Log in

View Full Version : City cars


Seeker
17-01-21, 11:48 AM
Does anyone have any experience of Asian city cars? I inherited my Dad's Yaris a couple of years ago, it's now 11 years old but has only done 34k miles. It's been fairly reliable although it requires a new a/c condensor at the moment which I'm not bothering to replace and the gearbox is awful (or, as Toyota describe it: normal). I'm thinking about changing it once lockdown ends or late Spring. I only use a car once or week or so - even less in lockdown so a city car will work well. An electric car would fit my needs but they're too expensive and electric cars tend to be bigger (to have space for the batteries?)

I've owned a few Toyotas over the years (and one Honda) and they have all been very reliable. I don't want a European car which makes buying an Aygo a bit problematic since they're assembled in the EU on the same production line as the Citroen C1/Peugeot108.

My neighbour has owned a couple of Kia Picanto and I've driven the newer one a couple of times and it seems ok - it has a 3 cylinder engine as do most city cars so it's not as smooth at idle. The gearbox is head and shoulders better than the Yaris - but I've driven an Aygo loaner car and that gearbox was better too (than the Yaris). She's not had any faults with either of her Picanto.

The Suzuki Ignis looks a bit different in this segment but is more expensive than a Toyota and I'm not sure they're as reliable.

embee
17-01-21, 04:46 PM
I'll just throw in my personal experiences FWIW.
I've been "looking after" 4 examples of the Aygo/107 over the last 7 or 8yrs for friends.
Things I've had to do -
one new rad (leaking header tank on an early 107, relatively common fault, later cars no issue), cheap and very easy to do, £50ish from Eurocarparts.
2 water pumps, again not that unusual but cheap and easy to do. Very early ones were a pressed steel backplate and problematic, later were cast alum and much better.
2 sets of front brakes, they rust when not in regular use, especially on the inside face as they don't have a shield. Cheap and easy to do, £70 for discs+pads.
1 indicator switch became intermittent, the contact surfaces get dirty (quite common issue). Pretty easy to take apart and clean contact strips, then no further problems, youtube tutorials invaluable.
1 hazard warning switch stopped working, fairly common fault, £20 from ebay supplier, 5mins to swap. Might be possible to take them apart to clean contacts but hardly worth the effort.
Water in rear lamp housing, again common, easily fixed with some silicone sealant to stop water running down from tailgate onto the back of the light unit.
Very early ones had tailgate leaks but I've not come across that.
Condensation in headlamps (2 cars), both caused when they had them washed at a carwash and they used pressure washers. Don't do it. Dried out and no further problem.
Rear brakes squeak when the dust needs brushing out, simple job.

They are cheap and cheerful cars, great for a runaround, good front seat space, surprisingly competent on motorways up to 70mph, pretty tinny in feel, a city car which has some faults but very easy to work on and cheap to fix the problems you might get. Very low running costs. Rather like a modern capable version of the original Mini, go-kart feel. I certainly wouldn't advise against one, running costs are very low even if you do need to fix a couple of things. Make sure the bodywork is clean.

The VW Up (and clones) gets rather better owner reviews, but slightly more expensive.

I looked into early Hyundai i10 examples for someone who wanted a very cheap car to sit at a second home. They had quite a lot of big-ish issues in the early days (brakes, suspension, electricals) looking at 10yr old car MOT histories. Later ones seem much improved.

redtrummy
17-01-21, 06:42 PM
Seem to recall that Suzuki do well in customer satisfaction surveys. The Lads fiancée has a Skoda Citygo 2012. That has been very good. In the 3 years we have known her the only problem has been a sticky handbrake in freezing conditions, which was resolved by greasing the friction points.

Dave20046
17-01-21, 11:27 PM
I know not a lot about electric/new models. But if I was getting a little run around and main priority was reliability I'd get a Honda (Jazz?) or Suzuki (Swift?). Last time I checked VW/Skoda build quality had dropped off but the price-tag hadn't. Not sure about Toyota's , Yaris used to be fairly bulletproof but toyota had the spate of recalls not tooo long ago. Nissan would be worth looking at too.

embee
18-01-21, 12:18 AM
..... But if I was getting a little run around and main priority was reliability I'd get a Honda (Jazz?) or Suzuki (Swift?). ....

