether I buy something electric for my next car.
Have you tried the app on your phone for it?
This is what really intrigued me about the i3, remote start and pre warming etc.
When I was looking at them I came to the conclusion that even with the range extender I'd struggle to get to my sister's 90 miles away in one hit but that was pretty much at launch, not sure if they've improved the batteries since then like the model s' ?
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:smt023Nissan leaf is looking better.
The new one even looks like a real car.
The BMW looks like a Tonka toy.
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/-Eb-PIO1GYlCsIT900cqhmfV5Q8=/298x307:2905x1984/1200x675/filters:focal(561x958:1089x1486)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/56517689/18LEAF_13.1504612508.jpg
SV650rules
17-11-17, 04:02 PM
Yeah, the Nissan Leaf looks quite presentable now.
this is interesting ........
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_1004_charging_an_electric_vehicle
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/electric_vehicle_ev
These are interesting articles, to allow for battery degradation the batteries are oversized to start with but the depth of charge and discharge are limited, as the battery ages these limits are moved to account for loss of capacity, the owner therefore thinks the battery is not actually losing capacity as the range may not decrease much, but more of the battery is being bought into usage, downside is that this extra depth of usage degrades the battery more rapidly.
Have you tried the app on your phone for it?
This is what really intrigued me about the i3, remote start and pre warming etc.
When I was looking at them I came to the conclusion that even with the range extender I'd struggle to get to my sister's 90 miles away in one hit but that was pretty much at launch, not sure if they've improved the batteries since then like the model s' ?
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Yep, used the app on my phone, set the car to warm up before I got in the shower this morning, all the frost was gone 10 mins later when I got into the car. It doesn't turn on the heated rear window and mirrors though so still had to turn that on and wait, but they were cleared in 30 seconds.
90 miles would be easy, you wouldn't even touch the range extender unless you drive like a complete loon.
Yep, used the app on my phone, set the car to warm up before I got in the shower this morning, all the frost was gone 10 mins later when I got into the car. It doesn't turn on the heated rear window and mirrors though so still had to turn that on and wait, but they were cleared in 30 seconds.
90 miles would be easy, you wouldn't even touch the range extender unless you drive like a complete loon.Igood to know, also do you have a normal sat nav?
If so have you tried comparing the routes the normal nav gives v the in built? I read it builds the routes based on the most economical for the battery?
And not a loon as such, but I don't tend to hang about [emoji23]
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We have some 60+k leaf's that have lost very little range even then you can get the individual cells replaced.
They are just so reliable it's amazing.
Not sure if the new leaf will share any Renault Tec.
That's the only worry.
SV650rules
19-11-17, 09:01 PM
Problem with buying an BEV is that the depreciation is huge, so may be better to lease. It seems that the makers have not allowed for models to be retrofitted with larger batteries and as the tech improves cars with smaller batteries rapidly lose their value. Look at at second hand Leaf prices.
Problem with buying an BEV is that the depreciation is huge, so may be better to lease. It seems that the makers have not allowed for models to be retrofitted with larger batteries and as the tech improves cars with smaller batteries rapidly lose their value. Look at at second hand Leaf prices.
The old I3 can be retrofitted with the newer battery packs apparently, unfortunately UK dealers refuse to do it apparently.
Looks like the depreciation charges have pushed up the lease prices. An I3 is about 200 a month more than a diesel 1 series. About what I would pay on diesel
So the longer trips I had this weekend were a nightmare. It seems the infrastructure is a long way off where it needs to be. I will put a full write up tomorrow but as great as the I3 is, I won't be buying one just yet.
Very interesting vid on the cell/pack technology in use today and where we're heading
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7GR5fERXNY
Luckypants
20-11-17, 09:33 AM
Problem with buying an BEV is that the depreciation is huge, so may be better to lease.Our current plan is to lease our next car (probably diesel) as I expect EVs to make huge strides in the next few years and don't want to be left with a huge depreciation loos - although similar concerns seem to be pushing up lease prices.
When the time comes for replacement we will re-evaluate the electric option.
Luckypants
20-11-17, 09:34 AM
So the longer trips I had this weekend were a nightmare. It seems the infrastructure is a long way off where it needs to be. I will put a full write up tomorrow but as great as the I3 is, I won't be buying one just yet.Look forward to the full write up.
