View Full Version : Catalonia
declares independence.. discuss
maviczap
27-10-17, 08:18 PM
I've always liked that Cerys Matthews
munkygunn182
27-10-17, 08:25 PM
Power to them. They came, they discussed, they done. If folk didn't want it, they should have put their mark in the box, illegitimate referendum or not.
SV650rules
27-10-17, 08:36 PM
May quieten Spain about Gibraltar while they are having this crisis. Another thing for EU to worry about. Send in the Junkers to sort them out, he will drink them into submission, Catalonia need to talk about the divorce bill before discussing independence.
Idealists vs realists.
Kind of rings a bell.
These things always end in tears.
SV650rules
28-10-17, 03:47 PM
With 7.5 million people, 25% of Spanish industry and producing about 20% of Spanish GDP Catalonia is crucial to Spain, especially when British tourism starts to dry up in southern parts of Spain as a result of lower value of £ and possible travel restriction after the 'B' event in 2019.
Catalonia has the clout to go it alone, unlike some other wannabee independent colonies LOL.
Biker Biggles
28-10-17, 04:18 PM
Idealists vs realists.
Kind of rings a bell.
These things always end in tears.
:cry:
Sad but true.
Lots of silly men waving their willys about and pretending to have simple answers to complex questions.
It does ring a bell doesnt it?
Sir Trev
28-10-17, 07:45 PM
Don't want to worry any of you but since Madrid said no it seems the Catalans have decided to declare Piccadilly Circus independent instead...
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4481/37964934302_8dd2d4c4fc_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ZQQdhN)Catalonia annexes Eros (https://flic.kr/p/ZQQdhN) by Trevor Laight (https://www.flickr.com/photos/116210840@N03/), on Flickr
Littlepeahead
29-10-17, 06:22 AM
Canvey Island is also considering taking the same action.
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
keith_d
29-10-17, 07:33 AM
I'm waiting to see what Madrid does if the promised fresh elections give a majority to the independence party. There are some interesting possibilities:
Big majority for remainers - independence party disputes results (I would see this as rather suspect too) and it all descends into a decade of political strife.
Small majority for remainers - great news for Madrid, politically this is their ideal result and it could happen.
Small majority for independence party - IMO the most likely result. Not a great basis for pushing on with independence, but Madrid can 'compromise' and devolve a few more powers to the region or make a fight of it claiming that it's looking after the interests of the other forty-something percent of the population.
Big majority for independence party - much more likely after heavy handed police actions. This is the real kicker, what does Madrid do if the Catalans re-elect Puigdemont with a clear mandate??
If I were a wily Spanish politician I'd be preparing to discuss the details of independence, with a view to tying them up in at least a decade of negotiations...
Just my thoughts,
Keith
keith_d
29-10-17, 07:37 AM
Oh, and in the case of Canvey can we a vote on casting them adrift??
A new moat will have to be dug from the Essex side because any equipment left on the Canvey side would probably 'wander'.
SV650rules
29-10-17, 08:04 AM
Don't want to worry any of you but since Madrid said no it seems the Catalans have decided to declare Piccadilly Circus independent instead...
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4481/37964934302_8dd2d4c4fc_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ZQQdhN)Catalonia annexes Eros (https://flic.kr/p/ZQQdhN) by Trevor Laight (https://www.flickr.com/photos/116210840@N03/), on Flickr
Shocking the number of demonstrations that happen in London for problems that are happening many miles away. Don't mind if they are peaceful but when they involve damage to property or injury to our Police it makes you want to put the demonstrators (independence for Bangladesh, independence for Catalonia, human rights in China etc. etc. etc. ) on planes and send them to Bangladesh, Catalonia, China so that they can demonstrate 'properly' LOL and see how tolerant the governments they are protesting against are................
Red ones
29-10-17, 09:20 AM
If Catalonia gets independence does that mean it becomes a sovereign state? If it becomes a sovereign state does that mean it's no longer within the EU?
Is this Cataexit with no deal? No trade arrangements? No subsidies?
Good luck.
If Catalonia gets independence does that mean it becomes a sovereign state? If it becomes a sovereign state does that mean it's no longer within the EU?
Is this Cataexit with no deal? No trade arrangements? No subsidies?
Good luck.
Yes, exactly the same as if Scotland became independent. Also, what currency.
As mentioned by someone in Catalonia they will have independence for 3 days��
Not much happening in Barca yesterday luckily in the tourist areas. Plenty of Si an Catalan flags every where.
keith_d
29-10-17, 07:50 PM
As mentioned by someone in Catalonia they will have independence for 3 days��
Only if it's a bank holiday weekend.
