2005 SV650s Valve Clearance Question

[egcSV650s]

Finally had a chance to do the valve clearance check and they seem to be out of spec. These are the clearances i got.

Front Cylinder
Intake - .004
.0035
Exhaust- .007
.007
Rear Cylinder
Intake- .0025-.003
.0025-.003
Exhaust .007
.007
On the rear cylinder i had .0025-.003, the .0025 was going in easy but the .003 wouldnt go in so its inbetween the two. Bike had done 31k miles and not sure if it was done at the 15k interval. Where can i get shims from? Is a kit better to get rather than individual? Thanks in advance

[SV650rules]

I have heard that some dealers do a swap on shims, you work out what you need, take your unwanted ones in and pay the difference, any orgers had experience of this or was the bloke that told me talking b0ll0x ?

[egcSV650s]

Oh right, ill give my local dealer a ring tomorrow and ask. Thanks

[Bibio]

you will have to convert those numbers to mm so you can work out the shim sizes to be ordered.

yes some dealers do indeed do a shim swap service, more so if you are a regular.

[egcSV650s]

Is it best going in the middle, so intake is meant to be between .004-.008 so should i go .006

[Bibio]

Is it best going in the middle, so intake is meant to be between .004-.008 so should i go .006

there is a table of what shims you need to use given your shims and gaps.

if you dont have it i'll see if i can post it up later but its in the manual download posted in another thread, unless its been deleted.

you need to convert your inch sizes to mm.

[egcSV650s]

That would be great if you could post it, thank you. Yeah ive converted them all into mm now.

[andy650]

I have a few spare shims, if you tell me what you need, and what you have to swap, I will see what I can do.

[johnnyrod]

You need to know the sizes of the shims that are already in. When you have the table, you look up the current shim against the measured gap and read off the new shim required. Aim for the upper half of the gap range i.e. looser rather than tighter, but if it's in spec then don't both changing it. So, it's a bit of a faff as you need to take the camshafts out to find out the shim sizes first, then if you're going to ride the bike you have a fair bit of reassembly that's going to be undone when you get the new shims. Once they're right though they pretty much never change.

[andy650]

So, it's a bit of a faff as you need to take the camshafts out to find out the shim sizes first, then if you're going to ride the bike you have a fair bit of reassembly that's going to be undone when you get the new shims.

And that is the main/only reason you would bother getting a shim kit.

If you can have it off the road for a few days whilst you get the shims you need, just buy what you need. As Johnnyrod said, unlikely to need doing again unless you do big miles.

[Bibio]

forgot about this but here it is now.

Intake:
https://s17.postimg.org/8lmjftlzz/shim_in.jpg

Exhaust:
https://s17.postimg.org/76kyr5xsf/shim_ex.jpg

TIP: if you right click each image and 'View Image' you can the go to file/print page and it will print them out (in firefox anyway)

[egcSV650s]

I have a few spare shims, if you tell me what you need, and what you have to swap, I will see what I can do.

Thank you i will have to take it apart and have a look

You need to know the sizes of the shims that are already in. When you have the table, you look up the current shim against the measured gap and read off the new shim required. Aim for the upper half of the gap range i.e. looser rather than tighter, but if it's in spec then don't both changing it. So, it's a bit of a faff as you need to take the camshafts out to find out the shim sizes first, then if you're going to ride the bike you have a fair bit of reassembly that's going to be undone when you get the new shims. Once they're right though they pretty much never change.

Brilliant thank you

And that is the main/only reason you would bother getting a shim kit.

If you can have it off the road for a few days whilst you get the shims you need, just buy what you need. As Johnnyrod said, unlikely to need doing again unless you do big miles.

Yeah was thinking about the shim kit just dont have the money at the moment but my bike is sorn at the moment because of winter and ive got a car to get around so got the time to take it apart so all good :) i only do about 3000 miles a year max

forgot about this but here it is now.

Intake:
https://s17.postimg.org/8lmjftlzz/shim_in.jpg

Exhaust:
https://s17.postimg.org/76kyr5xsf/shim_ex.jpg

TIP: if you right click each image and 'View Image' you can the go to file/print page and it will print them out (in firefox anyway)

Thank you so much thats a big help, really appreciate that

[egcSV650s]

Finally got round to getting the shims out and going by the chart the shims go up in .05 but ive got some shims which are saying 172 and 178?

