View Full Version : Dressing up
Our leader playing dress up:
https://i.ibb.co/TLvQpNG/Dressing-up.jpg
Now that PM Plod is on the case, we'll soon have the UK's drug problem fixed.
Craig380
07-12-21, 09:47 AM
Amusingly, a couple of people have reported him for impersonating a police officer.
like every other PM before him.
he may be a buffoon but he's a game buffoon.
like every other PM before him.
he may be a buffoon but he's a game buffoon.
+1. I'm not sure about the use of the word "leader" for this sort of reference.
BJ may be our current Prime Minister but he doesn't strike me as particularly visionary or selfless. Who knows where we'll end up if we follow or if it will be good for us?!!! I just think there's a big difference between being a genuine leader and being a chief executive, principal administrator, manager or playground prefect.
(BTW, this isn't a statement about political leanings or a dig at Seeker - I had much he same issue when Blair and Brown were PMs. It's a complaint against the drift of the English Language. For me, the same annoyance arises when people refer to the USA as the "leader of the free world" - utter claptrap*. Hmmm, perhaps this should be in Gripe of the Day post? Sorry!)
*stronger words are available in non-'U'-rated places!
+1. I'm not sure about the use of the word "leader" for this sort of reference.
I deliberately used the word "leader" in a mocking way since that is how Kim Jong-Un of North Korea is typically described.
The way that Boris has perfected the jovial clown charisma as a deflection tool as he dismantles our democracy and issues a continual stream of falsehoods and broken promises (and gets away with it) is quite clever, in a diabolical way.
The way people continue to think he's doing a fine job is quite "cult" like and reminds me of NK.
Last year's Downing St party is classic. Boris is satisfied (he says that a lot) that all covid rules were met, yet we have a whistleblower saying it was a party and now this video has been released mocking us plebs.
https://www.itv.com/news/2021-12-07/no-10-staff-joke-in-leaked-recording-about-christmas-party-they-later-denied
Will he get away with it? Of course.
I deliberately used the word "leader" in a mocking way since that is how Kim Jong-Un of North Korea is typically described.
Ah, fair do's - it went over my head. Sorry! :notworthy: (I wrongly assumed that you had succumbed to a subconscious synonym choice that happens to aggravate me.)
The way that Boris has perfected the jovial clown charisma as a deflection tool as he dismantles our democracy and issues a continual stream of falsehoods and broken promises (and gets away with it) is quite clever, in a diabolical way.
The way people continue to think he's doing a fine job is quite "cult" like and reminds me of NK.
Last year's Downing St party is classic. Boris is satisfied (he says that a lot) that all covid rules were met, yet we have a whistleblower saying it was a party and now this video has been released mocking us plebs.
https://www.itv.com/news/2021-12-07/no-10-staff-joke-in-leaked-recording-about-christmas-party-they-later-denied
Will he get away with it? Of course.
I just can't make my mind up whether there's extreme, astute cleverness at work or whether Hanlon's Razor should apply: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity". Whichever it is, defending the indefensible is a very strange stance, utterly baffling and unpalatable to me. :confused:
I agree the government and wider political system in this country does seem to have become more akin to a soap-opera pastiche of a very strange world, rather than reflecting a reality recognisable to most of the general populous, which is all the more troubling given it is, of course, definitely very real indeed.:shock: I'm still reeling from Raab's bizarre comment about the police seemingly not investigating the past. Perhaps "Minority Report" isn't fiction after all!
Last year's Downing St party is classic. Boris is satisfied (he says that a lot) that all covid rules were met, yet we have a whistleblower saying it was a party and now this video has been released mocking us plebs.
https://www.itv.com/news/2021-12-07/no-10-staff-joke-in-leaked-recording-about-christmas-party-they-later-denied
Will he get away with it? Of course.
Or maybe not. All interviews by ministers on today's tv (Wed 8Dec2021) have been cancelled:
https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/christmas-party-downing-street-bbc-gmb-v4f232b5e
I can just imagine the ministers quickly rifling through their book of euphemisms for lies: white lie? untruths? fibs? "I mis-spoke"? "Alternative truths". "Cheese and wine isn't really a party as such", "Nothing to see here". "Well, yes, technically it might be considered a party, but all rules were mostly followed". "It wasn't a "party"- party, just an informal get together".
yeah, let's go with "Alternative Truths", Trump's spokesperson used it and got away with it.
.... I just can't make my mind up whether there's extreme, astute cleverness at work or whether Hanlon's Razor should apply: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity". .....
Bear in mind this article is by the Grauniad, so it has its own agenda, however it provides more food for thought.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/as-we-turn-away-boris-johnson-is-grabbing-more-power-where-is-the-opposition/ar-AARACGw?ocid=msedgntp
You will notice that in his statement today at PMQs he used the standard verbal trick of apologising for the effects of the actions, but not for the actions themselves.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/dec/08/boris-johnson-apologises-unreservedly-over-no-10-christmas-party-video
Quote from the article - Before taking any questions, Johnson told the Commons he was “also furious to see that clip”, saying: “I can understand how infuriating it would be to think that the people who have been setting the rules have not been following the rules.”
He continued: “I apologise unreservedly for the offence that it has caused up and down the country, and apologise for the impression that it gives.”
At least Trump was open enough to say that he could walk down the street and shoot someone in the head, and his followers would still vote for him. Johnson thinks the same it would appear, and up till now they have continued to support him regardless of what he does. Surely at some point that must come to an end ..... surely?? Or maybe not, just look at the dictators of the past.
