View Full Version : The Covid19 thread
but according to you i'm a moron for not taking the jab. i have never had a flu jab either. if i die tomorrow from covid then so be it, its been a good life. i do take precautions when out and about, you would be daft not to.
of course you're not a moron if there's a medical reason for you not taking the vaccine, quite the contrary because you've made a rational choice based on the risk factors.
The issue I have is with healthy people not taking the vaccine and then spouting the rubbish about 5G/Bill Gates/government control and end up in the overstretched NHS ICU. I just wish I could empathise with these people as they gasp their last breaths, but as Forest Gump said: "Stupid is, as stupid does".
This antivax syndrome is not new as shown in the link I posted but it's disappointing to see it so widespread, maybe it's a necessary cull.
Virus' mutate during transmission so reducing the replication rate is how it is eliminated/reduced. Allowing a significant number of unvaccinated people in society will allow a mutated, vaccine resistant strain to evolve which may affect us all.
...and I'm done. I'll try and work on my empathy and stopping calling them morons will be a good start.
Some comments have been made regarding resistance and strategies etc for viruses and bacteria.
It should be noted that viruses and bacteria are very very different things, bacteria are way above viruses in the evolutionary tree. A virus is not really a "living" organism in the true sense, it doesn't have all the information and certainly not the real-estate to replicate by itself, the host does that bit for it. Bacteria are living things which reproduce by themselves, they just need the environment and nutrients. It's often the toxins they release which cause the illnesses.
Neither have any form of "strategy", only a modus operandi. Bacteria will have a variety of tolerance and resistance just like any other organism, not all people react the same to infections for example. If a bacterial infection is treated with anti-biotics the susceptible bacteria will succumb readily, the more resistant ones will survive longer. If the treatment is halted prematurely these will be the ones remaining and they will continue to replicate, hence the resistant strains will quickly become dominant. That's the importance of completing courses of anti-biotics.
Viruses can be stable, when replicating the genetic code will be repeated faithfully, and these are the ones which can potentially be eradicated (polio, smallpox etc) simply through persistence of treatments. Other viruses can be such that the code isn't reliably reproduced. It isn't a strategy, they aren't smart, it's just they way they are made up. Whether the host is vaccinated or not doesn't affect the tendency for these aberrations, it does affect the amount of viral load the host will end up with. The greater the load the more likely the host is to suffer from the effects. Vaccination just pre-empts the arrival of a viral infection so the body is primed to recognise it and react accordingly, in no way does it prevent infection and has never been promoted as such. The body's defence system does the heavy lifting, the vaccine provides the advance information.
As viral aberrations occur some will be more reliably replicated than others and will become the dominant version simply by probability, but other variants will still arise. If the variations involve the parts of the virus which the host has been "trained" to recognise and react to with defences then any previous exposure (vaccination/infection) may become irrelevant and the new variant isn't fought off until too late. This essentially is what we have seen with the Covid variants.
It doesn't really matter to the virus whether the host dies of the infection or not, if the virus is passed on before they die then it will be infectious and potentially become an epidemic. It's not a case of being an "advantage" to the virus, it just determines whether the virus spreads or not. If it does then it's more common, if it doesn't it peters out.
The world is full of bacteria and viruses, other organisms (us) have evolved along with them and either live with them or don't, just as plants either survive environments or don't. Our digestive system relies on bacteria, it doesn't work without them.
Vaccines are far less likely to be detrimental to us than the virus, the vaccines don't have the content which can replicate so the dose you get is defined. They just have the relevant signal elements which the body can recognise as an invader, the different vaccine types are essentially just different vehicles for delivering the information (4 types https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/there-are-four-types-covid-19-vaccines-heres-how-they-work ).
I can't help feeling it is a lack of understanding behind much of the reluctance to accept vaccinations, though there is a difference between lack of understanding and active denial. Historically there have certainly been bad moves in medicine/pharmacy, but we move on and understand things better and there is more transparency.
Arguments for "natural" immunity strategies means that everyone has to be exposed to the infection and thus the disease, and many will die of the disease. Not many will die of the vaccine. There have been arguments that natural immunity is somehow "better" than vaccines. The reasoning I've read in favour of vaccines is that a vaccine will prompt the body with recognising the point at which the virus enters the cell (spike protein) so will react at that point, natural infection results in all the stuff going on inside the cell and the body reacting to that, i.e. the disease has already started, a bit like the difference between bailing out the boat and plugging the hole, better to recognise the hole and deal with that than wait till you are knee deep in water and then reaching for the buckets.
I'm sure many folk who are reluctant/refuse to take the vaccines will put all manner of proven undesirable stuff into their bodies, from e-numbers to cigarette smoke.
Entrenched views will not be changed, the more one side tries to rationalise their argument the deeper the other side will dig their heels in.
SV650rules
22-11-21, 12:41 PM
Pathogens that are too virulent die out, like Black death did. If a pathogen kills its host it is creating a dead end ( LOL ) for itself by severely limiting its spread, the common cold is still around and thriving because it does not kill its host, but allows its host to freely move around, thus spreading itself around. Over 75% of covid deaths have been in patients over 75, with 95% over 60 and with multiple ( 2 or more ) existing chronic serious health condiditions. Average age of a covid death 83.... This virus is not a killer of healthy people, or young people ( <50 ) it is a killer of already seriously ill older people. Figures from ONS data.
Biker Biggles
22-11-21, 12:49 PM
One thing I have learned over my 60+ years is that you cant fix stupid so little point in trying. But just one thought about statistics------The covid jab will not prevent 100% of covid illness and deaths. If we jabbed 100% of our population some would still require hospital/ITU treatment and some would still die. 100% of those who died would have been jabbed. The stupid among us might then claim the vaccine was dangerous because everyone who died had taken it.
Pathogens that are too virulent die out, like Black death did. If a pathogen kills its host it is creating a dead end ( LOL ) for itself by severely limiting its spread, the common cold is still around and thriving because it does not kill its host, but allows its host to freely move around, thus spreading itself around. ........