The discussions about the Tesla truck unit announced recvently have been interesting too. http://www.enginetechnologyinternational.com/news.php?NewsID=88394
There's a bit of a critique here http://driving.ca/tesla/auto-news/news/motor-mouth-the-inconvenient-truth-about-teslas-truck
I did a fag packet sum and I agree with the conclusion that a typical artic needs 1000kW.hr of energy for a 500ml range (based on typical fuel used and calorific value/efficiency etc). The batteries and their weight is one aspect, but the charging issue is mind boggling.
1000kW.hr or 1 megawatt.hr is huge energy. Even if you charged it over 8hrs, a truck park with say 80 vehicles would need 10megawatts of power, to put that into context a typical UK nuclear power station runs at 500MW. Basically truck parks will need power stations.
punyXpress
20-11-17, 01:04 PM
500 miles range sounds impressive in this septic isle, but in the States, which I assume the item relates to, it wouldn't get you into the next state :mad:
At the weekend the plan was, make sure the car had a full charge Saturday morning. Go from MK to the bike show at the NEC (58 miles) then head over to my mate's house on the oxfordshire/gloucestershire border near Chipping Norton (45 miles), stay at my mate's Saturday night. On Sunday morning drive to the Malverns to do some climbing, (44 miles) back to my mate's to drop him off (44 miles) then back home (46 miles) a total of 237 miles or in the 320d,less than half a tank.
The plan was to drive as I notmally would and try and complete the whole trip on electric power alone and not use the range extender.
In anticipation of the trip I knew I would need 100% charge so all day Friday at work, from 0800-1730 the car was connected to the charger.
The problem with the charger at work however is you can only set it to charge for 2 hours at a time then it needs to be re-started, it only requires a couple of clicks via a website to re-start but it's still a pain and when I am in the middle of something or in a meeting I can't restart the charge missing probably a total of 2 hours over the course of the day.
I plugged the car in with 20% battery left, at the end of the day it was on 85%.
The drive home is 11 miles but I thought I would stop off in central MK at Xscape where they have rapid chargers, grab a cheeky Nandos and alfter 45 mins or so head home.
Now if you've ever been to Xscape on a Friday evening you'll know it gets very busy and this Friday was no exception and all of the 3 rapid chargers were in use. While examining the rapid chargers I noticed you can use them for a maximum of 2 hours, not great if you're heading to the cinema or spending the evening in the bowling alley or ski slope, you'd have to go back out and move the car, not great if you have ski boots on!
Anyway, I found the next nearest charge point, about quarter of a mile away on the sat nav and headed there, when you're searching for a charge point in a busy car park, in the dark, you'll soon notice they are impossible to see and it's not like there are any signs directing you to them so it took a while to find. As part of the deal I get free charging at these particular chargers (polar network) however if I didn't I would have to get a card and pay an £8 a month standing charge then any electricity used on top which sounds a bit silly to me.
I plugged the car in and headed to Nandos, this was not a fast charger an estimated time of 2 hours to full was displayed! I couldn't bear to spend that much time in Nandos so popped into the Casino next door, this whole saving money thing isn't working out very well.
After an hour in the Casino I was £5 down so decided to head back to the car, it was at 100% and showing an electric range of 103 miles, yippee!!
I drove the 2.5 miles home in the most eco efficient way ever and it had actually increased to 110 when I got there. Great! Enough to last all of the way to the NEC then on to my mate's.
I get up Saturday morning bright and early and head onto the M1, I set the cruise control to 75 and all is well. However 10 miles later the range is now dropping a lot quicker than before. The range is now showing as 75 and I'm less than 10 miles in.
I reduce the cruise control to 65 but it still keeps dropping. With 10 miles to go to the NEC the range is now 45 miles, it's still early so I pull into the services to use their quick charger. Again, the location of the charger isn't immedietly obvious but I find it pretty easily and plug it in. In order to use this charger I need to download another app, create an account, register my details save my credit card number in order to kick off the charging. I am advised there is a £3 connection fee then a charge per kw/h. Whatever, I have invested too much time in this to just drive away so I start the charging expecting half a charge to take 20 mins but an expected time of 45 mins appear.
