View Full Version : AL8 35kW restrictor?
guitar-adam
19-06-20, 06:08 PM
Hey all,
I picked up a 2018 SV650 last week - I thought it seemed a bit low on power compared to other 600s I've ridden in the past but figured it's just how the SV is. While giving it a good clean this week, I found there's a sticker on the frame saying it's got a 35kW ECM fitted.
So my couple of questions are - since the restriction wasn't mentioned in the dealer advert, I'm pretty sure I'm within my rights to return the bike if they can't provide me with a de-restricted ECM? How easy it is to get an un-restricted ECM privately if the dealer are difficult about it?
Cheers,
Adam
SV650rules
19-06-20, 06:44 PM
If they didn't tell you it was restricted ( they may not have known, but pretty lax if they didn't ) you have every right to send it back or ask them to de-restrict it.
Having bought from a dealer you have full rights, you can reject within 30 days for full refund, and any problem you get within 6 months is deemed in law to have been present when they sold it to you.
https://www.bromley.gov.uk/leaflet/122530/17/683/d
depends on how much you paid... top book then yes get them to fix it. bottom book fix it yourself.
guitar-adam
19-06-20, 09:52 PM
depends on how much you paid... top book then yes get them to fix it. bottom book fix it yourself.
I have no idea about how to fix it myself. Back in '06 I had a GSR600 and de-restricting that was just a case of swapping the ECU. If it's the same on the SV then I'm happy to do it if they send me an ECU. If it's more involved then I'm bloody clueless!!
I'd prefer to not take it back to the dealer as it's a 200 mile round trip, for them to do the 5 minute job...
guitar-adam
19-06-20, 09:54 PM
depends on how much you paid... top book then yes get them to fix it. bottom book fix it yourself.
If they didn't tell you it was restricted ( they may not have known, but pretty lax if they didn't ) you have every right to send it back or ask them to de-restrict it.
Having bought from a dealer you have full rights, you can reject within 30 days for full refund, and any problem you get within 6 months is deemed in law to have been present when they sold it to you.
https://www.bromley.gov.uk/leaflet/122530/17/683/d
Thanks for the info! It wasn't mentioned in the online advert nor in any paperwork I have. We'll have to see what they plan on doing about it - I'd rather not return it as I like the bike, I just want the full power!!
SV650rules
20-06-20, 07:06 AM
As far as I can see they didn't disclose that it was restricted when they advertised and sold it - and a dealer cannot claim 'sold as seen' like a private seller or auction house can ( which is why you really have no rights in private / auction sale ). They are deffo responsible for putting the problem right as it makes the bike non-standard, and arguably not fit for your purpose. In any case the restriction is not at all obvious like bald tyres or ripped seat would be.
Ask them nicely to start with as they may well not have been aware of restriction, but follow up any phone calls with a letter ( recorded delivery ) or at least an email so that you and dealer have a record of what was discussed / agreed. If it gets sticky you need a paper trail to show the date you told them you were not satisfied with the bike. Some less than honest dealers will string you out over the 30 days and then say 'phone calls, what phone calls'..... and apart from your phone record showing that you rang their number there is no record of what was actually said. 'a verbal message ain't worth the paper its written on'...
If you paid for motorbike with credit card you have extra protection because the actual transaction is between dealer and credit card company ( you just pay the bill ), and credit card companies carry a lot of clout when it comes to sorting things out, in the past I have repeatedly phoned companies with no result, one call to credit card company and the problem sorted or money back in account within a week....
Each time this comes up I try and figure out how to tell if the ECU is a restricted type but the information is conflicting. If you try and order a new ECU you have to supply a copy of the V5. https://www.fowlersparts.co.uk/parts/5936862/sv650-abs/electrical
I would take the numbers off the ECU and contact Suzuki GB.
I did find this:
"The laws surrounding A2 restrictions are often misunderstood.
There is no legal requirement to have a certificate or documentation to say that the bike has been restricted."