Also i TDC the rear cylinder but the sprockets dont line up where there meant to be for TDC. The crankcase shows TDC but the markings on the sprockets dont. Ive attached a picture, black marking is where the markings are and red markings is where they should be. Can i just move them round to where there meant to be or will this cause problems

(Wont let me upload picture as its jpeg)

[andy650]

The factory has non 0.05 shims, so they can set them perfect. Most bikes have non 0.05 shims in them.

Regarding markings, sounds odd, are you absolutely sure?

If you are sure, have the valves ever been done before - i.e has someone put the cams back in wrongly? If no, then the factory assembled wrongly, which is very rare.

My TL1000R had the cams put in wrongly at the factory, but it wasn't as simple as putting them back in correctly, I had to do some procedure I don't fully remember relating to turning the engine a whole or half rev or something, because there was an odd number of teeth. Basically the cams were half a tooth out from the factory. The symptom was the marks didn't line up, but there was no noticeable effect on the running, presumably that is why they didn't do a recall (someone I know who worked at Suzuki knew all about it, apparently a mix up on the assembly line and they were all like it).

[egcSV650s]

Oh ok that would make sense, so would i just round it to nearest .05 so my 172 i can do 170 and the 178 ill do 180 just as i need to order some shims?

Im not sure if the valves have been done before as i brought the bike with 23,000 miles on and now has just over 30,000 so it needed checking now. The best i can explain is the markings (arrows) on the sprockets are meant to be pointing at 12o’clock but there both pointing around 10o’clock

[johnnyrod]

Wow, that would be miles off. Deffo post a picture . Are you sure you have the correct mark on the flywheel?

[andy650]

Post a photo of both the cam and crank markings, put them in the cloud somewhere and link if needed.

You don't necessarily round old shim to the nearest 05, just use the 05 shim that will give you closest to ideal clearance (ideal is the wide side of the range, the gap tends to close up)

Don't forget you can use the ones you take out elsewhere, musical shims if you like.

I usually have a paper plan of which shim came from where, what shim needs to go in where to get ideal clearance, which shims become free, and then work out what needs to be bought.

Thankfully the SV is only a twin with 8 shims, 16 of the buggers is even more confusing!

[egcSV650s]

Wow, that would be miles off. Deffo post a picture . Are you sure you have the correct mark on the flywheel?

Yes its on the correct marking by the crankcase

Post a photo of both the cam and crank markings, put them in the cloud somewhere and link if needed.

You don't necessarily round old shim to the nearest 05, just use the 05 shim that will give you closest to ideal clearance (ideal is the wide side of the range, the gap tends to close up)

Don't forget you can use the ones you take out elsewhere, musical shims if you like.

I usually have a paper plan of which shim came from where, what shim needs to go in where to get ideal clearance, which shims become free, and then work out what needs to be bought.

Thankfully the SV is only a twin with 8 shims, 16 of the buggers is even more confusing!

Im not sure why its not letting me post a picture as there in the correct format but keeps saying its not. Yes was thinking about using other ones if they are the right size. Yes ive dont a paper plan aswell makes things easier. Is there any other way of posting pictures up

[Dave-the-rave]

Something to be aware of here. There's two procedures for setting crank position. One for checking the valves and another for adjusting the valves. They're not the same.

[egcSV650s]

I was not aware of that. What are the different procedures?

[Dave-the-rave]

I'm doing this from memory so wait until someone else chimes in to confirm what I'm saying.

Valve check procedure...

Front cylinder
F mark lined up on the rotor at TDC means front cylinder cam lobes facing up and leaning slightly outward.

Rear cylinder
R mark lined up at TDC means rear cylinder cam lobes facing up and leaning slightly inward.

To remove cams for adjustment...

F mark lined up front cylinder at TDC as before. Timing marks should line up on front cylinder. If not rotate 360 degrees to F mark and check again. Take out the front cams.