Biker Biggles
08-12-21, 02:02 PM
New investigation announced into the Downing St staff behaviour but Johnson still maintains no covid rules were broken. Has he already decided the outcome of this then?
the way i look at it is these people run our country, good or bad. if they let off a little steam during the festive season then i think they are entitled to it. ok so they broke the rules that THEY made... its not like they were out deliberately to throw it in the public's face. i dont think people actually realise just how hard some of these politicians work for their "basic" sh!t wages. jeezz i know a few Joiners that earn more than the PM's base pay.
yes there were more than likely people out there that could not get too see their loved ones who were dying but they would not have been able to see them anyway so its a moot point.
you only break rules/laws if you get caught otherwise you have not broken any rules/laws. deniability is the preferred choice of action.
lets face it they haven't done nearly as bad as chemically castrating a genius due to them being gay........ the public need to get on with their own lives and leave others alone...
BoZo is entitled to £161000. He made at least twice that as a journalist until he got fired for lying. Average UK salary is £26,000. He/his government sets rules and should follow them, no excuses.
If this incident was a one off I might be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt but this is another screw up, more lies told at a time when he expects us to trust him.
Work hard? They get about 80 days holiday/year and even a back bencher gets £82,000.
They chose to be in the public eye to work for and represent their constituents, if they don't want to perform this job ethically and honestly: quit. I have no sympathy only scorn.
the way i look at it is these people run our country, good or bad. if they let off a little steam during the festive season then i think they are entitled to it. ok so they broke the rules that THEY made... its not like they were out deliberately to throw it in the public's face. i dont think people actually realise just how hard some of these politicians work for their "basic" sh!t wages. jeezz i know a few Joiners that earn more than the PM's base pay.
yes there were more than likely people out there that could not get too see their loved ones who were dying but they would not have been able to see them anyway so its a moot point.
They were enforced rules / law they made to keep people safe. Which they knowingly broke.
The Queen sat alone at the Funeral of her own Husband, because of the rules this Circus created. But BJ couldn't not have a party . . . .
Yes the PM wage might not be all that (leading your country is not about £££), but its everything he takes home - everything else is an expense . . . . & still not an excuse to break the law.
"Sorry i was speeding officer, but my wage is sh!t"
They'll be lucky if more than 50% of the nation follow any more directives given the circus this lot have portrayed themselves to be. Creating rules to control the masses while willingly breaking them and creating loophole to suit them.
the way i look at it is these people run our country, good or bad. if they let off a little steam during the festive season then i think they are entitled to it. ok so they broke the rules that THEY made... its not like they were out deliberately to throw it in the public's face.
They chose to be in the public eye to work for and represent their constituents, if they don't want to perform this job ethically and honestly: quit. I have no sympathy only scorn.
They were enforced rules / law they made to keep people safe. Which they knowingly broke.
Usually I'm a live and let live kind of person. But on this occasion, I agree with Seeker and DJ123 and disagree with Bibio.
As part of some management training many years ago, I was told that, when in a position of power, authority or leadership, "the lowest standard you set is the highest standard you can expect". I recall it today because I think it was appropriate guidance - sadly the bar does seem to be being set quite low and dropping, doesn't it?
garynortheast
08-12-21, 10:10 PM
I saw a post on farcebook a couple of days ago, which has stuck with me. The poster said, "You know all those documentaries you've watched about a dictator's path to power?
You know there's always the bit where you think "Why didn't people do something? They could have stopped him while there was still time"
Well, we're at that point now."
ethariel
09-12-21, 02:26 AM
Anyone ever had a tour of 10 Downing Street?
It's fairly large, much larger than you would expect and a real mishmash of listed building areas, office IT and other spaces too coincidentally the PM usually lives in 11DS (The flat there is a lot bigger than No 10).
Did he attend? - Probably not, was he 100% aware it was going on? Well there is bit of a gulf between what Ministers and Civil Servants tend to discuss at the best of times so as to whether he was aware there was a party happening or not is a bit of a tossup it's like the MD of Shell knowing what the staff 8 floors down are doing on Friday night.
Is it excusable? - If he was aware of it taking place then no it's not excusable, if he was unaware of it taking place then ok the civil servants messed up but let THEM shoulder the blame.
Is it excusable? - If he was aware of it taking place then no it's not excusable, if he was unaware of it taking place then ok the civil servants messed up but let THEM shoulder the blame.
Doesn't this come under the term "leadership"? Setting the standards of ethical behaviour? Explanation of what you expect from your staff?
We have seen ministers flaunt the rules, get caught and be let off with Boris' blessing. This sends a message saying rules are not important so even if Boris was unaware of an alleged party, he is as much responsible as those attending (imho).
Craig380
09-12-21, 09:49 AM
If he was unaware of the party, then having been made aware of it he should have set an example and disciplined / reported to the police those who attended, to clearly show they are not above the law.
The fact that this wasn't done and hasn't been done - and that No. 10 is clutching at any straw that it can - clearly indicates that he knew full well about the party. His actions are those of someone who is terrified that evidence will emerge which clearly places him at the party.
As stories emerge of a second Tory party that broke lockdown rules:
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/christmas-party-downing-street-tories-second-covid-restrictions-december-092502264.html
(and rumours of 5 more), here's a bit of levity:
https://newsthump.com/2021/12/08/boris-johnson-announces-plan-b-for-the-public-and-cardi-b-for-the-number-10-christmas-party/
SV650rules
09-12-21, 05:03 PM
New investigation announced into the Downing St staff behaviour but Johnson still maintains no covid rules were broken. Has he already decided the outcome of this then?
Police taking no action on Downing Street party, they say not enough evidence..
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59588413?at_medium=RSS&at_campaign=KARANGA
.
Police taking no action on Downing Street party, they say not enough evidence..
.
Ms.D1ck wants to keep her job, there won't be a police investigation. You scratch my back .......
