Insurance Q: awareness course or points & fine?

[Craig380]

Does anyone have any experience of whether doing an awareness course bumps up insurance premiums, in the same way that getting points does?

I got pulled over at the weekend and got a NIP for riding without due care (misjudged an overtake, nothing happened, but was observed by police car).

After all the usual license / insurance / MOT checks I had a chat with the officer, he reckoned that given my clean license (never had any previous convictions), I'd probably get offered an awareness course as an alternative to points and a fine.

I know it's not a legal requirement to inform insurers that you've done a course (because it's technically not a conviction) but I don't want to risk them refusing a future claim because I didn't tell them.

So any experiences would be very welcome, thanks

[Grim-Lock]

i believe user LittlePeaHead actually got a discount from her premium by arguing a greater awareness and respect for safety after taking a course although your milage may vary.

[garynortheast]

When I did my course, the guy leading it made the point that unless there is anything in the small print of your insurance application to the contrary, you do not need to inform the insurance company as the course is not a conviction. He spent several minutes laying this out very clearly to us.

[Sir Trev]

I guess if they specifically ask though you should be truthful. One advantage of an online application of course is if it's not on the form then it will never come up but if you call and speak to a human you may be asked. Got a feeling I have been in the past when arguing about my automated renewal premium being a joke.

[Craig380]

Thanks all - via the power of the intermeweb, my insurer's website (a popular bike insurer whose name rhymes with Barrel Crash :)) specifically states that policyholders do NOT need to inform them about awareness courses. So that's good.

Just have to wait for the letter now, to see if they do offer me a course.

The experience will teach me to be more cautious around Blaenau Ffestiniog, that much is certain ...

[Chris_SVS]

Rule of thumb is take care around places I can't pronounce :p

Many years ago my points had no effect on insurance

[Craig380]

Thanks again for the advice. Got the letter at the weekend and I've been offered a course. Only a 3-hour job and £85 quid so it's cheaper than the fine and no points either. So it's a no-brainer.

[Red Herring]

Thanks again for the advice. Got the letter at the weekend and I've been offered a course. Only a 3-hour job and £85 quid so it's cheaper than the fine and no points either. So it's a no-brainer.

Sure is from their point of view. This way they make £85 and don't actually have to go to the trouble of proving you did anything wrong...... It would have to be one hell of a misjudged overtake for CPS to even consider taking you to court for it, especially if it wasn't on camera and you didn't make any admissions. Just saying.......

[Craig380]

It would have to be one hell of a misjudged overtake for CPS to even consider taking you to court for it, especially if it wasn't on camera and you didn't make any admissions. Just saying.......

The observing police car caught the overtake on its dashcam, unfortunately ...

[Red Herring]

That's a shame, did you watch the footage? Without embarrassing yourself are you able to give some detail to the circumstance, not wishing to laugh at your expense, after all we all make mistakes, but it would be useful to appreciate where some coppers may draw the line between a mistake and something they feel ought to be prosecuted.

[Luckypants]

For the past two years my car insurers have asked if I have any speeding convictions OR awareness courses in the past 5 years. This was using their online quote / buy system. Failure to disclose is a breach of the contract terms and they can decline a claim if one is made.


I don't recall if the bike insurers asked, but as its up for renewal soon I will check.

[Craig380]

What happened was this: I was approaching Blaenau, heading North (uphill) on the A496.

Came up behind a slow-moving Micra (doing 40mph uphill where the road is NSL). Continuous traffic the other way, so no immediate chance to overtake.

Then all the traffic in the other direction passes, but there's a left-hand bend approaching. Car in front is still doing 40, I've got enough time to squirt round before the bend. I commit to the overtake, am past the slow-moving vehicle and pulling back in, crossing the dashed white line back to my side of the road just before the bend when .... the police car comes around the corner.

I carry on (should've done a runner ;)), I see in my mirrors the police car has turned around and is following. I get pulled over.