I head into the services and get a Subway, then a coffee, then have a poo. 40 mins have gone by and I'm getting bored so I head back tot he car and 20 miles have been added to to the range. Sat in the car I google slow charging problems ant it looks like the previous borrower of the car had disabled the fast charging option. I re-enable this and swear a lot but I'm bored waiting so I unplug the charger and carry on. Knowing there is no way I'll complete todays drive on electric alone and as there was no charging facilities at the NEC I use the "hold charge" feature of the range extender for the last 10 miles. I stick to 60 on the motorway but the electric range still goes down by a couple of miles.
I was planning on leaving he NEC around 5.30 pm I had to be at my mate's for 7 so I didn't want to charge on the way there, hence the top up before arriving however the bike show wasn't as exciting as I hoped so I left around 3.30, this gave me an extra hour to make the journey so I try and find a charger on the way. I see one near Solihull on the sat nav so pull off the motorway and enter a shopping complex, however I couldn't find it and didn't want to waste more range driving around so go back on the motorway. I put the hold charge back on the range extender and crawl along at 60, this time the electric range stays at a steady 40 so when I get off the motorway I turn it off. The extender had an 80 mile range with a full tank of petrol, but after about 30 miles with it on, it's now dropped to 45. I've still got the
extra hour before my mate gets home so I stop again at another charger 5 miles from his house, the only one around for miles, this requires another app from another company but my mobile phone decided to brick itself in the mean time so I can't download the app. I still have 20 miles left of range so I head to my mates and sit in the car outside his house waiting for him to get home. I drove slowly, knowing I had time to kill so still had 20 miles range when I arrived.
When he gets there we open his garage and, although I have been told not to, we use an extension cable to connect the mains charger for the car, charging starts and we head to the pub.
In the morning I get to the car and it's not charged at all, the extension lead had a breaker in it which tripped so it turns out there is a reason why they tell you not to use extension cables.I plug it directly into the socket after moving the car closer to the garage and this time it actually does charge.
Not being able to use the I3 for the day we take his diesel Mercedes, a good job as otherwise the day would have been a right off. His C220d is a similar price to the I3. It's more comfortable, better equipped and actually quieter when crusing above 60 and I'm thinking, this is a much better way to travel and half the reason I like the I3 is just because it's new and my 320d is 7 years old.
Arriving back to my mate's in the evening the I3 is fully charged and with a 103 mile range and a journey of less than half that I drive it like I stole it all the way home, curiously the range is still showing as 45 miles when I get home which was more than I expected seeing as I used no regen and floored it everywhere, I won every traffic light grand prix though, much to the frustration of a Passatt driver who couldn't believe it when he couldn't get close to me.
With enough charge to make it to work the next day I decide not to charge overnight and take it to work. It took about 3 hours to reach 100% today with the fast charging enabled, about a third of the time it took on Friday.
So most of the problems I had were caused by me, and I wouldn't get these issues again. If the car was set to fast charge and my mobile didn't die, I heeded the warnings about extension cable and I found a working charger at the place we left the car (it was in Ledbury, I've checked, there is a charger, but it's currently broken and anyway, I don't think I could have left the car ther for 10 hours) I would have been able to do the whole trip on electric power alone.
However the faffery and stress it caused me just isn't worth it, if I had 35k to spend on the I3 or the Merc, I'd have to go with the Merc every time, and when I can to sell in 2 years the Merc would be worth 25 and the I3 would be worth 15.
IF you just just do short trips in a city, IF have a second car and IF you can charge at home every night and IF it's a company car so your tax bill is less, then an electrc car makes sense however there are too many problems with the infrastructure at the moment to make it viable as your only car.
Instead of the government subsidising rich people's second or third cars with a £4500 grant, they should be investing this in the infrastructure, there needs to be a uniform connection and payment system so all you do is swipe your credit card and off you go. If the infrastructure improves, more cars will sell and the price of the cars will come down anyway.
Also I don't think anyone has thought of the problems that would arise i electric car sales doubled overnight. There would be queues for chargers everywhere with full cars sat at charge points while the owners are off on their jollies.
I've done about 250 miles in the I3 since I have had it, this would cost about £30 in diesel. If I estimate the cost of the charging at my mates to be around £3 the total I have spent is about £10 on electric so while it's cheaper, it's not cheap enough to make it worth the extra stress, you might like stress so this may not be an issue, you might not be an idiot like me so it won't be an issue. I don't like stress and I am an idiot however.
Anyway, this is just the ramblings of an idiot, your experiences will vary.
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