(from here: https://begin-motorcycling.co.uk/a2-motorcycle-licence-indepth-guide/)
This seems stupid imho.
guitar-adam
20-06-20, 08:13 PM
Each time this comes up I try and figure out how to tell if the ECU is a restricted type but the information is conflicting. If you try and order a new ECU you have to supply a copy of the V5. https://www.fowlersparts.co.uk/parts/5936862/sv650-abs/electrical
I would take the numbers off the ECU and contact Suzuki GB.
I did find this:
"The laws surrounding A2 restrictions are often misunderstood.
There is no legal requirement to have a certificate or documentation to say that the bike has been restricted."
(from here: https://begin-motorcycling.co.uk/a2-motorcycle-licence-indepth-guide/)
This seems stupid imho.
I based my guess that it is restricted on 3 things:
1 - it feels significantly slower and low on power compared to any unrestricted 600 I've ever ridden. and about the same as the restricted GSR600 I owned in the mid-2000s
2 - the numbers on the ECU are consistent with other people who have had restricted SV650s
3 - there's a sticker on the frame telling me it has the 35kW ECM fitted.
It's mental that there's no paperwork requirement for a restriction, but since i found the label on the frame, the dealer should've seen it.
I've contacted the dealer and they want me to phone back on Monday so they can get in touch with Suzuki directly and get things sorted while I'm on hold.
I'm not going to pay a penny for the unrestricted ECU - if the dealer tries to charge me, I'll just threaten to return the bike for a refund.
Biker Biggles
20-06-20, 08:23 PM
Id Email the dealer to confirm you have informed them officially. Phone calls are deniable.Then just get them to sort it including any transport issues
......It's mental that there's no paperwork requirement for a restriction, ......
It really comes down to how our laws are written and which apply. The aftermarket restricted thing is really down to our driving license laws, and these require you to ride "in accordance with" your license T&Cs, but there is no specific requirement nor methodology for demonstrating that you are riding "in accordance with".
A bike coming out of a factory will have a "type approval" or homologation document (certificate of conformity etc) and will state its power, which will usually be adequate to demonstrate compliance with your license in any legal scenario, but aftermarket stuff is a different ballgame. Some countries use more regulated systems (Germany/TUV etc), but here we are rather vague. You could take a factory compliant bike and modify it to give more power, when it would potentially mean you are not riding in accordance with your license any more even though the V5C would indicate you were.
Aftermarket stuff (restrictors etc) can be "type approved" where appropriate, and this should usually be enough to demonstrate a given standard, but our licensing laws do not require any such documentation, it's just up to you to comply with the license terms.
Insurance companies can request documentation, but there is no official standard for such paperwork. A dealer can give you a written "statement", but it is not a "certificate" because no-one is actually authorised to "certify" anything, there is no such system. Even a dealer statement only applies to the moment it is given, you could remove the device the next day. You would still have the statement but you would not be riding in accordance with your license, it's your responsibility not the dealer's.
If laws are wanting, blame the politicians, they write them. I think they deliberately leave this one alone because it's a can of worms. Easier to simply leave everyone to muddle through and deal with problems as and when they arise (in court for example).
timwilky
21-06-20, 10:27 AM
To add to what has also been stated. It is also virtually impossible to measure the power should there be a dispute.
It should be at the crank, so no gear train etc. As we no longer have separate gear boxes there is no reasonable method to attach to a dyno. So the only real world testing would have to be on chassis dyno with assumptions made for transmission losses. These assumption then could put you before the magistrate!
To add to what has also been stated. It is also virtually impossible to measure the power should there be a dispute.
It should be at the crank, so no gear train etc. As we no longer have separate gear boxes there is no reasonable method to attach to a dyno. So the only real world testing would have to be on chassis dyno with assumptions made for transmission losses. These assumption then could put you before the magistrate!
A fundamental issue is that under the relevant directive, engine power must be measured at steady state and maintained within a specified tolerance for a minimum period of time (can't remember what it is now, 30sec or something). Nearly all workshop type dynos are inertia rollers which use the principle of accelerating a known inertia and measuring the speed/time, and working backwards to calculate the applied torque and so with speed it can give a power value. Absorption dynos need substantial capital equipment.
