View Full Version : Quote of the day (sorry, Brexit related)
The Guardian grouped together today's, 11Dec2018, newspaper headlines and quoted from some, including the Telegraph which I wouldn't normally see. The quote is from Allison Pearson who first says:
" I have never felt more ashamed to be a Conservative "
and then follows it up with a coup de grace:
"Oh, for God’s sake, what fresh Brexit hell is this?” and concludes “we continue to be led by a mule flogging a dead horse." http://emoticons.datahamster.com/eek7.gif
the best quote has to be from May.. "no deal is better than a bad deal". we should call the PM, Teresa May-be not.
in or out with no hoki koki.....
I reckon she's hoping by delaying the vote, all the MPs will simply go for "whatever, I just don't care any more"
In fact if there's a 2nd referendum and that's an option on the ballot paper...
there wont be a second vote. if there is then SNP will demand that Scotland has a second referendum.
if NI gets a soft border then the SNP will demand the same for Scotland.
yes its the SNP that are throwing the spanner in the works.
SV650rules
11-12-18, 04:19 PM
I thought the wee ginger krankie was well popular north of the border.
Another comment heard on radio 4 the other day 'has anyone tried switching Britain off and on again' ?
SV650rules
11-12-18, 06:42 PM
the power workers' union tried that in the 70s and we got Thatcher. So be careful, when you switch a country as old as Britain on/off you sometimes raise a witch.
Don't do it - we may get Anna Soubry or Amber Rudd
Biker Biggles
11-12-18, 07:01 PM
Or even Angela Gruesome.
What a **** poor shower we are stuck with, but we get the politicians we deserve as we elect them.
Talking Heads
11-12-18, 07:21 PM
“And to top it all off, the day finished with a woman with a sword chasing a man with a big stick"
Mhairi Black MP
https://www.thenational.scot/news/17290946.watch-mhairi-black-nails-the-absurdity-of-the-uk-on-brexit/
Or even Angela Gruesome.
What a **** poor shower we are stuck with, but we get the politicians we deserve as we elect them.
yes indeed but when there are no decent candidates then we get stuck with who there is on the paper and we must choose someone. this is how Trump got in.
so in reality its **** poor that the public mindlessness vote for the two big party's as a safe bet.. this is why nothing ever changes and the big two get more and more back door power using deep rooted media contacts etc.etc
its up to the public to break the mould but they dont as they are big scaredy pussys who like to be bullied.
dont get me started on the "its a wasted vote" malarkey. you just need to look at Scotland (be it right or wrong) to see that you can in fact change and vote for someone else and it does make a difference and its not a wasted vote. remember that the SNP used to be a bunch of like minded people huddled round a oil drum fire at the bottom of calton hill in Edinburgh to now be the major political party in Scotland and the third largest in the UK.
garynortheast
11-12-18, 09:04 PM
This is about the way it is I think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NpExkViy6M
This is about the way it is I think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NpExkViy6M
class :smt043
I really can't understand why it isn't going very well considering David Davies MP was in charge of the negotiations for over 2 years. :smt102
SV650rules
12-12-18, 10:35 AM
I really can't understand why it isn't going very well considering David Davies MP was in charge of the negotiations for over 2 years. :smt102
You can't negotiate with the EU, they are in their own political bubble, just like some of the old europeans in the middle ages who thought the world was centre of universe they think that EU is the centre of the world. USA is getting a taste of what our brexit negotiators were up against. Like trying to nail jelly to a wall.
https://www.politico.eu/article/trumps-man-in-brussels-slams-out-of-touch-eu/
keith_d
12-12-18, 02:01 PM
You can't negotiate with the EU, they are in their own political bubble, just like some of the old europeans in the middle ages who thought the world was centre of universe they think that EU is the centre of the world. USA is getting a taste of what our brexit negotiators were up against. Like trying to nail jelly to a wall.
You have to recognise that the Eurocrats don't want to give the UK a good deal. From their perspective that would just encourage other countries to leave.
i dont understand why we are even asking for deals.. it's like saying i want to leave your social club as i dont like paying my dues but still come in for the cheep booze... ermm GTF
SV650rules
12-12-18, 04:31 PM
Or even Angela Gruesome.
What a **** poor shower we are stuck with, but we get the politicians we deserve as we elect them.
You can only elect the ones who have their names on the voting card.
Talking Heads
12-12-18, 06:20 PM
You can only elect the ones who have their names on the voting card.
Actually its only tory MPs who get to vote for the tory leader.
littleoldman2
12-12-18, 06:28 PM
i dont understand why we are even asking for deals.. it's like saying i want to leave your social club as i dont like paying my dues but still come in for the cheep booze... ermm GTF
More like. We buy an awful lot from this shop and no longer want to pay an entrance fee they say shut up you stupid mug and give us your money if you want to buy our gear.
Fact is it's only a market and we buy a lot more than we sell (and pay over the odds for our pitch). Why we have bothered trying to have meaningful negotiations I do not know, when from the very outset the Europeans have publicly stated that we cannot be allowed to leave with a deal that is better than staying. They have always been prepared to loose a little when we leave in order not to loose everything when others followed.
littleoldman2
12-12-18, 06:32 PM
"Why we have bothered trying to have meaningful negotiations I do not know, when from the very outset the Europeans have publicly stated that we cannot be allowed to leave with a deal that is better than staying. They have always been prepared to loose a little when we leave in order not to loose everything when others followed." BTW I don't blame the Europeans at all, I just don't know why we bothered.
SV650rules
12-12-18, 06:42 PM
Actually its only tory MPs who get to vote for the tory leader.
We were talking about electing MP's not PM's
so what exactly are the "deals" that the PM is trying to negotiate?
from what i can gather its more to do with migrants who dont have a UK passport. well as far as i'm concerned then they are "visitors" so will have to apply to become UK citizens or leave. same goes for UK migrants in EU.
trade.. the Gov must be rubbing its hands with all the import duty/tax its going to make. but wait the UK public are now going to see a rise in the price of goods especially white ones, yipeeeeee...
