Renewable Energy Discussion thread [Archive] - SV650.org

Ruffy

02-12-20, 12:09 AM

Look on gridwatch UK templar site and since last Wednesday up to Monday the fans on sticks hardly contributed 2% to UK grid demand
Windfarms rely as much on proliferation around the country as individual efficency. As it happens we're reasonably fortunate in the UK compared to many other countries. I remember reading an analysis report from National Grid Control Room a number of years ago that showed that whilst the wind may not be blowing in one part of the country, it's very rare for the whole of the UK and its waters to be still. IIRC, there was about 5 years worth of data and there were only 2 days when there was no output possible at all.

2% does seem a bit low though and I wonder if there were other balancing mechanism factors involved (though I'm out of date on current situation - I've been out of the industry a few years).

( which was getting into the Orange zone approaching 40 gigawatt - and that is without charging electric vehicles )
FYI, UK maximum demand at winter peak is c. 60-65GW. EV charging demand will likely push that up but not as much as you might think because most of the charging is unlikely to be at the same time as evening mealtimes - cookers, lights, heating, TVs on etc. (with a bit of charge control tech to regulate timing.)

And what they don't tell you about Wind turbines is the blades go to landfill as they can't be recycled . . . . .
Or about the 100 tons of concrete to build the bases to hold them in place . . .
Nor the fleets of diesel powered boats used to access/service them when they're offshore.

Having said that, it still works out pretty well but don't be taken in by anyone who claims that windfarms are perfectly 'green'.

Adam Ef

02-12-20, 09:26 AM

And what they don't tell you about Wind turbines is the blades go to landfill as they can't be recycled . . . . .

They can with some imagination... looks pretty elegant too I'd say..

https://twitter.com/denmarkdotdk/status/1228657962320715781?lang=en

SV650rules

02-12-20, 09:49 AM

2% does seem a bit low though and I wonder if there were other balancing mechanism factors involved (though I'm out of date on current situation - I've been out of the industry a few years).

The simple fact is that there was no wind, very often in winter in UK we get stuck in a high pressure area where the isobars are social distancing - some of the coldest weather is during highs as no cloud cover, but during winter solar is only available for a few hours a day as well, during the 'warmest and brightest' part of the day when arguably needed the least.

Today only about 13% supplied by wind, 0.5% by solar and the rest by gas fired power stations ( what a waste ) nuclear, biomass cables across channel and even about 7% by coal fired stations.

Seeker

05-12-20, 07:40 PM

I guess we* won't all be charging our electric cars this weekend.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/u-k-power-prices-jump-153739655.html

* I don't have an electric car. :(

embee

05-12-20, 10:01 PM

I guess we* won't all be charging our electric cars this weekend.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/u-k-power-prices-jump-153739655.html

* I don't have an electric car. :(

Let's hurry up and get rid of all those domestic gas boilers and switch everyone to nice clean electric heating ....... well it will be clean when there isn't any.

Seeker

06-12-20, 08:36 AM

Let's hurry up and get rid of all those domestic gas boilers and switch everyone to nice clean electric heating ....... well it will be clean when there isn't any.

The problem, in my opinion, is not that it cannot be done rather that a goal is announced with a fanfare but then insufficient resources are allocated to achieve the goal.

Once the phrases "world beater" or "leading the world" are used you know it's doomed to failure.

I would like to see a strategic plan that goes beyond the life of one Parliament so opposition parties would need to be included to ensure continuity. I'd also like to see world peace but that's not happening either. :rolleyes:

What we will get is some bodged up compromise that doesn't do anything particularly well with lots of photo ops of MPs wearing hard harts/hi-viz saying how wonderful everything is.

SV650rules

06-12-20, 10:10 AM

Anyone with their eyes on the ball and not blinkered by the greenies saw this coming ages ago. We ran out of gas a few years ago ( the Russians were laughing when they sent UK a tanker full of gas ) because we are burning it in power stations by the megalitre instead of using if more efficiently for local heat in gas boilers

Only a matter of time before we have rolling blackouts in UK, all because our politicians are incapable of understanding anything but eroding our liberties with draconian laws and fiddling their expenses...

Having to rely on France for nuclear generated power in the ultimate irony, several times for periods of 4 days or more in the last few months solar and wind have contributed a tiny dribble of power to our grid while everything else runs flat out to keep our lights on. Would be so funny if HS2 could not run due to lack of power when the money would have been better spent of proper power stations. I read an article by the German professor who used to run German grid, he said 'for every renewable you have to build 100% conventional generating backup' - which is why Germans continued to build coal burning power stations, and why they are one of the worlds largest industrial economies....

Seeker

06-12-20, 01:19 PM

which is why Germans continued to build coal burning power stations, and why they are one of the worlds largest industrial economies....

that's not wholly true. The public outcry after the Japanese Fukushima disaster within Germany forced the governments hand to phase out nuclear power which in turn required them to build coal fired power stations.

The German public have a history of mistrusting nuclear power hence the "Atomkraft? Nein danke" protests.

Ruffy

06-12-20, 01:27 PM

... we are burning it in power stations by the megalitre instead of using if more efficiently for local heat in gas boilers
That would be an interesting comparative analysis to see. Gas transmission and distribution isn't straightforward or without losses too. I'm open minded, I've never looked at the large scale economics.

Only a matter of time before we have rolling blackouts in UK, all because our politicians are incapable ...
I still have enough trust in National Grid and DNO staffers not to worry about this coming true. Politicians and their lapdog civil servants at Ofgem and in senior management on the other hand ...

Having to rely on France for nuclear generated power in the ultimate irony, several times for periods of 4 days or more in the last few months solar and wind have contributed a tiny dribble of power to our grid while everything else runs flat out to keep our lights on. Would be so funny if HS2 could not run due to lack of power when the money would have been better spent of proper power stations. I read an article by the German professor who used to run German grid, he said 'for every renewable you have to build 100% conventional generating backup'
Arguably this is where thinking 'country' in isolation doesn't help. It's probably more efficient to interconnect than to build lots of local country-based systems. In that respect, I value the pan-european work of ENTSOE-E and others. (N.B. this isn't intended to start a Brexit debate. On a technical level, the challenge of 'balancing the system' remains the same irrespective of the administrative and economic framework in place.)

... Germans continued to build coal burning power stations, and why they are one of the worlds largest industrial economies....
Isn't this one of the things people criticise China for? Ironic?

I also understand that the Germans invest heavily in renewables, especially wind, and personally I think 100% conventional backup at national scale is unecessary. For example, large scale interconnection as mentioned above is viable to help minimise excessive cumulative plant margin.

SV650rules

06-12-20, 03:50 PM

that's not wholly true. The public outcry after the Japanese Fukushima disaster within Germany forced the governments hand to phase out nuclear power which in turn required them to build coal fired power stations.

The German public have a history of mistrusting nuclear power hence the "Atomkraft? Nein danke" protests.

Makes no difference why they built them, the fact is they did and are using them... the same German expert said that as long as renewables are less than 25% of your system you were OK because the other systems could cover the inevitable shortfall.... Germany seems to be more pragmatic than us when it comes to powering their country, but hold on a minute we dumped dirty manufacturing and now have a low carbon service economy.....

Seeker

06-12-20, 05:45 PM

As for Maggie Thatcher, she did what she had to do to drag this country into the modern world, away from the power of unions.

quote from "Justified Vandalism" thread.

but hold on a minute we dumped dirty manufacturing and now have a low carbon service economy

Yes, she crushed the unions and closed the mines and dragged the country into the modern world... no coal mines and, until Drax power station recently switched over to wood pellets, coal was being imported (via Immingham) from Poland.

If we had politicians with science and engineering degrees instead of "Classics, ancient literature and classical philosophy" (BoZo) maybe things would improve although, having said that, Thatcher was a chemist.

We need a coherent, long term energy plan because all we have now are aspirations and like "leveling up", they are mere sound bites.

The German government wanted to retain nuclear but bowed to the will of the people, they want Russian gas but are now being pressured by the US to stop that (NordStream2); they can't win and so coal it is. We have choices but no plan - we commit to Hinkley Point C and need the French and Chinese to build it for us and then have to guarantee to pay well over the going rate for its electricity.

Grant66

06-12-20, 06:04 PM

UK is building modular nuclear reactors though.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-54703204

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Seeker

06-12-20, 06:22 PM

UK is building modular nuclear reactors though.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-54703204

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...from that link (my stressing)
"The consortium says the first of these modular plants could be up and running in 10 years, after that it will be able to build and install two a year."

So 2030, isn't that cutting it a bit fine? Like I said, no coherent energy plan. I had wondered who made the nuclear submarine reactors (RR) and if they could be adapted but they are about a third the power of these modular reactors.

Incidentally the EDF Hinkley Point C reactor is the same type as the Olkiluoto 3 (Finland) reactor which is over 10 years behind schedule.