This is the counter intuitive part regarding the rear cylinder...Rotate the crank 360 degrees until the F mark shows again. The rear cylinder timing marks should now be lined up. Remove the cams.

Note.. The R mark is not used during removal or installation of the rear cylinder camshafts.

[SV650rules]

Finally got round to getting the shims out and going by the chart the shims go up in .05 but ive got some shims which are saying 172 and 178?

Also i TDC the rear cylinder but the sprockets dont line up where there meant to be for TDC. The crankcase shows TDC but the markings on the sprockets dont. Ive attached a picture, black marking is where the markings are and red markings is where they should be. Can i just move them round to where there meant to be or will this cause problems

(Wont let me upload picture as its jpeg)

Try copy and paste of photo into MS Word document and either 'save as' older .doc (not more recent .docx) or save as PDF (a 'save as' option in MS Word) and post, it works for me as long as file not over size limit (don't try more than a couple of photos in one file). File size shriks a lot when saved as PDF and a little bit of definition lost but not really too bad.

[egcSV650s]

Managed to attach them as pdf's quality isnt that great but hopefully you can see

[Dave-the-rave]

Read my previous post.

Go back to the front cylinder and set the F timing mark on the crank until the front cylinder camshaft timing marks line up. Now rotate the crank a full 360 degrees anti clockwise until the F mark lines up again. The rear cylinder cam timing marks should now be lined up.

Ignore the R mark on the crank.

[egcSV650s]

Read my previous post.

Go back to the front cylinder and set the F timing mark on the crank until the front cylinder camshaft timing marks line up. Now rotate the crank a full 360 degrees anti clockwise until the F mark lines up again. The rear cylinder cam timing marks should now be lined up.

Ignore the R mark on the crank.

Oh right i understand what you mean now, ill have a go at it next weekend as im away this week

[Dave-the-rave]

Let us know how it goes.

[egcSV650s]

I'm doing this from memory so wait until someone else chimes in to confirm what I'm saying.

Valve check procedure...

Front cylinder
F mark lined up on the rotor at TDC means front cylinder cam lobes facing up and leaning slightly outward.

Rear cylinder
R mark lined up at TDC means rear cylinder cam lobes facing up and leaning slightly inward.

To remove cams for adjustment...

F mark lined up front cylinder at TDC as before. Timing marks should line up on front cylinder. If not rotate 360 degrees to F mark and check again. Take out the front cams.

This is the counter intuitive part regarding the rear cylinder...Rotate the crank 360 degrees until the F mark shows again. The rear cylinder timing marks should now be lined up. Remove the cams.

Note.. The R mark is not used during removal or installation of the rear cylinder camshafts.

Been wondering, how comes when adjusting and removing the cams you have to have the mark on F and not R? Does it matter if you have it on R and remove the cams?

[Dave-the-rave]

The timing marks on the rear cylinder cam shafts won't be properly aligned if the crank is set on the R mark, which without seeing your bike I suspect is where you are going wrong.

Don't remove the cam shafts on any cylinder if the cam timing marks arn't aligned like the books show.
They also need to be aligned as the book shows before removing or installing the cam chain tensioner.

[egcSV650s]

What happens if i do remove the chain tensioner and cams once its on the R mark as thats what ive done. Ive put it all exactly back where it is now though

[Dave-the-rave]

What happens if i do remove the chain tensioner and cams once its on the R mark as thats what ive done. Ive put it all exactly back where it is now though

I'm not sure what you mean by ''put it all back exactly where it is now''. If you have installed the rear cams incorrectly the valves will hit the piston when you spin the motor so don't spin the motor. Assuming the front cams and tensioner are all in place here's the easiest way to fix the rear without damaging anything...

Remove the rear tensioner and cams.
Turn the crank anti clockwise until F mark is lined up
Check front cam timing marks are lined up if not rotate crank 360 to F
You'll have to hold the rear cam chain up and on the sprocket by hand
when turning the crank or it can get stuck.

So now the front is on F and front cam timing marks are aligned.
Turn the crank a full 360 degrees anti clockwise back to the F mark again.
The front timing marks will now not be lined up but that's ok.
Install rear cams ensuring timing marks line up as per the book.
Install chain tensioner.
Do all of the above with both spark plugs removed.

