The Covid19 thread

[svenrico]

I had mine a week and a half ago now and have had the occaisional day feeling lethargic and a bit run down. A couple of nights of feversish sleeps too. Yesterday I felt awful. Very run down and had that feeling where your chest aches a bit and you can really feel where your lungs are. Also an achy neck and shoulders. Hopefully means it's having some effect.
I am not a doctor but maybe you should get your heart checked out.

[Adam Ef]

My heart is the reason I got the vaccination early.


+ Feeling much better today.

[DJ123]

In had my first Jab today - AZ dose. I certainly feel pretty crap straight after; chills/fever fairly soon after & a headache. plus a very dead arm too! Hopefully by tonight/overnight i'll feel more normal again.

[R1ffR4ff]

I had my AZ just over 3 weeks ago. No real side effects to speak of except a little bit of sore muscle around my knee joints but that may not be related.

My 10 penn'th.

[DJ123]

In had my first Jab today - AZ dose. I certainly feel pretty crap straight after; chills/fever fairly soon after & a headache. plus a very dead arm too! Hopefully by tonight/overnight i'll feel more normal again.

The next day i was feeling a bit better, but felt a bit run down. Today (2 days after) i feel fine - still a bit of a sore arm, but the rest of me feels normal.

[svenrico]

Any bets that the EU won't c**k up the whole vaccination programme in the UK and those of us who have had the first dose won't now get the second dose in the required time !

[svenrico]

The UK signed the contract with AZ a day later than the EU signed theirs.
https://www.politico.eu/article/the-key-differences-between-the-eu-and-uk-astrazeneca-contracts/
'The U.K. contract was signed on August 28, while the EU’s was signed a day earlier on August 27.
However, the key lies in an earlier agreement that AstraZeneca made back in May with the U.K., which was a binding deal establishing “the development of a dedicated supply chain for the U.K.,” an AstraZeneca spokesperson said.
One official close to the U.K. contract said the agreement began as an email in April from the U.K. government saying it would provide £65 million to help the University of Oxford execute its production plan. It later evolved into a fully-fledged contract between the government and the British-Swedish company, which also might explain why it took until August for the contract to be signed.
Most important, however, is that it meant that the British government was “effectively a major shareholder” in the jab’s development as early as April. After Oxford and AstraZeneca agreed to team up at the end of April, for example, the British government filled seats on Oxford-AstraZeneca joint liaison committees. 'end of QUOTE
Sounds to me like the EU have made a pig's ear of it and they are now trying to change the rules.
ps apparently Italian police have seized a consignment of AZ vaccines they thought was destined for Mexico and Canada when it was actually going to EU countries. What right have they to do that anyway wherever it was going ?!
pps and why are they now referring to the 'UK variant' of the virus, as if Britain is responsible for it. I thought it came from China!

[svenrico]

Am I jumping the gun ? I had it in my mind that I could start riding again tomorrow without fear of being fined or whatever but now I am not sure about 'stay at home' or ' essential travel only' still being applicable !!!

[svenrico]

'Changes on 29 March
Social contact
The evidence shows that it is safer for people to meet outdoors rather than indoors. And this is why from 29 March, when most schools start to break up for the Easter holidays, outdoor gatherings (including in private gardens) of either 6 people (the Rule of 6) or 2 households will also be allowed, making it easier for friends and families to meet outside.

Business and activities
Outdoor sports facilities such as tennis and basketball courts, and open-air swimming pools, will also be allowed to reopen, and people will be able to take part in formally organised outdoor sports.

Travel
The ‘stay at home’ rule will end on 29 March but many restrictions will remain in place. People should continue to work from home where they can and minimise the number of journeys they make where possible, avoiding travel at the busiest times and routes. Travel abroad will continue to be prohibited, other than for a small number of permitted reasons. Holidays abroad will not be allowed, given it will remain important to manage the risk of imported variants and protect the vaccination programme. The government has launched a new taskforce to review global travel which will report on 12 April.'

[embee]

'The U.K. contract was signed on August 28, while the EU’s was signed a day earlier on August 27.
However, the key lies in an earlier agreement that AstraZeneca made back in May with the U.K., which was a binding deal establishing.......

Sounds to me like the EU have made a pig's ear of it and they are now trying to change the rules.

..... and why are they now referring to the 'UK variant' of the virus, as if Britain is responsible for it. I thought it came from China!