Grant66

06-12-20, 06:33 PM

Didn't say it was coherent [emoji1787]

It does seem to be a fire fighting exercise, government has probably been dithering about making a decision for a few years.

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Sir Trev

07-12-20, 07:28 PM

... but hold on a minute we dumped dirty manufacturing and now have a low carbon service economy.....

I'm not so sure it's as low carbon as people think. The IT industry uses massive amounts of energy to power networks and especially storage facilities. Some of that will be out of this country though as the cloud means your data will often be stored in a location with cheaper (not necessarily renewable-sourced) energy. It's very hard to judge.

ethariel

07-12-20, 08:12 PM

Well the first big tranche of Carbon Savings in the Uk came from all the low cost/no cost savings in the run up to the CRC (Which everyone got kicked in the nuts over when HM Gov decided they were keeping all the money instead of paying it back to those making the most difference) something to do with an income of £12/tonne CO2 = probably in the region of 1-2 billion a year since 2009, got to fun the stupid FIT prices offered to Solar/Wind somehow!

Seeker

10-12-20, 11:40 AM

The only problem with being cynical is that when you read a science headline with "could" in the title you're immediately prejudiced...

https://techxplore.com/news/2020-12-solid-state-automotive-battery-ev-industry.html

...on the other hand, I planted a tree today :D Then the cynicism kicks in because I remember reading that it takes about 60 trees to equate to most people's carbon footprint (can't find source though, so it might have been a dream).

SV650rules

10-12-20, 06:16 PM

Bill gates involved again, so battery will never be finished, will need constant updates and will slow down anything it is installed in You will know when it is updating as you will have no control over the car and will be unable to shut it down until uncle Bill has finished messing with it. There is also a good chance that after an update various parts of the car will no longer work properly...

She you see these breakthroughs think of the TV program 'tommorows world' and how few of the amazing things they showed ever happened.

embee

18-12-20, 11:39 AM

SV650rules

18-12-20, 02:20 PM

This is quite interesting reading (for those of a nerdy disposition)
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/894920/Press_Notice_June_2020.pdf
Renewable electricity generation in the UK is increasing quite substantially, and appears to be more or less directly substituting for gas, that being the most easily varied source. Reasonably encouraging I feel.

Hardly encouraging, look on here
http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

Quite a few times in the last few months wind has pretty much disappeared for 4 to 5 day stretches... and solar has been well below 1% for months ( well it is winter in UK ). The upshot was that gas, nuclear, biomass, hydro and cables from France etc. were flat out to make up the shortfall from renewables. The grid even issued a shortage warning ( where price goes up ) - truth is for every wind turbine you need 100% conventional power backup - we cannot run a country using fans on sticks, which is why Germany was building coal fired stations until recently
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-13/germany-s-farewell-to-coal-complicated-by-new-uniper-plant and China still building them at a good rate.

UK is responsible for about 1.5% of world emissions, whatever we do makes a miniscule difference to anything... we are saddling our country with unreliable renewables and risk making UK uncompetitive, high energy costs are the reason UK is not a good place for heavy industry and steelmaking etc.

Luckypants

18-12-20, 02:43 PM

truth is for every wind turbine you need 100% conventional power backup

Or battery back up / pumped stored hydro / more inter-connects / etc. Yes renewable energy is unreliable and we need to mitigate against that. Generally the UK has wind blowing somewhere in it's environs, so wind can do a good job. Its a case of storing surplus energy from renewables for when its not quite meeting demand. A battery, a pumped storage scheme or "lending" it to another country are ways of doing this. I don't think current technology is the complete answer, but we HAVE to find the answer.

Humankind cannot just keep burning stuff if the planet (and out children) are to survive.

Seeker

18-12-20, 02:58 PM

We currently (!) have about 1 GW of storage but hoping to raise that to 10 GW by 2025 (about a third of daily consumption).
https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/energy-storage-uk-capacity-increasing/

One interesting range of ideas is to use old coal mines for geothermal energy production or kinetic storage:
https://www.theengineer.co.uk/generating-clean-energy-from-the-coal-mines/

timwilky

18-12-20, 03:16 PM

My own preferred solution re storage of excess renewable energy has always been for hydrogen production. Storable and clean to use. Whether that use is use to burn as a fuel in an ICE or within a fuel cell to generate electricery. But I still think we need to look at renewables development around tidal. It is predicatable and guaranteed.

Unfortunately UK energy policies are built for cities where everyone is clustered, local heat and power initiatives etc, You do not need to be rural to have no infrstructure. and those that are, have little. My daughter has an oil fired boiler, no gas. her house was built in 1629 and listed. so prevented from most insulation initiatives. She cannot even double glaze. What will she do when new boilers are banned?

embee

18-12-20, 07:29 PM

Hardly encouraging,

...... Germany was building coal fired stations until recently ......

Whether it is encouraging or not depends on whether you consider instantaneous or year-averaged generation. Sure flexible back-up is needed, but that doesn't necessarily mean the renewables are not worth the effort. Your opinion may well vary.

Germany's generation by renewables is increasing substantially, reportedly up to 46% for 2019. In 2018 green accounted for 40.6% in 2018, up from 38.2% in 2017, so pretty determined growth.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-germany-power-outputmix/renewable-energys-share-of-german-power-mix-rose-to-46-last-year-research-group-idUKKBN1Z21K1
The coal issue is clearly a subject of contention, but I'm sure it's a stop-gap for the decommissioning of nuclear, and coal is planned to be phased out.

SV650rules

18-12-20, 07:50 PM

UK has over 40% of power as renewables, but as I said earlier that it often goes below 10% for days on end. Now grid storage for filling peaks and troughs of demand throughout 24 hours is one thing but grid storage that can cater for almost complete absence of renewables for 4 or 5 days in winter is quite another matter. Presently up to 45gigawatt is normal, just take a look at how much extra power is gonna be needed for electric vehicle and the scale of the problem of relying too much on renewables should be apparent...

The alternative is to build massive amounts of renewables to blight the country side and cross fingers that in the bad times you get enough, but remember the renewable companies have to be paid even when not needed by grid, so maybe a big increase in your electric bill.

punyXpress

18-12-20, 10:21 PM

Solution: solar power.
Fill the fields with solar panels.
Watch the weight drop off and all will be less fat ?

Ruffy

19-12-20, 12:02 AM

... truth is for every wind turbine you need 100% conventional power backup
This is only your opinion, not a universal truth. You stated it earlier in the thread but repetition does not make it true. I for one don't agree.

...we cannot run a country using fans on sticks, which is why Germany was building coal fired stations until recently
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-13/germany-s-farewell-to-coal-complicated-by-new-uniper-plant and China still building them at a good rate.
Building coal is short term and non-sustainable (by definition, eventually non-renewable fuels will run out)

Or battery back up / pumped stored hydro / more inter-connects / etc. Yes renewable energy is unreliable and we need to mitigate against that. Generally the UK has wind blowing somewhere in it's environs, so wind can do a good job. Its a case of storing surplus energy from renewables for when its not quite meeting demand. A battery, a pumped storage scheme or "lending" it to another country are ways of doing this. I don't think current technology is the complete answer, but we HAVE to find the answer.

Humankind cannot just keep burning stuff if the planet (and out children) are to survive.
Whether it is encouraging or not depends on whether you consider instantaneous or year-averaged generation. Sure flexible back-up is needed, but that doesn't necessarily mean the renewables are not worth the effort. Your opinion may well vary.

The coal issue is clearly a subject of contention, but I'm sure it's a stop-gap for the decommissioning of nuclear, and coal is planned to be phased out.
+1. Opinions do vary but I hope that there will soon be consensus on the general point that we need to continue searching hard and fast to determine a sustainable solution. Pragmatically, it may take several steps to get there but that's no reason not to take the first step or two.

The alternative is to build massive amounts of renewables to blight the country side ...
I can see you're not a fan (sic) of windfarms from your repeated posts and choice of words. So no doubt you'll hate me for pointing out that having just had a quick look at the National Grid ESO TEC Register, there's c.65GW of proposed wind generation currently contracted to connect to the national grid. Currently there's about 15GW wind connected so it could be a fair step up, though note that 80% of it is offshore wind. (UK max demand winter peak historically tends to be c.55-60GW. FYI, there's also about another 60GW of non-wind connections contracted, mainly nuclear and gas. Very little is tidal, which as timwilky points out is a bit of a missed opportunity since it's the most predicatble natural sustainable 'fuel' source. Unless someone's expecting the moon to stop orbiting?! Maybe it will come, in time?)

Admittedly a lot of that will be speculative and effectively in competition with each other so it won't all get built but it is correct that larger amounts of total connected capacity gives resilience against supply variation. The initial part of you point about the alternative appears to be correct.