NI border.. yup there has to be one. no floppy or soft borders. i think this is where the biggest problem is going to be as the whole of Ireland will not be happy one little bit about a border again. not to mention the "nippy scots bitch" will want the same if there is a soft border.
so what other "deals" can we expect?
what can the public hope to gain with all the new found wealth?
as far as i'm concerned we are leaving so there should be no deals and i hope that the EU tell us to go do one for being racist fekwits.
south park sums it up well
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/IdealisticNearCoati-max-1mb.gif
littleoldman2
12-12-18, 08:29 PM
The problem with the border is that the EU won't allow the Irish to have an open one, I'm sure the whole of the UK would be reasonably happy with an open border between the UK and Ireland. Problem is it takes two to tango and the the EU have told the Irish not to dance. Perhaps it's bluff time.
Chris_SVS
12-12-18, 08:50 PM
The problem with the border is that the EU won't allow the Irish to have an open one, I'm sure the whole of the UK would be reasonably happy with an open border between the UK and Ireland. Problem is it takes two to tango and the the EU have told the Irish not to dance. Perhaps it's bluff time.
Honestly, I'm considering that I may not be able to attend the Wales Weekend..
The deal brought back was actually going to be very good for Ireland, avoid a hard border and allow free travel (which technically I can still do as an Irish passport holder). Typically the DUP are selective as to when they wish to be British and "in line with" but don't seem to realise the potential for a United Ireland much sooner and possibly on their watch.. Something that WILL lead to more bloodshed (I'm 30yo, and cannot remember a peaceful island. I suspect I won't either)
littleoldman2
12-12-18, 09:22 PM
I don't think anyone mentioned a united Ireland. I didn't or wouldn't. As far as customs are concerned we currently have an open border and that is what the EU will not allow if there is no deal. But that is up to the Irish. Perhaps I should have made that clear.
Chris_SVS
12-12-18, 09:33 PM
I don't think anyone mentioned a united Ireland. I didn't or wouldn't. As far as customs are concerned we currently have an open border and that is what the EU will not allow if there is no deal. But that is up to the Irish. Perhaps I should have made that clear.
I did though ;) because it's relevant on a local level if there is indeed no deal.. Something I feel is quite a likely scenario.
Red ones
12-12-18, 09:37 PM
Of course any deal that the EU agrees will be worse than membership. It's a club and the club will protect its members ahead of non members.
If you ran the club would you cut a deal that's better than membership?
The press are doing the "the deal is better than no deal" story. It probably is. But should we accept that as our fate? Do we accept a deal BECAUSE it's better than no deal, when you can be sure the deal is not as good as membership?
MPs generally spotted this quite sometime ago but it's now a game of stare. Who is going to blink first? No one wants to be the first to suggest a second referendum because the SNP will jump up and down and a chunk of the population will say they have been ignored. No one wants to be the first to say we stay in the EU. They all want the talks to fail spectacularly and then look like heroes putting out the fire.
Sadly politicians, press and people have forgotten the ability to drive national pride, interest and fortitude while believing in an united Europe. June 4, 1940 "we will fight in the streets... We will never surrender." September 19, 1946 "If at first all the States of Europe are not willing or able to join the Union, we must nevertheless proceed to assemble and combine those who will and those who can." Both said by the same politician.
Talking Heads
12-12-18, 10:12 PM
We were talking about electing MP's not PM's
Similar problem, you only get to vote for the candidate the party selects.
In the case of Labour, local constituencies can't even deselect incumbent candidates which is a complete democratic outrage.
All representatives of every party at every level of government should face mandatory reselection at election time.
FFS don't get me started on the house of lords....
SV650rules
13-12-18, 09:42 AM
The EU is in 'massive damage control' mode on Brexit, they are fighting for the continued existence of EU (which is a lost cause anyway as they are falling behind the rest of the world anyway - a 1950's political idea in a 21st century world) about as flexible as a lump of granite. Varadkar (despite the huge amount of trade RofI does with UK) offered to be the EU useful idiot in frustrating a clean Brexit in the hope maybe of getting a united Ireland out of it if he was intransigent enough) I was buying some stuff the other day and it was almost in my trolly when I saw 'made in R of I and the telltale flag on the boxes - went straight back on the shelf, also buy Cornish butter and English cheese now, and nothing Scottish until they get rid of the wee ginger Krankie.
Talking Heads
13-12-18, 09:59 AM
Rest assured up here stuff with union jackery all over it gets left on the shelves too.
England has always hated Europe and thought itself superior.
Well the EU has handed Westminster its @r5e on a plate.
Teresa's only hope is to revoke article 50 and blame the SNP for it, we get the blame for everything else so why not this too.
SNP only rose in popularity because of how badly Scotland is treated by England.
Prediction: the UK is over, England has killed it.
punyXpress
13-12-18, 10:43 AM
Sadly politicians, press and people have forgotten the ability to drive national pride, interest and fortitude while believing in an united Europe. June 4, 1940 "we will fight in the streets... We will never surrender." September 19, 1946 "If at first all the States of Europe are not willing or able to join the Union, we must nevertheless proceed to assemble and combine those who will and those who can." Both said by the same politician.
As well as: " 1934: Winston Churchill warned that weak defences could mean that Britain could be "tortured into absolute subjection :
in any war with Germany "
How right he was 84 years ago!
SV650rules
13-12-18, 11:00 AM
As well as: " 1934: Winston Churchill warned that weak defences could mean that Britain could be "tortured into absolute subjection :
in any war with Germany "
How right he was 84 years ago!
I am afraid that although Germany 'lost' both world wars it has actually 'won the peace' through its ownership of the EU, make no mistake Germany calls the shots in EU, they just changed 'Deutschmark' to 'Euro' and carried on taking over Europe state by state. The Euro makes it easy for Germany to rule EU trade, a common currency means that other EU countries cannot undercut it, although tourist dependent countries like Greece, Italy and Spain always need a relatively weak currency to make their destination attractive to tourists.