I'm still not sure what your point is?
(the Black Death didn't actually die out, and people took many measures to try to deal with it back in the 14th century, but that's another story..... https://www.history.com/topics/middle-ages/black-death )
SV650rules
22-11-21, 04:09 PM
My point is that with or without vaccines the most virulent form of a virus will die out fairly quickly, leaving the more benign variants ( the ones that do not kill ). Where is the Black death today then, if it didn't die out ?
The plague makes regular appearances even today. Google it, you will see.
Sent from my F5321 using Tapatalk
My point is that with or without vaccines the most virulent form of a virus will die out fairly quickly, leaving the more benign variants ( the ones that do not kill ). ......
In principle you are probably right, but the reality is that over 5 years or so the Black Death killed a third of the population of Europe. I'm not sure that's an acceptable approach in today's society. Maybe it is?
the plague is a biological pathogen where covid is a viral pathogen. completely different beats. we can by and large treat biological with penicillin where viral has no real treatment.
svenrico
22-11-21, 06:01 PM
its all blown out of proportion by the media and the only real way to tell if hospital beds are taken up with people dying of covid is to actually go to there and find out. not to listen or read that they are.
Not a good idea ! (for obvious reasons )
SV650rules
22-11-21, 06:19 PM
The plague makes regular appearances even today. Google it, you will see.
Obviously not killing many or we would have heard about it.
redtrummy
22-11-21, 06:49 PM
It is a difficult conundrum to vaccinate or not. I am due to have my booster tomorrow but I do have concerns.
BoJo and his cronies are pushing it. That in itself is a big concern - he knows economically we are on a sticky wicket hence the reluctance to accept that another lockdown may be necessary. I trust not one word that he utters. Another is that Pfizer are an American company who are out to line their own pockets and may have down played the side effects of their vaccine (inflammation of the heart e.t.c)
However I want to go to the pub and go to music venues and feel relatively comfortable.
I am not talking over crowded venues here -that is like having a death wish! Therefore I will have it done with some trepidation
Obviously not killing many or we would have heard about it.
As Bibio pointed out, it's treatable with antibiotics being a bacillus not a virus.
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/seriously-dont-worry-about-the-plague#Heres-how-the-plague-spreads
ethariel
23-11-21, 05:13 PM
2 covid vaccinations, one booster jab, one flu jab and im off work with a hacking cough (normal for this time of year), slight fever and sniffles - it's a cold (Admittedly the green gunk i was bringing up was bad but my standby boxes of antibiotics and steroids have brought me back to 'it's a cold' status rather than 'it's pneumonia welcome to hospital')
3 negative LFT tests but noooooooo i still have to have a PCR test done before i'm allowed near work again.
Wasn't the new covid variant, "Omicron", in Doctor Who? :)
The name certainly sounds more scary than "Delta"...
It also generated, for the first time, a sensible comment from the Health minister: "We need to act quickly".
It's only taken 2 years but the government's finally got the message, hurrah!
SV650rules
27-11-21, 12:06 PM
Seems the WHO have skipped from Nu to Omicron, missing out Xi - best not to upset Chinese...
SV650rules
27-11-21, 12:08 PM
As Bibio pointed out, it's treatable with antibiotics being a bacillus not a virus.
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/seriously-dont-worry-about-the-plague#Heres-how-the-plague-spreads
Good job that the vacuum cleaner has virtually wiped out fleas then...
ethariel
27-11-21, 12:09 PM
Seems the WHO have skipped from Nu to Omicron, missing out Xi - best not to upset Chinese...
just in time for the Xmas lockdown too!
Who's ready for a Xmas lockdown :safe:
And Omicron is an anagram of . . . . our PM
Prime Minister confirms new, temporary measures to respond to emergence of UK cases of the Omicron variant
All international arrivals to take a Day 2 PCR test and self-isolate until they receive a negative test
Face coverings to be made compulsory in shops and public transport
Measures are precautionary, and will be reviewed in three weeks
Who's ready for a Xmas lockdown :safe:
And Omicron is an anagram of . . . . our PM
no lockdown.. it'll cost too much.
:smt081
SV650rules
28-11-21, 01:05 PM
Seeing reports coming in that Omicron variant is less virulent than preceding variants, which follows historic trends that viruses get less virulent over time... mainly because a virus that kills its host shoots itself in the foot as far as spreading its DNA is concerned...
https://nypost.com/2021/11/27/omicron-variant-symptoms-unusual-but-mild-says-south-african-doctor/
svenrico
28-11-21, 01:59 PM
They risk offending Greece by using the Greek alphabet ,and what about France, omicron sounds a bit too much like Macron !
They risk offending Greece by using the Greek alphabet ,and what about France, omicron sounds a bit too much like Macron !
It's an anagram of Moronic, so you could apply it to the French President or the English PM :smt023
... mainly because a virus that kills its host shoots itself in the foot as far as spreading its DNA is concerned
HIV would like a word and Ebola and Dengue and Rabies and Smallpox (although we have vaccines for the latter two they are still deadly).
Then there's MERS which is a relative of covid with a 35% mortality rate and Marburg virus with an 88% mortality rate...
Will covid get less deadly? Ask again in 20 years.
Seeing reports coming in that Omicron variant is less virulent than preceding variants, which follows historic trends that viruses get less virulent over time... mainly because a virus that kills its host shoots itself in the foot as far as spreading its DNA is concerned...
https://nypost.com/2021/11/27/omicron-variant-symptoms-unusual-but-mild-says-south-african-doctor/
Indeed, that's the pattern one was expecting all along. Let's hope the next three weeks see it sufficiently scientifically vindicated to the point that we can return to a state where we are not made to feel paranoid about breathing the air around us and society can return to its path of trying to function evenly again. The mass fear that has been created and propogated is dismaying to me. I find the marginalising of other problems that arise from the covid 'management' measures equally unpalatable.