An agreement was made between AZ and the EU commission in June 2020, prior to the contract of August, according to https://www.astrazeneca.com/media-centre/press-releases/2020/astrazeneca-to-supply-europe-with-up-to-400-million-doses-of-oxford-universitys-vaccine-at-no-profit.html

The argument was that AZ signed the contract with the EU including two critical clauses, as described in https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56486733
I have read the EU/AZ contract and these items are stated categorically, and AZ signed up to them.
Viz.
"They say the EU-AstraZeneca contract promised:
to ensure vaccine deliveries to the EU using production facilities in both the EU and UK
an assurance from AstraZeneca that it had no other contracts which could get in the way of it fulfilling its commitments to the EU"

I guess the variants are referred to by country of origin for simplicity, UK/South Africa/Brazil. They have scientific references for precision. I have not seen or heard any discussion regarding the coincidence that the 3 variants which appear to be of concern are the UK/SA/Brazil and AZ carried out their trials in UK/SA/Brazil. Pure coincidence I am sure. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)32661-1/fulltext

[Seeker]

Wasn't the EU, Astra-Zeneca contract written under Belgian law whereas the UK, Astra-Zeneca contract was written under UK law? Apparently (definitely not a legal expert here), Belgian law looks at what was intended in the law (which makes it harder to enforce) whereas UK law has to obey what is specifically written.

Once the expression "best efforts" is included when defining number of vaccines to be delivered, all it guarantees is long paid hours for the courts.

[R1ffR4ff]

Am I jumping the gun ? I had it in my mind that I could start riding again tomorrow without fear of being fined or whatever but now I am not sure about 'stay at home' or ' essential travel only' still being applicable !!!

From everything I've seen on TV and online there is now no legal requirement to ,"Stay Local" in England but are asking people to be sensible. To me this means I can go for a ride and if I were stopped and they tried to fine me I would contest it.

Ride safe as the last place I want to end up ATM is in Hospital ;-)

[embee]

Once the expression "best efforts" is included when defining number of vaccines to be delivered, all it guarantees is long paid hours for the courts.

"Reasonable best effort" is a pretty standard expression used in contracts, and is defined for the purposes of the contract in the definitions section of both contracts taking into account the scale of the businesses involved. What you would expect from a small company employing 5 people and from a multi-national enterprise is somewhat different. Both the EU and the UK contracts use the term in essentially the same manner. As for the jurisdiction of the contracts, I don't know.
How that can be enforced is, as you say, another matter for the lawyers.

The clause regarding any third part contract not affecting that contract is basically a declaration requirement, and I would have thought that was fairly cut and dried. It specifically includes any contract/agreement made before or after the contract in question so covers all possibilities.
I'd guess the EU is pretty versed in the art of contract law and would have tied up most loose ends. Whatever the outcome, it is most definitely not a direct conflict between the EU and the UK.

I do wonder what the UK media would have made of it if the shoe had been on the other foot and EU had written an exclusivity/priority term into the supply of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine. I doubt it would have gone down very well.

[admin]

From everything I've seen on TV and online there is now no legal requirement to ,"Stay Local" in England but are asking people to be sensible. To me this means I can go for a ride and if I were stopped and they tried to fine me I would contest it.

Ride safe as the last place I want to end up ATM is in Hospital ;-)I agree. I won't be wandering far but for the sake of my mental health I need to go for a ride avoiding people and using pay at pump for fuel.

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[DJ123]

From everything I've seen on TV and online there is now no legal requirement to ,"Stay Local" in England but are asking people to be sensible. To me this means I can go for a ride and if I were stopped and they tried to fine me I would contest it.

Ride safe as the last place I want to end up ATM is in Hospital ;-)

Go for it. I know i will be venturing further afield this weekend for some escapism. Although i know the roads will be busy as it is Easter.

[R1ffR4ff]

I agree. I won't be wandering far but for the sake of my mental health I need to go for a ride avoiding people and using pay at pump for fuel.

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Ditto. I'll be out but not too far. I've only been using my SV for shopping when I needed to go further than I wanted to cycle.

[R1ffR4ff]

Go for it. I know i will be venturing further afield this weekend for some escapism. Although i know the roads will be busy as it is Easter.

I learnt years ago to stay inland on Bank Holidays ;-)

[Bibio]

if you live somewhere else in the UK then please respect the Scottish government rules if you stay outside Scotland https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-timetable-for-easing-restrictions/pages/timetable/

[svenrico]

if you live somewhere else in the UK then please respect the Scottish government rules if you stay outside Scotland https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-timetable-for-easing-restrictions/pages/timetable/
Why should we respect the Scottish government rules if we stay outside Scotland ?!

[svenrico]

I have read the EU/AZ contract and these items are stated categorically, and AZ signed up to them.

How have you (with respect ) gained access to the EU/AZ contract ? Only going by what I saw on tv but they said the EU was not making the details of the contract available !

[embee]

With respect ...... if it's on the TV it must be true.

Try for example
https://www.rai.it/dl/doc/2021/02/19/1613725900577_AZ_FIRMATO_REPORT.pdf

I can't lay my hands on the link for the UK contract at the moment, someone else posted it up on this forum when I had said it wasn't available, and I was wrong.
It's available online somewhere, maybe someone else will be able to give you the link.