So by leaving we're just waving the white flag and saying you can have it? Definite change of policy there.
SV650rules
13-12-18, 11:23 AM
Under the new rules of democracy in the UK ( the definition has been changed during the last 2 years ) the ERG is calling for a re-run of the no confidence vote because Mp's did not understand what they were voting for, and the 'remain with Theresa' party overspent on their campaign. Theresa May did survive but with only around 40 votes in it ( less than 15% of Conservative MP's) she is badly damaged. To achieve that small majority she had to promise not to lead the party into the next election (after her 'one man' handling of the 2017 election where she composed the party manifesto on her own and non of the cabinet was allowed to see it until it was too late to change it - there is a pattern emerging here).
I agree here. Everything seems to be done by means of political tricks and "working the system" to one's advantage. We're losing the point of it all.
the only country's products i refuse to buy are from Zimbabwe and thats due to the atrocity's they done to British farmers. apart from that i buy any produce from any country. why deny myself the pleasure of something because of the flag on the packaging. i know which things to stay away from like Spanish strawberry's but their raspberry's are superb. oohhh and i wont buy from USA for the fact its all tasteless shizz pumped full of chemicals.
i would go as far to say that i find all the variety of foods available from all over the globe amazing. i was eating grapes from Peru last night and they were lovely.
what i have been disappointed with this year is the quality of British fruit and veg but we can only blame the weather for that.
why cant i get leeks from Wales.... lol
littleoldman2
13-12-18, 02:49 PM
Rest assured up here stuff with union jackery all over it gets left on the shelves too.
England has always hated Europe and thought itself superior.
Well the EU has handed Westminster its @r5e on a plate.
Teresa's only hope is to revoke article 50 and blame the SNP for it, we get the blame for everything else so why not this too.
SNP only rose in popularity because of how badly Scotland is treated by England.
Prediction: the UK is over, England has killed it.
reminds me of this joke http://forums.sv650.org/showpost.php?p=2984121&postcount=1080
rictus01
13-12-18, 11:33 PM
I'll just leave this here.
https://www.facebook.com/Reasons2Remain/videos/781956595486967/?t=0
Biker Biggles
14-12-18, 09:35 AM
I'll just leave this here.
https://www.facebook.com/Reasons2Remain/videos/781956595486967/?t=0
Long time no see. How are you doing?:smt039
rictus01
14-12-18, 11:58 AM
Long time no see. How are you doing?:smt039
Indeed, got a notification from this board from "random rideouts" and fortunately remembered my login. I see things are a good deal quieter on here these days and alas the meetings/AR and alike are no more, shame that, but hey time passes.
Got a few bike related thing going on including a Wales and Yorkshire Dales trip early next year, but health not been as good as it should, then again not quite dead yet.
Oh and Merry Christmas.
Biker Biggles
14-12-18, 01:04 PM
Indeed, got a notification from this board from "random rideouts" and fortunately remembered my login. I see things are a good deal quieter on here these days and alas the meetings/AR and alike are no more, shame that, but hey time passes.
Got a few bike related thing going on including a Wales and Yorkshire Dales trip early next year, but health not been as good as it should, then again not quite dead yet.
Oh and Merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to you too.
Yes,times change and forums like this are largely pushed out by facebook or whatever the current media is.Still a few old faces here though.
maviczap
14-12-18, 07:39 PM
Indeed, got a notification from this board from "random rideouts" and fortunately remembered my login. I see things are a good deal quieter on here these days and alas the meetings/AR and alike are no more, shame that, but hey time passes.
Got a few bike related thing going on including a Wales and Yorkshire Dales trip early next year, but health not been as good as it should, then again not quite dead yet.
Oh and Merry Christmas.
Glad to see you're still in the land of the living Mark
Happy crimbo
punyXpress
14-12-18, 08:21 PM
All the Best for Christmas, Guys & Gals :santa:
Resolution: Use the Forum rather than pratting about on farcebook etc. You'll know my posts are abundantly full of Prairie Oysters.
aka: all bulsh1t, no facts
now that the UK are not getting their own way in the EUP there is talk of another referendum. if that referendum then comes back as stay westminster will have to go back to the EUP with their tail between their legs.. but wait, what if the EUP say tough we had a vote and your out, which i fully believe is what will happen.
if there is another referendum on leaving the EU then i would presume that this would set legal precedent for Scotland to have another referendum for leaving the UK...
what happens if there is a hard border between I and NI but NI decide that ermm no the UK can GTF and we are joining Ireland or go independent, do westminster send the troops in? if not and NI become part of I or independent then does Scotland and Wales if they want also get independence.
i see trouble ahead......
so at the moment we have a political party that should not be in power (coalition) with a PM that should not be there and now want to do a u-turn due to throwing their toys out the pram... talk about Holyrood being petty and useless the muppets in Westminster look like the court jesters.
ooohhh and if there is another referendum then thats an admital (sp) that they dont like the leave result so the leave political supporters should resign including the PM and BJ.
littleoldman2
15-12-18, 04:44 PM
A "Norway" type deal is a nonsense. Norway pay quite a lot to the EU. They do this because they sell an awful lot of oil and oil products to the EU, whilst buying a lot less. They effectively rent a barrow in the EU market. We on the other hand buy a lot more than we sell. To compare the position of the UK to that of Norway is like comparing an apple to an elephant.
Edit Source http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2006/september/tradoc_113429.pdf
and https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/
The biggest issue I see is that whatever type of Brexit we leave with, a least 75% of the electorate won't like it. Consequently when all sorts of stuff hits the fan nearly everyone will be blaming everyone else for ending up with something we didn't want. Who in their right minds would take the country down a route where 3/4 of the people feel alienated? Oh yes, sorry, that's what the UK population want. Hence the old saying which sums up the UK/British psyche "We might be poor but at least we're miserable".