Of course it's dreadful that people have died unexpectedly or suffered hideous illness episodes that no-one could have anticipated but, at a macro level, that happens every day/year, often in numbers far larger than Covid. So I find it hard to comprehend and justify the widespread authoritarian control that is being imposed.:confused:
A real lingering sadness for me is that our health service appears to be no better equipped now than it was two years ago to handle the effects of a severe pandemic on the population.
SV650rules
28-11-21, 03:51 PM
A real lingering sadness for me is that our health service appears to be no better equipped now than it was two years ago to handle the effects of a severe pandemic on the population.
The Germans said ' in Britain you clap the NHS, in Germany we give them more funding'... ( but the NHS in its present form is a money pit ).
I was shocked that only 10% of NHS employees are medical - see heading 4 and read below..
https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/workforce-and-business/workforce-diversity/nhs-workforce/latest
.
HIV would like a word and Ebola and Dengue and Rabies and Smallpox (although we have vaccines for the latter two they are still deadly).
Then there's MERS which is a relative of covid with a 35% mortality rate and Marburg virus with an 88% mortality rate...
Will covid get less deadly? Ask again in 20 years.
So why aren't we in the midst of lockdown, masking, working from home, furloughing etc. to control those other viruses you name? Presenting it the way you have makes them sound far more dangerous than covid. Is it because they haven't really mutated to any great extent so they remain deadly and, thankfully, the established controls are stable and remain effective?
Of course we shouldn't forget influenza too, which is still significantly deadly every year. There's a lot of bad stuff out there that generally goes unremarked in general population.
Or is it just a timing thing? (I have reflected on what I'm witnessing recently compared to what I witnessed/experienced with AIDS/HIV management when it took hold through the 80s/90s.)
Tbh I'm no longer sure what's at the heart of the covid management debate or how to resolve it. It all seems fuelled, I suggest, with a created mass belief that we can stop covid killing, a falsehood that no-one in power/media seems willing to deal with now.
(I am aware of and declare my prejudice: I'm sorry if this sounds harsh or selfish to some, it's just the way I feel, but I'm really struggling with being compelled to put my own life essentially in a parking bay to generally protect over 70s and those at heightened risk of dying anyway. Why? Because I lost both my parents 'early': father at age 58, heart-related, mother at 59, cancer - both some years ago now before I reached age 30. It messed me up far more than I realised at the time and I still struggle today as a result of missng their counsel over the years since and making bad life decisions in the absence of their ongoing support. I've also got other life experiences where there's been, or is likely to be, 'premature' death or serious depression amongst friends and family. It hurts a lot when it happens but I've come to terms with the fact it does happen, and often can't be prevented from happening. So, as I now approach 52, with the possibility that the prognosis might be similar for me, i.e. I could be dead in less than a decade just because of my family history and genetic susceptibility, it's hard for me to act just to preserve a hope of extending 'senior years' by sacrificing or limiting the potential for joy in the present.)
The Germans said ' in Britain you clap the NHS, in Germany we give them more funding'... ( but the NHS in its present form is a money pit ).
I was shocked that only 10% of NHS employees are medical - see heading 4 and read below..
https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/workforce-and-business/workforce-diversity/nhs-workforce/latest
.
Wow, 10%, that's news to me and I agree quite shocking.
I also agree that the intervention required is not necessarily the injection of more funding.
SV650rules
28-11-21, 04:19 PM
The reason we have had successful vaccines for some viruses like smallpox is that they do not mutate, so it is possible to almost wipe them out. It is a competitive advantage to a virus to become more transmissible and less deadly, it maximizes the amount of your virus DNA that gets spread around. Ebola also lives in bats ( a surprising amount of diseases come from bats ) and has mutated to jump the species gap, the Africans have a habit of eating bat meat - and that is the reason Ebola spread to humans... Chinese also eat and live cheek by jowl with some stranger and exotic creatures - which is probably why a lot of diseases originate from there.
So why aren't we in the midst of lockdown, masking, working from home, furloughing etc. to control those other viruses you name?
You're mixing two discussions. The first was that it was suggested that virus' get less deadly as they mutate and my point was that they don't necessarily and I listed some still deadly virus'.
If HIV was an airborne virus we would be in deep trouble though. HIV patients are given 2 different retrovirals because HIV can out maneuver one and even then with the virus classed as "undetectable" (viral load <50) it hides somewhere in the body - suspected to be at the brain stem.
Your other comment was about how you thought the government was introducing authoritarian controls and seemed to imply that losing 150+ people a day through covid was acceptable because people die of other things anyway. I do agree that the Tories are overstepping democratic rules but not in this particular area.
We have had almost 150,000 covid deaths some of which could have been prevented if lockdowns/quarantines were introduced sooner. Profit versus health? As I get older the latter becomes more important to me, when I was younger not so much, maybe.
We have had a couple of recent months of optional mask/social distancing rules which was irresponsible (imho) when we know that they reduce the risk of catching covid. Our inspiring leader demonstrated that mask wearing was not needed with his actions yet virus case rates remain stubbornly high. Those rules should not have been relaxed - they were not onerous restrictions and, even now, the rules are half baked.
This government seems to play fast and loose with safety rules. None of the incoming South African passengers (into UK) have been tested for omicron yet the Dutch found 10% of their incoming passengers from SA were carrying the new variant. Let's hope the new strain is weak.
The reason we have had successful vaccines for some viruses like smallpox is that they do not mutate, so it is possible to almost wipe them out. It is a competitive advantage to a virus to become more transmissible and less deadly, it maximizes the amount of your virus DNA that gets spread around. Ebola also lives in bats ( a surprising amount of diseases come from bats ) and has mutated to jump the species gap, the Africans have a habit of eating bat meat - and that is the reason Ebola spread to humans... Chinese also eat and live cheek by jowl with some stranger and exotic creatures - which is probably why a lot of diseases originate from there.
humans have been eating whatever they can catch since,, well forever. different regions eat different things and have been eating these things for ever. if it were the fault of a species causing all these viruses etc.etc they would have surfaced a long long time ago. its easy to tell the public that "it came from bats" than to tell them in came out of a lab at which point blame would start.
