View Full Version : Leave it on the shelf
SV650rules
13-12-20, 12:36 PM
About time the UK population got a little bit more discerning about what they buy. The so called free trade in the EU consisted of the UK ( a natural free two-way trade nation ) opening their markets while the other countries just pretended to open their markets. Remember when we joined the Common market and our industries were 'shared out' by quota to other members, which decimated our industrial base ? Time to call time on our spending habits - the reason UK is known in EU as 'treasure island'.
http://www.leaveitontheshelf.co.uk/
Craig380
13-12-20, 03:14 PM
And the point is? Looking at cars, for example, Mini produces some components for its cars in the UK. And it's fine to buy the the Mini hatch, Clubman, Coupe and Roadster, as they are assembled at BMW's plant in Cowley, England. But DON'T buy a Mini Convertible or Countryman, as they are assembled at VDL Nedcar in the Netherlands? It's called a global manufacturing economy.
And then there's the small issue of Mini only existing because BMW bought Rover, which owned the brand, after good old British Aerospace flogged Rover off in 1994. Nothing to do with nasty EU members plundering the UK: more the willingness of UK companies to sell off assets and get ready cash.
BMW lost billions in the Rover bankruptcy, but saved Mini and made a success of it - saving UK jobs in the process. If you want to blame anyone for 'decimating our industrial base,' look no further than ignorant and out-of-touch management boards of British Leyland etc, and politicians selling off former nationalised industries in the name of 'competition.'
The UK is no longer the manufacturing country we once were many, many moons ago. Things can, and are built better and cheaper elsewhere for a reason.
We are more of a service and Financial industry. Building things on an Island is not a good idea with having to fly, ship, or Road components in and goods out. That's lots of extra costs to incur on products which don't command high profit margins for anyone involved along the production lines.
As Craig has touched on, the success of companies relies on them being managed correctly and being held to account when the brown stuff hits the fan. Look at all the recent (5 years) companies from the High Street to go; Thomas Cook, Debenhams, Arcadia Group, . . . the Billionaire owners are fine but the 100's of employees are out of jobs.
On the subject of EU trade - I've tried to bet my (Tory) MP a tenner that BoZo will concede by year's end. I cannot understand if, as stated today, "we're very far apart" then why bother keep talking since we were "very far part" last week and the week before that and nothing's changed. Are we relying on attrition to grind the EU down (or vice versa)? Obviously it's important but someone ultimately has to yield and in this situation neither side can afford to.
SV650rules
13-12-20, 04:26 PM
BMW only bought Rover group up for the 4x4 tech of Landrover, they stopped the group building cars that competed with BMW models, the X3 and X5 BMW models came into being as a result of Landrover tech. BMW kept mini in UK for the 'made in Britain' credentials, BMW rely a lot on the made in Britain bit, even down to union flag rear lights and on the roof. Lots of quality car parts made in UK, don't be too quick to run us down. Honda had a big tie up with rover, but UK government would not let them buy Rover group, a lot of Honda tech fell into BMW hands, how do I know this - I worked for an automation company show as a major supplier to automotive industry, in UK and around the world.
Note massive trade deficit UK has with Europe, and large trade surplus UK has with rest of world. EU want to hang onto fishing rights and also City of London financial sector as pretty much every Euro transaction underwritten by London, the ECB is all but bankrupt and could not underwrite a cup of coffee. Paris and Frankfurt been trying to steal financial services from London for a long time, but they do not have the language, laws and financial infrastructure to do it.
We have so much going for us in UK, scandalous for the EU to try to keep us as a vassal state to stop us competing with them, Germany in particular could well go into deep recession if UK trade interrupted too much.
The problem the EU have is they can't make it easy for us - even if that benefits them. If the one of the largest countries walks out with a pat on the back, the rest of the group would do the same if it got them better terms/more favourable agreements.
Sir Trev
13-12-20, 08:30 PM
The problem the EU have is they can't make it easy for us - even if that benefits them. If the one of the largest countries walks out with a pat on the back, the rest of the group would do the same if it got them better terms/more favourable agreements.
This.
I work with a lot of NHS Supply Chain folks (closet civil servants) and we often discuss the possibility that a deal has been done already and are both sides posturing to make it look like it's a nightmare so Greece, Italy, and flip knows who else don't follow us straight out of the door. I would not be surprised.
