View Full Version : What is this and how do I make one...
Tamsen Cooper
09-08-17, 08:30 AM
So it is clear I have not had much luck with batteries lately! Anyway, when the Mazda MX-5 battery died, I had nothing useful, no jump starting cables etc etc. So I got the AA to give me a boost.
When he arrived we started talking motorbikes and how I had recently created a video around jump starting a bike from a car. He dug around in his van and pulled out this capacitor- he explained they use that on motorbikes they get called out to.
Now this looks pretty small to me, like, could stash it under the seat small, so I figured maybe it would be a good idea to make one up. I can see there is a capacitor, a fuse and some cables. That is all the info I have, can any of you out there share any more info, like how to charge it? Or any reasons why this might not be a good idea?
http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii566/tazimodo/IMG_1056.jpg
johnnyrod
09-08-17, 08:35 AM
Curious. All I can think is that it charges up from a nearly-dead battery and discharges quickly enough to turn the starter, which might be enough to fire it up. It's a big one alright!
Chris_SVS
09-08-17, 09:51 AM
If I understand electronics correctly, the capacitor will charge when connected to the battery terminals, but only to the voltage of the source.
It can then dump it's charge quick enough that the starter motor can turn. That one looks very crudely made, but it must do the job
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/aluminium-capacitors/5436628/
johnnyrod
09-08-17, 10:34 AM
You're mixing your units.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capeng.html
68000uF at 12V gives 5J of energy stored. Power is time-dependent so 5J in 1 second is 5W which isn't much, 5J in 1/1000th second is 5KW. Say it needs 20 amps=240W then you'd get all of 0.02 seconds at that power, if you could fit it all through those little wires. Might be onto something re. the ECU though.
the capacitor is only used as a buffer to safeguard the electrics of the bike. there is no way you can jump anything with a capacitor. yes big capacitors will give you a nasty shock but thats about it.
Look on YouTube
There's guy's in the USA who run cars on these in banks
https://youtu.be/gzaLF5tFf88
Look on YouTube
There's guy's in the USA who run cars on these in banks
https://youtu.be/gzaLF5tFf88
just because you can does not mean you should ;)
large caps like those are expensive then add in the circuit board etc.etc and its not cheep but does make for interesting bragging rites :rolleyes:
a small cap like Tamsen has shown has about as much luck starting a bike as finding rocking horse poo.
Looking forward to solid state battery s ..
just because you can does not mean you should ;)
large caps like those are expensive then add in the circuit board etc.etc and its not cheep but does make for interesting bragging rites :rolleyes:
a small cap like Tamsen has shown has about as much luck starting a bike as finding rocking horse poo.
I bet you used to charge up a condenser and chuck them to do unsuspecting persons lol....
Tamsen Cooper
09-08-17, 04:22 PM
After giving it more thought - if the battery didn't have quite enough power to crank the bike or it had an ECU that won't allow cranking below a certain voltage (as in some Triumphs) then the cap in the picture might work. Would it start a bike with a flat battery? No (imho).
Thank you to all for the replies, I think this makes the most sense, if you are out and about/ roadside, it would be unlikely you would have a completely flat battery, and this could dump enough power to get it started maybe?
The AA guy stated he had used it on motorbikes on call outs.
I have looked on youtube and all the videos on there seem to be looking to replace the battery with capacitors, rather than using one to jump start the bike... Maybe I should just build one and see what happens....
maybe you should save your money and learn how to bump start a bike instead. if your battery has gone flat then you have either left your side lights on or your battery/charging system is fubar. if the battery has gone flat due to leaving your lights on then a bump start should get it going again, if its the battery/charging system then jump starting it from a capacitor or even a battery is not going to get it going.
SV650rules
09-08-17, 05:27 PM
That capacitor would never start a bike but may have been used a a smoother on vehicle electricity circuit to take any ripples out. A bank of them may start a bike but it would need a few that size connected in parallel - that blue fuse looks like a 60 amp 'maxi-fuse (blue).
If a bike has a duff battery it may run if you put a capacitor in to replace battery and bump start it.
see last post on this forum http://www.caferacer.net/forum/technical/20241-how-run-no-battery-any-motorcycle-only-vintage-motorcycle.html
As apprentices we used to charge up higher voltage capacitors with a 'megger' insulation tester and chuck them to someone.