Biker Biggles
28-11-21, 06:51 PM
The Germans said ' in Britain you clap the NHS, in Germany we give them more funding'... ( but the NHS in its present form is a money pit ).
I was shocked that only 10% of NHS employees are medical - see heading 4 and read below..
https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/workforce-and-business/workforce-diversity/nhs-workforce/latest
.
Just to put that in proper perspective------10% of NHS staff are medical means 10% are doctors. The term "medical" means doctor and does not include "clinical" staff ie nurses physios ambulance radiographers pharmacists etc etc etc. Beware of "statistics" on the net eh? 81% of all statistics are just made up;)
Just to put that in proper perspective------10% of NHS staff are medical means 10% are doctors. The term "medical" means doctor and does not include "clinical" staff ie nurses physios ambulance radiographers pharmacists etc etc etc. Beware of "statistics" on the net eh? 81% of all statistics are just made up;)
And be especially aware of statistics on your national government website, as these were!!!:rolleyes:
You're mixing two discussions. The first was that it was suggested that virus' get less deadly as they mutate and my point was that they don't necessarily and I listed some still deadly virus'.
If HIV was an airborne virus we would be in deep trouble though. HIV patients are given 2 different retrovirals because HIV can out maneuver one and even then with the virus classed as "undetectable" (viral load <50) it hides somewhere in the body - suspected to be at the brain stem.
Your other comment was about how you thought the government was introducing authoritarian controls and seemed to imply that losing 150+ people a day through covid was acceptable because people die of other things anyway. I do agree that the Tories are overstepping democratic rules but not in this particular area.
We have had almost 150,000 covid deaths some of which could have been prevented if lockdowns/quarantines were introduced sooner. Profit versus health? As I get older the latter becomes more important to me, when I was younger not so much, maybe.
We have had a couple of recent months of optional mask/social distancing rules which was irresponsible (imho) when we know that they reduce the risk of catching covid. Our inspiring leader demonstrated that mask wearing was not needed with his actions yet virus case rates remain stubbornly high. Those rules should not have been relaxed - they were not onerous restrictions and, even now, the rules are half baked.
This government seems to play fast and loose with safety rules. None of the incoming South African passengers (into UK) have been tested for omicron yet the Dutch found 10% of their incoming passengers from SA were carrying the new variant. Let's hope the new strain is weak.
Fair challenge. My thoughts are not fully formed, or necessarily fixed, on any of this. I often 'think out loud' as I grapple with problems and I admit I am susceptible to confusion as I do.
The contrasting thought about the deadly viruses was have they mutated to any great extent (or at least at the pace being seen/expected with covid)? How to gauge 'steady state'? I don't know.
The deaths issue is intriguing and sensitive of course. I do not like the fact that so many people are dying of covid, I am simply left wondering how many of those are/were truly preventable now that it's out there. What's acceptable is of course a partly medical, partly moral, partly political issue as you rightly point out. I wonder if the covid episode has exposed many more people to the macro-level reality of how many people actually die on a daily basis and much of the debate is because lots of people may be struggling to comprehend it and compare with our micro-level existences. (I include myself in that - again I profess no particular expertise or righteousness.)
The mask thing is another contentious point. It could be argued that cases staying stubbornly high is evidence that masks do not really work (en-masse). It may feel like its a minor imposition but I feel we lose a lot socially by covering our faces. Again, I do not know what to conclude (though, as it happens, I have been trained in a some mask wearing activities over the years in my professional life so I like to think I decently appreciate the practical issues related to them.)
I agree that the 'half-baked' guidance/solution we have now, full of inconsistencies or anomalies, is making things harder to deal with for most. I am certainly just sick of it and probably mentally exhausted to the point of subconsciously thinking "to hell with it, it will be what it will be".
svenrico
29-11-21, 12:15 AM
The Germans said ' in Britain you clap the NHS, in Germany we give them more funding'... ( but the NHS in its present form is a money pit ).
I was shocked that only 10% of NHS employees are medical - see heading 4 and read below..
https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/workforce-and-business/workforce-diversity/nhs-workforce/latest
.
But medical staff only includes doctors. It doesn't include clinical staff like nurses, midwives, health visitors and ambulance staff and probably a lot of other staff that most people would think of as medical.
ps I now see that Biker Biggles has already made this point.
svenrico
29-11-21, 12:25 AM
(I am aware of and declare my prejudice: I'm sorry if this sounds harsh or selfish to some, it's just the way I feel, but I'm really struggling with being compelled to put my own life essentially in a parking bay to generally protect over 70s and those at heightened risk of dying anyway. it's hard for me to act just to preserve a hope of extending 'senior years' by sacrificing or limiting the potential for joy in the present.)
Are you suggesting anybody over 70 doesn't deserve protecting ?!
svenrico
29-11-21, 12:45 PM
(I am aware of and declare my prejudice: I'm sorry if this sounds harsh or selfish to some, it's just the way I feel, but I'm really struggling with being compelled to put my own life essentially in a parking bay to generally protect over 70s and those at heightened risk of dying anyway. Why? Because I lost both my parents 'early': father at age 58, heart-related, mother at 59, cancer - both some years ago now before I reached age 30. It messed me up far more than I realised at the time and I still struggle today as a result of missng their counsel over the years since and making bad life decisions in the absence of their ongoing support. I've also got other life experiences where there's been, or is likely to be, 'premature' death or serious depression amongst friends and family. It hurts a lot when it happens but I've come to terms with the fact it does happen, and often can't be prevented from happening. So, as I now approach 52, with the possibility that the prognosis might be similar for me, i.e. I could be dead in less than a decade just because of my family history and genetic susceptibility, it's hard for me to act just to preserve a hope of extending 'senior years' by sacrificing or limiting the potential for joy in the present.)
I sympathise with your family situation but we are being asked to wear a mask in enclosed public spaces and on public transport as well as isolate for 10 days if you have covid, which is hardly putting your life in a parking bay.