I would argue that power determined on an inertia dyno certainly shouldn't be satisfactory as evidence for conviction, it would be like being done for speeding based on a copper pacing out a distance and using a stopwatch. It will give an indicative figure but isn't up to evidential standards.
guitar-adam
07-07-20, 02:21 PM
Update: Spoke to the dealer today and finally got their answer. They can provide an ECU, but want me to travel up to them (4-6 hour, 200 mile round trip) and pay £100 towards the cost of the unit. I also spoke directly to Suzuki and they can sell me one directly through any dealer, for £500.
On the one hand, an 80% discount is appealing - but on the other hand, paying £100 to get the bike how it was advertised feels instinctively wrong. I also value my time, and taking half a day to solve the problem is just plain irritating.
Any advice on what I ought to do?
tell them it was not advertised as restricted so its up to them to rectify. get them to send the ECU in the post and do it yourself then sell the restricted one.
swapping the ecu over is a POP.. it will take all of 10min and all you will need is an alan key to get the side covers and seat off (i assume that the ecu is under the seat next to the battery).
SV650rules
07-07-20, 02:43 PM
Agree with Bibio, they did not advise you of a very important fact when you bought the bike. Are you a member of AA or RAC or similar ? If so approach them with your problem and see what they say. Dealer may want a deposit before they send the ECU to you ( offer them one anyway as sign of your goodwill ), but if they do it for £100 and then refuse to refund deposit you are still quids in both time and fuel wise, and also 200 miles less on your bike oddometer.
Update: Spoke to the dealer today and finally got their answer. They can provide an ECU, but want me to travel up to them (4-6 hour, 200 mile round trip) and pay £100 towards the cost of the unit. I also spoke directly to Suzuki and they can sell me one directly through any dealer, for £500.
On the one hand, an 80% discount is appealing - but on the other hand, paying £100 to get the bike how it was advertised feels instinctively wrong. I also value my time, and taking half a day to solve the problem is just plain irritating.
Any advice on what I ought to do?
You're negotiating, bartering on price now. They've effectively agreed to provide the ECU, so that's a good thing, and you're now needing to thrash out how to make it happen. This is now more a test of nerve rather than right/wrong.
As you instinctively feel and as others have said, I also agree that you should hold out for what you want - resolution at no cost to you by them providing you a new full power ECU. It's not unreasonable and so why should you make any concession? (Ask yourself if you are capable/willing to fit it yourself and bear in mind any warranty terms they may be committed to. You also need to be clear with yourself if you're willing to travel to have them fit it if they offer it for free, or accept the liability if you do it yourself. Prepare the detail of what you're willing to accept.)
It's not an 80% discount on the ECU, it's an extra £100 over the sale price for the bike that you thought you'd agreed (Remember, you will only end up with the same as what you expected to have in the first place.)
You have leverage because you have the threat that you will reject the sale and land the bike back with them for a refund (which is a problem for them - no profit + extra cost).
Don't be afraid to let them know about the inconvenience to you and suggest to them that they need to find a better solution, e.g. a day off work plus travel cost (fuel etc.) plus the £100 contribution they want is getting close to the cost of a new unit so how can you possibly agree, it's uneconomic for you because it leaves you inconvenienced and out of pocket? I was always taught that no deal is better than a bad deal. (And that's nowt to do with Brexit.)
I would suggest being prepared to send back the restricted ECU (but only after you have a full power one from them and fitted) but don't offer it unprompted, wait for them to remember to ask.
SV650rules
08-07-20, 06:56 AM
I think for a good outcome there needs to be give and take on both sides, maybe dealer really did not realise bike was restricted, and I guess dealer profits on bikes may not be huge with so much competition around these days.
I think for a good outcome there needs to be give and take on both sides, maybe dealer really did not realise bike was restricted, and I guess dealer profits on bikes may not be huge with so much competition around these days.
I suspect I'm not as charitable when it comes to business. Is it a "good outcome" for the OP if he has to unexpectedly contribute more to get what he thought he had in the first place?
I'm not accusing the dealer of being underhand and I wouldn't try to be cruel or vindictive, but there's no need to subsidise a business entity when they make mistakes, however innocent.
I just think there's a difference between consequence and punishment. In this case, I think the consequences (i.e. replace the ECU) need to lie pretty much fully with the dealer, as a result of their misrepresentation. Is that really too harsh?
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