[egcSV650s]

I meant when i took the rear cams out i took a picture of where the markings were and lined them back up where they were in the picture but ill just do what youve said to properly time the rear. Is it best using a toothbrush to push the chain up while turning as dont want fingers getting caught.

Whats the actual explinarion behind it all then? Like how comes you can measure the gap on R but have to rotate the engine to F for removal? Is it just because its easier to see where the timing marks are?

[Dave-the-rave]

Theoretically if you put the rear cams back exactly where they were regardless of timing marks, it would be fine.
Personally I'd do it the correct way so as to avoid expensive mistakes.

Hold the cam chain in your hand at the top, keeping enough pressure on it that it stays on the bottom sprocket as the crank/sprocket turns. Basically you're using your hand as a top sprocket.

The reason behind it all has to do with firing sequence of the cylinders and V twins are all a bit odd in that regard. Also it's important to take out and install camshafts when they arn't pressing down on the valves. ie valves are fully closed. Using the correct timing marks makes visualisation easy. It means the valves are fully closed, and it also allows chain slack to be on the side of the tensioner, so that tensioner can take up the slack. Using the F for front and back is a bit counter intuitive but that's how it is. Some engines are odd. My XV750 crank shaft runs backwards.

When you have got it all timed and bolted down turn the engine slowly by hand a few times and stop if you feel any metalic resistance. If all is well and front and back timing marks are lining up when they should then re check the valve gaps and write them down. That's when the F and R marks are used.

[egcSV650s]

Ive taken the cams out while on R, so by what your saying ive taken them out when the valves arent fully closed, will that damage the valves?

Makes sense now that youve explained it all, thank you for that.

Regards to the shims as i need to order some, ive used the chart that someone kindly posted earlier and it goes up it 005 but some of my shims are 172 and 178, so when im seeing which shims i need do i round the 172 to 170 and the 178 to 180 as i need to see which shims i need to get?

[Dave-the-rave]

Your valves will be fine as long as it's put back together right.

The 172 and 178 are factory shims it's not a problem. You can only buy shims in 005 as you have noticed. Seems you measured your gaps in Imperial which isn't helpful so I've converted them as best I can.

Front Cylinder

Intake - [.004] 0.102
[.0035] 0.089
Exhaust-[.007] 0.178
[.007] 0.178

Rear Cylinder

Intake- [.0025-.003] 0.069
[.0025-.003] 0.069
Exhaust [.007] 0.178
[.007] 0.178

So by my calculations all your valves are tight except one intake which is right at the edge. Now I'm not too happy about measuring a metric bike in imperial then converting to metric. Not with feeler gauges and such small values. Here's your options....

Trust the conversion will work ok, calculate which shims you need using the chart and get the rear cylinder buttoned up, before moving on to the front. OR

Assemble the rear cylinder, timed correctly and re measure both cylinder valves using metric feeler gauges.

If you go with the first option I cant tell you which new shims you need because I don't know what shims were in there. The chart on the second page of this thread shows you how to calculate. Basically all your valves are tight so you need to go down in shim sizes. That makes for a bigger gap. If in doubt let us know what shim size corresponds to each of the above measurements.

Don't be disheartened. You'll get there.

[andy650]

Putting it back together exactly as you found it only works if it was correct in the first place, use the marks!

In theory it doesn't matter where you measure the gap, or where the cams are when you remove them, as long as the heels of the cams, and not the lobes, are at the buckets, but again use the marks!

Oh, and get yourself some metric feelers, one less hassle and probably more accurate than converting.

No need to remeasure the gaps with metric if any hassle, just use metric for the final check.

And very good advice to rotate the engine carefully/manually a couple of times before putting the valve/cam covers back on, you can triple check the timing marks and the clearances at the same time.

[egcSV650s]

Your valves will be fine as long as it's put back together right.

The 172 and 178 are factory shims it's not a problem. You can only buy shims in 005 as you have noticed. Seems you measured your gaps in Imperial which isn't helpful so I've converted them as best I can.