... and cross fingers that in the bad times you get enough, but remember the renewable companies have to be paid even when not needed by grid, so maybe a big increase in your electric bill.
Sorry, I think this is scaremongering. It's not crossing fingers in bad times, it's analysing the data of the past and extrapolating forward. Some speculation and uncertainty, yes, but not pure hope. Also, generators are only paid to not generate in certain circumstances for system balancing. For the most part the operation is driven by the supply market and trading-led. Capital financing (loan interest) is probably the biggest fixed cost and funders tend not to invest in utilities when prospective return is dicey so they're unlikely to back something that would have a big disruptive influence on prices that would affect billing revenues. Also remember that for wind and solar the 'fuel' is free so that should theoretically lead to a reduction in cost to offset lower time in productive service.

Ruffy

19-12-20, 12:07 AM

Solution: solar power.
Fill the fields with solar panels.
The problem with solar is that the sun isn't there at night! This needs to be paired with an energy storage solution.

Believe it or not, 'lots of parked up electric cars' has been mooted as a possibility for that. It's effectively a large scale battery farm. How do you fancy agreeing that your electric car may only be part charged in the morning because it's been helping to keep the lights on overnight at the local hospital/factory/pub/nightspot etc.?

SV650rules

19-12-20, 09:26 AM

The problem with solar is that the sun isn't there at night! This needs to be paired with an energy storage solution.

Believe it or not, 'lots of parked up electric cars' has been mooted as a possibility for that. It's effectively a large scale battery farm. How do you fancy agreeing that your electric car may only be part charged in the morning because it's been helping to keep the lights on overnight at the local hospital/factory/pub/nightspot etc.?

There has been very little solar power in the last month or two, it has been down below 1% for long periods. Who would have thought using solar power in UK ( with barely 7 hours of daylight ) when you need power the most was a good idea, especially with banning of gas boilers that may have to be replaced with 20 to 30Kw electric boilers ( that is 80 to 120 amps, or more than the total power most homes now get ) add in another 10KW to charge an electric car and each house will need an enormous amount of power and streets will need new cables. I suppose that very expensive ground source heat pumps will be suggested next... Electric cars expensive ( even when subsidised by taxpayers who can never afford one) are way out of the reach of 90% of the population, even if you can afford one you need a place to charge it.

Using electric vehicle batteries as grid backup is a typical fudge you expect from governments who don't think things through. It is a bit like agreeing for them to siphon fuel out of your tank and hope it gets put back in time for when you need to use the car...... There is also the problem that it would use up the charge and discharge cycle life on the battery, shortening its life.

Fossil fuels freed humans from a subsistence existence at the mercy of nature, and enables our comfortable modern life, and stopped the chopping down of all our forests for fuel - now we have put ourselves back at the mercy of nature... I suppose that can be called progress....LOL

According to a recent NASA report, the higher CO2 levels are actually greening the planet ( clue, plants need CO2 to grow ) and could result in deserts becoming fertile again, as well as getting increased yield from present farmland. As for climate change, sea levels have been both higher and lower in the past on the planet, so at present we are somewhere in the middle, hardly cause for the present climate hysteria we are seeing.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/901016/Wind-farms-subsidies-Renewable-Energy-Foundation-National-Grid

Seeker

19-12-20, 10:08 AM

Electric boilers...how quaint. A typical house in the UK requires 12kW/h of heat per year. A heat pump efficiency is measured by CoP (Coefficient of Performance) so a pump with a CoP of 3 would produce 3kW of heat for every 1kW of electricity used and a typical house would therefore require 4kW per year. This link:
https://www.viessmann.co.uk/heating-advice/Do-heat-pumps-use-a-lot-of-electricity
shows that it works out cheaper than gas at current(!) prices.

Re-purposing old electric car batteries is not a government fudge:
https://energypost.eu/grid-scale-solar-pv-storage-can-use-re-purposed-old-ev-batteries/

Yes we needed fossil fuels to produce our civilisation, we needed to be carnivores to develop intelligence. We now use that intelligence to realise that we cannot continue to use fossil fuels if the ecosphere is to survive. Are any of the suggestions a complete solution? No. Does that mean we should not try? No. Nuclear fusion is still 50 years away (old physicist joke), Thorium fission reactors are a brilliant idea but we've tried on/off over the years (with limited resources) but get thwarted by corrosion - maybe metallurgy has advanced that they'll now work. Tidal energy is another possibility that has had little money thrown at it - a loch in Northern Ireland was hosting a trial. They tried it in the Humber which has a fairly fast tide but were defeated by turbidity.

http://www.tidalenergy.eu/tidal_energy_uk.html

Incidentally to demonstrate the "intelligence of mankind", when nuclear power was in its infancy 2 different paths were available for research - Uranium and Thorium both held promise but it was then discovered that a Uranium reactor could also make fuel for bombs... and here we are.

SV650rules

19-12-20, 10:36 AM

Electric boilers...how quaint. A typical house in the UK requires 12kW/h of heat per year. A heat pump efficiency is measured by CoP (Coefficient of Performance) so a pump with a CoP of 3 would produce 3kW of heat for every 1kW of electricity used and a typical house would therefore require 4kW per year. This link:
https://www.viessmann.co.uk/heating-advice/Do-heat-pumps-use-a-lot-of-electricity
shows that it works out cheaper than gas at current(!) prices.

Re-purposing old electric car batteries is not a government fudge:
https://energypost.eu/grid-scale-solar-pv-storage-can-use-re-purposed-old-ev-batteries/
.

Heat pumps are expensive to install, whether air or ground source, the original cost has to be factored back into the running cost. The real problems is that more and more demand being placed on grid, and government would rather spend money on projects like HS2 than ensuring our future power supply by building dependable nuclear power stations. The heat pump would potentially need 35,000 KWh per year ( 4 KW for 24 x365 days ).

The government was not talking about re-purposing BEV batteries, they were talking about cars being charged on peoples driveways having power 'siphoned off' ( fed back into the grid ) during peak times... using old car batteries is a different matter, but a large battery farm would be a potential bomb, due to the fact that lithium is very flammable and toxic ( look at the full gear, including breathing masks that firemen have to wear when dealing with a BEV crash and fire ).

Seeker

19-12-20, 11:57 AM

but a large battery farm would be a potential bomb

hmm...

https://www.energy-storage.news/news/uks-largest-battery-storage-project-at-320mw-gets-go-ahead-from-government

The heat pump would potentially need 35,000 KWh per year ( 4 KW for 24 x365 days )

The article actually said: "Therefore, in order to achieve this, a heat pump with a CoP of three would use 4,000 kW of electricity annually."

From the line above that: "The average home requires around 12,000 kilowatt hours (KwH) of heat per year."

They dropped the /h from kW/h. (as shown by their cost evaluation).

Lithium batteries are susceptible to impact damage because it allows for internal short circuiting - the same problem that was caused by dendrites in early (and cheaper) batteries. Fixes for these problems are already in the pipeline: https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/8/22158573/quantumscape-solid-state-battery-ev-range-charge-vw

None of these are perfect solutions but even I, speaking as a pessimist, think we should at least try. Fossil fuels are a definite no/no, nuclear fission generates waste that we still don't know how to safely store long term, thorium fission would eliminate some existing nuclear waste but we've no experience of building a full scale Thorium reactor (but we are trying), renewables are capable of at least reducing our reliance on fossil fuels. Hydrogen is expensive to make although promising catalysts are emerging. Hydrogen burns with an invisible flame so handling it is extremely difficult - maybe use on trains/ships? Cars would need a fuel cell and Toyota (who don't think electric cars are the answer) plus Mercedes are pursuing this technology.

We set a first last week when the first death attributed (or partially attributed) to air pollution was recorded: https://earther.gizmodo.com/the-worlds-first-death-attributed-to-air-pollution-coul-1845897149

Doing nothing is not an option.

Ruffy

19-12-20, 02:18 PM

Fossil fuels freed humans from a subsistence existence at the mercy of nature, and enables our comfortable modern life, and stopped the chopping down of all our forests for fuel - now we have put ourselves back at the mercy of nature... I suppose that can be called progress....LOL
When did human species become separate from nature, or superior to it? Surely we need to find a harmonious solution for all and learn to live with some of the uncertainties of the world? I think we're still "at the mercy of nature" when it comes to much of our food.

There are those who think that wiping out human species would be the best solution for 'saving the planet', if that's the broader objective. Or is the aim to save the humans but not care about what happens to the planet. We're straying off topic - see you on Mars in the next life!

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/901016/Wind-farms-subsidies-Renewable-Energy-Foundation-National-Grid
Simply sensationalist reporting. This sort of payment has been routine for conventional generation since the inception of the grid. For context, Balancing Services expenditure is c.£1.1bn per year, so £108m is a drop in the ocean. Shame the 'journalist' didn't include that,really. As I said before, generators are only paid not to generate in certain circumstances, not all the time they are off.