Tamsen Cooper
09-08-17, 08:27 PM
maybe you should save your money and learn how to bump start a bike instead
lol! jump starting a bike is not my speciality. So far I have been pushed round my work car park (unsuccessfully) and used a car battery and jump cables.
I keep meaning to find a big hill and keep practicing until I get it, just have not got round to doing that yet and was intrigued as to what the device was. I have a couple of times turned the ignition off one click too far and put the parking lights on, come back and there is just not quite enough juice to start it.
I have seen those commercial battery pack that can jump start a car/bike but this home made one looked like a bit of fun to make!
johnnyrod
09-08-17, 08:42 PM
Some people can run alongside the bike then jump on sidesaddle and bump start it, but being an uncoordinated tool I'm pretty sure it'd be all bump and no start if I tried it. I had an old piece of junk at uni, bumped it God knows how many times, mainly by being pushed and using 3rd gear.
R1ffR4ff
12-08-17, 05:51 PM
You are treating a symptom and not a cause.
If you are using up batteries there's something wrong with the charging system.The workshop manual has checks for the Stator and the Regulator/Rectifier.
In a previous post I pointed to these Power Boost Jump Starters,
https://www.amazon.co.uk/DBPOWER-8000mAh-Portable-Emergency-Flashlight/dp/B01N9P36P6/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1502560246&sr=8-4&keywords=db+power+jump+starter
I have a pal who has one and they work.
andy650
12-08-17, 07:09 PM
The curvy SV reg/rec is known to be rubbish. It is old tech and gets no cooling, a recipe for disaster.
I replaced mine with a MOSFET unit, far better without doubt.
The SV is a very hard bike to bump start, only attempt with someone else pushing, even then you will struggle.
I doubt you could bump start if the battery is completely flat. It happened to me and there wasn't enough juice to get the fuel pump to prime. No fuel, no start.
punyXpress
13-08-17, 08:39 AM
Curvy doesn't have a pump?
Chris_SVS
13-08-17, 08:47 AM
Curvy doesn't have a pump?
K3 does
SV650rules
13-08-17, 08:48 AM
Some people can run alongside the bike then jump on sidesaddle and bump start it, but being an uncoordinated tool I'm pretty sure it'd be all bump and no start if I tried it. I had an old piece of junk at uni, bumped it God knows how many times, mainly by being pushed and using 3rd gear.
Bump starting on your own is normally a recipe for dropping the bike, because unless your weight is on the saddle the back wheel will probably skid, and getting your weight onto the saddle is the hard part as it isn't nice and level to the floor like older bikes. Also once it is started (if) need to watch the clutch and and get it out of gear otherwise it can try to take off with you.
R1ffR4ff
13-08-17, 06:27 PM
The curvy SV reg/rec is known to be rubbish. It is old tech and gets no cooling, a recipe for disaster.
I replaced mine with a MOSFET unit, far better without doubt.
The SV is a very hard bike to bump start, only attempt with someone else pushing, even then you will struggle.
There is nothing wrong with the Stock Curvy R/Rs.Mine is stock and in it's 19th year.I have a stock R/R on a Honda CX500 that is now in it's 38th year.
As for ,"Old Technology" Mosfets were invented in 1959 #-o
R1ffR4ff
13-08-17, 06:29 PM
K3 does
Curvy doesn't have a pump?
The Curvy has a Vacuum operated/assisted pump and is driven from the rear cylinder carb balance spigot or at least my 1999 does :p
Chris_SVS
13-08-17, 06:49 PM
http://i.imgur.com/4svt227l.jpg
andy650
13-08-17, 07:50 PM
There is nothing wrong with the Stock Curvy R/Rs
Many curvy owners would disagree with that statement. You have been lucky.
The biggest problem is lack of cooling, there is nothing wrong with the old style RR's, apart from the heat they produce. MOSFET runs cooler, hence the lack of cooling on the SV is less of a problem.
Maybe MOSFETs were invented in 1959, but they have only become common on bikes in recent years to my knowledge, presumably as the costs fell?
I went through 3 standard RR's, then I gave up and went MOSFET.
I have non MOSFET RR's on all my other bikes, none have ever caused a problem, but they are all cooled far better than than SV RR.
R1ffR4ff
13-08-17, 07:56 PM
Many curvy owners would disagree with that statement. You have been lucky.