Edit - try this link for download of pdf of UK/AZ contract
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiSqKCR1NbvAhWegf0HHcY9AV0QFjAAegQIAxAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.contractsfinder.service.gov. uk%2FNotice%2FSupplierAttachment%2F77bb967f-0194-452a-bdae-9999aecc753d&usg=AOvVaw1Bk9CUbCF1XPioOeuUenlA

[Seeker]

uh oh!
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/vaccine-passport-nhsx-contact-tracing-app-b1824322.html

So the people that worked on the under performing test and trace (which has a budget of £37 billion) will now be working on a vaccine passport. What could possibly go wrong?

In my naive, simplistic world view - you'd primarily need a vaccine passport for foreign travel. You need a regular passport for travel, the NHS knows whether you've been vaccinated. So if you're travelling, send in your passport to the passport office, let them contact the NHS to verify you've been inoculated and your passport gets stamped.

Would this work, of course not. I'm sure the NHS records can't be opened to the passport office so it would need a new office to be set up in the NHS as point of contact. The passport offices are usually swamped in normal times and wouldn't be able to handle the work load. I'm sure we can come up with a lot more expensive way of doing it (and then buy the forged documents on ebay a week later).

[Bibio]

Why should we respect the Scottish government rules if we stay outside Scotland ?!
yup i see.. my dyslekit kicked in


if your planing on coming to Scotland on holiday from elsewhere in the UK because you think you can due to Westminster saying its ok in England etc.etc..... YOU CANT till Holyrood says you can. see above post....

[svenrico]

With respect ...... if it's on the TV it must be true.

Surely you can't be suggesting there is fake news on tv !
I haven't read all the links you have given but I did notice the 'best reasonable efforts ' term was used in the AZ/EU contract , which I think was being given as an important difference between the AZ/EU and AZ/UK contracts.

[svenrico]

yup i see.. my dyslekit kicked in
if your planing on coming to Scotland on holiday from elsewhere in the UK because you think you can due to Westminster saying its ok in England etc.etc..... YOU CANT till Holyrood says you can. see above post....

Has Westminster said it is ok for us to holiday in Scotland ? If Holyrood wants to keep visitors out, that's ok , I won't bother going. I'll go somewhere where there aren't so many midges ! :)

[embee]

..... the 'best reasonable efforts ' term was used in the AZ/EU contract , which I think was being given as an important difference between the AZ/EU and AZ/UK contracts.

I think you'll find it is used in both contracts.

This copied from the AZ/UK contract link
“Best Reasonable Efforts” means the activities and degree of effort that a company of similar
size with a similarly-sized infrastructure and similar resources as AstraZeneca would undertake
or use at the relevant stage of development or commercialisation, having regard to the urgent
need for a vaccine to end a global pandemic which is resulting in serious public health issues,
restrictions on personal freedoms and economic impact, across the world but taking into
account efficacy and safety;

[svenrico]

I think you'll find it is used in both contracts.

This copied from the AZ/UK contract link
“Best Reasonable Efforts” means the activities and degree of effort that a company of similar
size with a similarly-sized infrastructure and similar resources as AstraZeneca would undertake
or use at the relevant stage of development or commercialisation, having regard to the urgent
need for a vaccine to end a global pandemic which is resulting in serious public health issues,
restrictions on personal freedoms and economic impact, across the world but taking into
account efficacy and safety;
Why did 'they' quote this as being a critical difference between the two contracts ?
Must stop watching tv news !
ps and reading newspapers.
pps and looking on internet.

[widepants]

Wow , not been on here for yrs

[embee]

Why did 'they' quote this as being a critical difference between the two contracts ? ..............

There is quite a lot of stuff redacted, in the EU contract it is pretty much all delivery/scheduling etc.
I confess I haven't trawled through every item of the UK contract so can't really give any impression as to what has been redacted, whether there was some form of preference or priority clause within the contract or whether there was a similar separate agreement/contract. General opinion seems to be that there was something of this sort of priority agreed.
Kate Bingham (vaccine czarina) was interviewed on the Today programme (BBC Radio4) in January and was asked that specific question by Nick Robinson, and she paused and said she didn't want to discuss such details. It would have been very easy to simply deny it. Seasoned interviewers like Nick Robinson tend to only ask such questions when they already know the answer.

[Seeker]

As I alluded to earlier, the difference is which legal system the contract was written under. Even if the wording is similar it means different things under each system:

https://www.politico.eu/article/the-key-differences-between-the-eu-and-uk-astrazeneca-contracts/

[Bibio]

Wow , not been on here for yrs
nowt else to do is there :rolleyes: :D

[embee]

Ah, right, so the EU wanted to be co-operative with AZ and waived it's right to sue them for failure, and the UK held a big stick over them and said fail us and we'll beat you to death. Nice. Now I understand how the UK works with its "partners".

[Grant66]

Ah, right, so the EU wanted to be co-operative with AZ and waived it's right to sue them for failure, and the UK held a big stick over them and said fail us and we'll beat you to death. Nice. Now I understand how the UK works with its "partners".Were they being "co-operative" when the EU invoked article 16?