SV650rules
14-12-20, 12:14 PM
All this worrying about others leaving is that the EU is political system, trade became secondary to politics and idealogy a long time ago. There is no doubt that over its existence the EU has been one of the most protectionist trading blocs ever, with its own markets protected and subsidized ( remember common agricultural policy and the beef, butter, cheese mountains and wine and milk lakes ). The French were always the largest beneficiaries of the CAP, and the Germans are the biggest beneficiaries of the Euro, which again defies the normal laws of fiscal and economics - with large industrial countries tied to the same currency as tourist based countries. The ECB is pretty well bankrupt. I still do not think the EU politburo understand trade and economics but they certainly understand politics and control. More countries are kicking back against the centralised control of the EU, especially the former soviet bloc countries who see the EU as another form of centralised control that they fought for decades to get out of.
ethariel
14-12-20, 01:05 PM
The problem the EU have is they can't make it easy for us - even if that benefits them. If the one of the largest countries walks out with a pat on the back, the rest of the group would do the same if it got them better terms/more favourable agreements.
It's not so much that the EU can't make it easy for us, it's finding a common ground all 27 nations within the EU will agree to.
Drop in one thing that 26 like and the 27th does not, scratch that from the list.
Trying to get 2 countries to agree to something is a miracle let alone 27 agreeing to something to offer someone else.
The EU view has always been 'UK will back down in the end and take whatever scraps we toss thier way as they have no backbone' OOPS!
SV650rules
14-12-20, 01:16 PM
It's not so much that the EU can't make it easy for us, it's finding a common ground all 27 nations within the EU will agree to.
Drop in one thing that 26 like and the 27th does not, scratch that from the list.
Trying to get 2 countries to agree to something is a miracle let alone 27 agreeing to something to offer someone else.
The EU view has always been 'UK will back down in the end and take whatever scraps we toss thier way as they have no backbone' OOPS!
A small area of Belgium made a deal with Canada pretty much impossible for a long time. protectionism again - the EU is a massive oil tanker with 27 captains each with their own set of controls, each with their red lines, mind you if Germany says jump the other 26 ask 'how high' - Germany lost the war, but they won the peace.....mainly through controlling the EU.
It's not so much that the EU can't make it easy for us, it's finding a common ground all 27 nations within the EU will agree to.
Drop in one thing that 26 like and the 27th does not, scratch that from the list.
Trying to get 2 countries to agree to something is a miracle let alone 27 agreeing to something to offer someone else.
The EU view has always been 'UK will back down in the end and take whatever scraps we toss thier way as they have no backbone' OOPS!
The EU negotiates on behalf of all the countries i would assume - rather than the UK negotiating everyone individually . . . . . . all the trade deals done with the EU now are probably not a winner for all so there has to be a compromise where overall the Bloc is happy.
chris8886
14-12-20, 10:27 PM
It's not so much that the EU can't make it easy for us, it's finding a common ground all 27 nations within the EU will agree to.
Drop in one thing that 26 like and the 27th does not, scratch that from the list.
Trying to get 2 countries to agree to something is a miracle let alone 27 agreeing to something to offer someone else.
The EU view has always been 'UK will back down in the end and take whatever scraps we toss thier way as they have no backbone' OOPS!
I was unsure, so voted to remain, but by god am I grateful that we're leaving having seen the attitude of the EU in trying to negotiate a deal and that complete p**** Barnier is an utter joke. By the sounds of reports I've heard the sides actually make some progress whenever he is not there! The sooner we're out the better if it's with a deal that's good for us, but if not then I'm completely confident that we as a country will manage to stand our own two feet.
On the above, since when in time, has anyone ever known of getting that many countries to all agree something? Rather than a majority which is how it's always been done in this country before. If you don't rule by majority (whether you like the majority or not (and if you don't, you have the chance to vote the previous lot out at the next election)), then you just end up getting nothing done and pleasing no one at all. So getting a deal from the start I believe to be almost impossible!
keith_d
15-12-20, 10:33 AM
This is a complicated issue in so many ways. Fisheries are something of a red herring (pun intended) given the small number of people involved in the industry on both sides. The arguments about fish are really a side issue to the bigger problems both sides face.
Economically, it would benefit both parties to reach a deal. However, to retain fair competition the EU (and the UK) need to agree on some ground rules so that neither gets an unfair advantage. However, getting the UK to agree to fiscal rules which they no longer have any input in creating is unlikely.
Politically, the EU needs to discourage other members from leaving. So they can't be seen to give the UK a good deal or we might see Greece or Italy trying to do the same. I still remember one of the senior EU politicians saying that the UK would have to be 'punished' shortly after the Brexit result was announced.
Financially, we have ongoing commitments for things like pensions to people who were employed while we were members. Plus there will be a big hole in the EU budget because we were a net contributor. The EU policy of 'all or nothing' agreement will break any efforts to deal with these areas.
Internally, the UK's departure is a mixed blessing for the Eurocrats. We were frequently a thorn in the side of the 'ever closer integration' proponents, but Brexit also highlights discontent with the whole United States of Europe project. So in the short term they may be able to heap a lot of blame on the UK for various problems, but in the medium term they still need to sell integration to voters throughout Europe or it could all fall in a heap.