I didn't watch the dashcam footage. In discussion, the officer said I caused him to have to manoeuvre to avoid me. I'm not 100% sure that was the case, but maybe I did.

I don't think I failed the 'attitude test' as I did stop as quickly and safely as possible, got off the bike, took my helmet off and spoke politely. The officer did all of the bike tax / insurance / license checks before deciding to issue the NIP.

Being honest with myself, it was an impatient overtake, but it wasn't a dangerous / swervy overtake. As luck would have it, the cop car was the ONLY car coming the other way, so if I'd waited another 5 seconds I could have been past the Micra and away without hassle. That's the lesson I've taken from the incident.

[Craig380]

For the past two years my car insurers have asked if I have any speeding convictions OR awareness courses in the past 5 years. This was using their online quote / buy system. Failure to disclose is a breach of the contract terms and they can decline a claim if one is made.

I don't recall if the bike insurers asked, but as its up for renewal soon I will check.

I checked the websites of my bike insurer (Carol Nash) and car insurer (Direct Line) and both say in their FAQs that they don't view courses as convictions, so there's no need to actively inform them. However, if they asked the question of me directly, I would tell them.

[Red Herring]

Hi Craig380.
Firstly no, you shouldn't have done a runner, you did exactly the right thing.
Secondly if you were past the vehicle and crossing the centre markings when the oncoming vehicle came into view then it extremely unlikely, in fact I'd go so far as to say definitely not, that they have a case for careless driving. Bearing in mind that being on the offside into a left hand bend actually gives you an extended view of opposing traffic, and the fact that you were overtaking a vehicle doing in the region of 40mph suggests this wasn't a particularly tight bend, I'd have told him (them) exactly where they could shove their NIP, however I'm aware that my level of confidence around questioning their evidence may be somewhat higher than yours......

You may well feel that £85 is a reasonable fee for the experience you have gained from this encounter, and you may well be right, but be wary of the law of unintended consequence..... Road safety partnerships that make a lucrative living out of dumbing down our driving legislation may seem harmless enough but each move like this lowers the threshold for everyone. Good luck on the course, have fun, and be sure to pass on my thoughts and compliments.....please!

[Bibio]

i agree with RH. if you were on the correct side of the road over the white lines and the oncoming police car had to swerve then i'm afraid to say that they were actually at fault for not paying due care and attention.

at the time i would have asked to see the video evidence and if the video showed that i was on the correct side of the road then like RH i would have politely told them where to shove their NIP. police officers interpret the law at any given time they think an offence has been committed (this is why you are charged with on offence) its up to a court and a judge to determine whether or not you have committed an offence, even the judge is not the law (they dont like being reminded of the fact, just like police officers). the law is what is written in books.

[Craig380]

@RedHerring & Bibio - in hindsight, I should have asked to see the dashcam footage at the time. You're right, it was not a tight bend, although I couldn't see all the way around it because of roadside bushes etc. I was probably ON the centre markings (single dashed white line, not solid white) when the police car came round, but certainly past the Micra and concluding the overtake (heading back to my side of the road).

What I described above is my view & memory of the incident: the video may have given me a different view, or maybe not. However, the option to see it wasn't offered to me, and I wasn't asked to sit in the police car while the bike tax / license checks were being done. If I'm pulled for any reason in the future, I'll be sure to ask politely about these things.

I'll pass on your compliments on the course too ;):D

[DarrenSV650S]

Are police obliged to show you dashcam footage?

[Bibio]

Are police obliged to show you dashcam footage?
yes if they have any, with speeding they are also obliged to show the calibration certificate for their speedo/cam.

i've always found that most of the time being nice gets you a long way with misdemeanours or things hovering between black/grey but if they insist on being wipes is when i'll start asking questions.

i have been pulled by the airport (armed response) police for speeding who were adamant i was getting a ticket. i wont go into detail but they had me spread eagle against the police vehicle when i started questioning them. the final nail in the coffin was me telling them they had no "official business" carrying loaded side arms while questioning me as they were out of their jurisdiction.