Sent from an S20 using Tapatalk with that kin cr4p blocked

[embee]

Article 16 wasn't to do with the company AZ per se, it was a precursor to applying wider export controls out of the EU (the UK then being a third country so included in the proposed control remit leading to the EU/UK border consideration). They admitted it was a mistake and stopped the action within hours, literally, and Von der Leyen stood up and said she deeply regretted that mistakes were made regarding this. It's not something we see from a UK politician very often, they say they are sorry for any upset caused not that they are sorry for doing something wrong.

I think my part in the discussion should probably end here, viewpoints are almost certainly fixed and won't change in either direction and I don't want to be divisive.

[svenrico]

Article 16 wasn't to do with the company AZ per se, it was a precursor to applying wider export controls out of the EU (the UK then being a third country so included in the proposed control remit leading to the EU/UK border consideration). They admitted it was a mistake and stopped the action within hours, literally, and Von der Leyen stood up and said she deeply regretted that mistakes were made regarding this. It's not something we see from a UK politician very often, they say they are sorry for any upset caused not that they are sorry for doing something wrong.

I think my part in the discussion should probably end here, viewpoints are almost certainly fixed and won't change in either direction and I don't want to be divisive.
I don't know that viewpoints are fixed, I voted remain in the referendum but I haven't liked the look of the EU in recent weeks ! I agree though that it is probably a good time to end this particular discussion on here.

[Seeker]

just when you thought it couldn't get more complicated...

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/british-taxpayers-funded-eu-factory-193218678.html

... awkward :rolleyes:

[Bibio]

just when you thought it couldn't get more complicated...

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/british-taxpayers-funded-eu-factory-193218678.html

... awkward :rolleyes:
ermm simple solution, split the vaccines between EU and UK.. politicians really are fukin stupid.

[svenrico]

ermm simple solution, split the vaccines between EU and UK.. politicians really are fukin stupid.

Would that be 50/50 ?

[Bibio]

Would that be 50/50 ?
if thats what it takes then yes.


the UK fuked up by building the factory in the EU when they could have built it here in the UK employing more UK workers but ooohhh no some fukin asswipe decided that it would be a good idea to build it somewhere else. they knew it was a tinderbox idea. what pizzes me off is these people get paid HUGE amounts to come up with idiotic things like this and people moaned about Trumps stupid ideas.........

[embee]

Apologies, I said I wouldn't, but .............

Halix opened its new plant in Leiden, NL, in 2019. Halix is contracted to AZ to supply "drug substances" which are then transported to other fill sites run by other contracted companies.
It does not appear (as far as I can see) that the UK government had any say in building any factory in the Netherlands (let alone the "EU"), it appears the funding was between UK govt and AZ, who have their own arrangements with sub-contractors.

... but hey, I may be wrong.

https://www.halix.nl/2021/03/26/halixs-agreement-astrazeneca-commercial-manufacture-covid-19-vaccine/

[svenrico]

if thats what it takes then yes.

So at 50/50 the UK with a population of 68.56 million should fare much better than the EU with a population of 447.7 million ! The problem of course is that it is a pandemic and all countries need the necessary supply of vaccines.

[Kenzie]

So what are your thoughts on the proposed twice weekly Covid tests? These would be the Lateral Flow tests, and if you test positive it is double checked with a PCR test.

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[Adam Ef]

My son does them for school twice a week, at home. The amount of plastic waste being generated in the UK alone with all these tests must be more than enough to make up for any attempts at plastic use reduction in the last decade.

[pookie]

yep all the schools and teachers are currently dojng them. so much packaging and DNA to be harvested. Clearly a better solution than the waste of money gold standard world beating Dido Harding app.

[DJ123]

So what are your thoughts on the proposed twice weekly Covid tests? These would be the Lateral Flow tests, and if you test positive it is double checked with a PCR test.

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Firstly, i don't see the point in it. What is it going to change or stop?
Secondly. The huge cost, for what return? Keep the local test centres open for those who need to go to work/be out in public/use public transport.
Thirdly, it's not going to make people stay home if they're positive. We've seen that throughout the last 12 months.

[svenrico]

So what are your thoughts on the proposed twice weekly Covid tests? These would be the Lateral Flow tests, and if you test positive it is double checked with a PCR test.

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If it helps to test the lateral flow and PCR it must be a good idea.

[Kenzie]

I have read that the lateral flow tests aren't always accurate. Someone I know tested positive twice with LFT but negative with a PCR.

[Luckypants]

I have read that the lateral flow tests aren't always accurate. Someone I know tested positive twice with LFT but negative with a PCR.And I know someone who tested negative with PCR, but tested positive (twice) with LFT. A second PCR test confirmed he had the virus.

We have to accept that the tests are fallible currently.

[embee]

And I know someone who tested negative with PCR, but tested positive (twice) with LFT. A second PCR test confirmed he had the virus.

We have to accept that the tests are fallible currently.