In any case , it isn't just old people we are trying to protect, it is people like yourself if you are in a vulnerable category. Best wishes anyway, let's take precautions where we can.
Are you suggesting anybody over 70 doesn't deserve protecting ?!
No, that's an over-simplification. Being left more at risk by policy is not the same as being unprotected. The approach to dealing with all must be balanced and proportionate. It's always a trade-off and there isn't one perfect answer to be found. However, I can conceive that denying the young en-masse a reasonable expectation of social interaction, experience and wellbeing is possibly inappropriate (or unfair) and will lead to many other problems for individuals and society. Sadly there will inevitably be some who lose out whatever position is selected but we can't avoid making certain policy-level choices - that still sits uncomfortably for me, though.
I sympathise with your family situation but we are being asked to wear a mask in enclosed public spaces and on public transport as well as isolate for 10 days if you have covid, which is hardly putting your life in a parking bay.
In any case , it isn't just old people we are trying to protect, it is people like yourself if you are in a vulnerable category. Best wishes anyway, let's take precautions where we can.
Thank you for the suportive words. My life is a mess for a whole host of reasons but I'm definitely not looking for sympathy, I wrote what I did to provide context and illustrate the perspective of my opinions.
Whilst the imposed requirements nowadays are obviously not off-the-scale ridiculous, we have to accept that they follow c.18months that included draconian lockdown that prevented people seeing family and friends or doing any non-subsistence activities. That was definitely a parking bay existence! There also remains a continuing ribbon of fear being propogated that is further affecting the way society functions in general.
I may be "vulnerable" (but probably not in covid terms, against official categorisations, to my knowledge) but I do not want anyone to protect me - I am content to make my own choices about risks and take the consequences. (FWIW, I have immediate family far more vulnerable than me and they feel much the same way.) Prevention/Restriction/Limitation is culturally difficult in our way of life so we shouldn't be surprised that people push back. Unfortunately, restoring the joy of life we had pre-covid is far more complex than just allowing the activities to return with a mask and warnings about social distancing. I've taken reasonable precautions to guard myself (having the jabs etc.), and no question that if I suspect symptoms in me I will act to prevent pass-on as far as I can by isolating etc. However, I find the implicit demand that we should all behave in everything we do like everyone (including ourselves) is a killer, 'just in case', to be ever-present and insidious. And it's just demoralising for me.
keith_d
29-11-21, 03:21 PM
And it's just demoralising for me.
It's not great for the rest of us, but I think there's a lot more apathy about Covid now. I travelled on the underground yesterday for the first time in ages. Masks are required, but only 50% of people we wearing them and TfL staff clearly didnt' give a s**t either.
The new Omicron variant is still an unknown quantity. As usual, we won't know if it is genuinely important until it's too late to do anything about it. It might be another Delta which will race through the population, or a Beta which never really got going despite some worthwhile mutations.
The government isn't much better off at telling what's going to happen with Omicron than we are. So we'll just have to put up with their best guess and either:
a) Wear masks for a bit
b) Endure lockdown for a bit
c) Sit in a dark corner with buckets over our heads for two weeks
Option c) would probably stop Covid dead in its tracks, and two weeks of starvation would reduce the obesity problem significantly too. But it would result in a nation wide bucket shortage and none of the Tory party donors has a monopoly on buckets (yet).
Just my random ramblings,
Keith.
ethariel
29-11-21, 03:50 PM
I have written war and peace on this about 3 times and deleted it, too much of a rant.
3 Simple Things everyone can do.
Get all your Vaccinations done - Much less chance of getting Ill when you catch it, not designed to stop you catching covid but to help you survive the virus.
Wear a mask - simple, probably won't stop you getting it but really helps to stop you passing it on if you get it especially if it's between tests.
Don't be manky, keep your hands cleaned.
Yes it's a demoralising experience we have had for the past 18 odd months but truth be told, it's better than 300k+dead a trashed (worse than it is) NHS and Excel being used as a Morgue rather than an un-needed standby hospital.
Me? - Well i'm still hiding away as much as I can, have the bike for some fun (well when it's not icy anyway) and a PC for the rest of the time, much happier to lose a couple of year than end up dead.
...
and two weeks of starvation would reduce the obesity problem significantly too. But it would result in a nation wide bucket shortage and none of the Tory party donors has a monopoly on buckets (yet).
This made me smile and laugh, raising my spirits. Thank you Keith. :salut:
Rest of your post pretty much aligns with my thoughts and experiences. Especially the bit about London - I was there on business a couple of weeks ago and barring a few folks visible wearing masks, it felt just the same as it ever did, pre-covid. Hard to comprehend.
I had to laugh at this tweet regarding Omicron:
"This is not how I wanted to learn the Greek alphabet."
(Isla McKetta, MFA | #DreamBigFightHard@islaisreading)
SV650rules
30-11-21, 09:08 AM
I had to laugh at this tweet regarding Omicron:
"This is not how I wanted to learn the Greek alphabet."
The Greek alphabet has gone viral....
.
I had to laugh at this tweet regarding Omicron:
"This is not how I wanted to learn the Greek alphabet."
(Isla McKetta, MFA | #DreamBigFightHard@islaisreading)
With a background in maths and electrical engineering, I've come across quite a lot of 'stolen' greek letter usage. Intriguingly, Omicron is not one that seems to have common usage (although I do have a vague recollection of there being an industrial process control sensor manufaturer by that name.)
The Greek alphabet has gone viral...
Very good! :) :notworthy:
daktulos
01-12-21, 07:20 AM
With a background in maths and electrical engineering, I've come across quite a lot of 'stolen' greek letter usage. Intriguingly, Omicron is not one that seems to have common usage (although I do have a vague recollection of there being an industrial process control sensor manufaturer by that name.)
I dated a Greek girl once, so learned a tiny bit of modern Greek. One of the nice things about the language is that the pronunciation of the letters (and diphthongs) are consistent.