Biker Biggles
09-12-21, 06:46 PM
Police have a good record of not taking action against anyone in or close to government over COVID-19 issues. It’s the proles who get done not the elite
redtrummy
09-12-21, 06:55 PM
Too true BB.It all stinks!
ethariel
09-12-21, 08:01 PM
Doesn't this come under the term "leadership"? Setting the standards of ethical behaviour? Explanation of what you expect from your staff?
We have seen ministers flaunt the rules, get caught and be let off with Boris' blessing. This sends a message saying rules are not important so even if Boris was unaware of an alleged party, he is as much responsible as those attending (imho).
If it was a bunch of MP's having a jolly party then yes it's down to leadership, however Civil Servants are party neutral and eternal, they pass from government to government and are a law unto themselves.
Think of MP's as contractors working for the civil service on medium term contracts, they come and go then you get a clearer picture of how it wotrks.
Think of MP's as contractors working for the civil service on medium term contracts, they come and go then you get a clearer picture of how it wotrks.
I think you're being too generous to them. Employment basis really has nothing to do with it and is not a good analogy IMHO. Ministers are in positions at the top of Departments to lead them. The leadership and senior management responsibilities they have whilst in post do not diminish just because they may change in a flash, whether by re-shuffle or election. A contractor can quite easily be in charge of "permanent" staff.
Civil servants follow the rules (yes, supposedly without bias) but Government sets the policy (according to their political ideologies) that creates those rules. The guiding mind is always with the MPs (officially at least - I accept reality may depend on other 'influences'). So that's where the ultimate accountability rests too - they're not supposed to be puppet figureheads
ethariel
10-12-21, 07:12 AM
I think you're being too generous to them. Employment basis really has nothing to do with it and is not a good analogy IMHO. Ministers are in positions at the top of Departments to lead them. The leadership and senior management responsibilities they have whilst in post do not diminish just because they may change in a flash, whether by re-shuffle or election. A contractor can quite easily be in charge of "permanent" staff.
Civil servants follow the rules (yes, supposedly without bias) but Government sets the policy (according to their political ideologies) that creates those rules. The guiding mind is always with the MPs (officially at least - I accept reality may depend on other 'influences'). So that's where the ultimate accountability rests too - they're not supposed to be puppet figureheads
If the Civil Service agrees with a Government policy or change, you can guarentee they will move heaven and earth to make it happen, if however they really don't like a new policy or change, expect it to be buried for the next 4 or so years till a new 'government' is elected.
The golden oldie of 'Yes Minister' is pretty much so true to form as to be scary.
Biker Biggles
10-12-21, 11:48 AM
What's getting lost in the murk here is that the downing street party is a minor incident in itself as is the video of the woman having a laugh. She wasnt even at the party. The real issue,as in many previous incidents, is the integrity of the primer minister and the government he leads. Denial that a party happened while adding that no rules were broken at this non existant party makes Johnson either an idiot or a liar. He lies as a matter of routine and that will be his undoing. The Downing st redecoration is another one. A totally minor issue blown up by Johnson telling lies about it. He cant help himself
svenrico
11-12-21, 11:50 PM
What's getting lost in the murk here is that the downing street party is a minor incident in itself as is the video of the woman having a laugh. She wasnt even at the party. The real issue,as in many previous incidents, is the integrity of the primer minister and the government he leads. Denial that a party happened while adding that no rules were broken at this non existant party makes Johnson either an idiot or a liar. He lies as a matter of routine and that will be his undoing. The Downing st redecoration is another one. A totally minor issue blown up by Johnson telling lies about it. He cant help himself
I took the woman (ex Peston show ) as laughing sarcastically at what they were expecting her to say about the party. It was on the radio today that it was civil servants celebrating with a few drinks at their desks, whatever that might mean.
It seems to be taking an awful long time for somebody who was actually there to speak up and explain what actually happened ! Hancock was the latest I saw being asked to comment ,and he could quite conveniently say he wasn't actually there ! Time they interviewed somebody who was there then.
As far as ridiculous comment about police not investigating past incidents is concerned, the police can investigate murders that happened decades ago.
garynortheast
12-12-21, 09:55 PM
As usual, this man has summed up the situation quite well I think.
**Just a quick warning - contains lots of swearing**
https://youtu.be/qJKUND80BjU
why has it taken a year for the xmas party thing to come to light.... media hype.. so media ****** can jump about with their fists in the air....
what's really going on... is what you should be asking. this is all a classic case of deflection. or lack of real news.....
why has it taken a year for the xmas party thing to come to light
because someone somewhere let slip a comment, a journalist overheard and started digging, found a thread and offered money for a scoop. It's how these nefarious activities normally surface.
Don't shoot the messenger, we need the press to (try and) keep the government honest.
The problem is now twofold, the first issue is that some kind of get together/party/cheese&wine/gathering did take place against the government's rules at that time and BoZo and his clown posse have lied and continue to lie about it.
It has almost reached the point where the distractions are lies to cover up previous lies.
I suggested to my MP yesterday that since the Conservatives like 3 word slogans a good one would be:
LEARN SOME ETHICS.
ethariel
13-12-21, 09:36 AM
It's not really that it's taken a year for the story to break it's the fact that its being used as a political bashing stick instead of a news story.
How many other Xmas parties took place last year - probably in the 10's of thousands.
Unfortunately in the UK a 'News Story' has to involve one of the following to get any traction in the media at all - Death(s), tragedy or political intrigue. Nothing else seems to get print space or air time any more.
How many other Xmas parties took place last year - probably in the 10's of thousands.
but those people weren't the ones setting the rules for us to follow.
It's not really that it's taken a year for the story to break it's the fact that its being used as a political bashing stick instead of a news story.
as it should. It's bad enough that they had the parties in the first place but then the (ongoing) lying to try and cover it up.