Did you watch the BBC documentary last week?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000tqjj/panorama-undercover-inside-the-covid-testing-lab

[SV650rules]

Not much difference in occurrence of blood clots between AZ and Pfizer, so why all the fuss in Europe about AZ - truth is that 30% of covid deaths are due to blood clots.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9366963/Coronavirus-Pfizers-Covid-vaccine-linked-blood-clots-AstraZenecas-UK.html

[svenrico]

I have read that the lateral flow tests aren't always accurate. Someone I know tested positive twice with LFT but negative with a PCR.
I have no idea what lateral flow tests, PCR or LFT are. (My previous comments were an attempt at sarcasm ) :smt003

[Kenzie]

Seeing in the news that the June 21st full lifting of restrictions in in jeopardy because of a new variant. I thought this whole vaccination programme was supposed to be the key to ending all of this.

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[Seeker]

The Indian covid variant B.1.617.2 "may" have the ability to evade the vaccine or make it less effective. There were 520 cases in the UK two days ago. Perhaps announcing a block of visitors from suspected countries shouldn't be announced a week ahead of the ban, just a thought.

[admin]

It's the same situation with the annual flu jab. There's always a number of strains doing the rounds and the medics have to choose which version to base the vaccine on to roll out to the public. Hence the the flu jab may not stop you getting the flu if you're unlucky enough to get one of the rarer strains.

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[DJ123]

Seeing in the news that the June 21st full lifting of restrictions in in jeopardy because of a new variant. I thought this whole vaccination programme was supposed to be the key to ending all of this.

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They've continuously moved the goal posts every time, as to what 'success' is and what hoops have to be jumped through before it can be achieved.
People will (at some point) doing what they want and ignoring the Government if it continues. Especially now so many people are vaccinated and the numbers have been low for a decent amount of time.

[pookie]

the problems is that the cases arent that low.. they've just plateaued at 2k per day. in context that would be the levels in September after the eat out to help out and you can see what happened shortly after whe all opened up and went back to school.


Seeing that the number of new cases are flat I assume the r number is 1 now. The only difference is the number of people dying from it are a lot lower but not a given for the new variant.

[svenrico]

The Indian covid variant B.1.617.2 "may" have the ability to evade the vaccine or make it less effective. There were 520 cases in the UK two days ago. Perhaps announcing a block of visitors from suspected countries shouldn't be announced a week ahead of the ban, just a thought.
Shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted anyway!

[svenrico]

Claim on news today that 21,000 people were allowed into this country from India after the government was aware of the threat of the India variant !

[Kenzie]

It's like they want the pandemic to drag on. We were so close to having this all under control.

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[DJ123]

Claim on news today that 21,000 people were allowed into this country from India after the government was aware of the threat of the India variant !

Yes, but probably more i expect too.

They've proved the whole way along they're inept at protecting the British public by refusing to close the borders. The kick back they will see from this, is it is a variant they willingly/knowingly let in.

[Seeker]

The kick back they will see from this, is it is a variant they willingly/knowingly let in.

no kick back, they seem to be Teflon coated and nothing sticks.

[Kenzie]

I'm now reading reports that the Indian varient is no worse than the Kent one.

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[DJ123]

no kick back, they seem to be Teflon coated and nothing sticks.

Friends in high places, and the competition is so inept we're stuck with them!

Maybe we'll see a Guy Fawkes moment if this continues . . . . but with the result....

[svenrico]

Yes, but probably more i expect too.

They've proved the whole way along they're inept at protecting the British public by refusing to close the borders. The kick back they will see from this, is it is a variant they willingly/knowingly let in.
I can't see why they would deliberately let this variant in , but I can't see why they couldn't control the borders better after everything that has gone on this last year.
Australia and New Zealand don't mess about controlling their borders do they?!

[svenrico]

I'm now reading reports that the Indian varient is no worse than the Kent one.

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How did Kent get the blame for a virus, I thought the virus came from China in the first place ?!

[svenrico]

no kick back, they seem to be Teflon coated and nothing sticks.
Errors in governance seems to have become a popular expression, which with enough obfuscation and getting kicked around for long enough will become historical failure.
Nobody accepts responsibility and nobody is held accountable.
Just my theory anyway. Can be applied to various situations.

[Kenzie]

How did Kent get the blame for a virus, I thought the virus came from China in the first place ?!It's where a certain mutation was first discovered. There are loads of varients kicking around.

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[DJ123]

I can't see why they would deliberately let this variant in , but I can't see why they couldn't control the borders better after everything that has gone on this last year.
Australia and New Zealand don't mess about controlling their borders do they?!

I don't think they deliberately let it in, but their incompetence in closing the borders and controlling people coming in from India as lead to the inevitable spread of it.
Too little too late, which has been their mantra all along (except for the Vaccine).
IMO they're too scared to annoy people (their friends who own these companies and who will later give them high paying executive roles post parliament employment) closing borders rather than preventing deaths

[Seeker]

I don't think they deliberately let it in, but their incompetence in closing the borders and controlling people coming in from India as lead to the inevitable spread of it.
Too little too late, which has been their mantra all along (except for the Vaccine).