I can see grief coming from a people's vote on what is on the table, but at least it would establish a clear head of blame. The questions are fairly easy, one box remain (which as discussed above is a live option for now), one box leave (as it was first time). The only difference then is the second "leave" box has two additional tick-boxes which are for the negotiated deal or no deal, with the option for no preference or tick one. The only choice which counts for in/out is the first box, a binary choice, the secondary boxes will establish which version the Brexiteers want, and that would then be binding, accept it . The voters for remain get no say in which exit version we would choose so could not be blamed for ending up with the "wrong" version.
If it went for remain, then so be it and we suffer the anger of the original 52%. If it went for leave the Brexiteers will get what they want, even if half of them don't want it, and they must all accept the decision. Hey, that's democracy.
dont worry.. when we do get kicked out of the EU with no deal the EU will still get some of their budget.. remember who owns most of the privatised companies in the UK... price hike anyone...
littleoldman2
15-12-18, 07:02 PM
The pretext for a second "peoples" vote (I have no idea if the electorate will be included) is that opinions have changed. As the last vote was leave the proposers can only believe that the people (as opposed to the electorate?) now wish to remain. Before the last vote, everybody thought that remain would win, Cameron hadn't even thought about what to do in the event of leave and had made no preparations for it. They were wrong, what on earth makes them think they are right now?.
If each time the "people" change their collective minds are we going to have another vote or should we just have one every 2/3 years after all we have general elections every 4 years.
Why don't we have a referendum for every budget or any other big change.
It's as stupid as deciding to rerun the 1974 general election now because labour got more seats with less votes then. You cannot turn back the clock, the damage to our relationship with Germany and France is done and as they effectively run the EU we will basically be told to sit quietly in the corner and keep buying our cars. Anyone who believes UK companies will ever get work from EU projects again must be daft.
It must be making things difficult for the SNP who did see leave coming and instructed their supporters to vote stay. If they think the "people's" vote will be stay do they then vote leave in order to be at odds with the UK and get indy ref 2:confused::rolleyes:
SV650rules
15-12-18, 07:15 PM
If another vote was won by remain it would make score 1-1, so would need a tie breaker, and make it best of 3.
littleoldman2
15-12-18, 07:27 PM
and on and on and on
punyXpress
15-12-18, 07:50 PM
'tis the EC way!
So what's the alternative. What exit/trade deal do you want? Is that the deal all the other folk who voted exit want? If there's a difference of opinion, whose fault will it be when stuff goes wrong (which it will at some point). It'll just be finger pointing and disclaimers all round.
Someone has to own the decision, what do you want, and if we get a different exit are you going to just accept it with no grumbles?
punyXpress
15-12-18, 08:30 PM
We will get the deal we are given.
pour encourager les autres the remaining 'members' of the EC will be forever reminded of our folly and shown how the gauleiters deal with those who wish to abscond. They will be forevermore 'rubbing our noses in it'
for having the audacity to defy them!
littleoldman2
15-12-18, 08:37 PM
Why we have bothered trying to have meaningful negotiations I do not know, when from the very outset the Europeans have publicly stated that we cannot be allowed to leave with a deal that is better than staying. They have always been prepared to loose a little when we leave in order not to loose everything when others followed.
I have nothing to add.
maviczap
15-12-18, 08:40 PM
We will get the deal we are given.
pour encourager les autres the remaining 'members' of the EC will be forever reminded of our folly and shown how the gauleiters deal with those who wish to abscond. They will be forevermore 'rubbing our noses in it'
for having the audacity to defy them!
It's to stop the Italians and Greeks from doing the same thing. Wouldn't want a stampede starting would we?
littleoldman2
15-12-18, 08:43 PM
Don't forget the Dutch.
I'll say nowt about the Hungarians.
Talking Heads
15-12-18, 10:13 PM
There are three existing options on the table.
Out with negotiated deal
Out with no deal
Remain in
The only fair and democratic way to proceed from where we are now is a three option referendum.
Let the people choose from the three options which are available.
Talking Heads
15-12-18, 10:22 PM
Except for viewers in Scotland where things are very different
littleoldman2
15-12-18, 10:34 PM
There are three existing options on the table.
Out with negotiated deal
Out with no deal
Remain in
The only fair and democratic way to proceed from where we are now is a three option referendum.
Let the people choose from the three options which are available.
So divide the leave vote, don't think the 52 % who voted leave would be happy with that. I think the only real vote should be between the last two after all we've had one fair and democratic vote.
Having vote after vote till the ruling classes get the result they want should not be allowed, that isn't fair or democratic, it may suit the remainers in this instance but it's a dangerous precedent.
Talking Heads
15-12-18, 10:43 PM
If by "one fair and democratic vote" you mean the EU referendum, you're seriously having a laugh.
The leave campaign broke electoral law and rhe bulk of its claims have been proven to have been lies.
In any other walk of life the vote would have been declared null and void .
littleoldman2
15-12-18, 11:15 PM
We could say the same about almost every election I can remember. Politicians at national level are Scheming, conniving, lying, misleading ****s and that's the nicest thing I can say about them.
The vote is simple, as I suggested earlier, binary leave/remain, and with leave you get to choose which way. Easy. All possible options on the table and the decision is what we all accept. Alternatively we just accept whatever the parliament comes up with, take it not leave it.
The Brexit we're getting is what we voted for, i.e. a blank sheet of paper with terms&conditions to be filled in by our government and enacted by our democratically elected parliament. That's sovereignty for you. Stop moaning, it's what we wanted.
As usual no-one who wants leave has come up with a clear decision as to what form of exit they want, only moans about everyone else. That's been the case for the last 2 1/2 years, and it'll be the case for the next 5, 10, maybe 20yrs. Go on, tell me what you want and persuade me it'll work, maybe I'll support it.
Red ones
16-12-18, 04:37 AM
A long time ago I likened Brexit to a divorce with rules.