Madrid signed a decree removing their autonomy within hours of the independence declaration this time around.
If Catalonia gets independence does that mean it becomes a sovereign state? If it becomes a sovereign state does that mean it's no longer within the EU?
Is this Cataexit with no deal? No trade arrangements? No subsidies?
Good luck.
yes they become a sovereign state. yes they have to leave the EU but can apply to become a member in their own right.
the newly formed country will have to make their own trade agreements or amend the ones they have with trade partners. no biggie as most trade is by way of supply/demand.
Yes, exactly the same as if Scotland became independent. Also, what currency.
which ever currency they choose and its worth is mostly linked to their GDP amongst other things.
as for Scotland.. well Scotland does not have a currency so any would be better than none. by law Scotland still works on the barter system and has NO legal tender of any kind and that includes the BOE £. every pound the people in Scotland have in their bank account is not worth anything. for every note printed in Scotland the same is held by the BOE as a deposit for the issuing bank, basically for a Scottish bank to print a note/coin it has to give the BOE its worth to be held as security, a bit like an IOU which is basically what money is. if a Scottish bank goes under the BOE must exchange issued Scottish bank notes for every note printed by issuing bank. due to the notes being BOE they are only worth their face value in England as Scotland does not have any legal tender... do you now see the answer to the age old question about what currency will Scotland use if they go intendant. no. well it will use which ever one it decides to use as Scotland does not have one in the first place and any new currency will be linked to the GDP of Scotland and issued notes/coinage will be secured by that Scottish bank/GOV and the country's GDP just like the BOE for England or the $ for the USA etc.etc
i dont see the problem with any part of a country wanting to go independent if it chooses regardless of its worth. after all, we employ politicians to make decisions for us. if you dont agree with a party's policy's then dont vote for that party.. simples.. if you do then you agree to abide by their decisions. political party's are voted in by majority so we have to abide by the majority whether we like it or not. problems arise where you have a country made up of states/country's like the UK, Spain the USA etc.etc where each state/country within has its own governing body and that governing body decides that its better for its people to leave the partnership. the only way to stop this is to do away with each state/country and create a single country with one law currency, GOV etc.etc which should have been done in the UK when it was first created.
littleoldman2
30-10-17, 01:29 AM
create a single country with one law currency, GOV etc.etc which should have been done in the UK when it was first created.
The only problem with that is that when these countries like the UK was "created" parts of the whole did not want the union. A lot of this is of course down to wealth and greed as Johnson said at the time of the UK union "Why would a prince want to marry a pauper ".
Johnson said at the time of the UK union "Why would a prince want to marry a pauper ".
land rights decided by a few greedy politicians in the pockets of Westminster. just look what happened to the highlands and islands after the act of union. all Scottish soil became property of the crown along with its people. evicted by force and slaughtered all in the name of union. or have i got my dates wrong.
yes Scotland was pretty much bankrupt by making a bad financial decision but what country's hadn't back then, Tulips sound familiar?
enough of Scotland problems and more on Catalonia ;)
The thing is, just like Brexit, no-one actually goes into all the details of what independence really means before whipping up enthusiasm amongst the masses. Basically if you tell people what they want to hear, they will vote for you (Trump anyone?).
I voted remain, not because I have any particular affection for the EU per se, or think that they are doing a particularly good job, but principally because there was no plan nor any indication of how it was all going to be worked outside the EU (borders/visas, rules and regulations, trade deals etc). A lot of wishful thinking and hyperbole, but no detail at all, and that's where the devil is. Even now the EU negotiators are asking what it is we really want, and our negotiators are saying the EU is being obstructive. Catalonia would find the same. If I were them, I'd wait 5 or 10yrs and see how the UK gets on having left the EU before they start thinking of leaving Spain&EU.
I have a friend/acquaintance who lives in Fife and is/was strongly in favour of Scottish independence. After the referendum vote to remain in the UK, I said to him the big mistake the pro-independence side made was restricting the vote to Scottish residents only. Had they opened the vote to all UK residents they would have won easily. He wasn't quite sure how to take that.
Talking Heads
30-10-17, 07:25 PM
Had they opened the vote to all UK residents they would have won easily. He wasn't quite sure how to take that.
Yep, there are vocal types in Englandshire who would have you believe that Scotland is a subsidy junkie.
But at the same time Westminster do their damndest to keep a hold of Scotland.