Swift is generally liked and good reliability levels.
The Mk1 (02-08 ) Jazz will get the catalyst cut off by pikeys (try a google search), the mk2 (08-15) was probably the most reliable version of all, but I'd say it is a good size up from a city car. I have a mk3 (facelift) 2018 Jazz and it is not a small car by any means, great if you want interior space but I wouldn't recommend it as a city car, if that's what you are really after (4m long, 1.7m wide, 1.5m high), a lot bigger than my mk1 Yaris.

GeorgeRYoung
18-01-21, 12:32 AM
My 2009 Yaris has about 130,000 km and seems to work fine. It's my only car, not just a city car. Plan to keep it running until it falls apart.


Gearbox is a 5-spd standard, seems ok.

Seeker
18-01-21, 10:21 AM
I had a really bad experience with a VW: 3 cylinder heads, new inlet valves, new crankshaft, new oil pump, frequent front suspension rebuilds, carburetor icing issues. All in 30k miles. I won't buy another VW/Audi/Skoda/SEAT, ever.
I liked the original Yaris - my Dad has had several Yarissss over the years - all have been reliable, but they've grown in size. His previous one was a 5 speed (1.3l) and it was much better than the 6 speed (1.33l) in terms of gearbox action. I added molyslip which has helped but it doesn't like cold weather, nor changing from 3rd to 2nd and occasionally neutral to 1st from a standstill (usually at traffic lights).

I'll just throw in my personal experiences FWIW.
I've been "looking after" 4 examples of the Aygo/107 over the last 7 or 8yrs for friends.

What kind of mileage are on these Aygos? I would expect a water pump to last 100k miles.

I was reading that Toyota were due to take over the Toyota/Peugeot/Citroen joint owned Czech assembly plant this year (2021) and the 108/C1 were going to be discontinued.

embee
18-01-21, 12:30 PM
The first water pump on a 107 was one of the early pressed steel ones, which leaked and was a relatively common problem. Mileage was somewhere round 30k I think (a long time ago now).
The other one on an Aygo was changed when the drive belt started occasionally squealing, one time the owner called out the AA who very competently assessed it, the belt was fine, and concluded it was most likely the water pump bearing based on their experience, other things like A/C compressor and alternator almost never give any issues on the Aygo apparently. I changed the pump and no further issues, not 100% certain that was the problem but very probable. I think it was around 30-40k mls. The later alum pumps are generally OK.

ethariel
18-01-21, 03:45 PM
What about the little Merc Smart cars, a lot of the newer models are electric?

Dave20046
19-01-21, 02:20 PM
Swift is generally liked and good reliability levels.
The Mk1 (02-08 ) Jazz will get the catalyst cut off by pikeys (try a google search), the mk2 (08-15) was probably the most reliable version of all, but I'd say it is a good size up from a city car. I have a mk3 (facelift) 2018 Jazz and it is not a small car by any means, great if you want interior space but I wouldn't recommend it as a city car, if that's what you are really after (4m long, 1.7m wide, 1.5m high), a lot bigger than my mk1 Yaris.

True I did wonder if I was suggesting cars that are too big. I test drove a newer Jazz for someone and it drove suprisingly well but I was well impressed with the interior space and seat folding down mech.
What's the positive of going for something smaller than Swift size, weight and fuel economy/tax? Parking spots? Pricetag? Safety? When I see the tiny little Lupo's etc I often think they'd need more mass in an accident or they'll just take the brunt of all energy an impact with a 'regular' car would generate - appreciate there's a good chance my physics may be way off.

Red Herring
19-01-21, 07:12 PM
I really see little merit in changing something that is working well simply because it's "old".
Worn out yes, becoming unreliable yes, but simply on age?

When I was working and commuting 100 miles a day I had a 330 BMW because it was fast, reliable, good on fuel and actually quite cheap to run for the kind of driving I was doing (90%) motorway. I sold it a week after I retired.

I've still got my 1999 Landcruiser which has only just rolled 100k, and my 1994 MX5 which hasn't yet got to 80k. They both do exactly what I need from a car, have been 100% reliable, owe me absolutely nothing and cost me pretty much the same to maintain..... My biggest worry with the way the eco warriors are going is that I'm not going to be allowed to keep them on the road soon because they have "old" emission standards.

embee
19-01-21, 10:17 PM
I really see little merit in changing something that is working well simply because it's "old".....