You're married. You can choose to remain married or you can choose to divorce. The country chose to divorce according to the rules. Farage, the ****, convinced the country to divorce so it could get a better wife, only the rules for divorcing are these:
You can't start looking for your new wife until you have divorced the last one. The current wife is a bit ****ed off, "you want a new wife, do you? We'll see about that!" She's now talking to the lawyers and making sure we don't go out looking for someone else while she is wanting to keep the house and children.
Farage told us that younger, more attractive women would be queueing up for our attention when we go to the nightclub, but it looks a bit more like we are going to Tuesday night at bingo than Saturday night at Stringfellows.
The wife is now saying, "were you a bit rash? Would you like to stay?" But we're still not sure. We're still thinking a young, attractive, yoga loving gymbunny might pop by our way, or that maybe the no deal night at bingo might just bring the love of our life at the last minute just before the national link game.
I'm a middle aged man with a realistic view on my chances with yoga loving gymbunnies and I've driven past the queue for bingo on a Tuesday night so I've seen who's in it. If I stay with the wife will she eventually just say it was a mid-life crisis and that I should have just bought a sportier bike or dyed my hair?
littleoldman2
16-12-18, 09:37 AM
I was never expecting a deal as a worth while one was never going to happen. We should have been preparing for a no deal exit since the day after the vote. Unfortunately all of our politicians and a great number of our population have put their selfish reasons in front of the common good for the UK as a whole.
why are all female politicians fugly? i would be much happier getting told lies if i was at least getting some eye candy, but no we have to put up with lies and ugly.. its just not cricket.
SV650rules
16-12-18, 11:07 AM
If by "one fair and democratic vote" you mean the EU referendum, you're seriously having a laugh.
The leave campaign broke electoral law and rhe bulk of its claims have been proven to have been lies.
In any other walk of life the vote would have been declared null and void .
Tell me which of their claims have been proven to be lies - the £380million may not be ring-fenced for NHS but it is back in the economy, the Remain campaign spent £900million of taxpayers money on a leaflet that hardly mentioned leave ( except to say it was not the preferred option of the government), and the amount of lies ( really biased forecasts) that project fear came out with ( non of which have proved true except maybe the £ dropping a bit, in fact the reverse to project fear happened with unemployment dropping best part of a million jobs, exports up and economy growing faster than predicted...
There were partisan projections on both sides, the establishment elite tried to put the fear of god into people to prevent a leave vote, but they never expected a leave vote because absolutely no provisions or plans were made for one.
By the way most of the people at the top of the electoral commission ( which is supposed to be fair and neutral) have been outed as staunch remainers ( maybe they work for the BBC on the side) - their investigations were never going to be un-biased. Politicians tell lies before every election but we do not have re-runs of those no matter how close the result, 5 years of a Labour government can do more harm to our economy than leaving the EU with no deal ( the old joke about Labour keeps spending until they run out of other peoples money is actually true). The old crony politicians who would not know democracy if it bit them on the leg have a lot to answer for with their anti-UK pro-EU shenanigens which have emboldened the EU to give us the worst possible deal and let their fifth columnist quislings in UK push for a second referendum, shame on them when was hanging for high treason abolished...
This is a map showing who is signing the petition to leave the EU with no deal:
https://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=229963
It looks like it roughly follows the leave vote with an area from the Wash to the Humber (East Midlands/Lincolnshire) being strongly represented.
Here's a description of Lincolnshire transport links (from Wiki):
"Being on the economic periphery of England, Lincolnshire's transport links are less well developed than many other parts of the United Kingdom"
"Bus services within the county are also limited in number, due to the inherent economic feasibility of serving a scattered population living across an area with low population density."
"The low population density of the county means that the number of railway stations and train services is rather low considering the county's large physical size. A large number of the county's railway stations were permanently closed in the 1950s and 1960s, many following the Beeching Report of 1963."
People here feel a long distance from London, let alone Europe. Europe (EU) is/was something that imposed regulations without any (apparent) benefits. Most of our MPs are Tories and none of them attempted to sell the benefits of the EU (and that's still the case).
Tell me which of their claims have been proven to be lies ("trade deal with EU would be the easiest thing in the world" - Liam Fox if I remember right) - the £380million may not be ring-fenced for NHS but it is back in the economy (Not yet, and we still have to pay for all the bureaucracy and extra processes we will have to do), the Remain campaign spent £900million (I think that was £9million, but hey, £900m sounds better https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35980571 ) of taxpayers money on a leaflet that hardly mentioned leave ( except to say it was not the preferred option of the government), and the amount of lies ( really biased forecasts) that project fear came out with ( non of which have proved true except maybe the £ dropping a bit (15% in round figures, if you call that "a bit", and we'll wait and see what happens when we actually leave) , in fact the reverse to project fear happened with unemployment dropping best part of a million jobs, exports up and economy growing faster than predicted... (and all while we are in the EU, who'd have thought.... )
There were partisan projections on both sides (True), the establishment elite tried to put the fear of god into people to prevent a leave vote (true), but they never expected a leave vote because absolutely no provisions or plans were made for one. (True)
By the way most of the people at the top of the electoral commission ( which is supposed to be fair and neutral) have been outed as staunch remainers ( maybe they work for the BBC on the side) - their investigations were never going to be un-biased. Politicians tell lies before every election but we do not have re-runs of those no matter how close the result, 5 years of a Labour government can do more harm to our economy than leaving the EU with no deal ( the old joke about Labour keeps spending until they run out of other peoples money is actually true). The old crony politicians who would not know democracy if it bit them on the leg have a lot to answer for with their anti-UK pro-EU shenanigens which have emboldened the EU to give us the worst possible deal and let their fifth columnist quislings in UK push for a second referendum, shame on them when was hanging for high treason abolished...
OK, so that's more moaning about everyone else, now what do you want?
Politicians give us propaganda in badly thought out campaigns, so what's new? An awful lot of the causes for folk to want to give the establishment a kicking and so vote leave were not actually EU related at all, but that's what happens, we know that.
Once out of the EU, what is the first "law" that they forced upon us that you want repealed? Which country is first on the trade deal list?
SV650rules
16-12-18, 12:07 PM
("trade deal with EU would be the easiest thing in the world" - Liam Fox if I remember right)
That claim was made after the result was in, about 12 months after IIRC
So £900Million was a typo - the actual amount was £9million, but that was never put onto remain campaign spending even though the governments campaign was massively skewed into scaring the pants off anyone who was thinking of voting leave.
An awful lot of the causes for folk to want to give the establishment a kicking and so vote leave were not actually EU related at all, but that's what happens, we know that.
You are interpreting the result as you like it, I actually wanted out of the EU, it was not about UK 'establishment' but the 'EU establishment' - the one that never knows when to stop with this political integration dressed up with a thin veneer of 'free trade', what other free trade deals in the world give either countries citizens carte blanche to move to the others country without a Visa or normal controls ?
The EU is all about politics - locking countries into trade just facilitates the EU elite in their quest for a political Federal superstate, but that bus has already left we are entering an era of de-globalisation with national identities re-emerging, the globalisation / EU experiment is out of time and will crumble soon anyway, whether we leave or not, but better to leave on our own terms now and get a heads start than get sucked down with a shrinking ( and sinking) ship.
Brexit is the least of the EU's problems at the moment they are being rocked by internal strife from former eastern european countries who do not like the thought of swopping one political master for another one to micro-manage their country, countries like Italy and Greece ( and now Spain) who have borne the brunt of the EU failing to tackle illegal immigration - Macron is finished but is posturing on Brexit to divert attention from Frances problems, Merkell is a dead woman walking - watch this space............
punyXpress
16-12-18, 12:19 PM
" Which country is first on the trade deal list?"
Switzerland,or doesn't it count 'cos we haven't quite left yet ?
SV650rules
16-12-18, 01:33 PM
" Which country is first on the trade deal list?"
Switzerland,or doesn't it count 'cos we haven't quite left yet ?
Also Australia, New Zealand, Japan ( and rest of pacific region https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45780889 ) USA.
Did I tell you about the experiment they did with battery hens ? they opened the door to see what happened - 48% refused to leave the 'shelter' of the battery but 52% jumped out and found the fresh air and new opportunities to their liking, but the 48% inside petitioned the farmer not just to close the door, but to make sure the 52% were made to go back into the battery before the door was closed. The letter to the farmer demanded another 'chickens vote' because the 52% did not know what they were doing and how dangerous it was outside the battery.
Red ones
16-12-18, 03:54 PM
Also Australia, New Zealand, Japan ( and rest of pacific region https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45780889 ) USA.
Did I tell you about the experiment they did with battery hens ? they opened the door to see what happened - 48% refused to leave the 'shelter' of the battery but 52% jumped out and found the fresh air and new opportunities to their liking, but the 48% inside petitioned the farmer not just to close the door, but to make sure the 52% were made to go back into the battery before the door was closed. The letter to the farmer demanded another 'chickens vote' because the 52% did not know what they were doing and how dangerous it was outside the battery.
Can the 48% stay inside while the 52% face the fox tonight?
Red ones
16-12-18, 04:20 PM
Tell me which of their claims have been proven to be lies - the £380million may not be ring-fenced for NHS but it is back in the economy, the Remain campaign spent £900million of taxpayers money on a leaflet that hardly mentioned leave ( except to say it was not the preferred option of the government), and the amount of lies ( really biased forecasts) that project fear came out with ( non of which have proved true except maybe the £ dropping a bit, in fact the reverse to project fear happened with unemployment dropping best part of a million jobs, exports up and economy growing faster than predicted...
Well, the £380million isn't in the economy and cannot be found. It was based on the full membership cost of the EU, however, the rebate is taken off this figure. It's a bit like me giving you £100 a week but you give me a discount of £40. I can't be £100 a week better off by not paying you because I never paid it to you anyway. BUT then a further amount is paid back by the EU to public funds anyway. SO back to that £100 (that I actually only pay £60), you then give me £30 for some projects. i'm still down some money. BUT then there is funding to private industry and for administration costs for spending the remaining sum. At best I can say I'm £30 down a week (against the original claim of £100), but if I sepnd the £70 a week there is a degree of administration I have to pay for, which comes out of the £30 that you kept.
In short, the £380 millioon claim was wide of the mark, its much nearer £120million. If someone tells me they can spend my money so much better but they get their figures that wrong then I don't think they should be anywhere near money.
Sounds big numbers, the difference between £120 million and £380milion, or not? Not as big as the difference between £900million and £9million. £9million may sound big, but divide that across the number of households in the UK (about 26.5million according to the 2011 census), thats £33p a household (less than a stamp)
So, in that one paragraph there are two 'facts' both are lies.
Now where did the leave funding come from? Sounds increasingly like it came from the Kremlin via an non-UK Aaron Banks owned company donation. And yes, the Isle of Man is not in the UK, so that would be an illegal political donation if the criminal investigation confirms the suspicion.
Australia - we better get in the queue http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-4164_en.htm
New Zealand - we better get in the queue http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1806/S00234/eu-and-new-zealand-launch-trade-negotiations.htm
Japan - with a bit of luck we can agree a trade deal as good as the one we are leaving https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japan-eu-trade/eu-japan-conclude-worlds-largest-free-trade-agreement-idUSKBN1E21BT
USA - yes, good luck with that one
littleoldman2
16-12-18, 04:44 PM
Australia - we better get in the queue http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-4164_en.htm
New Zealand - we better get in the queue http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1806/S00234/eu-and-new-zealand-launch-trade-negotiations.htm
Could be a very looonnngggg time coming if the EU performance on the deal with Canada is anything to go by, when the Wallons held Belgium to ransom until they got what they wanted before removing the veto.
A second referendum at this stage might not be such a barmy idea, it has had some supporters in the past https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3rX4nJ0snc
A second referendum at this stage might not be such a barmy idea
please, no... just no.
It took 7 months for the EU referendum law to be put in place and whilst you might be able to piggy back on that legislation it cost £130 million.
https://www.ft.com/content/f0a62bb4-ff9e-11e8-ac00-57a2a826423e
Article 50 would need to be delayed which means going back to the EU and asking for permission since we cannot delay it on our own (but can abandon it which seems odd). The remain voting population have said that the leave voting population were "stupid"; I haven't noticed a collective rise in intelligence since the last vote. Another 6 or 7 months of this? Please no.
Rees-Mogg probably only wants a second referendum because his nanny suggested it.
littleoldman2
16-12-18, 05:50 PM
We did not get a vote each time the EU changed (for example the Lisbon Treaty), why start now. The only reason I can think of for having another referendum is so the ruling classes get their way.
Have any of you remainers thought through what our relationship with the EU would be like. I'm afraid the bridge has been burned and there is no returning to the past. There is no goodwill left. Even before the vote only 4.3% of EU employees were British as opposed to 11.6% of the EU population being British. That is direct employment, the plethora of institutions, bodies and agencies are even worse. I'm afraid the bond of trust is broken. source http://theconversation.com/how-many-people-work-for-the-eu-59702
Remainers make me think of a person dying of cancer using their last days to shout and scream that it's not fair , not right and why me, instead of making peace with themselves, family, friends and God if they have faith.
It's time to pull together to make the most of what we have, not to argue about what we had and what may have been.
Do you want the negotiated-exit-deal or no-deal? If we get the other one, will you be happy to accept that with no further grumbles or wishes that it had gone the other way? Would you prefer to have a say in which deal we go for, on the basis that one of them probably isn't what you had in mind at the referendum?
I agree wholeheartedly with you that the rest of the world's view of the UK has probably been changed irreversibly over this last 2 1/2 years.
It's not really about what we had and what might have been, more a case of what we're going to get and what will be.
littleoldman2
16-12-18, 06:26 PM
If it wasn't for the NI problem, I'd be happy for no deal and fall back on the WTO rules whilst we negotiate with other countries.
Whilst on the subject of Ireland you have to hand it to their politicians who have stayed rock steady together. A lesson for our lot.
One mans view some not all of which I can agree with is this https://www.facebook.com/Fight4Brexit/videos/2701715833179545/?tn-str=k*F
Talking Heads
16-12-18, 06:36 PM
Here's the list of trade deals in place (and pending) that Brexit will remove us from.
There's a lot of them...
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/negotiations-and-agreements/
A very neat solution to the whole Brexit cluster**** appeared on Wings Over Scotland today.
Basically England & Wales declare independence from the UK and immediately get kicked straight out the EU.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/independence-for-england/
A flaw I see with that s the UK debt, far better for Scotland to get our independence and leave you little englanders holding that particular baby as you try to make your way, alone and unloved, in the world.
Do you want the negotiated-exit-deal or no-deal?
If you're asking me; I've reached the "no deal" position. The PM's deal relies on trust that the EU (all 27 countries) will negotiate a trade deal, too bad if we don't like it because the backstop kicks in to protect the Irish soft border for an indeterminate time and binds us. I no longer trust the EU to deal with us fairly.
The countries that fish in our waters have already said they want to ensure they still get free access and will make make sure we don't get a deal without it. So conditions set already and we haven't started talking about trade yet.
Basically England & Wales declare independence from the UK and immediately get kicked straight out the EU
but then you would have a border between Scotland and England which would mean (by EU rules) that it would have to be a hard border; customs checks and vehicle inspections. Since most of Scotland's trade is with England (£45 billion versus £13 billion to EU) it doesn't sound like a valid proposal.
At least Scotland would be able to get rid of the Trident base which the SNP would like.
If Scotland wants independence keep having referendums until you get the answer you want. Rejoin the EU, adopt the Euro (no choice) and have fun. We'll miss you but you grumble as much about England as England does about the EU. Maybe you want to take back control?
littleoldman2
16-12-18, 07:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by littleoldman2 View Post
Source?
UK Treasury
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25712350
Hey remember this, by your reckoning the remaining UK i.e. Scotland and NI would have the dept. Cannot have it both ways ;)
Talking Heads
16-12-18, 07:10 PM
but then you would have a border between Scotland and England which would mean (by EU rules) that it would have to be a hard border; customs checks and vehicle inspections. Since most of Scotland's trade is with England (£45 billion versus £13 billion to EU) it doesn't sound like a valid proposal.
At least Scotland would be able to get rid of the Trident base which the SNP would like.
If Scotland wants independence keep having referendums until you get the answer you want. Rejoin the EU, adopt the Euro (no choice) and have fun. We'll miss you but you grumble as much about England as England does about the EU. Maybe you want to take back control?
Hahaha the old Scotland trade with England vs EU ********.
There simply aren't accurate figures for what goes where leaving Scotland.
Not that it matters, unlike the rest of the UK we export more than we import.
Hard border with England will be fine, keep you ****s out. :D
Likely we won't get rid of the trident base, we'll just invoice you billions to lease it.
(base can't be moved because much of it is buried under a mountain)
And yes, absolutely we do want to take back control.
The big difference is that the EU do not have anything like the same level of control over England that England does over Scotland.
And its high time it ended.
Brexit is serving to educate even the staunchest unionists that westminster simply doesn't give a flying **** about the interests of the people of Scotland.
Indyref2 isn'y a given, there are other legitimate options which could be used. ;)
Talking Heads
16-12-18, 07:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by littleoldman2 View Post
Source?
UK Treasury
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25712350
Hey remember this, by your reckoning the remaining UK i.e. Scotland and NI would have the dept. Cannot have it both ways ;)
Yep that's one very obvious flaw in the idea set out in the WoS article.