BoZo was supposed to be flying to India to secure another winning (/s) trade deal so was reluctant to authorise a lockdown and risk upsetting PM Modi. Eventually the clamour became too great and a lockdown had to be authorised.

Regarding Oz and NZ - they are easier to lockdown since they're at the end of the line, so to speak. The UK is a crossroads with people passing through to other places which makes it harder to lockdown (and we're not very good at organising either, which doesn't help).

[gadget]

BoZo was supposed to be flying to India to secure another winning (/s) trade deal so was reluctant to authorise a lockdown and risk upsetting PM Modi. Eventually the clamour became too great and a lockdown had to be authorised.

Regarding Oz and NZ - they are easier to lockdown since they're at the end of the line, so to speak. The UK is a crossroads with people passing through to other places which makes it harder to lockdown (and we're not very good at organising either, which doesn't help).

The UK should be a doddle to lock down, we are an island surrounded by nothing but water, no land mass to just stroll across. Iirc .. it served us well between 39-45 but for some ridiculous reason we still have a problem sealing the doors!

[Seeker]

The UK should be a doddle to lock down, we are an island surrounded by nothing but water, no land mass to just stroll across. Iirc .. it served us well between 39-45 but for some ridiculous reason we still have a problem sealing the doors!

You need to think like a Conservative politician. You have two things to place in order of priority - people's safety and profit. Now, as a Conservative government minister which order do you place them?

[gadget]

You need to think like a Conservative politician. You have two things to place in order of priority - people's safety and profit. Now, as a Conservative government minister which order do you place them?
Not speaking as a Conservative or any other party .... but if we had of closed the doors right from the off ... we most likely wouldn't have had to deal with the financial ruin of so many businesses brought about by this country's incompetent politicians and their blatant disregard for our country's work force, thereby the financial implications would have had far less devastating financial impact as a whole.
I'm afraid I am one of those individuals who sees the world in black and white knowing there are many grey areas, I find it very difficult to accept incompetence and those that embrace apathy as though it were a virtue.
And now we have another strain of this virus to deal with and yet we have been told we can holiday abroad!! I just don't see how we're ever going to fully recover as a nation when we are surrounded by incompetent politicians issuing multiple conflicting instructions using a system that greatly resembles a 'wild stab in the dark!
I certainly do not have the answer to all of this but I recognise a cluster f@#k when I see one and I'm still amazed that we are still letting in (at the port of Dover) hundreds of lorries with drivers that have been allowed to enter the UK with no valid corona virus test! Not my assumption... fact from a border force operative I know.

[svenrico]

Holidaying abroad for f**ks sake. People haven't been able to visit close relatives dying in care homes and then couldn't have a proper funeral when they died.

[gadget]

Holidaying abroad for f**ks sake. People haven't been able to visit close relatives dying in care homes and then couldn't have a proper funeral when they died.

Indeed, it defies all logic imo.
Close the doors, keep the UK safe, we will deal with the fall-out as and when it is safe and appropriate to do so.

[Bibio]

you must be brain dead to go on holiday just now. i think people forget that the jab does not stop you getting covid. it says so in the letter.....

i'm just waiting on another lockdown, lets say end of July. or lets do what should have been done from the beginning and let it just run its course.

[Chris_SVS]

you must be brain dead to go on holiday just now. i think people forget that the jab does not stop you getting covid. it says so in the letter.....

i'm just waiting on another lockdown, lets say end of July. or lets do what should have been done from the beginning and let it just run its course.
Had the average person who comments on news articles/social media posts with the no masks/end draconian lockdown/open up pubs kind of stuff been allowed to just run wild, the same people would be complaining that the pubs hadn't done enough to protect them from covid. Would never be their fault they went out and caught it/spread it for the sake of a few pints with the lads.

Some people just need a good boot in the hole (replace boot in the hole with "dose of covid" they're interchangeable.

[Dave20046]

I've not really been up on the news (although noticed people inside a pub the other day?!), did they get to the bottom of what was causing the old death in the astrazennica vaccines in those rare cases? A quick google seems to just say they're looking into it still.

[svenrico]

Had the average person who comments on news articles/social media posts with the no masks/end draconian lockdown/open up pubs kind of stuff been allowed to just run wild, the same people would be complaining that the pubs hadn't done enough to protect them from covid. Would never be their fault they went out and caught it/spread it for the sake of a few pints with the lads.

Some people just need a good boot in the hole (replace boot in the hole with "dose of covid" they're interchangeable.
Yes, and unbelievable that some don't even believe this thing exists and it has all been some sort of conspiracy theory.

[Seeker]

I've not really been up on the news (although noticed people inside a pub the other day?!), did they get to the bottom of what was causing the old death in the astrazennica vaccines in those rare cases? A quick google seems to just say they're looking into it still.