Had they just stopped and said: "you caught us, we shouldn't have had a party, we're deeply sorry". It would have blown over by now. Instead they take us for idiots: "it was only cheese and wine" or "it wasn't a party there was no alcohol". Just cocaine perhaps?
ethariel
13-12-21, 12:06 PM
I still have to disagree in a way.
The Government did not hold a party, the Civil Service did.
I agree the head of the Civil Service should step forward and take it on the chin but that's more unlikely than Boris sprouting a halo and wings and proclaiming himself the second coming.
If it was a room full of MP's then I'd 100% be in agreement that heads should roll BUT it wasn't.
It seems it's not just me who thinks Johnson's "national emergency" broadcast last night was an attempt at a smokescreen, a dead cat on the table.
If it's that urgent and desperate then other actions are needed beyond boosters. It's the tactic of setting a target which will appear to be a success if achieved, just like the targets set by Hancock at the beginning of the test roll-out.
Bring in the Army and loads of volunteers, then congratulate and thank them and the wonderful NHS for the sterling efforts and magnificent achievements, haven't we all done a brilliant job, .............. now what was all that nonsense about proberty and honesty??
(PS - talking about Johnson and the second coming in the same sentence is a bit ironic ...... must be at least 7 by now.)
I still have to disagree in a way.
The Government did not hold a party, the Civil Service did.
I agree the head of the Civil Service should step forward and take it on the chin.
so why lie about it, then? Explain it was civil servants and that there'll be an inquiry and we'll all nod and smile and forget it knowing that nothing will get done. The continuing lies about something that obviously did occur means we smell blood.
It seems it's not just me who thinks Johnson's "national emergency" broadcast last night was an attempt at a smokescreen, a dead cat on the table.
it's not just you and therein lies the problem. This taped broadcast coming so quickly after talks of MP's rebellion and the still-lingering party debacle induces a sense of cynicism. The last thing this government needs now is for the public's trust to collapse completely. Unfortunately, with the circulating lies and now 70+ MPs promising to rebel against their own government - if they don't trust the government's advice then why should we?
I suspect most people will now be making their own decisions instead of trusting Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson.
Luckypants
13-12-21, 01:33 PM
I suspect most people will now be making their own decisions instead of trusting Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson.
This.
After toeing the line and following all the guidance, given the lies over lockdown breaking by No. 10 (not forgetting the Cummings fiasco) people will (rightly) say Foxtrot Oscar to any restrictions limiting plans for Christmas.
I suspect most people will now be making their own decisions instead of trusting Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson.
I'm already well past the point where I trust one iota the people giving the instructions.
Thankfully, I think I still have enough moral compass, reasearch capability and critical reasoning capacity left so that I do still generally obey the rules set.
For the time being ... (I do wonder if we're not far now from mass disagreement that will take us beyond the tipping point.)
I still have to disagree in a way.
The Government did not hold a party, the Civil Service did.
I agree the head of the Civil Service should step forward and take it on the chin but that's more unlikely than Boris sprouting a halo and wings and proclaiming himself the second coming.
If it was a room full of MP's then I'd 100% be in agreement that heads should roll BUT it wasn't.
As I posted previously, my view is that Ministers (and thus the MPs that selected them) cannot shirk blame, because they are put in place to direct the Civil Service through setting vision and policy for running the country.
IMHO they are accountable for the performance of the administration even if most of the day to day management is dealt with elsewhere. (I agree some Civil Servants also need to be appropriately put to disciplinary procedure but just finding a scapegoat does not cut it.)
If the Civil Service in Downing Street is so dysfunctional that it is not able to comply with the highest profile of Government diktat then I suggest we really are in a very bad place! ](*,) Would you not agree?
i've said all along that its not so much the politicians that are the problem its the advisers and civil servants. you know the people you dont get to vote for. political parties come and go the background people stay the same.
every single political party that has ever got in power in the UK has been corrupt and law breaking... its not news.
the public have a choice when it comes to voting time but morons keep voting for the same big two and then complain when all the corruption starts.. people dont learn...
The news may have moved on by the omicron panic (to BoZo's delight) but "Led by Donkeys" want to help the police with their (none) investigation. To this end, they produced a video which is displayed on the side of a truck, it's implied that it's parked outside Scotland Yard but I'm unsure this is the case.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y18CrgFdh4
garynortheast
16-12-21, 11:48 AM
Just watched that earlier this morning. Excellent video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y18CrgFdh4
they need to get a life. "Who exactly does the Metropolitan Police work for ma’am? Our citizens, or Boris Johnson?" neither you muppets. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Police
some people will just keep spouting sh!t as long as the public listen to them....
The bottom line is that the police are not investigating using feeble excuses, when clearly they should be investigating. Allowing governments to get away with breaking their own rules is the path to fascism.
This government is already limiting the right to protest and Raab doesn't like the Human Rights act and has plans to weaken it.
They are trying to reduce the oversight of watchdogs and want ministers to be able to overrule judicial reviews.
This particular government is not to be trusted. They are good with slogans and even better with sleaze.
we do not stay in or are heading towards a fascist state in the UK... stop listening to morons on youtube and reading them on news papers/feeds. they are poisoning your mind for their gain and agenda.
so what if they had an xmas party, they wont be the first and they wont be the last politicians etc.etc to flaunt the rules/laws.. what about the morons that had gyms open or lock ins in pubs etc.etc...
lets face it we have all flaunted the law at some point in our lives.. should we all be condemned and dragged through the mud because we made a mistake.........
the UK is not perfect but i would rather stay here and have bozo and his crew (including the opposition) than stay in somewhere like Russia or USof*******s.
right now the UK is the best place to stay in the whole world and will continue to be so for a long time to come. yes the UK has its faults but not half as bad as most places.
for those that dont like it here in the UK then go stay somewhere else and see just how great it is there...
so what if they had an xmas party, they wont be the first and they wont be the last politicians etc.etc to flaunt the rules/laws.. what about the morons that had gyms open or lock ins in pubs.