Wonder why that is...?
littleoldman2
30-10-17, 08:10 PM
Yep, there are vocal types in Englandshire who would have you believe that Scotland is a subsidy junkie.
But at the same time Westminster do their damndest to keep a hold of Scotland.
Wonder why that is...?
I'm sure many soft southern shandy drinkers ;) feel the same about all of the north of the UK. You have to remember the REAL news does not matter all people prefer affirmation over information everytime.
Those who know me, know just how much I love Scotland and I don't want a separation. I was with 8 English people having breakfast in an Austrian hotel, the morning after the referendum. The owner of the hotel said "for those who are interested, yesterday the Scots voted to stay" everyone except me growned.
I know very little about Catalonia as I've only visited Barcelona twice. But it is obvious that a large proportion of the population is Spanish rather than Catalan. I hope it doesn't end in to much unpleasantness.
Yep, there are vocal types in Englandshire who would have you believe that Scotland is a subsidy junkie.
But at the same time Westminster do their damndest to keep a hold of Scotland.
Wonder why that is...?
I'm not sure it's the subsidy junkie theory, rather it's just that when a member nation where nearly half the voters want to leave the union and get all stroppy about it, it tends to wind people up in the rest of the union nations, if they want to leave then crack on. Don't blame the Englandshire dwellers, they didn't start it (other than 300yrs ago). Personally I'm glad Scotland didn't break up the union, and the majority of Scots voters thought the same apparently, so we're all in agreement there.
Talking Heads
01-11-17, 10:37 AM
the majority of Scots voters thought the same apparently, so we're all in agreement there.
Fact check...
Only 2,001,926 out of 4,283,392 registered voters voted No.
Like Brexit, the No vote was won on a raft of false promises.
Luckypants
01-11-17, 10:48 AM
Fact check...
Only 2,001,926 out of 4,283,392 registered voters voted No.
Like Brexit, the No vote was won on a raft of false promises.
"Fact Check"
2,001,926 voted no (55.3%)
1,617,989 voted yes (44.7%)
3429 Spoilt papers (0.09%)
3,623,344 voted (84.59% of the electorate) of your 4,283,392 registered voters.
The majority of Scots who voted, voted no.
SV650rules
01-11-17, 11:07 AM
Fact check...
Only 2,001,926 out of 4,283,392 registered voters voted No.
Like Brexit, the No vote was won on a raft of false promises.
I knew we would get around to Brexit eventually.......................................
If people cannot be ar3ed to vote, tough - they cannot complain about the outcome.
In run-up to Brexit there was 'project fear' on the remain side to counteract 'project false promises' on the leave side, probably same happened in Scotland.
Don't kid yourself that the £350M a week for NHS convinced anyone, they knew that 'status quo' is never an option with EU grand federal superstate and we were being sucked further and further in - centralised tax cards, and european army plus distinct possibility of Turkey being allowed in as part of the latest EU land grab (after they got a bloody nose from Putin over Ukraine LOL). In the end it was loss of our laws and borders that tipped the balance, uncontrolled immigration and free movement of north african / middle east 'refugees' clinched it for most people. Not many people realise that the UK was taken into common market (EEC) illegally by Edward Heath - against our laws forbidding the 'handing over of control to any foreign power' and without a referendum, Harold Wilson came to power and organised as hasty referendum to put things on a 'legal' basis, but the question was 'should UK remain a member of the common market', and many times since the EU has dodged triggering referendums in member countries by dressing up large changes as 'minor treaty tweaks' - and our politicians bless them have gone along with the ploy (including Maggie T).
"Fact Check"
2,001,926 voted no (55.3%)
1,617,989 voted yes (44.7%)
3429 Spoilt papers (0.09%)
3,623,344 voted (84.59% of the electorate) of your 4,283,392 registered voters.
The majority of Scots who voted, voted no.
+100
This article explains a lot............
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/what-explains-the-idiocy-of-the-liberal-elite-its-their-education/
People get fed up after a while seeing big brother getting bigger and stronger while little brother keeps getting a good hiding but receives 3 meals a day
Talking Heads
01-11-17, 10:31 PM
"Fact Check"
2,001,926 voted no (55.3%)
1,617,989 voted yes (44.7%)
3429 Spoilt papers (0.09%)
3,623,344 voted (84.59% of the electorate) of your 4,283,392 registered voters.
The majority of Scots who voted, voted no.
I like my fact better! :lol:
I used the word "voters" rather than "electorate" for a good reason.