They know what but not why. It's a rare type of blood clot with low platelets which means, apparently, you bleed more and they show up in places that can be fatal like the veins in the brain. It seems to affect younger people more than older and women more than men.

https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/what-blood-clotting-disorder-astrazeneca-vaccine-has-been-linked

[Dave20046]

They know what but not why. It's a rare type of blood clot with low platelets which means, apparently, you bleed more and they show up in places that can be fatal like the veins in the brain. It seems to affect younger people more than older and women more than men.

https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/what-blood-clotting-disorder-astrazeneca-vaccine-has-been-linked


Thanks, I hadn't seen that. I noticed it states the risk of death between vaccine vs contracting covid as relatively close in the lower age groups ...hopefully a typo!

I was hoping for the why, but it does look like clots is a feature of the virus itself which I didn't know and I think was under-reported so I guess that explains it somewhat. The clots in the vaccine have been widely reported.

[Bibio]

expect another lockdown in Scotland sometime soon. Covid19 running rampant again and the Scottish Gov and media are not reporting it. some schools being closed due to it.

[Ruffy]

Some interesting and quite astounding stuff coming out of Cummings at the MP inquiry session today!

Controversy that's probably not going to go away too easily (even allowing for the somewhat compromised credibility of the individual offering it up).

[Seeker]

Some interesting and quite astounding stuff coming out of Cummings at the MP inquiry session today!

Controversy that's probably not going to go away too easily (even allowing for the somewhat compromised credibility of the individual offering it up).

"Naturally, I wrote to my MP under the headline:
"Cummings versus Johnson"

"Now this is a difficult one because BoZo (and some members of the Cabinet) have a track record of lying and Cummings' Barnard Castle visit and associated story reduces his credibility.

Still, lockdown was too slow, Boris did say he would continue shaking hands, the covid messaging has usually been confusing (and continues to be so), Hancock/Truss have indulged in cronyism. BoZo won't hold an inquiry until he thinks its results will surface after the next election."

I would say that Cummings is the more believable out of the two.

My MP (Martin Vickers) never responds any more but since I've sent him in the region of 80 emails since the beginning of March, I understand. Still, I feel he needs to understand what (one member of) his constituency is thinking. He always votes the party line irrespective of his beliefs, his moral compass long since broken.

______

On another covid related note, I didn't know that to travel you needed a PCR test from a private provider. One NHS worker who is tested regularly (by the NHS) found that it wasn't sufficient and was refused boarding. More jobs for Tory friends, perhaps?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57243205

[Seeker]

another winner from Larry and Paul.

https://youtu.be/IEzvDvIGVPM

[Dave20046]

"Naturally, I wrote to my MP under the headline:
"Cummings versus Johnson"

"Now this is a difficult one because BoZo (and some members of the Cabinet) have a track record of lying and Cummings' Barnard Castle visit and associated story reduces his credibility.

Still, lockdown was too slow, Boris did say he would continue shaking hands, the covid messaging has usually been confusing (and continues to be so), Hancock/Truss have indulged in cronyism. BoZo won't hold an inquiry until he thinks its results will surface after the next election."

I would say that Cummings is the more believable out of the two.

My MP (Martin Vickers) never responds any more but since I've sent him in the region of 80 emails since the beginning of March, I understand. Still, I feel he needs to understand what (one member of) his constituency is thinking. He always votes the party line irrespective of his beliefs, his moral compass long since broken.

______

On another covid related note, I didn't know that to travel you needed a PCR test from a private provider. One NHS worker who is tested regularly (by the NHS) found that it wasn't sufficient and was refused boarding. More jobs for Tory friends, perhaps?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57243205

I actually think the scene he's setting explains the Barnard Castle debarkle a bit more. If your boss is saying it's all pish, and isn't even attending the meetings (because it's more productive for him not to be there) and others are all on their jollies skiing - why wouldn't you think feck it and nip to a historic castle to visit your fellow ghouls?

[DJ123]

Cummings has nothing to lose, and really nothing to gain from slating off those in power simply for the sake of it. He's highlighted nothing we didn't already think true of the inept planning/response & last minute decisions throughout.
He's not perfect/immune of criticism himself, but was also not responsible as the MP's are for guiding the Country and making the decisions. He's only an advisor to Johnson who's political career has been made following what people want and jumping on the bandwagon.

[Dave20046]

Cummings has nothing to lose, and really nothing to gain from slating off those in power simply for the sake of it. He's highlighted nothing we didn't already think true of the inept planning/response & last minute decisions throughout.
He's not perfect/immune of criticism himself, but was also not responsible as the MP's are for guiding the Country and making the decisions. He's only an advisor to Johnson who's political career has been made following what people want and jumping on the bandwagon.

Agreed, it's all very believable #-o

[redtrummy]

My two penny worth. From what DC is saying sounds pretty plausible (not sure about the Durham trip) I kept saying to the wife why have the airports not been closed. Bo Jo eventually stated that the small number coming into the country would not make much difference. He was probably paying homage to his cronies and paymasters.
He visited a local school with his minders close to were I live, one week later there was a covid outbreak.
But people still vote for him.