You miss the point. If a member of the public flaunts the rules and are caught they get punished but these are not just members of the public they are the people that set the rules. If they cannot follow their own rules they should be held to account.
I would suggest that our country is drifting inexorably to the right.
1) we have constant reminders about patriotism. global Britain. All cabinet ministers now have to have a flag in the background when interviewed
2) Checks on ministers behaviour are being reduced (including electoral commission)
3) Ministers are trying to control the courts.
4) The media is constantly accused of bias.
5) protests are being restricted.
6) restrictions on voting - picture ids will be needed despite no evidence of voter fraud (the reason given).
7) Redistricting - constituencies are being redrawn which looks like a power grab by Tories.
This isn't a case of saying the UK is bad, elsewhere is good, this is saying this government is taking us to a place we haven't been before and it looks worryingly less democratic.
all of your above points have been going on in parliament since.. well forever. its just that the things they get up to are more exposed by media, or not depending on the flavour of the day.
things move forward and if the minority of the public cant control themselves then the Gov has to step in and control them for the sake of the many.
if you want to moan about your PM moan to the Queen.
since 1945 it has been a primarily dominant Conservative Government with Labour holding up the rear and the odd coalition. Labour gets in and spends, the Conservative get in and tighten the belts then Labour gets in again and spends it all and the wheels on the buss go round and round till where we are at today.
the UK public only have themselves to blame by being brainwashed to vote mainly for the big two with slogans such as "its a wasted vote to vote for XX". anybody that has even a hint of taking the crown from the big two is bombarded with stories and slander. the power of media controls the minds of the many.....
all of your above points have been going on in parliament since.. well forever.
err, no they have not.
The flag waving is new. Union Jack to be flown daily on government buildings introduced in Mar2021 - recommended for council buildings too. At same time BoZo told ministers to have flag in background when interviewed.
Watchdogs have been in place and uncontested until now when BoZo has tried to get powers to decide if they can investigate. After the ethics advisor quit (because BoZo would not follow his advice) we didn't have one for 6 months.
Courts have always been independent until now
The open hostility to the BBC is palpable. Nadine Dorries wants it and Ch 4 controlled
Priti Patel is introducing restrictions on the right to protest
We have never had picture id requirement for voting. At the 2019 election there were 6 reported voter fraud cases investigated (out of 30+ million) but only 1 prosecution. It will stop people voting, especially poorer people.
The redistricting will yield more MPs for the south, fewer for the north and deprived areas.
All of this is searchable.
This government is also restricting the use of the Freedom of Information act (illegally) by delaying or ignoring requests.
As long as the (none Tory mouthpiece) media keeps shining a spotlight the lies, corruption and law breaking we stand a chance of keeping the government honest. This is why the youtube video is important to keep the message alive.
The big problem here is apathy or saying: "they all do it". No, they don't.
redtrummy
16-12-21, 06:40 PM
The present Government appears to consider itself unaccountable, and considering the ridiculous throw away expense painting planes, making 'blue rooms' and conveniently giving contacts to those that fill the party coffers I am not sure which is the party of spend
Biker Biggles
17-12-21, 08:47 AM
It may be true that "they all do it" but some do it a lot more than others. Im over 60 and I can honestly say that I have never seen a more corrupt government than the one we have now. I have never seen a PM who lies as openly and regularly as Johnson or who tolerates open wrongdoing and corruption among his ministers and advisers. Even his own supporters know it and some of them are willing to vote to stop him judging by todays shropshire election results. Sadly the damage he does will be with us for a long time whatever happens now.
It may be true that "they all do it" but some do it a lot more than others.
Maybe there are words missing? "all Boris' cabinet ministers do it"
ahem...
I think we need to change the "party" narrative question. Did any government minister or MP NOT have a party during lockdown based on today's revelation?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/grant-shapps-staff-boozed-danced-25718548
garynortheast
17-12-21, 12:13 PM
Another one.
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/pm-admits-joining-pizza-wine-bash-during-first-covid-lockdown-people-are-furious-305290/
Another one.
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/pm-admits-joining-pizza-wine-bash-during-first-covid-lockdown-people-are-furious-305290/
read reaction number 7... ermm i think the hospital broke the law as well then..
read reaction number 7... ermm i think the hospital broke the law as well then..
I think you would have a hard time convincing any sane person that sitting with your dying father in the ICU equates to PM attending a pizza and wine party thus breaking the rules that he had set.
garynortheast
17-12-21, 01:49 PM
I think you would have a hard time convincing any sane person that sitting with your dying father in the ICU equates to PM attending a pizza and wine party thus breaking the rules that he had set.
Absolutely. There's a huge difference between a daughter wanting to spend the last few hours of her father's life with him, and a bunch of selfish turds and cokeheads having a shindig at the public's financial and ethical expense.
well. you are saying rules are rules.. there is no difference regarding the law. if the PM and his cronies get punished then so should the idiot telling the public she got to sit with her father while he died. after all she broke the law at the time. or do you want one rule for others? if you do then you must forgive the "party". sorry but i don't see a difference.
garynortheast
17-12-21, 04:05 PM
Maybe that's because I think that compassion and humanity have an important place in life.
well. you are saying rules are rules.. there is no difference regarding the law. if the PM and his cronies get punished then so should the idiot telling the public she got to sit with her father while he died. after all she broke the law at the time. or do you want one rule for others? if you do then you must forgive the "party". sorry but i don't see a difference.
Do you truly see life so black and white? You see no difference between the rule setter PM breaking the rules by attending a party and a daughter sitting with her dying father where she is most likely attired in PPE?
A PM that has a track record of ignoring rules and lying constantly?
I think that government ministers should lead by example and should be held to a higher standard than the average person, they chose this (well paid) life where they are in the public eye.
I think you're just trying to wind us up, I cannot believe you're serious.
Boris appointed top civil servant to investigate "gatherings", Simon Case also attended a party/gathering during lockdown. No bias there, then.
https://www.independent.co.uk/politics/simon-case-downing-street-covid-party-b1978167.html
hard to believe but i'm a fairly compassionate person. no i dont see things in black and white but i do read between the lines like any sensible person should.
yes our politicians should lead by example and i also think they should be accountable for their actions.. just like the public should, but we seem to live in a blameless society fuelled by apathy and self obsession and our current politicians are just the same.
i think the UK has a lot more problems to worry about than some booze up in Downing Street but the media have blown it all out of proportion like they always do to rile up the public.
due to the self obsession and apathy of the public in the UK they are allowing THEIR politicians to run wild, if you dont tell your MP's what to do they will do as they please as whats happening now so dont blame the politicians for the fault of the public..
i'm not trying to wind anyone up but you have to remember that there is always two sides to a coin. if you think your life is a double headed coin then you really should take a long hard look at your life.
i'm not saying that they done right but i do believe that the media has blown this all out of proportion. and i'm beginning to suspect that its a "get out clause" for another election. nobody in their right mind would want to run the UK right now as it cant be fixed.
people moan about our Gov spending money on such things as painting a plane so our Prime Minister can go as a dignitary to other country's and not look like we are poor.. FFS it should have been a new plane.. why not fly our national flag from government buildings, pretty much every country in the world do it. what is wrong with the UK public...
Reading between the lines?
We were/are in the middle of a pandemic.
The government sets the rules for us to follow
We do.
They don't.
Public safety jeopardised because of their stupidity - is that blown out of proportion?
What they did was irresponsible and on top of the PPE cronyism, the corruption, the lies - it needs to be repeated enough times that the average person takes note, remembers it and chooses accordingly at the next election.
The Shropshire by-election shows it can happen if publicised sufficiently.
Write to my MP. Check - do that frequently. Even when he agrees he votes party line. Waste of time but I continue to do it.
As for painting aircraft it's another of BoZo's vanity projects. Thames Garden Bridge, Bendy buses, Press Briefing Room, Scotland-NI bridge. He should fly commercial airlines - we are a poor country with massive debt, let's not pretend otherwise. Fix the damn roads if we have that much money to waste and electrify the rail network.
Flags?
In 1775 Samuel Johnson said: "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel"
Nothing has changed.
well. you are saying rules are rules.. there is no difference regarding the law. if the PM and his cronies get punished then so should the idiot telling the public she got to sit with her father while he died. after all she broke the law at the time. or do you want one rule for others? if you do then you must forgive the "party". sorry but i don't see a difference.
I agree in principle - if you have rules then they should apply equally. Exceptions can be a portal to corruption and discrimination. "Justice is blind" allegedly.
This illustrates why 'rules' are so hard to define and why they can often be a bad thing, because all discretion is removed by default. It's why I always worry about rushed legislation based on groupthink or 'knee-jerk' (that doesn't get a lot of debate, challenge, testing from many perspectives, review etc. before enactment) and why we absolutely need separation of powers of legislature and judiciary. Not perfect, but IMHO the least bad of the alternatives if we don't have a benevolent dictator aligned with our morals who we trust.
Maybe that's because I think that compassion and humanity have an important place in life.
I also agree in principle. The challenge is how to blend the absolutes that rules create and the impossible-to-predict situations that reality often throws us. Surely made harder when different views of 'fair' are thrown into the mix?
Do you truly see life so black and white? You see no difference between the rule setter PM breaking the rules by attending a party and a daughter sitting with her dying father where she is most likely attired in PPE?
'Difference in reality', yes, but 'difference in Law', no (as above). That's the difference!
Sad but true, maybe, so what's crucial is that we deal with poor outcomes when they become apparent and learn from them to improve - which does seems to be missing somewhat in current politics.
... the PPE cronyism, the corruption, ...
I've actually been wondering about this quite a bit. I'm not 100% sure it's deliberate intent just to funnel public money for personal gain (as seems to be the general accusation). I think they were genuinely trying to (primarily) solve the problem on PPE. It's surely more a skewed secondary outcome, a foreseeable bonus at worst. I know some don't agree but I think 'Hanlon's Razor' applies.
To contrast, consider this: if your bike breaks down suddenly, would you turn to someone you knew for help or would you throw open the local Yellow Pages and just call round the bike shops listed there? The scale is different of course, thus needing more rigorous checks and balances (in the absence of trust), but wouldn't you say the principle wasn't the same?
... Fix the damn roads ... and electrify the rail network.
This I like!:thumbsup:
Re: cronyism and corruption (over PPE)
I've actually been wondering about this quite a bit. I'm not 100% sure it's deliberate intent just to funnel public money for personal gain (as seems to be the general accusation). I think they were genuinely trying to (primarily) solve the problem on PPE.
It's generous of you giving them the benefit of the doubt. Where it falls down, though, is the fact the some of the money was funneled towards friends who had no experience of making PPE whilst ignoring (UK) PPE companies that couldn't get any replies from government and consequently shipped their stock to Denmark and Italy instead. As a postscript, some of the products made by the cronies proved unusable/unsuitable.
There was a VIP list for PPE contracts, 10 Tory MPs/Peers had contacts with the companies on the list including the minister in charge of procurement. Estimated value: £1.6 billion.
Not Hanlon's razor, Occam's razor. :rolleyes:
garynortheast
18-12-21, 08:55 AM
Ooops....
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/simon-case-covid-lockdown-party-inquiry-b1978409.html?utm_content=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3RgX_iOvMm0jZZaF0npReRRSjBM9-dnvjygJMXsxptHUrBH6S_F4al6LI#Echobox=1639771436
Ooops....
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/simon-case-covid-lockdown-party-inquiry-b1978409.html?utm_content=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3RgX_iOvMm0jZZaF0npReRRSjBM9-dnvjygJMXsxptHUrBH6S_F4al6LI#Echobox=1639771436
Simon Case interview with PM
PM: we need you to investigate illicit government parties.
Case: yes, PM
PM: did you attend any illegal parties, Simon?
Case: err, actually, yes I did PM
PM: excellent! You'll be perfect for the job - don't forget: "nothing to see here!" is our mantra.
Denial.Distract.Divert.
wow the media are not half milking this.
Re: cronyism and corruption (over PPE)
It's generous of you giving them the benefit of the doubt. Where it falls down, though, is the fact the some of the money was funneled towards friends who had no experience of making PPE whilst ignoring (UK) PPE companies that couldn't get any replies from government and consequently shipped their stock to Denmark and Italy instead. As a postscript, some of the products made by the cronies proved unusable/unsuitable.
There was a VIP list for PPE contracts, 10 Tory MPs/Peers had contacts with the companies on the list including the minister in charge of procurement. Estimated value: £1.6 billion.
Not Hanlon's razor, Occam's razor. :rolleyes:
You could very well be correct that I'm being generous. I haven't researched in detail, only pondering. What you describe is bad, of course, and I don't know why the existing supply chain arrangements couldn't deal with the increased volumes of demand. I don't dispute that the outcome was poor, whatever the drive behind it.
I did mean Hanlon's Razor though ("Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity" - it's only anecdotal and not scientifically proven, but it covers surprisingly well in my experience). I definitely didn't mean it to be any more complimentary to them (they do seem to be f'ing idiots when judged by the reasoning of the common citizen! :smt093)
Now you mention it though, Occam's Razor may be an appropriate consideration for the number of MPs we have in Parliament. Our 'whip' system of toe-ing the line seems to suggest to me that we only really need a couple in Parliament for each party, rather than 600+. As we're seeing more just recently, it's pretty much presented as scandalous when MPs don't vote in line with their party leader. Is that a good thing? I'm not convinced. What's the point of a mass vote if there's no real freedom to choose how to vote? (Shouldn't individual MP voting be demonstrably in line with constituents wishes perhaps?!)
wow the media are not half milking this.
They make money out of chaos, instabilty and bad news, so no real wonder IMHO.
wow the media are not half milking this.
something else to milk :rolleyes:
Lord Frost, the current Brexit negotiator has resigned, allegedly unhappy with direction Conservative policy is going. He is/was a hardliner when it came to Brexit and on the more extreme right side of conservatism.
garynortheast
18-12-21, 09:32 PM
Sounds to me like the tories are imploding. Can't say I'm sorry, although it makes me worried about which bunch of far right nutters will succeed them.
svenrico
18-12-21, 11:15 PM
Re: cronyism and corruption (over PPE
It's generous of you giving them the benefit of the doubt. Where it falls down, though, is the fact the some of the money was funneled towards friends who had no experience of making PPE whilst ignoring (UK) PPE companies that couldn't get any replies from government and consequently shipped their stock to Denmark and Italy instead. As a postscript, some of the products made by the cronies proved unusable/unsuitable.
There was a VIP list for PPE contracts, 10 Tory MPs/Peers had contacts with the companies on the list including the minister in charge of procurement. Estimated value: £1.6 billion.
Not Hanlon's razor, Occam's razor. :rolleyes:
Is anybody being held responsible /being investigated for this scandal ? Probably not !
svenrico
18-12-21, 11:33 PM
well. you are saying rules are rules.. there is no difference regarding the law. if the PM and his cronies get punished then so should the idiot telling the public she got to sit with her father while he died. after all she broke the law at the time. or do you want one rule for others? if you do then you must forgive the "party". sorry but i don't see a difference.
I see a difference between the situation with somebody dying in hospital or a care home and an unnecessary party. My sister was dying in a home last christmas , the family knew she was dying but we weren't allowed to see her.
We never got to see her again, she died in January.
The civil servants would have known the rules, a photograph shows them gathered together with some lying on the floor below the others. How can that have been observing the rules. Hold somebody to account.
How many people at that time were not allowed to see close relatives who were dying when these people were blatantly flouting the rules the government set ?
Biker Biggles
19-12-21, 10:25 AM
wow the media are not half milking this.
Would you rather the media covered it up?
Im glad we still have a media that can report stuff like this and rather than carp about it we should be defending their right to print critical news. That right is not set in stone and is always under threat.
Would you rather the media covered it up?
Im glad we still have a media that can report stuff like this and rather than carp about it we should be defending their right to print critical news. That right is not set in stone and is always under threat.
Exactly.
This isn't your Aunt Flo nipping round to Brenda's because they always play bridge on a Friday night. These were ministers that had set public rules to keep us safe which they blatantly ignored. If we cannot trust them to follow these simple (but important) safety instructions how can we trust them on anything?
We all need our faces rubbed in these news articles to remind us at voting time that we should look beyond the manifesto promises and look at past actions. (although in this case they have broken their manifesto promises too). The value of the press investigating government deceptions cannot be overstated.
i think there are more pressing issues that the media could shame the gov with. like say homelessness, poverty, children going without food due to the rising cost of living, the need for nurses to use food banks so on and so on. who gives a stuff about some bunch of morons having a party. lets talk about real issues but no they would rather (be told to) blow their horns about trivial matters.
your all being blind-sided....
svenrico. belated condolences.