What amazed me was the fact that they're pronounced completely different to the way we do. So alpha, beta, gamma, delta are pronounced something like: alpha, veta, thelta, nghama. Mu and Nu are like "me' and "nee". Tau is like "taf".
But at least you can read a word and know how to pronounce it. You can't say that about English - hiccough, anyone?
...... You can't say that about English - hiccough, anyone?
One of Gyles Brandreth's anecdotes is what he called his dog........ Phydeaux
I had wondered why they call the most recent variant "Epsilon", following the usual order of the greek alphabet.
Then it was pointed out to me that there's an anagram of Omicron that seems to perfectly apply to the management approach of our elected policy-setters: Moronic! :rolleyes:
I wasn't sure what to conclude after reading this BBC website article (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59909860) today about the purported 'NHS crisis'.
For the most part it seems to read quite contrary to some of the general messages that are being bandied about relating to Covid situation, before hurriedly swinging back at the end towards the more usual theme of message we're hearing at present. I found that skewed presentation quite surprising.
So, what to think? Is Covid actually the problem or is the NHS response (to be able to treat those cases that actually need it) now closer to the real issue?:confused:
Don't forget that 40 new hospitals were promised - so presumably there (is) was a need for more facilities.
(Only 6 may be built)
We were also promised 50,000 new nurses.
(15,000 of which were already working, due to leave and were going to be tempted into staying)
We are also short of 50,000 doctors.
By accident or design, the NHS is slowly being run down. Bit by bit privatisation is being introduced (remember Branson suing the NHS because he didn't get a contract?). The "NHS" Test and Trace was Serco. I had an "NHS" cat scan which was performed by a private company.
The Conservatives would prefer to move closer to the US health insurance model in the belief that private companies are more efficient and offer competition. Tylenol (Paracetamol) is about $80 a bottle in a US hospital and about $2 in a drug store. My friend in Arkansas cannot always afford his insulin by the end of the year because of his Medicare coverage and the insulin type he needs. My first child was born in the US before our health insurance covered us, it was very expensive. I hope we don't go down the same path.
The NHS is funded by general taxation and boosted by NI payments. 12.8% of GDP goes to healthcare.
Should we pay a token cost for each doctor's visit to cut needless GP visits? Should more money be spent on healthy living? 63% of UK population is obese/overweight (35 million people). Difficult decisions.
I think covid has shone a spotlight on the problems that were already present in the NHS. I suspect it will get worse with employee burn out assuming this pandemic ever goes away.
As a nation we are aging and our overall health as individuals is getting worse, I'm no longer sure that pumping increasing amounts of money into the NHS is going to fix the problem.
edit: the NHS spends £18 billion/yr on obesity related issues. https://theconversation.com/what-is-the-national-food-strategy-and-how-could-it-change-the-way-england-eats-164410
Maybe we need to look at that.
we cant have our cake and eat it.. either the public start to pay more into our NHS or it will be privatised.. its that simple. furlough has cost the uk big time but where is the money coming from???? the uk was skint (trillions in debt) before this whole covid stuff. do we sell off some land? get the public to pay more tax??? either way something will have to happen but no matter what is decided you can bet that the public will blame the gov....
either way something will have to happen but no matter what is decided you can bet that the public will blame the gov....
Yes, why shouldn't the people in charge of those decisions get the blame for not investing in public services with public tax money. . . . . .
i'm pretty sure there's no public vote about where they spend our tax money, otherwise things would be a lot different,.
Conservative philosophy is that government should be kept to a minimum so the concept of a nationalised health system is an anathema to them. We have got so used to our welfare safety net that personal health responsibility has slipped. We eat too much junk food making us obese but is that it because it tastes good or it's just cheaper than eating healthily and many people can no longer afford healthy food? Whatever the cause it's making us less healthy and costing us all.
svenrico
09-01-22, 12:04 AM
Well they have been talking about preventative medicine for a while now to encourage us to lead a healthier lifestyle but doctors can't force people in these things. The problem with private companies/contracts/services being involved in the NHS is they have to make a profit. Things in the NHS need to be non profit making as much as possible.
ethariel
09-01-22, 02:21 AM
Over 1,000,000 people work in the NHS and what, 35-40% actually are involved in patient care?
The rest are office staff, FM and management.
Cutting FM is a really bad move, to be honest most FM departments are run right on the line between keeping everything working just hitting statutory maintenance and falling down a deep deep hole.
Cut all the back end admin/management staff, consolidate departments country wide doing the same job into 'Super Department's' - Not a hope, the Unions will kill people for months making that one go to bed with endless strikes etc.
Moving to a 'Privatised' NHS to me is abhorrent BUT in all reality it's the only way forward, for too many years the way politicians have looked after the NHS is simply to keep tossing money at it, but hell it's not even a dead horse any more it's a bottomless pit.
Moving to a 'Privatised' NHS to me is abhorrent BUT in all reality it's the only way forward.
The problem with private companies/contracts/services being involved in the NHS is they have to make a profit.
cause and effect. Sick people are a drain on profits.
What happens in privatised health care is that the for-profit hospitals realise that they can charge what they like and the insurance companies will pay. The insurance companies start to realise this and increase premiums, those people with insurance provided through their work find that they have to pay much more for their part of the coverage. Many opt to forego health insurance altogether and pray they don't get sick.
Then there is prescription drugs - depending which insurance carrier you have will determine which drugs will be paid for.
Get sick, go bankrupt:
https://nypost.com/2017/01/12/majority-of-americans-are-one-medical-emergency-away-from-financial-ruin/
On the other hand, in California there was a scandal because a hospital was putting sick people into taxis and dumping in them in another city to avoid affecting their bottom line.
Here; This needs to stop: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-59924352 The story is about Wales but it afflicts the whole of the UK.
25% of 999 calls are frivolous.