In the next few weeks, I'm expecting no deal because the chances of getting all 23 remaining members to agree to anything is slim. Big EU agreements are only reached after a lot of behind the scenes horse trading and that doesn't happen quickly. But both sides do need a deal so hopefully the countries holding the EU purse strings will manage to push something through by this time next year.
Just my thoughts,
Keith.
SV650rules
15-12-20, 11:00 AM
This is a complicated issue in so many ways. Fisheries are something of a red herring (pun intended) given the small number of people involved in the industry on both sides. The arguments about fish are really a side issue to the bigger problems both sides face.
Fishing is really about sovereignty, not the fish - if you do not control your territorial waters what do you control.....
Craig380
15-12-20, 03:19 PM
That ship sailed (pun intended again) after the Cod Wars, really.
A fishy business, don't take all the propaganda at face value.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52420116
.... and we have already signed a framework agreement with Norway to allow each other to have quotas to fish in each other's waters, so we are not exactly against the principle of other countries having access to "our" fish (note - it is a very thin document indeed https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/927151/CS_Norway_1.2020_UK_Norway_Framework_Agreement_on_ Fisheries.pdf
........ Germany in particular could well go into deep recession if UK trade interrupted too much.
Not sure Germany will collapse if their trade with the UK reduces a bit, we take 6% of Germany's exports, and 3.8% of their imports are from the UK. Even if exports to us halved it wouldn't be the end of the world for them, and they are quite well placed to substitute markets.
https://oec.world/en/profile/country/deu#:~:text=Destinations%3A%20In%20August%202020%2 C%20Germany,France%20(%E2%82%AC4.16B).
I don't understand why everyone is so worked up about the prospect of WTO (aka "Australian style"), our venerable leader Mr.BJ has stated quite categorically that we'll do well and prosper under these terms, and he never lies. With our government in control, what could possibly go wrong?
(warning - propaganda article - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-lies-conservative-leader-candidate-list-times-banana-brexit-bus-a8929076.html
i still dont understand the whole 'deal' thing.
keith_d
16-12-20, 08:52 AM
i still dont understand the whole 'deal' thing.
By default the EU imposes tarrifs on a wide range of imports to protect local producers. Those tarrifs will apply to imports from the UK unless we reach a deal to allow unfettered access to the single market.
The EU have decided they want an 'everything or nothing' approach to these negotiations so we are unlikely to reach an agreement before the end of the year.
Those tarrifs will apply to imports from the UK unless we reach a deal to allow unfettered access to the single market.
To eliminate/reduce tariffs through a trade deal the UK must agree to follow all EU regulations on producing the product from chemicals used to worker safety to product subsidies. The UK must also agree to the "ratchet" which means that if the EU tightens the regulations we must automatically follow.
Linked to this is what happens if we initially agree but then let standards slide. The EU initially wanted automatic penalties, then said the European courts must decide whereas we wanted an independent arbitrator.
Deal or no deal it's going to get more expensive.
i still dont understand the whole 'deal' thing.
We were members of the golf club. We left (and really ought to settle the outstanding bar tab even though we don't think we should have to), but we still want to play a round or two whenever we want and not have to pay for it nor be restricted on how much we play. The golf club say OK, but we have to agree to abide by the rules for all the existing members and if the rules change we have to agree to abide by the new rules. We don't think we should have to, we don't wan't to be told what to do on the course by some tin-pot upstart golf club committee who think they have the right to run the place in the interests of the club members. That's the essence.
my point is that during the referendum the uk public were not told about this 'deal'. the uk public told their government to leave the eu, not to come up with a deal. if the uk public had wanted that we would have employed chris tarrant to do it for us. its politicians milking the goat for their bum chums.
btw just wait till you see the price of 'white goods' next year, a £300 washing machine will be £400+ and the gov will blame covid.....
btw just wait till you see the price of 'white goods' next year, a £300 washing machine will be £400+ and the gov will blame covid.....
If EU produced and no deal, then likely. The UK has signed a continuity deal with Sth Korea so their prices shouldn't change (if you can get them through the ports delays). Beko products I think are Turkish which is outside the EU.
Regarding fish, some of the bigger trawlers are Dutch but have been registered in Hull...
Somebody is going to make money out of the Brexit debacle, but it won't be us.
... the referendum the uk public were not told about this 'deal'. .....
The public signed a blank contract, T&Cs to be completed later by politicians.
SV650rules
16-12-20, 08:46 PM
The public signed a blank contract, T&Cs to be completed later by politicians.
The Cameron government did their best to persuade everyone to vote remain, to the extent of spending £9 million on leaflet to every household telling them to, and they accused leave of exceeding spending limits...... it was a massive shock to our politicians and EU when leave won...
The public signed a blank contract, T&Cs to be completed later by politicians.
^^^ this. Like with every General Election - they are all a wish list, not promises or a binding contract to which they are held accountable, or have any repercussions from.
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