[Ruffy]

Cummings has nothing to lose, and really nothing to gain from slating off those in power simply for the sake of it. He's highlighted nothing we didn't already think true of the inept planning/response & last minute decisions throughout.
I actually think he had virtually nothing to gain if correct but something significant to lose if proven wrong (e.g. reputation, employability). Classic whistleblower's dilemma.


Agreed, it's all very believable #-o
... what DC is saying sounds pretty plausible (not sure about the Durham trip)
So I tend to subscribe to this view too. I admit I had a dim view of him previously, based on the Durham fiasco and a bit of (blind) faith that the system couldn't be that bad in reality despite what the naysayers proclaim. But it does appear that his personal integrity is fairly reasonable after all.

I do wholeheartedly agree with his observation that the governmental system is unfit for purpose - IMHO, Politics is way too polarised, over simplistic and based on individuals' populist persona & ideology rather than the actual issues and policies, with only a limited selection for electorate to pick from - You can never please everybody so it's about time they stop pretending to always have the perfect answer, all of 'em - 'best of a bad bunch' isn't really good 'choice'.

The saddest thing for me is that my cynicism means I don't believe for a second that this'll lead to proper reflection, honest review and, if necessary, radical regime overhaul, despite this being potentially one of the most scandalous event sets in recent political history.

[Seeker]

Anyone keeping a variant tally?

1) Original Chinese
2) UK (B.1.1.7 aka Alpha)
3) South African (B.1.351 aka Beta)
4) Indian (B.1.617 and B.1.617.2 aka Delta)
5) Brazilian (P1 ? aka Gamma)

and now #6 - the Nepal variant https://uk.news.yahoo.com/uk-sees-more-20-cases-201125581.html

just make it stop, please.

[DJ123]

All Viruses keep mutating, as that's what they do to survive until they are either eradicated or immune to all known attacks/medicines.

This will more than likely become a part of life/society for the next few years (probably longer) and dealt with like the seasonal Flu, with Yearly vaccines/top ups depending on the current status of Herd immunity and the variants doing the rounds.

[SV650rules]

All Viruses keep mutating, as that's what they do to survive until they are either eradicated or immune to all known attacks/medicines.

This will more than likely become a part of life/society for the next few years (probably longer) and dealt with like the seasonal Flu, with Yearly vaccines/top ups depending on the current status of Herd immunity and the variants doing the rounds.

Agree, we are stuck with it now. The reason Smallpox, Polio etc could be eradicated by mass vaccination was that the were stable and did not mutate, but with coronavirus family they are famous for mutating...

[Ruffy]

Anyone keeping a variant tally?
.
.
.
just make it stop, please.
All Viruses keep mutating, as that's what they do to survive until they are either eradicated or immune to all known attacks/medicines.

This will more than likely become a part of life/society for the next few years (probably longer) and dealt with like the seasonal Flu, with Yearly vaccines/top ups depending on the current status of Herd immunity and the variants doing the rounds.
Agree, we are stuck with it now. The reason Smallpox, Polio etc could be eradicated by mass vaccination was that the were stable and did not mutate, but with coronavirus family they are famous for mutating...
Yes, it's 'in the wild' now. As I understand it, such mutations tend towards less nasty variants (simply because a virus that becomes too effective at killing its host will eventually self-eradicate too). I guess it could take some time and many changes to see that clearly for Covid-19 though.

IMHO, the residual problem seems to be that the ruling organisations or their health advisors have created an expectation that we will only be "safe" when humankind is pretty much unaffected by it in all circumstances.

I think the reality is that we need to understand that, at a macro level, the general populus must accept some risk, i.e. no one knows individually who or when, but some will be badly affected by this virus on a routine basis (incl. even dying). It's a brutal truth but this is what happens with "the flu" and many other things. But what pattern of 'loss' is acceptable? That's what we need to figure out and agree on. It's a heated argument that has been raging since day one.

[SV650rules]

At last the politicians and scientists are beginning to believe what most people suspected all along. No wonder the CCP threatened the Aussies for suggesting that China made and released the virus.



https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-science-suggests-a-wuhan-lab-leak-11622995184?utm_medium=email&utm_source=CampaignMonitor_Editorial&utm_campaign=LNCH%20%2020210607%20%20House%20Ads%2 0%20SM+CID_3e0fac8aa69978541528bfa9af8e0b92

[redtrummy]

Give this a watch - whole new ball game (possibly)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyhMoWDSZ7Y

[DJ123]

They wish the Bat story had stuck now :D

[SV650rules]

USA implicated in funding of bat coronavirus research in Wuhan



https://youtu.be/0c7vInnhSlY

[Kenzie]

Well, so much for freedom day.

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[svenrico]

Well, so much for freedom day.

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It became apparent it wasn't going to happen when cases started rising again.

[Kenzie]

Yep. And we should have shut the borders long ago.

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