There are between 350 and 450 million GP visits per year, if each visit cost £10 it would raise £3.5-£4.5 billion.
https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/reports/thenhsif/what-if-people-were-to-pay-10-to-see-a-gp/
privatised NHS = dead people in the streets. out parents/grandparents fought a war then voted in a government to bring free healthcare to the masses. for this pleasure we paid a small premium out our wages. simple solution to keep the NHS running is up the NI contributions and ring fence it and ban private health care so everyone is forced to use the NHS including the rich.
svenrico
09-01-22, 08:05 PM
Moving to a 'Privatised' NHS to me is abhorrent BUT in all reality it's the only way forward, for too many years the way politicians have looked after the NHS is simply to keep tossing money at it, but hell it's not even a dead horse any more it's a bottomless pit.
Privatisation isn't the only way forward, the way forward is to make sure the NHS is managed properly like any organisation should be.
I don't think full privatisation is the way forward. The problem with that is many health services are reactive/emergency and so there isn't time to 'shop around'. E.g. if one of us is badly hurt as a result of a bike accident, how do we know we're getting the service we want (the preferred blend of cost/quality from the ambuance pickup and subsequent hospital care, for example)? A distressed buyer is always ripe for being taken advantage of, it's not a true/fair market.
However, I'm not against people being able to pay more by way of insurance to get enhancements in care or extra financial compensation. Nor do I mind the NHS buying-in private resources from time to time to 'peak lop' - that's prudent business sense to control the possible wasted overhead that comes from having to gear up against uncertain, variable demand.
I agree that just throwing more money at it is not the right answer either (although we do need to include some consideration of injecting new funding for new/better treatments that might be necessary as health science improves, as well as just dealing with general population growth and demographic effects).
From my experiences dealing with the NHS, there does seem to be a lot of organisational/management inefficiency in the system. I'm be very surprised if there isn't 'middle management' that can be simplified, or duplication across Trusts/regions that couldn't be rationalised.
Perhaps instead of charging people for appointments (which would in some cases discourage those who do need help from seeking it), there should be a nominal penalty charge levied if you book something and simply don't show up (which I'm told happens quite a lot). I.e. turn up and it's free, mess the system about and it's not. I'm told parts of the Australian Medicare system use this approach. It could reduce waste and bring in some revenue.
redtrummy
09-01-22, 09:48 PM
I seem to remember reading that per capita our costs were some of the lowest in the civilised world. Americas equivalent was astronomically higher. (That did not take into account those who could not afford treatment anyway) Private medical care if full flow.
Over 1,000,000 people work in the NHS and what, 35-40% actually are involved in patient care?
According to https://digital.nhs.uk/data-and-information/publications/statistical/nhs-workforce-statistics/january-2021
it's (copied and pasted) 1,327,892 Headcount in January 2021 and Professionally qualified clinical staff make up over half (53.0%) of the HCHS workforce (624,572 FTE) in January 2021.
(This group includes all HCHS doctors, qualified nurses and health visitors, midwives, qualified scientific, therapeutic and technical staff and qualified ambulance staff.)
I don't know whether that's good, bad or indifferent, presumably the remainder includes management, maintenance, service departments, porters etc.
garynortheast
11-01-22, 08:32 AM
Keeping us all safe eh?
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/moment-tories-ordered-brits-not-to-meet-55-minutes-before-pm-attended-no10-party/ar-AASDwMi?ocid=msedgntp
Keeping us all safe eh?
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/moment-tories-ordered-brits-not-to-meet-55-minutes-before-pm-attended-no10-party/ar-AASDwMi?ocid=msedgntp
I suppose, technically, if you didn't get an invite he did keep you safe. :)
It's a good job that Boris has a track record of telling the truth, behaving ethically and keeping to the rules or I might suspect some shenanigans. :rolleyes:
ethariel
11-01-22, 09:10 AM
Privatisation isn't the only way forward, the way forward is to make sure the NHS is managed properly like any organisation should be.
Agreed, HOWEVER if you leave the Civil Service to manage anything you know it's going to either fail or come online 10 years late, out of date and 5x over budget.
The ONLY way to make it work is have a Private Company run it and be able to make a profit based on performance - Privatised healthcare.
If it's run by the government or civil service they have absolutely no incentive to make it work as all they have to do is hold thier hand out for more funding every time they need it, a 'Private' company does not have that luxury.
Keeping us all safe eh?
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/moment-tories-ordered-brits-not-to-meet-55-minutes-before-pm-attended-no10-party/ar-AASDwMi?ocid=msedgntp
WTF has someone's dad dying four days before the email was sent out got to do with anything.. loads of people died in the country and not just from covid in those four days. this is a classic example of the media trying to get the public riled up.
i know i'm pizzing people off but someone has to play devils advocate :dwarf:
its tough if people dont like their current government but they were voted in by the majority and in this country the majority rule as its not a dictatorship.
these is a simple solution to the anger people feel when reading media/news... its called stop reading the stuff :thumbsup:
redtrummy
11-01-22, 10:01 AM
I have to agree with you Bibo, but it doesn't make it acceptable.
Integrity and honesty are sadly lacking from the Government.
ethariel
11-01-22, 10:19 AM
Email sent on behalf of.....
So a minion/secretary sent the email out, that means it was in all probability a Civil Servant and not an elected member of Government.
Besides as the email is labelled 'Official Sensitive' technically whomever leaked the email has breached the Official Secrets Act (and yes every person who works in the civil service, permanent, temp or contractor) all sign that as part of the clearance process and you cant have an account without the clearance.
its tough if people dont like their current government but they were voted in by the majority and in this country the majority rule as its not a dictatorship.
these is a simple solution to the anger people feel when reading media/news... its called stop reading the stuff :thumbsup:
If corruption, unethical behaviour, cronyism and rule breaking is discovered it should be reported so voters can (hopefully) make better decisions next time.
Burying our heads in the sand definitely won't help. Personally, I look at right wing and left wing media outlets and form my opinions from them. If I think something stinks I write to my MP.
We need people to stop voting for personalities ("what a lovable rogue Boris is" versus "isn't Kier Starmer boring"). Show me your manifesto promises and then stick to them if you're voted in (which the current government has not done).