The biggest problem is lack of cooling, there is nothing wrong with the old style RR's, apart from the heat they produce. MOSFET runs cooler, hence the lack of cooling on the SV is less of a problem.
Maybe MOSFETs were invented in 1959, but they have only become common on bikes in recent years to my knowledge, presumably as the costs fell?
I went through 3 standard RR's, then I gave up and went MOSFET.
I have non MOSFET RR's on all my other bikes, none have ever caused a problem, but they are all cooled far better than than SV RR.
I've not been lucky.I've been vigilant and as for,"Many" that may mean many have been misled and reading complaints/failures from the Internet is not a valid,"Real world" testament as there are countless hundreds of thousands on Motorcycles using stand R/Rs with no problems including Curvy SV650s.You rarely see a post saying,"My R/R is working perfectly ;-)
I don't disagree that the Mosfet design is superior and if some one has had problems it may well be a cure but it by no means a common problem IMHO just a commonly,"Highlighted" one.
andy650
13-08-17, 08:10 PM
How can you be vigilant with a RR? It either works properly or it doesn't, and you cant do anything to service it.
When my third one failed, I bypassed all wiring back to battery, and spent the extra £30 or so on the cooler running RR to be sure. It charges to 14.3 on the nail all the time, the old one (with old wiring) was never so perfect, even when new.
Calm down.
It all came about because of the Mazda MX-5 .
Not repeated faults on the curvy....
johnnyrod
15-08-17, 08:43 AM
Many curvy owners would disagree with that statement. You have been lucky.
...
I went through 3 standard RR's, then I gave up and went MOSFET.
...
2 for me (including one that ruined a holiday with the ladz) then I bought an Electrex MOSFET one. Unlike the 1970s there's no guarantee the Suzuki one will give up, but it's by no means indestructible. My SV is also 1999 so has had plenty of years for stuff to wear out or pack up.
R1ffR4ff
15-08-17, 10:51 AM
How can you be vigilant with a RR? It either works properly or it doesn't, and you cant do anything to service it.
You are correct in that as a solid state unit they are unserviceable however the connectors leading to them are.
Electronic devices are not,"Pass/Fail" devices.They can partially fail just like electromechanical and mechanical devices.
In the case of the Regulator/Rectifiers components inside can degrade overtime leading to on the Regulator side an increase in Voltage at the battery to a point where it ruins the battery.
On the Rectifier side any one of the Diamond formation diodes can partially fail and cause AC current through to the battery.This again will destroy a DC battery.
The most common cause of these failures is lack of maintenance of the Electrical connectors,especially the larger one that carries the three Yellow HT wires.
There is a lot of current passed through this connector and if the pins and sockets start to corrode the resistance at that point will increase.This will normally lead to other parts of the charging system trying to compensate and work harder to a point where they are taken out-of-spec.The increased resistance also has been known to melt the large connector and then the Stator HT wires short and the high current from the Stator feeds back on itself and burns out the coils.
There's plenty of pictures and posts on the net when this has happened and it's not nice and potentially lethal in the case of an Automotive fire.
http://i.imgur.com/HkKk3pW.jpg
Whatever unit you use please make sure that the Large connector pins and sockets are free of corrosion and electrically and physically secure.I use ACF50
http://www.acf-50.co.uk/motorcycle.htm
on ALL my electrical connections and for good measure if you ride a lot in the rain you can also double secure using Dielectric grease around the connector.
https://tinyurl.com/y9m3l4xk
SV650rules
15-08-17, 05:27 PM
RiffR4ff is spot on, if you don't look after the RR connectors and they get corroded you would be surprised how much heat can be produced by the high resistance - this is heat produced OUTSIDE the RR but conducted inside the RR through the connector, the heatsink on the RR has to try to get rid of it, something it was not designed to do - so the RR gets much hotter than it should and the heat causes thermal runaway in the diodes - meltdown.
Gold plated connectors are actually higher resistance than silver or nickel ones initially, but because the gold does not oxidize the connections maintain a stable resistance throughout their life, whereas other platings oxidize and increase in resistance, and it is a vicious circle, the hotter they get the more they oxidize, the more they oxidize the hotter they get...................................
If you can seal the connectors from oxygen and water (water is a source of oxygen) you should not have a problem. Petroleum free silicone grease (rubber friendly) is good, ACF-50 also OK.
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