The reason many scottish windfarms are susceptible is that, on days of 'good' wind levels, there is insufficient grid capacity to transfer the power to where the demand is (typically SE/London). A new north-south circuit is required to prevent this, but no-one wants that either, they just want the magic of lights on. Scotland has many windfarms because they have the space. Perhaps Battersea should have been re-commissioned as a power station instead of building expensive flats and shops?
I sugest you read some of the industry publications rather than the tabloid press. Perhaps start with the Electricity Ten Year Statement https://www.nationalgrideso.com/research-publications/etys-2020 (https://www.nationalgrideso.com/research-publications/etys-2020http://)

There has been very little solar power in the last month or two, it has been down below 1% for long periods. Who would have thought using solar power in UK ( with barely 7 hours of daylight ) when you need power the most was a good idea, especially with banning of gas boilers that may have to be replaced with 20 to 30Kw electric boilers ( that is 80 to 120 amps, or more than the total power most homes now get ) add in another 10KW to charge an electric car and each house will need an enormous amount of power and streets will need new cables. I suppose that very expensive ground source heat pumps will be suggested next... Electric cars expensive ( even when subsidised by taxpayers who can never afford one) are way out of the reach of 90% of the population, even if you can afford one you need a place to charge it.
Electric boilers...how quaint. A typical house in the UK requires 12kW/h of heat per year. A heat pump efficiency is measured by CoP (Coefficient of Performance) so a pump with a CoP of 3 would produce 3kW of heat for every 1kW of electricity used and a typical house would therefore require 4kW per year. This link:
https://www.viessmann.co.uk/heating-advice/Do-heat-pumps-use-a-lot-of-electricity
shows that it works out cheaper than gas at current(!) prices.
Heat pumps are expensive to install, whether air or ground source, the original cost has to be factored back into the running cost. The real problems is that more and more demand being placed on grid, and government would rather spend money on projects like HS2 than ensuring our future power supply by building dependable nuclear power stations. The heat pump would potentially need 35,000 KWh per year ( 4 KW for 24 x365 days ).
Do we need to worry about efficiency and new tech? A rooftop solar panel can provide hot water to fulfill many domestic heating and hot water needs that would result in big reduction in gas and electric use from the grid. Panel doesn't even need to be PV, non-electric solutions are perfectly feasible. A hot water storage tank is still commonplace. But we maybe straying off topic again.

Using electric vehicle batteries as grid backup is a typical fudge you expect from governments who don't think things through. It is a bit like agreeing for them to siphon fuel out of your tank and hope it gets put back in time for when you need to use the car...... There is also the problem that it would use up the charge and discharge cycle life on the battery, shortening its life.
Re-purposing old electric car batteries is not a government fudge:
https://energypost.eu/grid-scale-solar-pv-storage-can-use-re-purposed-old-ev-batteries/The government was not talking about re-purposing BEV batteries, they were talking about cars being charged on peoples driveways having power 'siphoned off' ( fed back into the grid ) during peak times... using old car batteries is a different matter, but a large battery farm would be a potential bomb, due to the fact that lithium is very flammable and toxic ( look at the full gear, including breathing masks that firemen have to wear when dealing with a BEV crash and fire ).
Either way, using battery stores, either permanent or temporary from EVs is worth exploring IMHO. For EVs, do you really need a full charge at the start of every journey? (I'm not suggesting it's a perfect answer - yes, there are downsides - but it could be part of a sensible engineering solution. It's just one aspect within the concept of demand side balancing. )

Doing nothing is not an option.
Agreed (by me a least). Electric vehicles are part of the solution that are worth pursuing for some applications, but I certainly dont think they're a utopian fix-all.

SV650rules

20-12-20, 09:01 AM

Looking at solar power contribution to grid in last few months, you would not be wise to rely on it for your hot water, so once again you need a backup source of energy. Like most renewables when you need it most it is not there. Air source heat pumps efficiency drops with ambient temperature, and at 5 deg C ambient the output is about 1.5x the input..and at a low temperature too low to heat water - . so once again when you need heat the most you get the least, and with gas per kilowatt about 20% of electrical power cost at lower temps air source becomes a lot more expensive per KW output.

Renewables should be looked at as fuel savers in the good times, but for the bad times out need a plan B - which is a reliable system of generation for your base load.

DJ123

20-12-20, 09:44 AM

With renewables you need to be able to store the energy when i isn't being used. that's the big draw back with energy you don't have an on/.off switch for when the demand is not there.

SV650rules

20-12-20, 10:02 AM

I can see smart meters combined with smart distribution boxes to enable 'load shedding' within a house or building, for example turn off the water immersion heater at peak times. Also smart meters ideal for tariff changes throughout the day ( but no longer cheap at night because solar not working ). You can bet that the pricing will always be above base tariff once the companies get a lot of smart meters out there ( no need to scare the consumer off by doing it too early, although I feel a lot of consumers already suspect what plans are afoot and are wary of smart meters, also like most things smart meter rollout was badly thought through as with early models you were stuck with your supplier if you wanted your smart meter to not go dumb on you ). The big lie with smart meters is that they save you money, when they only indicate what you are using, quite a few people already know that a kettle uses 3kw though, unless it is an EU one, and that you need the same energy to boil a certain amount of water with a 3kw or 1.5kw kettle, it just takes longer with lower wattage ), with the lower wattage EU kettles they were trying to limit peak of demand but spread it out to relieve pressure on grid.

SV650rules

01-01-21, 05:59 PM

Renewables been pretty much absent from grid again since 27 December last year. All the other stuff flat out, including overseas cables bringing nuclear from France...

see http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

there is real time and historical data available.

SV650rules

01-01-21, 10:23 PM

Large battery fire in Arizona 2019, Lithium fires are very nasty with really toxic fumes, even a car battery fire is a real problem for firefighters, with full respirator gear needed, and at 400 volts on car batteries ( a lot more on grid storage ) there is a real danger of electrocution.

https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/2020/07/ul-recommendations-now-in-after-2019-lithium-battery-fire-in-arizona/

DJ123

04-01-21, 12:59 PM

SV650rules

04-01-21, 01:33 PM

With the amount of mining needed to procure all the ingredients to create a Battery, you're on a level playing field with the CO2 output. Currently the EV equivalent produces 10 tons more just to create it - so it needs to have a longer life to offset the initial debt before it is even Carbon neutral, let alone Carbon Negative.

I agree, but the greenies want you to ignore the messy details and focus on the 'zero emissions' from the car on the road ( without worrying about all the emissions needed to build the car and the fans on sticks and solar panels made of toxic substances ). The greenies don't like us using energy, have a goal to make energy expensive so that we cannot afford to use much, given their way the greenies would have us all back in the stone age. Electric vehicles with their rare earth elements make us more reliant on places like China, which cannot be good given Chinese record on democracy and human rights.

Dave20046

08-01-21, 06:11 PM

SV650rules

08-01-21, 06:20 PM

I noticed there was warnings of disruption to grid supply this evening (London/South England). No idea of the cause or circumstances , obviously I don't think it's due to e-vehicles but I am wondering how/why it came about and if it undermines their previous announcements about being ready for e-vehicles and having enough to go round.

If you think we are ready for EV look at this site, and look at historical data. The fans on sticks have been contributing nothing of substance to the grid ( about 5 or 6% ) - solar nothing, even the few remaining coal fired stations been contributing more than wind and solar combined - the output of renewables is highly variable and during the coldest spell we have had for a while, with high demand for electricity have provided very little, even the cables from France and Belgium have been flat out.

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

DJ123

08-01-21, 08:26 PM

svenrico

08-01-21, 11:45 PM

Seeker

09-01-21, 08:42 AM

The National Grid warnings are issued because the electricity reserve margins are too low and it's basically a request for more power to be input to the grid (usually by starting up more gas turbines), it doesn't mean there will be a blackout unless the turbines didn't come on line.
The grid is a bit unbalanced at the moment because new wind farms are coming on line faster than the grid can support them. New interconnectors are needed to transfer power from the north of the UK to the south and a new interconnector has just been approved to connect Shetland to Scotland (and thus the grid).

Like them or loathe them, wind turbines are here to stay as are solar farms but they're not a complete solution unless mass storage is feasible. Here's an article on small nuclear reactors which might make more sense than the expensive French/Chinese debacle currently being built at Hinkley Point:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a34976294/tiny-nuclear-reactors/

SV650rules

09-01-21, 08:59 AM

The National Grid warnings are issued because the electricity reserve margins are too low and it's basically a request for more power to be input to the grid (usually by starting up more gas turbines), it doesn't mean there will be a blackout unless the turbines didn't come on line.
The grid is a bit unbalanced at the moment because new wind farms are coming on line faster than the grid can support them. New interconnectors are needed to transfer power from the north of the UK to the south and a new interconnector has just been approved to connect Shetland to Scotland (and thus the grid).

Wind has been non-existant during weeks of cold weather during last months, grid storage normally means hours not days or weeks, try storing enough to supply 45GW for up to 7 days...

Funny how solar has been absent from grid many times during our coldest times, Oh its Winter in UK, short days and cloudy - seems we will get power from solar when we need it least ( unless it is to keep air conditioning running in our very hot summers ). Oh and windfarms get paid more for not generating ----- WTF

https://www.power-technology.com/features/constraint-payments-rewarding-wind-farms-for-switching-off/

Seeker

09-01-21, 10:13 AM

Wind has been non-existant during weeks of cold weather during last months, grid storage normally means hours not days or weeks, try storing enough to supply 45GW for up to 7 days...

Funny how solar has been absent from grid many times during our coldest times, Oh its Winter in UK, short days and cloudy - seems we will get power from solar when we need it least ( unless it is to keep air conditioning running in our very hot summers ). Oh and windfarms get paid more for not generating ----- WTF

https://www.power-technology.com/features/constraint-payments-rewarding-wind-farms-for-switching-off/

yes, we accept you're a fossil fuel fan but it's simply not sustainable. Are the Tories doing a good job, do they have a sensible energy policy? Absolutely not.

Is switching to low carbon power going to be a flawless, inexpensive transition? No. Should we stop because better things may come along? No.

You criticise wind power and sometimes with valid points but you don't mention things like this:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/dec/22/uk-hits-clean-energy-milestone-50-of-electricity-from-low-carbon-sources

Yes, the article has flaws, I for one cannot believe that burning wood chips from North America qualifies as carbon neutral no matter how much Drax tries to spin it. We are limping in the right direction though, imho

SV650rules

09-01-21, 11:34 AM

Not so much a fan of fossil fuels ( although they have made possible the massive progress we have made in just about everything ) they did free us from subsistence existence grubbing around for food at the whim of nature.

I am a fan of not shutting down our reliable energy sources until we have something equally reliable to replace them though.. UK contributes less than 2% of global CO2 but our electricity is amongst the most expensive in the world due to having to have pretty much 100% backup of unreliable renewables .

Wow we hit 50% of our needs from low carbon sources ( they include nuclear in that - which greenies hate ) during the time we need it least ( summer ) - I am more worried about the fact a few years ago the country issued a gas shortage warning, and may well have to issue one this year due to burning gas to generate electricity because the fans on sticks bunk off. How embarrassing that a few winters ago the Russians sent us a tanker ship full of gas....

Seeker

09-01-21, 12:30 PM

We have always had expensive energy in this country, long before coal was eliminated. Here's the minutes of the government debate on raising prices by 29% on gas and 23% on electric in 1980 and they must rise by 10% over inflation for gas and 5% for electric for the following 3 years.
https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1980/jan/30/gas-and-electricity-price-increases

Whilst our energy companies are owned by foreign countries I don't see much changing. Should energy companies make a proft or should it run as a service by the government? We've tried it both ways and each way has been expensive but I'd prefer the money to stay in the UK.

If all countries adopt the attitude that: "we don't emit much CO2, so why should we bother", I don't see much change forthcoming. You could argue that since we started the industrial revolution we have a greater responsibility to start fixing it or at least set a good example.

The writing is on the wall for using gas, you'll be pleased to hear, and I think we'll see increasing pressure to stop using it. In California, they have just announced no new houses will be built that use gas appliances, although that may not survive legal challenges. Besides we get gas from Norway and Russia and the latter is a risk.

My American friends used to say to me: "ok, you've given all the reasons why you can't do it, now let's look at how you can do it". If we'd listened to the Luddites, we would not have had the industrial revolution.

Progress does not come through stasis, returning to the subject of electric vehicles - when I was a lad, the only electric vehicles you saw were milk floats and you could overtake them on a bicycle. I don't think you'd argue that a Tesla isn't far superior in every way (except its milk carrying ability maybe :) ). If we had continued to use coal there would not have been any pressure to change.

svenrico

09-01-21, 01:37 PM

'The writing is on the wall for using gas, you'll be pleased to hear, and I think we'll see increasing pressure to stop using it. In California, they have just announced no new houses will be built that use gas appliances, although that may not survive legal challenges. Besides we get gas from Norway and Russia and the latter is a risk.'
Not pleased to hear that - my gas fired boiler won't work then ! Thought we were being encouraged to upgrade our gas boilers to more efficient modern ones anyway !
ps How big will our gardens need to be to install the piping for ground source heat pumps I wonder.

Luckypants

09-01-21, 02:33 PM

'
Not pleased to hear that - my gas fired boiler won't work then ! Thought we were being encouraged to upgrade our gas boilers to more efficient modern ones anyway !
ps How big will our gardens need to be to install the piping for ground source heat pumps I wonder.

Not big at all, as they drop the pipes down a bore hole No new homes will be built with gas boilers after 2025. TBH when I built the extension. I should have gone ground source as the costs would have only been slightly more than my fire proof oil tank and new boiler. I just want aware of the technology 5 years ago :(

Dave20046

10-01-21, 09:03 PM

Not big at all, as they drop the pipes down a bore hole No new homes will be built with gas boilers after 2025. TBH when I built the extension. I should have gone ground source as the costs would have only been slightly more than my fire proof oil tank and new boiler. I just want aware of the technology 5 years ago :(

I wasn't aware either, alas. I've just bought a boiler and expected some sort of 'future proof' electric input feature ( I naively expected that to have been invented by now/be the direction of travel)to be an option but gave up the hunt - I did find some electric boilers which looked less green than gas at this point in time. I went to the green deal thinking they'll be peddling the best option - only option was biofuel, which looked like effectively stoking a fire all winter long (ok they automate it). I just went for stable old combi boiler for apparent lack of options, not pleased to read the above deadline :pale: (from a selfish point of view...not seriously) as I possibly cocked up there, not that they guarantee a boiler for much more than 8 years.

Grant66

10-01-21, 10:04 PM

Had look into ground source hearing when we were planning the extension.

The cost is a little prohibiting, the estimated saving of £70 a year would take over 200 years before breaking even. Which is a bit disappointing.

There is a sweetener offered by the government which could knock 50 years off that figure, it's unlikely I'd live to see the benefit.

Sent from an S20 using Tapatalk with that kin cr4p blocked

svenrico

11-01-21, 12:43 AM

Had look into ground source hearing when we were planning the extension.
The cost is a little prohibiting, the estimated saving of £70 a year would take over 200 years before breaking even. Which is a bit disappointing.
There is a sweetener offered by the government which could knock 50 years off that figure, it's unlikely I'd live to see the benefit.

That seems to be the problem.

svenrico

11-01-21, 12:47 AM

svenrico

11-01-21, 12:50 AM

'not that they guarantee a boiler for much more than 8 years.'
My gas boiler has lasted 23 years so far (touch wood !)

Seeker

11-01-21, 08:41 AM

My gas boiler has lasted 23 years so far (touch wood !)

which says a lot for its durability, unfortunately it's only about 65-70% efficient compared to 93-95% for a modern boiler.

timwilky

11-01-21, 10:39 AM

My new gas boiler goes in on Thursday, the current on has lasted 18 years. It still works but has deveoped a leak, BG fixed it and 2 days later it started leaking again, So time to go.

svenrico

11-01-21, 06:26 PM

which says a lot for its durability, unfortunately it's only about 65-70% efficient compared to 93-95% for a modern boiler.
Think this has been mentioned on here before, but the improvement in efficiency and lower fuel costs can take years to recoup the cost of a new boiler. Plus their complexity means they are less reliable and more likely to need repair ,I think was also mentioned, but I don't claim to be an expert on heating boilers.
ps was meaning to look into the grants available in our area for energy efficient home improvements. Already have cavity wall insulation and adequate loft insulation, although I was contacted about retro installation of insulation in partywall cavity as that acts like a flue for heat escaping at the top of the cavity. Would like that doing.

SV650rules

11-01-21, 06:43 PM

Think this has been mentioned on here before, but the improvement in efficiency and lower fuel costs can take years to recoup the cost of a new boiler. Plus their complexity means they are less reliable and more likely to need repair ,I think was also mentioned, but I don't claim to be an expert on heating boilers.
ps was meaning to look into the grants available in our area for energy efficient home improvements. Already have cavity wall insulation and adequate loft insulation, although I was contacted about retro installation of insulation in partywall cavity as that acts like a flue for heat escaping at the top of the cavity. Would like that doing.

A few people in our cul-de-sac had cavity wall insulation - fitted by those cowboys going round doing the 'government backed scheme' they never did a survey of the cavity ( they are supposed to do a boroscope inspection ) otherwise they would have found, as I already knew that when our houses were built in 1997 the cavity was partially filled with expanded polystyrene sheets during the build. How they managed to blow those silly beads in as well I'll never know. The neighbours who had the insulation installed have reported no change in their heating bills. One bloke I used to work with had retro-fit cavity insulation and a few months later their walls were going black and their windows streaming with water, I advised him to get a dehumidifier which he now has to run 24/7 to keep the place as dry as it used to be before the cavities were blocked up..... any saving in heating probably gobbled up by dehumidifier running costs..

The £20K plus needed for ground source heat pump + another £5K for horizontal pipe loop or near £10K for vertical pipe loop ( if your ground is suitable for ground source, not all areas are ) has a massive payback period.

Problem with 300mm+ of insulation in loft is that you can no longer keep anything up in the loft, and not even walk across it safely because you can't see where the rafters are, I just filled between the rafters and boarded the loft over - after all whats the use of having a loft if you can't stored stuff up there ? If the roof ever leaks the insulation will soak up the water and get that heavy the ceiling will fall down.

SV650rules

12-01-21, 09:32 AM

The amount of gas storage ( storage not supply ) that we have in UK has been vastly reduced in the last 3 to 4 years, we are now virtually working on 'just in time' supply of mainly from Norway and up to 20% of gas from liquified gas tanker ships from around the planet. This comes at a time when gas is being used in huge quantities to bail out renewables unreliability. We didn't get rid of sailing boats until we had fully functioning reliable steam ships, and got rid of steam when other forms of propulsion became reliable. We didn't ditch propeller aircraft until we had reliable jet engines. We have however pretty much ditched fossil fuels well before we have any reliable alternatives.

Here is an well known environmental activist who has grave doubts about rollout of renewables - exactly the same doubts that I have had for years now. Even that bastion of greenies California uses a lot of fossil fuels when the sun goes down to keep the lights on. Renewables can best be described as fuel savers when they deign to contribute to the grid, they are not the answer - and unless we extract our digits and get some decent reliable base load generation we are in for many problems.

https://www.americanexperiment.org/2019/03/renewables-cant-save-planet/

https://climatechangedispatch.com/top-glaciologists-alps-were-ice-free-6000-years-ago-when-co2-was-lower/

.

Seeker

12-01-21, 10:55 AM

The amount of gas storage ( storage not supply ) that we have in UK has been vastly reduced in the last 3 to 4 years, we are now virtually working on 'just in time' supply of mainly from Norway

...which made sense when we were part of the EU. The Belgium and Norwegian interconnectors (there are 3 to Norway) link us to the European gas network. Does it make sense now? Depends on how much of a Brexiteer you are - the EU has said that when the next fisheries negotiations take place in 5 years, they may use the gas supply as a lever. Although that should not affect the Norwegian supply.

California - I used to live a few miles from the San Onofre nuclear power plant - it went off line to be upgraded and, unfortunately, when powered back up the heat exchangers proved to be unsatisfactory so the plant was shut down again and the decision made to leave it closed.

The Diablo Canyon nuclear power plant sits directly over a major earthquake fault (as does nearly everything in CA) and PG&E (Pacific Gas and Electric) are planning to decommission the plant shortly.

California's power problems are partly political - in the 90s it was cheaper to buy electricity from neighboring states and then the Enron scandal hit. California was desparately short of power and the neighboring states screwed CA by jacking the prices - gotta love capitalism. The problem in CA is still NIMBYism.

UK: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jan/07/renewables-beat-fossil-fuels-greenest-year-uk-energy

Does the UK have a coherent long term plan, does it in fact have any plan? I hope so.

This is the main problem: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tory-members-climate-change-human-man-made-survey-boris-johnson-a9373221.html

If the majority of Tory members don't believe in man made climate change and the MPs represent their constituents (ha ha) then where's the impetus for change?

We are building, or rather the French and Chinese are building a new nuclear power plant in Somerset and talking about building one in Suffolk. Whether these are good value or will ever be completed is moot.

Finally, I live in a rural county which, you'd think, would have good air quality. No. The Trent valley and Drax coal power stations lower my air quality - so goodbye to coal asap. You can put a wind turbine in my garden. :smile:

DJ123

12-01-21, 01:14 PM

UK: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jan/07/renewables-beat-fossil-fuels-greenest-year-uk-energy

Does the UK have a coherent long term plan, does it in fact have any plan? I hope so.

This is the main problem: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tory-members-climate-change-human-man-made-survey-boris-johnson-a9373221.html

If the majority of Tory members don't believe in man made climate change and the MPs represent their constituents (ha ha) then where's the impetus for change?

We are building, or rather the French and Chinese are building a new nuclear power plant in Somerset and talking about building one in Suffolk. Whether these are good value or will ever be completed is moot.

Finally, I live in a rural county which, you'd think, would have good air quality. No. The Trent valley and Drax coal power stations lower my air quality - so goodbye to coal asap. You can put a wind turbine in my garden. :smile:

I'm hoping the National Grid have a plan that only needs someone in Parliament to sign off on the bill. This lot couldn't organise a pi$$ up in a brewery - because they've all gone bust now.
What else can they spend all that money on we were paying to the EU?

Chris_SVS

12-01-21, 01:35 PM

Drax has been burning biomass for a number of years and is phasing out coal within months if not already.. They're also planning to run two CCGTs

ethariel

12-01-21, 01:47 PM

Regardless of how much solar/wind is built and comes on line, without energy storage in place we still need fueled generation - Gas, Nuclear, Biomass, Coal, without it we are back to rubbing sticks together to make fire.

Renewables are a nice topup in the grid when it's sunny/windy, it may even at some points make up 30 ro even 40% of the total generation but that rarely lasts an hour before a cloud comes along or the wiind dies down (or it gets too windy).

Without the capability of being able to press buttons to generate electricity we are stuffed, full stop.

Renewables as they stand without storage are a joke, I hate to think of the cost/mass of an energy storage medium capable of storing enough energy and able to release it in a controlled fashion to replace fossil fuels, if it ever went bang, hell that would make a nuke look like a raindroip.

The answer lies in science fiction - Cold Fusion, Space Based solar arrays, alient power sources - without them, it's back to burniing something we can store to make the energy we need.

Look at the hunt for lithium to make batteries for cars, imagine having to compete with car manufacturers for batteries for electrical storage as a Grid backup, you thought Nuclear was expensive? lol

Chris_SVS

12-01-21, 01:54 PM

My employers have a massive battery storage array... An Electrical Engineer I would call a good friend worked a lot on the project.

It's mahoosive for the 10mw it provides*

*Their remaining coal fired units are contracted until 2023/4 respectively but there's tenders in the works to replant with gas

svenrico

12-01-21, 02:18 PM

A few people in our cul-de-sac had cavity wall insulation - fitted by those cowboys going round doing the 'government backed scheme' they never did a survey of the cavity ( they are supposed to do a boroscope inspection ) otherwise they would have found, as I already knew that when our houses were built in 1997 the cavity was partially filled with expanded polystyrene sheets during the build. How they managed to blow those silly beads in as well I'll never know. The neighbours who had the insulation installed have reported no change in their heating bills. One bloke I used to work with had retro-fit cavity insulation and a few months later their walls were going black and their windows streaming with water, I advised him to get a dehumidifier which he now has to run 24/7 to keep the place as dry as it used to be before the cavities were blocked up..... any saving in heating probably gobbled up by dehumidifier running costs..

The £20K plus needed for ground source heat pump + another £5K for horizontal pipe loop or near £10K for vertical pipe loop ( if your ground is suitable for ground source, not all areas are ) has a massive payback period.

Problem with 300mm+ of insulation in loft is that you can no longer keep anything up in the loft, and not even walk across it safely because you can't see where the rafters are, I just filled between the rafters and boarded the loft over - after all whats the use of having a loft if you can't stored stuff up there ? If the roof ever leaks the insulation will soak up the water and get that heavy the ceiling will fall down.

They obviously were cowboys if they didn't inspect the wall cavities to see if they were suitable for retro fill insulation , partial fill cavity walls aren't intended to be fully filled and a minimum cavity width is required anyway for full fill insulation. 300mm or maybe 350mm is the optimum thickness for loft insulation (between and over the ceiling joists ) Ordinary roof trusses aren't designed for loft storage . ps you will still be able to see the rafters and the joists are in line with the rafters !

Seeker

12-01-21, 02:31 PM

Drax has been burning biomass for a number of years and is phasing out coal within months if not already.. They're also planning to run two CCGTs

Drax is supposed to stop burning coal in March of this year. They burn wood chips sourced from the US, Sth America and Europe which are shipped to Immingham (on the Humber) then transported by train to Drax. The only benefit I've seen is that Cleethorpes beach is no longer covered in coal dust from the unloading spillage at Immingham.

They claim this is low carbon, renewable electricity which is a statement I have difficulty in believing. Drax gets subsidised for burning wood - a lot (£700+ million)

Naturally, there is a campaign (AxeDrax) to stop this:

https://www.biofuelwatch.org.uk/axedrax-campaign/

Chris_SVS

12-01-21, 03:04 PM

Close Drax right now - where does the lost MW come from until they replant?

Not like it's a new scheme https://www.gov.uk/domestic-renewable-heat-incentive

(https://www.gov.uk/domestic-renewable-heat-incentive)The replant is a massive step forward in cleaner burning and efficiency, you get two generators(if not more) for one gas input. All you're really doing is recirculating exhaust heat to boil water for a steam turbine. To the point where you can have the turbine spinning offload pretty much all of the time and available within a few buttons press to generate, step up and grid. A bit like your central heating at home, it's more efficient left on and warm than being allowed to cool and reheat. A large part of the reasoning why older plant like Drax is being phased out, if it's not running and warm it takes hours to bring online and efficiency is lost in doing so.

(https://www.gov.uk/domestic-renewable-heat-incentive)**Sidenote - I routinely walk past our 275KV station, you can literally feel death in the air even though it's tucked away and controlled
(https://www.gov.uk/domestic-renewable-heat-incentive)

Ruffy

13-01-21, 12:05 AM

**Sidenote - I routinely walk past our 275KV station, you can literally feel death in the air even though it's tucked away and controlled
:) As a former Grid engineer, this made me chuckle. I recognise what I think you're describing but I've never heard it described as "death in the air". To (mis)quote the character from the Fast Show: 'Electromagnetic induction - in't it brilliant!'

It's all safe while it stays in the air. It's when it leaks out you really need to start worrying :smt082

Chris_SVS

13-01-21, 05:12 AM

Hopefully it stays in and is alert etc ��

SV650rules

13-01-21, 10:43 AM

They obviously were cowboys if they didn't inspect the wall cavities to see if they were suitable for retro fill insulation , partial fill cavity walls aren't intended to be fully filled and a minimum cavity width is required anyway for full fill insulation. 300mm or maybe 350mm is the optimum thickness for loft insulation (between and over the ceiling joists ) Ordinary roof trusses aren't designed for loft storage . ps you will still be able to see the rafters and the joists are in line with the rafters !

I knew our cavities were already mostly filled with expanded polystyrene boards and I told the cowboy who came knocking on our door that all the houses on the estate had been built like that, didn't stop him knocking on all the other doors though - and I bet 99% of the people didn't know about the existing insulation :rolleyes:

Actually the bloke came back when my wife was there ( and I wasn't ) he actually told my wife that the following year ( 2018 ) it would be 'illegal' to sell a house that didn't have cavity insulation. I was that ****ed off I wrote to MP and council about their 'cowboys' and their hard sell tactics.

Most government schemes mean well but are let down by the last step in the chain, the cowboy contractors who actually mess everything up..

svenrico

13-01-21, 05:17 PM

I knew our cavities were already mostly filled with expanded polystyrene boards and I told the cowboy who came knocking on our door that all the houses on the estate had been built like that, didn't stop him knocking on all the other doors though - and I bet 99% of the people didn't know about the existing insulation :rolleyes:

Actually the bloke came back when my wife was there ( and I wasn't ) he actually told my wife that the following year ( 2018 ) it would be 'illegal' to sell a house that didn't have cavity insulation. I was that ****ed off I wrote to MP and council about their 'cowboys' and their hard sell tactics.

Most government schemes mean well but are let down by the last step in the chain, the cowboy contractors who actually mess everything up..
Aren't these schemes supposed to use 'approved' contractors though ?!

SV650rules

13-01-21, 06:23 PM

Aren't these schemes supposed to use 'approved' contractors though ?!

Local councils were responsible for giving contracts for the cavity insulation and probably use the same contractors they use for other things - Pikeys, the reason Pikeys can get onto all the schools and playing fields etc with their caravans is because the council has given them keys to carry out work - my Brother in law used to work for local council highways department and he told me.

A lot of the fly tipped rubbish cluttering the place up has been tracked back to local councils who gave it to unregistered 'contractors' to 'process' it -

Dave20046

14-01-21, 11:07 AM

Aren't these schemes supposed to use 'approved' contractors though ?!

Typical gov approval criteria I think, fondle a pig with the PM or split the profits. Look at the green deal farce. There are 2 approved contractors in yorkshire, one is called 'green deal developments' and started trading two weeks after the scheme went live and other has a terrible rep. Needless to say no one is accessing it.

ethariel

14-01-21, 12:42 PM

I remember back in the 80's (when i was young) they came round to blast those ply beads into all the cavity walls in town, 2 days later there was a veritable tide of shifting drifting poly balls everywhere, literally knee deep in places.

No one had explained to them that you have to pump in what's essentially a glue with them or they literally just fall out of the air bricks.

And yes it was a company that had existed for only a few weeks all set up on the back of a HIDB grant, bloody cowboys.

svenrico

14-01-21, 05:04 PM

Typical gov approval criteria I think, fondle a pig with the PM or split the profits. Look at the green deal farce. There are 2 approved contractors in yorkshire, one is called 'green deal developments' and started trading two weeks after the scheme went live and other has a terrible rep. Needless to say no one is accessing it.
If there are only 2 companies in Yorkshire doing this work does that mean J & J Crump ,the company who did my cavity wall insulation , falls into the latter category ?!
ps they did use an adhesive sprayed in together with the plastic beads to keep them in place.
pps Potential settling and leaving gaps or falling out of holes was an accepted problem with loose fill mineral wool cavity wall insulation.
pps I do have a concern with cavity wall insulation stopping at first floor ceiling level in cold roof situations. The gable wall to the roof space doesn't need to be filled for thermal insulation purposes, but if they don't take the cavity insulation up to roof level it leaves a bridge across the cavity for moisture to cross to the inner leaf ! In that situation a cavity tray and weep vents is really required.
oops ,sorry, wrong forum.

Dave20046

14-01-21, 07:51 PM

If there are only 2 companies in Yorkshire doing this work does that mean J & J Crump ,the company who did my cavity wall insulation , falls into the latter category ?!
ps they did use an adhesive sprayed in together with the plastic beads to keep them in place.
pps Potential settling and leaving gaps or falling out of holes was an accepted problem with loose fill mineral wool cavity wall insulation.
pps I do have a concern with cavity wall insulation stopping at first floor ceiling level in cold roof situations. The gable wall to the roof space doesn't need to be filled for thermal insulation purposes, but if they don't take the cavity insulation up to roof level it leaves a bridge across the cavity for moisture to cross to the inner leaf ! In that situation a cavity tray and weep vents is really required.
oops ,sorry, wrong forum.
Yeah, I think it was them who I didn't want to use them based on the reviews https://www.yell.com/biz/j-and-j-crump-and-son-ltd-newton-abbot-7145903/

I've just had a quick look and can't find the map I saw in September. There might be more now.

Nevermind wrong forum, I'm very interested in that! I'm just doing a gable ended loft conversion with a cold roof, was planning on doing insulated render

svenrico

16-01-21, 12:44 AM

Yeah, I think it was them who I didn't want to use them based on the reviews https://www.yell.com/biz/j-and-j-crump-and-son-ltd-newton-abbot-7145903/

I've just had a quick look and can't find the map I saw in September. There might be more now.

Nevermind wrong forum, I'm very interested in that! I'm just doing a gable ended loft conversion with a cold roof, was planning on doing insulated render
External insulation (insulated render) is a different situation. The clear wall cavity will continue up to the verge- there won't be any insulation to bridge the cavity. However, your new loft conversion can't have a cold roof ! It will need to be a warm roof insulated on the roof slope, which has its own special requirements .Correct construction details are important.

Dave20046

16-01-21, 10:16 AM

External insulation (insulated render) is a different situation. The clear wall cavity will continue up to the verge- there won't be any insulation to bridge the cavity. However, your new loft conversion can't have a cold roof ! It will need to be a warm roof insulated on the roof slope, which has its own special requirements .Correct construction details are important.

Architect specc'd it with a cold roof, me and the roofer have raised eyebrows. Thanks for that, will address today!

svenrico

16-01-21, 05:36 PM

Architect specc'd it with a cold roof, me and the roofer have raised eyebrows. Thanks for that, will address today!
The existing might be a cold roof (with level insulation at first floor ceiling /loft floor level) but roof space has to be warm if changing it to a habitable space by a loft conversion.
Shouldn't really comment without knowing the full/specific details but the architect should provide drawings/construction specification showing the proposed construction details for building regulations approval.
I would ask the architect to clarify the proposed roof and external wall construction details.
ps the architect in this case is probably referring to it being a cold pitched roof where the insulation is between and under the rafters as opposed to a warm pitched roof where the insulation is between and over the rafters.
Whichever it is the sloping ceilings in a loft conversion obviously have to be insulated.

SV650rules

15-04-21, 03:55 PM

Looking at gridwatch UK website - the wind turbines have contributed hardly anything to grid since last Friday, round about 2%. Where is all the carbon zero energy gonna come from to power the expensive leccy vehicles - what a way to run a country !

redtrummy

15-04-21, 09:01 PM

What about the solar farms SV? Its been cold but great big sunny blue skies! But yes, it is a little precarious relying on the elements. I wonder if the Fusion vision will ever become a reality.

SV650rules

15-04-21, 09:27 PM

What about the solar farms SV? Its been cold but great big sunny blue skies! But yes, it is a little precarious relying on the elements. I wonder if the Fusion vision will ever become a reality.

Solar gives power for a few hours a day

SV650rules

23-04-21, 10:26 AM

Luckypants

23-04-21, 10:35 AM

SV650rules

23-04-21, 10:40 AM

Yes true, I see the issue with renewables as having a tracker electricity tariff I follow the supply and prices. Prices are high due to supply squeeze brought on by the lack of wind this month. But the source of the electricity is actually not relevant to running an electric vehicle....

That is like saying that drilling for oil is of no relevance to providing Diesel and petrol ( and medicines and road building materials, paints and lubricants etc. etc. etc. etc. ) - to make electric cars fulfill their promise to save the planet the electricity they use has to be carbon free - the problem is with subsidies is that the windfarm owners make money whether or not the wind blows, so with no wind and their turbines not wearing out they are still quids in, and guess who is paying ?

Seeker

23-04-21, 10:41 AM

Nothing more than 5% of grid requirements from wind turbines since Friday 10th April, Solar has improved and reaches above 20% for about 8 hours a day. but without a cloud in the sky from dawn to dusk that is to be expected. Still almost totally reliant on gas and nuclear for most of our electricity supply - bring on the all electric houses and all electric cars.....

With a high pressure stuck over the top of us it's unsurprising that the turbines are idle, it's also relatively rare to have one stationary for so long. I note that you never mention the electricity generated when it's windy, a far more common occurrence in the UK. Storm Bella allowed the turbines to generate record amounts of electricity.
Turbines aren't supposed to totally replace other forms of energy generation they supplement it and reduce the amount of fossil fuel being burned. Yes, we still need gas and nuclear although gas will need to go eventually. It's not an ideal situation but the alternative is to watch the world burn whilst saying: "pity we couldn't fix it".
The question we should be asking is: "Have we left it too late?" We should have been doing this 25 years ago when we were told it was too expensive.

SV650rules

23-04-21, 10:50 AM

With a high pressure stuck over the top of us it's unsurprising that the turbines are idle, it's also relatively rare to have one stationary for so long. I note that you never mention the electricity generated when it's windy, a far more common occurrence in the UK. Storm Bella allowed the turbines to generate record amounts of electricity.
Turbines aren't supposed to totally replace other forms of energy generation they supplement it and reduce the amount of fossil fuel being burned. Yes, we still need gas and nuclear although gas will need to go eventually. It's not an ideal situation but the alternative is to watch the world burn whilst saying: "pity we couldn't fix it".
The question we should be asking is: "Have we left it too late?" We should have been doing this 25 years ago when we were told it was too expensive.

Trouble is that we need 100% backup of renewables for times like this, and those backup systems cost money to keep in working order and ready to produce power - the renewables are no more than 'fuel savers' when they do produce - but are unreliable, their output is totally at the whim of nature. They sometimes do produce over 40% of our needs, but the next day they can be back to 5% - the last high we had was cloudy and windless - so nothing from solar or wind for over a week. Can we really run an all electric zero carbon country relying on fans on sticks ? Solar in UK winter is not a good prospect ( when we will need all the power we can get ), max 4 hours a day of decent production even on a cloudless day. The way politicians are dragging their feet over nuclear we will be decommissioning older stations before we get new ones running, and at the moment nuclear can only provide up to 8GW, which is about 20% of what we need at the moment, and we are not into the politicians 'all electric' pipe dream yet.

svenrico

23-04-21, 12:11 PM

the problem is with subsidies is that the windfarm owners make money whether or not the wind blows, so with no wind and their turbines not wearing out they are still quids in, and guess who is paying ?

That is a good point regarding lots of subsidies. Take solar panels for instance, are people who can't afford to install them in the first place subsidising those who can ?!

SV650rules

23-04-21, 12:25 PM

That is a good point regarding lots of subsidies. Take solar panels for instance, are people who can't afford to install them in the first place subsidising those who can ?!

Yup - and people who cannot afford to buy a mega-expensive BEV are seeing their taxes used to subsidies people who can afford them - somebody left the keys to the asylum in one of the inmates cells.

Seeker

23-04-21, 01:00 PM

Fossil fuels subsidies were £10.5 billion in 2019 in the UK, whilst renewables were £8.3 billion. The insanity is in fiddling while Rome (and the rest of the planet) is burning. There is no way to fix this without realising that our current lifestyles cannot be maintained.
Personally, I think it will take a major climate catastrophe before significant change happens. Worldwide food production is based on the assumption that the climate will remain as it always has been. We have, in the west, never seen famines, yet. Parts of the US midwest (ie: grain belt) are already abnormally dry: https://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/CurrentMap/StateDroughtMonitor.aspx?Midwest
(We buy US wheat)

SV650rules

19-05-21, 07:06 AM

redtrummy

19-05-21, 07:28 AM

Do we have a right to electricity 24 hrs a day 7 days a week? There could be an argument that for the good of the planet sacrifices and compromises may have to be made.

Seeker

19-05-21, 07:49 AM

Wales is gonna build a floating 70GW windfarm LOL On the face of it that is 350,000 x 2MW wind turbines working at 100% capacity all the time LOL................ Today and for the last 6 weeks the 10,000+ wind turbines installed on and off shore in UK have been producing about 1 to 2 GW, a really really, really low capacity factor of <7% - at that factor Wales will need over 3.5 million turbines. If fossil fuels did one thing they freed us from the vagaries of nature which blighted earlier humans to subsistence existence, disease and early death.

I think you're missing the point. Yes, it would be nice if we could find an alternative energy source that would free us entirely from fossil fuels and maybe tidal energy should have more money put into it. We don't have an alternative energy source that fits the bill yet neither do we have the luxury of sitting on our hands and saying "crisis, what crisis?" If one single rotation of a wind turbine blade reduces the amount of fossil fuel that would have been burned, isn't that a good thing?

You like to quote wind turbine electricity production during calm periods; that's cherry picking data. How much electricity has been generated over the year by alternative energy that would have been totally produced by fossil fuels in previous decades?

I'm a pessimist and I suspect that we have left it too late to avoid the massive climatic disruption that is coming - I suspect the Gulf Stream disruption will be one of the first disasters. (see Atlantic cold blob: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_blob#:~:text=The%20cold%20blob%20in%20the,war ming%2Dinduced%20melting%20of%20the)

I am also old so many of these disasters will not affect me but does that mean as an old pessimist I think we should stop trying to fix the problem? No, of course not - I wish we would, as a species, put the planet before profit. Rant over.

daktulos

19-05-21, 08:45 AM

DJ123

19-05-21, 04:23 PM

It's all about storage and transportation. If we can store and transport energy efficiently, then it can work - it's a simple fact that fossil fuels are both of these. Big batteries can smooth out supply/demand inequalities and may be a big part of the future, but we still dig things out of the ground to make those.

I used to work with data centres, and they put as much energy into cooling them as is used by the servers. All of that energy used to pipe the heat to chillers on the roof, which basically just heats the atmosphere as waste heat. With such a concentrated heat source, imagine using what is otherwise waste heat to generate electricity, or even just heat homes. But you can't just store heat until the winter.

You can't cover the UAE with solar panels and store/transport the energy back to the UK in the same way, so generation is mostly local right now. But, I'm sure there are solutions, like converting electricity to hydrogen for transport - hydrogen may not be practical in a car, but in a power station?

The problem I have is that I really want a fossil fuel-free future, but there's no way the infrastructure will be in place by the deadlines. The latest was to ban gas boilers globally by 2025 - it would focus the mind, but right now we just don't have any alternatives.

Solutions all exist, the bigger issue is the companies who find solutions get bought up by those who currently run & own the existing market. Why would you want to have all your consumers switch, when your industry can still operate and make billions. You buy up the competition, and bring it into play when it suits you.

How many patents/plans/companies who have designed Hydrogen/electric/alternative fuel vehicles been bought by OPEC, and other Gas/oil companies? I'd bet there's a few.

Money runs this world. And what happens/changes is what fits the needs/desires of those who run it and can profit from it.