Do your opinions rile me up? No, they're as worthless as mine - they're opinions and like a$$holes, everyone has one. Equally, if you don't like people commenting about the current government in a thread, don't read the thread :smile:
ethariel
11-01-22, 11:14 AM
Show me your manifesto promises and then stick to them if you're voted in
My own pet bugbear when it comes to Political parties.
IMHO Political Parties should be legally bound to carry out thier Manifesto pledges, after all those are the reasons people voted for them in the first place
Presently any old ******** can be stuffed into a manifesto as there is nothing to make that party actually carry any of it out, it's just ethereal waffle.
Integrity and honesty are sadly lacking from the Government.
its not just the Government of the UK its the whole world. social media has been a massive part in this. we now have a widespread "i'm alright Jack" attitude.
could be worse though we cold be living in North Korea or some third world country in Africa.
the UK with all its faults and Government is the best place to stay. yes there are better places but you have to be mega rich to stay there like Dubai for instance.
Biker Biggles
11-01-22, 05:01 PM
its not just the Government of the UK its the whole world. social media has been a massive part in this. we now have a widespread "i'm alright Jack" attitude.
could be worse though we cold be living in North Korea or some third world country in Africa.
the UK with all its faults and Government is the best place to stay. yes there are better places but you have to be mega rich to stay there like Dubai for instance.
You are right and the best way to keep it that way is to ensure that we are informed about what our leaders are up to so that we can hold them to account. Thats why we need a free press and proper standards in public office.
Meanwhile, the latest in anti-vaxx medicine:
https://i.redd.it/a8awthfzz1b81.jpg
I'll stick with the vaccine, thanks. :)
garynortheast
11-01-22, 06:59 PM
He's just taking the p1ss!
Agreed, HOWEVER if you leave the Civil Service to manage anything you know it's going to either fail or come online 10 years late, out of date and 5x over budget.
The ONLY way to make it work is have a Private Company run it and be able to make a profit based on performance - Privatised healthcare.
If it's run by the government or civil service they have absolutely no incentive to make it work as all they have to do is hold thier hand out for more funding every time they need it, a 'Private' company does not have that luxury.
I strongly disagree that it has to be private to make it work. That's just an over-simplification of what's involved
:rant:
For starters, why does it have to be a for-profit organisation? There's plenty of successful not-for-profit entities out there that don't have the blank-cheque backing that you seem to suggest the public sector does.
Another problem with your concept is that a private firm facing financial diffculties can just go bankrupt and stop delivering the service when the going gets tough. The priority will become to balance the books (maintaining profitability first), not to deliver the healthcare: The reaction will be to compromise delivery, make excuses, but keep the shareholders happy! Have you not seen the recent energy sector examples? Or perhaps some of the not-too-distant events in the rail industry? Replicating events that have happened there wouldn't be good in a national healthcare situation.
What metrics would you put in place to be able to gauge the 'performance' of these private healthcare providers, given the uncertain and variable nature of the demand for their services? How would you price the contracts? E.g., what unit price for an A&E department on a Saturday night to give a, say, 2 hour wait time SLA?
And a public sector proposal doesn't get funding that easily, especially 'extra' funding once initial approvals have been given. Have you ever had to deal with public sector governance? Competition is very intense for a share of the public purse. The numbers are big but so is the scale of the works and it's still not an infinitely deep pot. Often the reason things end up 'over-budget' is because they were (maybe deliberately) badly estimated in the first place to secure the initial green light by getting over an arbitrary 'expect to pay' hurdle - dealing with the politics of 'you won't please everyone' so it inevitably becomes a compromise situation with much pushing of problems into the future rather than facing failure now. We've become quite a selfish society - Everybody seems to want things cheap in this country and no-one wants to pay for anyone except themselves.
I'm not saying the public sector is wonderfully brilliant at all it does, far from it, but suggesting the private sector is dramatically better in all cases isn't accurate either. It's horses for courses. The scale, complexity and uncertainty associated with many public sector requirements would panic many a private sector Director. 'Joe Public' is a hellish Chairman of the Board!:smt084
So, whether private or public, distill it all down and there still needs to be a balance between the cost to be incurred and the funding available. Too often it's just badly out of balance, with one side or the other being inaccurately calculated (for a variety of reasons, some good, some not so good). Then the games begin!
... Besides as the email is labelled 'Official Sensitive' technically whomever leaked the email has breached the Official Secrets Act ...
Sorry, you're not quite right with that. "Official Sensitive" is actually quite a low level of data classification. "Official" makes it, well, official. "Sensitive" basically just means not for general consumption, be a bit more careful with handling.
It's not necessarily a breach of the Official Secrets Act to release something like this. However, it is poor form IMHO and should be a disciplinary matter. Sadly, controlled 'leaks' appear to be part of the Westminster system of politics and government communication nowadays. (Plausible deniability to hedge bets on reaction - a 'leak' can always be later denied if it doesn't go down well enough, whereas an official release can't.)
...
its tough if people dont like their current government but they were voted in by the majority and in this country the majority rule as its not a dictatorship.
...
If corruption, unethical behaviour, cronyism and rule breaking is discovered it should be reported so voters can (hopefully) make better decisions next time.
...
if you don't like people commenting about the current government ...
I wonder if 'the Opposition' know your view Bibio?;)
Personally I find it pretty sad that we pay an 'Opposition' of MPs who's role seems to be solely just to whinge and moan. I feel the role of the whole of Parliament is to ensure the country is run as well as it can be for all the population. Shame our system doesn't really enable that.
Holding people to account is about more than just complaining about what they're doing. There needs to be some suggestion or indication of how it ought to be done better, and effort to make it that way.
IMHO, our 'Opposition' or the other alternatives are just as bad as 'Government'. Pretty slim pickings, it seems. So it's no wonder we keep getting repeat selections of 'least worst'. I agree that must start with exposing the ills so we can purge the bad or unfit for office at the earliest opportunity. It would just be good if there was something quite radically different on offer that voters could enthuse about as a replacement for a change, rather than getting more of the same.
vBulletin® , Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.