Front Cylinder

Intake - [.004] 0.102
[.0035] 0.089
Exhaust-[.007] 0.178
[.007] 0.178

Rear Cylinder

Intake- [.0025-.003] 0.069
[.0025-.003] 0.069
Exhaust [.007] 0.178
[.007] 0.178

So by my calculations all your valves are tight except one intake which is right at the edge. Now I'm not too happy about measuring a metric bike in imperial then converting to metric. Not with feeler gauges and such small values. Here's your options....

Trust the conversion will work ok, calculate which shims you need using the chart and get the rear cylinder buttoned up, before moving on to the front. OR

Assemble the rear cylinder, timed correctly and re measure both cylinder valves using metric feeler gauges.

If you go with the first option I cant tell you which new shims you need because I don't know what shims were in there. The chart on the second page of this thread shows you how to calculate. Basically all your valves are tight so you need to go down in shim sizes. That makes for a bigger gap. If in doubt let us know what shim size corresponds to each of the above measurements.

Don't be disheartened. You'll get there.

I originally measured the gaps in imperial but ive measured them again the other day in metric and here are the measurements

Front Cylinder
Intake - Both are 0.102
Exhaust - One was 0.178 and the other 0.152

For both the intakes i had 178 shims in there and for both exhaust i had 175 shims

Rear Cylinder
Intake - Both are 0.063
Exhaust - Both are 0.178

For the intake i had one shim at 172 and the other 175 and for the exhaust i had one shim at 170 and the other 172

[Dave-the-rave]

I originally measured the gaps in imperial but ive measured them again the other day in metric and here are the measurements

Front Cylinder
Intake - Both are 0.102 (use 175 in both)
Exhaust - One was 0.178 (use 170) and the other 0.152 (use 165)

For both the intakes i had 178 shimsin there and for both exhaust i had 175 shims

Rear Cylinder
Intake - Both are 0.063 (use 165 for both)
Exhaust - Both are 0.178 (use 165 for both)

For the intake i had one shim at 172 and the other 175 and for the exhaust i had one shim at 170 and the other 172


Now if I've done me sums right you only need to buy 5x165 shims because you can already have 2x175 and 1x170.

[egcSV650s]

Great, thank you so much, youve been a life saver. I will get those ordered straight away. One other question, when i was taking the chain tensioners off, if im correct there should be a gasket once i take the tensioner off but there wasnt on front or rear, is there meant to be gaskets there?

[Dave-the-rave]

Yeah it will either be stuck to the tensioner or the head, or both if it's ripped apart. Unlikely there's non there.
Order two new ones along with the shims from Robinsons Foundry.

[egcSV650s]

Ahh right ill have a look tomorrow. I normally order from Fowler Parts will that be ok still? Thank you so much for your help

[Dave-the-rave]

Yes Fowler is ok.

[egcSV650s]

I done what you said about turning the crank to F and its all lined up properly at the rear now so all good, thanks.

Only thing now is where the pictures in the haynes manual show where the marks lining up to the chain are meant to be mine are different but will this matter? Its like it on front and rear cylinder before i touched anything. Ive attached pictures showing what i mean. Where it says number 1 on where the chain should start my number 1 is where ive circled the chain ring on the picture. The markings on the sprockets are where the haynes are but my chain is over to the right 1 link more than the haynes one, will this matter.

[Dave-the-rave]

No that's fine. Mine was like that as well. Important when re installing them is the 16 pins as indicated in the diagram. Also ensuring there's no slack in the front of the chain between the crank sprocket and the cam sprocket. All the slack must be on the back of the chain on the tensioner side. It'll be clearer when you put them in. Take some clear photos as well before disassembling for reference later.

[egcSV650s]

Great thats perfect then. Yeah ive been taking photos always good to do that makes it easier if i forget where things go or just for reference. Thanks alot for all your help and everyone whos given me info. Ive ordered the parts so should come Tuesday and will let you know how it all goes once its back together.

[egcSV650s]

Just an update. Only got round to finishing the bike today and put it all back together and went to fire the bike up struggled a bit as its besn sitting for 5months but started perfect. Sounds lovely and smooth. Thank you everyone for all your help. Really appreciate it :)

[Dave-the-rave]

Outstanding. Now read up on how to sync the carbs. \\:D/