Talking Heads
02-11-17, 10:19 AM
I used the word "voters" rather than "electorate" for a good reason.
As did I when I wrote "registered voters"
(which is a smaller number than the total number of people eligible to vote)
keith_d
02-11-17, 01:43 PM
Like Brexit, the No vote was won on a raft of false promises.
All of three independence votes (Scotland, Brexit, and Catalonia) had the same major deficiency - no real facts about what would happen after the vote. Both sides just made assumptions which suited their position, without any basis in fact, then tried to convince voters to buy into their fiction with an emotive appeal.
Unfortunately, that seems to be the nature of politics at the moment. Too much showbiz and not enough analysis.
bit off topic...
why do we have political parties? would it not be better to have constituency candidates who people vote for and the winners make up the Gov. same goes for all the leading positions like the chancellor and the prime minister.
SV650rules
02-11-17, 02:09 PM
Australia fines people who don't vote. They also have preference system where you vote for your preferred candidate, but also vote for your second preferred candidate and maybe third preference as well. If nobodies first preference gets a majority then the candidate with least votes gets eliminated and the second preference of the people who voted for failed candidate is added up and so on until someone gets over 50% of votes.
It does mean that candidate who wins had over 50% of people's votes, even if they were second or third preference votes.
keith_d
03-11-17, 08:56 AM
Australia fines people who don't vote.
I'd be happy with that idea providing there was a box on the ballot paper that said, "I wouldn't trust any of these tosspots to organise a party in a brewery"
keith_d
03-11-17, 09:06 AM
bit off topic...
why do we have political parties? would it not be better to have constituency candidates who people vote for and the winners make up the Gov. same goes for all the leading positions like the chancellor and the prime minister.
With one or two exceptions, independent candidates regularly get stuffed by the organised parties.
Labour and Conservatives can turn up in marginal consistencies with a battle bus stuffed with well known MPs to push their message, spend thousands on TV and poster campaigns, and have their activists knocking on doors. There's not much an independent candidate can do to compete with them.
Can anyone explain what the actual point was?
Ok they held a referendum and declared independence. Now they have direct rule from Madrid, the autonomy is suspended, the people that were running Catalonia are accused of rebellion.
They gained nothing and lost, well, almost everything. Sounds like a sh!t deal.
SV650rules
03-11-17, 10:54 AM
Can anyone explain what the actual point was?
Ok they held a referendum and declared independence. Now they have direct rule from Madrid, the autonomy is suspended, the people that were running Catalonia are accused of rebellion.
They gained nothing and lost, well, almost everything. Sounds like a sh!t deal.
For direct rule from Madrid read 'direct rule from Brussels', the great and good leaders in EU have instructed Madrid every step of the way, they don't want any other regions / countries getting ideas about messing with EU 1000 year masterplan for a European federal superstate without borders and devoid of any national identity, like putting all the separate countries into a blender and ending up with a bland homogeneous gloop that does not taste of anything.
So what was the plan? Hold a (illegal/not binding) referendum with a 40% turn out and hope Madrid/EU will say "ok, on you go on your own"?
So what was the plan? Hold a (illegal/not binding) referendum with a 40% turn out and hope Madrid/EU will say "ok, on you go on your own"?
Probably justification for any further steps they might decide to make.
ie "we tried it the peaceful way and you didn't listen"
chris8886
03-11-17, 02:00 PM
bit off topic...
why do we have political parties? would it not be better to have constituency candidates who people vote for and the winners make up the Gov. same goes for all the leading positions like the chancellor and the prime minister.
I would say because there wouldn't be any sort of majority rule and things would just fall apart after a while with bickering and infighting.... which is where having a hung parliament CAN (but not always) be so bad, but sometimes these things end up being a good thing.
BanannaMan
03-11-17, 10:58 PM
Warrants now out for 'rebellion ' leaders.
May not be the best time to discuss independence in Spain at the moment.
Unless masses of people take to the streets in protest this bid for independence is over and a big loss for Catalonians.
Poor planing and a serious misjudgment on the Spanish government's reaction.
littleoldman2
04-11-17, 12:54 AM
With one or two exceptions, independent candidates regularly get stuffed by the organised parties.
Labour and Conservatives can turn up in marginal consistencies with a battle bus stuffed with well known MPs to push their message, spend thousands on TV and poster campaigns, and have their activists knocking on doors. There's not much an independent candidate can do to compete with them.
Could not agree more. ALL the established political parties in EVERY country are resourced and funded by vested interests.
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