I'll be happy for Scotland to leave the UK, can't come soon enough.
Difference between Scot Indy and Brexit, desire for ScotIndy based on reality, desire for Brexit based on lies and racism.
littleoldman2
16-12-18, 07:25 PM
There's another little problem of time.
I'll be happy for Scotland to leave the UK, can't come soon enough.
Difference between Scot Indy and Brexit, desire for ScotIndy based on reality, desire for Brexit based on lies and racism.
Well, I'm glad to see you're not bitter about it :rolleyes: I hope you get what you want and be content.
You will need to curb your spending a bit though, you're running almost 8% deficit of GDP. I think the EU only allows 3%
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/22/scotland-cuts-its-deficit-but-is-still-outspending-the-uk
Talking Heads
16-12-18, 07:33 PM
Oh god no, not the gers figures, you do know what those are and how they came into being?
You don't?
OK, here you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C8trs8mGhk
https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/03/15/more-on-why-gers-might-properly-be-called-crap-data/
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12432586.gers-was-conceived-as-a-political-exercise/
Talking Heads
16-12-18, 07:36 PM
There's another little problem of time.
Sorted. https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/ecj-ruling-article-50
Oh god no, not the gers figures, you do know what those are and how they came into being?
You don't?
OK, here you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C8trs8mGhk
https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/03/15/more-on-why-gers-might-properly-be-called-crap-data/
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12432586.gers-was-conceived-as-a-political-exercise/
well ok, so nobody knows Scotland's GDP or deficit? Won't be that be a problem when it comes to borrowing? Anyway, it's speculation, we still have the Brexit fiasco to deal with first.
Talking Heads
16-12-18, 07:57 PM
Brexit doesn't have to come first, Scotland could be independent before brexit happens.
SV650rules
16-12-18, 08:54 PM
Is Scotland that country with a GDP roughly the same as Yorkshire ?
I read the other day that whatever happens with mainland the Shetland Isle want to to remain part of UK.
Probably because of this https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/scottish-economy-lags-behind-rest-of-uk-with-0-2-growth-2j95qvpg6
And Scottish banks really would have collapsed after 2008 if UK ( ok England ) had not bailed them out at a loss to English taxpayers.
Also bailed out RofI banks, but as they have proved during brexit no good deed ever goes unpunished. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/9813358/British-taxpayers-funded-Irelands-14bn-bail-out.html (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/9813358/British-taxpayers-funded-Irelands-14bn-bail-out.html)
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2010/nov/22/ireland-bailout-uk-lends-seven-billion
You will be needing a currency as well, how does the failing Euro tickle your fancy ?
Biker Biggles
16-12-18, 09:40 PM
Have a little google for Sir Ivan Rogers Nine Lessons of Brexit and tell me what he says isnt true. Its a devastating precis of the last three years events and where they are likey headed. No comfort there for either side of this ludicrous debate.
SV650rules
16-12-18, 09:48 PM
Have a little google for Sir Ivan Rogers Nine Lessons of Brexit and tell me what he says isnt true. Its a devastating precis of the last three years events and where they are likey headed. No comfort there for either side of this ludicrous debate.
Not this Ivan rogers - the establishment arch remainer Europhile who is now seeking to justify his position opposing the result when his job was to carry out the wishes of UK electorate ?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2017/01/03/sir-ivan-rogers-should-replaced-someone-positive-brexit/
Talking Heads
16-12-18, 10:04 PM
Is Scotland that country with a GDP roughly the same as Yorkshire ?
I read the other day that whatever happens with mainland the Shetland Isle want to to remain part of UK.
Probably because of this https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/scottish-economy-lags-behind-rest-of-uk-with-0-2-growth-2j95qvpg6
And Scottish banks really would have collapsed after 2008 if UK ( ok England ) had not bailed them out at a loss to English taxpayers.
Also bailed out RofI banks, but as they have proved during brexit no good deed ever goes unpunished. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/9813358/British-taxpayers-funded-Irelands-14bn-bail-out.html (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/9813358/British-taxpayers-funded-Irelands-14bn-bail-out.html)
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2010/nov/22/ireland-bailout-uk-lends-seven-billion
You will be needing a currency as well, how does the failing Euro tickle your fancy ?
OK, if Scotland is such a basket case, can you please explain exactly why the Westminster government continues to fight tooth and nail to keep a hold of it?
Scotland claims its independence and England is fukt.
Oh and the Scottish banks you speak of were Scottish in name only in 2008.
As for currency, we can use whatever currency we damn well choose.
Biker Biggles
16-12-18, 10:05 PM
Read the text and then discuss what he says,not just attack the person.
littleoldman2
16-12-18, 10:25 PM
OK, if Scotland is such a basket case, can you please explain exactly why the Westminster government continues to fight tooth and nail to keep a hold of it?
Not really noticed, but if they are then they are out of step with the vast majority of the English population who would be happy to see an independent Scotland. That's not my view btw just what I see and hear.
As for currency, we can use whatever currency we damn well choose.
Yes and it worked very well for the Slovenians when they used the DM. Only problem is that you then have no real control over bond and interest rates and I would have thought give the problems experienced by Spain, Greece and lately Italy an independent country would want that control.
Talking Heads
16-12-18, 10:43 PM
I would have thought give the problems experienced by Spain, Greece and lately Italy an independent country would want that control.
Which is why once Scotland is independent it can decide exactly what it wants to do about currency. (and everything else)
Talking Heads
16-12-18, 10:50 PM
Not really noticed, but if they are then they are out of step with the vast majority of the English population who would be happy to see an independent Scotland.
Yep, vast swathes of the English electroate really haven't much of a clue about anything about Scotland.
As an example they still believe the lie of England subsidising Scotland.
Fact is, its the other way round.
Don't get me wrong, I myself am part English, my wife is English and most of my family live there.
Any axe I may be grinding is with the (unfit for purpose) system of government at westminster.
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