True indeed, but sometimes you just want a change. Let's face it we change our bikes for little real reason, we don't "need" anything more than a 20yr old CB500, but we "want" wizz-bangs. I know it goes against the grain for certain geographical stereotypes, but sometimes some of us just want to spend some cash ("Eee, money's not for spending, lad").
There are some real world advantages in modern cars, particularly safety related. A 20+ yr old car which rated 4 or 5 stars when new would probably struggle to even get on the rating scale nowadays.
Small cars are great for short urban trips, I'd have one if I didn't want to tow a trailer (things like Aygo/Up aren't homologated for towing, though bizarrely you can get a "towbar" for the UP which can be used for a cycle carrier.... but not a trailer).
I keep my 20yr old Yaris because it's worth nothing but very useful as a workhorse (and towing the trailer), but it doesn't even have ABS let alone all the other safety gizmos (just 2 airbags in front). The Jazz has nearly all the knobs and whistles going.

Red Herring
20-01-21, 09:38 AM
True indeed, but sometimes you just want a change. Let's face it we change our bikes for little real reason, we don't "need" anything more than a 20yr old CB500, but we "want" wizz-bangs......


And if the OP was talking about something exciting I would sort of get that argument, but he's looking for something small reliable and cheap.......

I don't think there are many new city cars that will be significantly "safer" than a ten year old Yaris, and if you want to argue a case on eco grounds I doubt the increased carbon footprint generated by driving the older car into the ground would be any worse than that caused by the production of the new car and the disposal of the old one.

Pretty much the only gain from continually updating your vehicle is had by the manufactures and supply chain. I prefer to spend my money on enjoying what I have!

ethariel
20-01-21, 10:40 AM
PCP the bane of our lives, New for barely used with a 40-50% of the new price millstone hanging round your neck when the agreement is up.

Seeker
20-01-21, 10:49 AM
And if the OP was talking about something exciting I would sort of get that argument, but he's looking for something small reliable and cheap.......

I don't think there are many new city cars that will be significantly "safer" than a ten year old Yaris, and if you want to argue a case on eco grounds I doubt the increased carbon footprint generated by driving the older car into the ground would be any worse than that caused by the production of the new car and the disposal of the old one.

Pretty much the only gain from continually updating your vehicle is had by the manufactures and supply chain. I prefer to spend my money on enjoying what I have!

OP here: I don't need to change it. I inherited the car from my late Dad and he was disappointed in it compared to his previous Yaris. Why? As mentioned previously the gearbox is not pleasant to use in the lower gears. There's a suggestion on the Yaris forum that there's an issue with the slip rings on the synchromesh but Toyota won't recall the cars but have modified the design. It affects the 6 speed, the previous Yaris was a 5 and was fine. My Dad was also surprised (annoyed) to find that the new 1.3 Yaris was taxed in a higher bracket (more CO2? I never checked). The Yaris dash on these older models is in the centre of the dash - on the previous model it was digital and clearly legible - on this one it's analog with a red on orange display which cannot be seen in sunshine.

The car isn't in bad condition (for 11 years old) but Dad was still driving at 90 years old (I tried to stop him) and navigating the gateposts was proving difficult unless he did it by contact :rolleyes: - there's a few minor scrapes. I also dropped the Z900RS on it which has scraped the bumper (the bikes ok though in case you were worried). The a/c condenser has a hole in it and new one is £500 (from Toyota) and it's still on its original battery (after 11 years! - amazing).

The car is bigger than what I need - I'm small, don't carry passengers and a narrower car would help with moving my bikes around although it's not a big deal.

I'm fortunate inasamuch as money isn't an issue. I am seriously worried* that our country's economy is screwed and I think people like me, if they have the money to spare, should spend it because younger people have been badly shafted and frequently don't have the cash to spend. Ideally, this would be on UK products but there isn't a small UK car, so the next best thing is helping the local dealer.

* I worry about a lot of things.

Dave20046
21-01-21, 09:55 AM
re. that last paragraph. Hats off to you sir :salut: