View Full Version : Immigration
Well, we've hammered climate change/renewable energy and covid in various threads, time we looked at the latest hot topic: immigration. :)
Cruella Patel has had 2 years or so to "fix" immigration and said recently it takes time. Since the same old plans keep cropping up which seem to be mainly to blame France, maybe a different approach is needed? What country would allow foreign police to patrol their shores - not one, so stop suggesting it BoZo. Why should France take the immigrants back? We aren't in the EU, so stop suggesting that too.
There is an interesting thread on reddit that was written by a Kurd on why immigrants want to come to the UK and not Germany.
https://old.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/r39m7x/why_so_many_people_want_to_move_to_uk_and_not/
In a nutshell it says that Germany requires language proficiency and in the UK it's easy to join the black market and work without paying taxes.
Maybe we need to look at who is employing these people and/or introduce an ID system to make it harder to work illegally. It seems peculiar that we are complaining that there aren't enough workers when there's a steady stream wanting to come here and work. I guess it's the "take back control thing" which doesn't seem to working anyway.
we are not in the EU so we dont have to let other members of the EU public work here.. if they want to work in the UK then they need to become a citizen.
the whole fiasco could have been sorted by creating a "workforce bulletin board" where every job in the EU was posted no matter the country, you would then apply to work where the job was and if successful you were granted a "visa". if you lost your job then back home to your country of origin.
the problem now is that we dont get help with welfare handouts that we did when a member of the EU.
close the doors.... simple. if you want in the UK you apply via the proper channels.
illegal immigrants if caught should be remanded without bail and returned to their country of origin. if they dont give their nationality then there are lots of islands off the west coast of Scotland that are teaming with midge that they can be put on... if the tables were turned they would do the same to us........ ever seen Turkish prisons..... the UK's are hotels compared to them.
Biker Biggles
27-11-21, 03:49 PM
](*,)Luvvittt!
You Scots are easily offended at the best of times and I hate to think what the response would be if the good folk of Kent decided to dump 25000 boat people on you.:smt066
I make a prediction that it will be the same members who take the ant-immigrant stance as take the anti-covid/anti-climate change stance.
Putting aside any rights or wrongs of what is done, the way the UK/Britain/England views itself as the centre of the universe is interesting (and historically somewhat predictable). Essentially we only really have the Calais/Dover route as the UK's visible problem area for uncontrolled immigration.
The rest of Europe has tens of thousands of kms of borders across which immigrants can potentially and do pass. The other European countries are dealing with many times the number which eventually arrive at the UK. France specifically has many more immigrants entering the country, Germany also. The UK media talk as though France has only the coast at Calais to deal with and are failing miserably. I think they are dealing with a lot more, particularly at the south and east.
Ever since I've travelled across Europe, over 45yrs or so, it has been evident that in most other European countries the UK rarely features on the table of discussion, we simply aren't the big topic that our domestic media chatterers would like us to believe. It was true with Brexit and it is true with the business of migrants. They have enough of their own issues to deal with without bothering about the UK.
The headlines such as "French minister cancels meeting with Priti Patel in light of migrant crisis criticism" (Telegraph)
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/11/26/french-minister-cancels-meeting-priti-patel-light-migrant-crisis/
would have us believe it was just the 2 countries involved and a direct slight by France towards the UK, whereas in reality it was a joint meeting with Germany, France, Netherlands, and Belgium to discuss the issues in their mutual region. The apparent duplicitous activity of Johnson in his private discussion with Macron and then the subsequent letter and social media post was enough to prompt the withdrawal of the invitation to the UK to attend. The others will still proceed with their discussions I imagine, the absence of the UK will no doubt be regrettable but not decisive.
Having decided to take back control and sovereignty, separating us from the EU, the UK has basically chosen to be on its own in dealing with arrivals, unless of course we can actually behave in a respectful manner and agree with other countries some mutually acceptable programme to address some of the concerns and events. No other country is duty bound to bow and scrape and obey the UK's demands, and the more belligerently we behave the less likely we will be in gaining agreement. Of course this actually is desirable for the UK government because it provides someone else to blame for their own failures.
I'm not sure what Bibio's point is regarding EU working visas etc is. The fundamental principle within the EU is freedom of movement of people, jobs, capital. I worked in EU countries and didn't need any sort of permission, I would not be able to do that now. The UK can do what it wants pretty much, including rewriting the rules regarding rights and freedoms of the individual.
There is also the usual conflation of "illegal immigrants" with "refugees" and "asylum seekers". We seem to want to deal with the issue by the "Catch22" clause, you can't apply for asylum if you enter by unregulated ("illegal"?) means, and you can't enter by regulated "legal" means unless you have been granted asylum. Sorted.
I don't think the rules say anyone is obliged to apply for asylum in the first safe country they enter, I'm sure others can clarify this chapter and verse, but that's another issue.
There is bound to be a full spectrum of opinions, from bring them all in to hang them all high. It would be nice if people could respect others views without reverting to vitriol, but I doubt that will happen based on social media practice.
I think there is a deliberate Tory policy of antagonising the EU and especially France to distract from their own failures plus the continual need to appease the hard line Brexiteers within the party by showing Global Britain won't be pushed around (good grief). As an example of this is the French fishing licenses (in UK waters) - we insist that French fishermen prove that they were fishing previously by showing GPS records but small French boats don't have to that equipment installed so cannot prove it and thus don't get a license.
Priti Patel was a junior minister a few years ago when she was part of a meeting that was told that by cutting back the legal immigration/asylum routes it would increase the illegal attempts which is exactly what has happened. Now that she is Home Secretary all she does follow the same failed path and suggest more aggressive policies (transferring asylum seekers to far off islands or pushing the boats back). She's the hardliner that's trying to ban protest demonstrations and, as the daughter of immigrants, I would have thought she would have more empathy.
Apparently, it is easy for an illegal immigrant to enter the country and be absorbed into the ethnic community and begin working off the books. If we want to stop illegal immigration maybe investigating that would be a better place to begin. On the other hand, if these people are actually working it shows there is a need so produce an immigration system that offers a legal path for work or citizenship and thus take back control (!)
SV650rules
27-11-21, 07:45 PM
we are not in the EU so we dont have to let other members of the EU public work here.. if they want to work in the UK then they need to become a citizen.
the whole fiasco could have been sorted by creating a "workforce bulletin board" where every job in the EU was posted no matter the country, you would then apply to work where the job was and if successful you were granted a "visa". if you lost your job then back home to your country of origin.
the problem now is that we dont get help with welfare handouts that we did when a member of the EU..
Being as the UK was one of the few actual nett contributors to EU, and one of the biggest, that help with welfare handouts was just getting a bit of our own money back.. To allow anyone who turns up in a rubber boat ( provided by the French ) into the country is a real slap in the face for people who arrive through the proper channels ( not the English channel ).
redtrummy
27-11-21, 08:24 PM
For many English is a second language, that has got to be a great pull to come here. The more that integrate then that will encourage more and more to attempt to land here.
More people = more houses = less farm land = more reliance on imported food. In other words we will be more at the mercy of other countries. (What has just happened re gas supplies ? )
The tories have been promising to control immigration for years and have once again totally failed.
Some have predicted mass exodus from countries that will become inhabitable due to rising world temperatures, (with a mass immigration into Europe.) Its not a very optimistic look into the future is it.
I feel sorry for the future generations I really do.
a lot of ethnic people came over here from places like Jamaica and India as they had a right due to having British passports. a lot of Europeans done the same with their passport. that was then but this is now. different circumstances and i'm not saying send all ex EU members home, just put a stop to more entering and from far off shores as well. in 20 years the population has grown by 10,000,000 thats about double the population of Scotland. as a side note Scotland's population is growing not from immigrants as such but English moving north.
the extra migrants are entitled to our welfare and health system without ever paying into it and people wonder why our NHS is swamped.
look at how other country's deal with unwanted immigrants and you will quickly realise just how soft the UK is. being a brit we cant even emigrate to ex colonies such as Canada without scrutinisation...... so why should we allow anyone else free reign to enter the UK.
I am an immigrant here in Spain, and have been since before Brexit. To gain Residencia I had to prove income. And even though there is a Spanish Health system we didn’t/don’t qualify, and as part of Residencia we had to have health insurance. We don’t qualify for benefits, even though we pay tax here. And we have to carry ID.
All of the above was in place before Brexit.
I don’t blame immigrants for wanting to go to the U.K., I blame the soft touch, generous system that is in place.
I am an immigrant here in Spain, and have been since before Brexit. To gain Residencia I had to prove income. And even though there is a Spanish Health system we didn’t/don’t qualify, and as part of Residencia we had to have health insurance. We don’t qualify for benefits, even though we pay tax here. And we have to carry ID.
All of the above was in place before Brexit.
I don’t blame immigrants for wanting to go to the U.K., I blame the soft touch, generous system that is in place.
when we all had EU passports all members were entitled to what their country of origin had with regards to healthcare and welfare. there were and i think still are people living in Spain and claiming UK benefits and if they need hospital treatment the UK Gov pay for it.
all it will take to break the non official migrant rule is for one of the former EU member to start getting uppity about Brits staying in their country and all hell will break loose.
i am truly thankful that my parents made the decision to come back home after emigrating to Rhodesia/South Africa.
svenrico
03-12-21, 05:53 PM
'the way the UK/Britain/England views itself as the centre of the universe is interesting (and historically somewhat predictable).'
Doesn't every country view itself as the centre of the universe ?!
svenrico
03-12-21, 06:03 PM
](*,)Luvvittt!
You Scots are easily offended at the best of times and I hate to think what the response would be if the good folk of Kent decided to dump 25000 boat people on you.:smt066
He is offering to -
'if they dont give their nationality then there are lots of islands off the west coast of Scotland that are teaming with midge that they can be put on..'
and he is right, there are plenty of midge infested places in Scotland.;)
svenrico
03-12-21, 06:06 PM
Well, we've hammered climate change/renewable energy and covid in various threads, time we looked at the latest hot topic: immigration.
Have we finished with brexit ?!🤔
SV650rules
03-12-21, 06:32 PM
Well, we've hammered climate change/renewable energy and covid in various threads, time we looked at the latest hot topic: immigration.
Have we finished with brexit ?!🤔
Brexit is done and dusted and working well 'nothing to see here'... move along.
Brexit is done and dusted and working well 'nothing to see here'... move along.
Ha ha ha... good one. Oh, you're serious?
SV650rules
03-12-21, 08:50 PM
Ha ha ha... good one. Oh, you're serious?
Yup, very serious, City of London still handling gaziilions of Euros, ( because EU do not understand money ) and now moving into new markets - Nissan investing billions in UK, Shell and many other companies moving head offices into UK, fed up of the control freaks in Brussels... Yup, it is going great even though the EU thought they could shut UK down, it is now the EU that is fading slowly into oblivion..... their share of world trade dropping inexorably and up to their eyes in Covid ( should have used the AZ vaccine ). The EU is holed below the waterline... glug, glug..... and they are busy rearranging the deckchairs, UK is the lifeboat but is no use to EU. Inward tech, Business and scientific investment into UK more than Germany and France combined. Every thing is coming up roses....
I don't want another Brexit thread but...
Shell is moving HQ to UK (for lower corporate tax reasons).
City of London is (for the moment) handling Euro exchanges but overall City has lost much more business than expected:
https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/city-london-brexit-hit-worse-than-expected-says-study-2021-04-15/
Nissan has received more bribe money to build in Sunderland:
https://www.cityam.com/nissan-sunderland-batteries-brexit-boris-johnson/
You are in the 18% of Brits that think it's going well:
https://www.independent.co.uk/politics/brexit-uk-latest-yougov-poll-b1965140.html
It doesn't matter though because we're stuck with it, for better or worse.
svenrico
05-12-21, 05:01 PM
Yup, very serious, City of London still handling gaziilions of Euros, ( because EU do not understand money ) and now moving into new markets - Nissan investing billions in UK, Shell and many other companies moving head offices into UK, fed up of the control freaks in Brussels... Yup, it is going great even though the EU thought they could shut UK down, it is now the EU that is fading slowly into oblivion..... their share of world trade dropping inexorably and up to their eyes in Covid ( should have used the AZ vaccine ). The EU is holed below the waterline... glug, glug..... and they are busy rearranging the deckchairs, UK is the lifeboat but is no use to EU. Inward tech, Business and scientific investment into UK more than Germany and France combined. Every thing is coming up roses....
You could have fooled me !
only saving grace for the "city" is BOE and its offshore accounts. this is why some business is returning its headquarters to the UK so the EU courts cant investigate them.
we NEED the EU for food imports as the UK mainly England cant support its population with the resources we have. what happens when the EU has a food shortage???? the UK get nowt... remember its mostly the French and Spanish that the UK gets its food from and we all know how hot headed they can get............
Brexit is done and dusted and working well 'nothing to see here'... move along.
I'm sure Northern Ireland will be pleased to hear that.
SV650rules
06-12-21, 01:40 PM
I'm sure Northern Ireland will be pleased to hear that.
NI was the roadblock deliberately put there by EU to try to derail Brexit, UK just drove round it and will now go back an dismantle it :cool:
.
NI was the roadblock deliberately put there by EU to try to derail Brexit, UK just drove round it and will now go back an dismantle it :cool:
I am unsure where you get your information. If a non EU country wants to trade with the EU it has to agree to be bound by the single market regulations and the rules be enforced by the EU.
The UK was informed during the brexit negotiations that if we didn't want to be bound by these rules there would have to be a hard border between Northern and Southern Ireland or in the Irish Sea. Since it was decided that a hard border between N&S Ireland would break the Good Friday peace agreement the border would have to be in the Irish Sea.
Boris promised, at the time, that there would be no hard border in the Irish Sea - he was told publicly (and privately, presumably) that this was impossible.
If you believe Cummings, Boris agreed to this Irish Sea border to "get brexit done" with a view to breaking the agreement later.
I don't know whether to believe that or not but since Boris seems to break promises as often as he breaks wind, I am inclined to believe this chicanery.
If (when) Scotland goes independent and rejoins the EU, by EU rules, there will have to be a hard border between England and Scotland (unless England rejoins the single market with all the "loss of control" that would entail).
I find it disturbing that the UK is breaking international agreements that it signed in (apparently) good faith.
The Tories want an enemy at the gates - if brexit is a success they claim credit, if brexit continues to be disastrous, they blame the EU.
SV650rules
06-12-21, 02:37 PM
I find it disturbing that the UK is breaking international agreements that it signed in (apparently) good faith.
Agreements are not set in stone, they are re-negotiated all the time, and an agreement with the EU is not really ' international' - The EU has suffered from 'mission creep' since it was formed, where it has eroded member states sovereignty bit by bit, a bit like putting a frog in cold water and gradually heating it up... Junker himself is on record as saying 'there cannot be any democratic oversight of EU treaties by member states' - and more than 1 member - including France and Ireland were told to 'go and vote again and come back with the 'right' answer' - when they voted down signing up to treaties in referendums.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog
We all know why the EU is playing hard ball, their 'treasure Island' was leaving, one of the few members that actually obeyed EU rules, unlike Germany and France for instance, who blatantly broke the rules when they did not suit them. People in glass houses should not play with stones, and the EU is a big, protectionist glasshouse..
Agreements are not set in stone, they are re-negotiated all the time
So, you're saying Cummings was correct and we had no intention of abiding by the agreement. I'm sure agreements do get renegotiated occasionally if it suits both sides but generally after the ink has dried.
"International" means between nations btw. So, I think the EU/UK agreement qualifies since the EU is many nations. Our bad faith by signing an agreement which was flawed (when we knew and accepted the flaws) shows we, as a nation, are not trustworthy. If we didn't like the agreement about NI, it shouldn't have been signed.
svenrico
06-12-21, 04:57 PM
I'm sure Northern Ireland will be pleased to hear that..
Quite.
svenrico
06-12-21, 05:09 PM
The UK was informed during the brexit negotiations that if we didn't want to be bound by these rules there would have to be a hard border between Northern and Southern Ireland or in the Irish Sea. Since it was decided that a hard border between N&S Ireland would break the Good Friday peace agreement the border would have to be in the Irish Sea.
Boris promised, at the time, that there would be no hard border in the Irish Sea - he was told publicly (and privately, presumably) that this was impossible.
If (when) Scotland goes independent and rejoins the EU, by EU rules, there will have to be a hard border between England and Scotland (unless England rejoins the single market with all the "loss of control" that would entail).
Yes ,it just wasn't thought through by a lot of people was it. All this talk about 'taking back control' and 'sovereignty'. More like losing control when the EU can dictate what happens internally between countries in the UK.
And what about sovereignty, we always had sovereignty didn't we ?!
As somebody said, Brexit - the vote to take back control of what we hadn't lost and lose what we already have. I may be biased and the EU isn't perfect but I just saw years of uncertainty, disruption and chaos back in 2016. In fact I wrote a letter to the local paper expressing these views in 2017 and I haven't seem much so far to change things.
Apart from Northern Ireland and Scotland, how are the farming and fishing industries faring with Brexit ?
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