Craig380
19-12-21, 01:49 PM
The thing is, homelessness, poverty, children going without food due to the rising cost of living, the need for nurses to use food banks and so on have been getting significantly worse over the past decade - a decade under Conservative prime ministers, who have all shirked the responsibility of doing anything about those issues.
If the supposedly trivial issues of the lockdown parties etc actually get the readers of traditional Tory-supporting media to realise what a bunch of spivs, crooks and lowlifes make up the Conservative government, then that could well be a driver of change.
Without it, people will still be saying the usual guff like "oh Boris is doing the best he can" and "I like him, he's a character."
The constituency in which I live is one of the safest Tory seats in the country, the MP is David Rutley, a Tory whip. So what difference does my vote make? B*gger all. But if traditional Tory voters get angry enough at "their" party's arrogance, sleaze and lies, maybe there will be a change.
i think there are more pressing issues that the media could shame the gov with. like say homelessness, poverty, children going without food due to the rising cost of living, the need for nurses to use food banks so on and so on. who gives a stuff about some bunch of morons having a party. lets talk about real issues but no they would rather (be told to) blow their horns about trivial matters.
your all being blind-sided....
svenrico. belated condolences.
You keep missing the point. If the media didn't scrutinise the government's actions then how would we ever know if they were dealing with the points you mention? It's all about trust. I have far less trust in this particular government than any previous ones.
Breaking rules over Xmas parties many seem trivial but add it to the list of what else they are doing (or trying to do)* and it paints an ugly picture of corruption, lies and deceit.
Obviously the points you mention are important but there's no "handle" to grab people's attention - but now show them something that is unfair because they are following the rules and the "elite" in power are not and outrage will ensue.
*Voter restriction through picture ids
Eliminate/reduce the right to protest
Repeal/reduce the effect of the Human Rights Act
Redistrict constituencies
Tear up previously negotiated agreements.
We need to be inspecting every single action of this government because of their lack of ethics and yet Boris is considered a moderate compared to Rees-Mogg or Steve Baker.
When the Tories took over from Labour 10 plus years ago childhood poverty was falling but within a year of Tory rule it started climbing, so much so that they tried to stop publishing the figures, this was illegal and required a law change - which was defeated. Iain Duncan Smith's brainchild, but it showed they wanted to hide the truth and here again, initially, they claimed no parties took place. Then their investigator proved to have broken the same rules...
So, in isolation, the parties debacle might seem trivial but it is part of a much bigger picture. People have a short attention span (how many migrants crossed the channel yesterday? anyone know or care?*) - but unfairness seems to hold their attention for longer.
*900 in last 2 days
Biker Biggles
19-12-21, 06:48 PM
i think there are more pressing issues that the media could shame the gov with. like say homelessness, poverty, children going without food due to the rising cost of living, the need for nurses to use food banks so on and so on. who gives a stuff about some bunch of morons having a party. lets talk about real issues but no they would rather (be told to) blow their horns about trivial matters.
your all being blind-sided....
svenrico. belated condolences.
It would be great if politics was decided on issues like you highlight but it isnt. All of the above were issues at the last election which Johnson won handsomely. He won because Labour were unable to put aside their ideological puritanism and the Tories ran a much better and professional campaign. "Corbyn is antisemetic" and "get Brexit done" were simple massages lapped up by the electorate. Now, "Boris is bent and so is his government" seems to be resonating rather better than the collected works of Marx and John Maynard Keynes. Thats life.
svenrico
19-12-21, 07:19 PM
On Boris Johnson, I will quote from an article by Patrick Cockburn in i weekend.
He is quoting something Rory Stuart wrote about Boris Johnson :-
Quote 'He has mastered the use of error, omission, exaggeration, diminution, equivocation and flat denial.
He has perfected casuistry, circumlocution, false equivalence and false analogy. He is equally adept at the ironic jest, the fib and the grand lie; the weasel word and the half truth; the hyperbolic lie, the obvious lie, and the bulls*it lie -which may inadvertently be true.' end of quote.
I don't pretend to understand all of those descriptions but Rory Stewart seems to have Boris Johnson weighed up !
the whole government is corrupt its just that the tories are open about it. its just as easy for them to be more secretive about their comings and goings. lets look at Blair and Brown administration with their lies and corruptions on behalf of the yanks and "terrorism" and what happened to them for that... ermm nowt.
garynortheast
20-12-21, 05:12 PM
And.....
https://www.thenational.wales/news/19795083.jamie-wallis-mp-arrested-suspicion-driving-whilst-unfit/?ref=ebln
Next!
And.....
https://www.thenational.wales/news/19795083.jamie-wallis-mp-arrested-suspicion-driving-whilst-unfit/?ref=ebln
Next!
what about all the disabled people who are unfit to drive but are allowed to every single day.... sounds like picking on an MP for the sake of it to me.
garynortheast
20-12-21, 05:31 PM
Disabled people generally are not in the business of telling me how I should live. This @r5ehole is.
And.....
https://www.thenational.wales/news/19795083.jamie-wallis-mp-arrested-suspicion-driving-whilst-unfit/?ref=ebln
Next!
... sounds like picking on an MP for the sake of it to me.
I'm closer to Bibio's PoV on this one - it does seem like it shouldn't be blown out of proportion. I think I'd be more worried if he wasn't arrested if there were suspicions after a serious accident like the one described. We should let process take its course.
Accidents happen, even to MPs. Of course, he's a cretin if he drunk-drove or similar and should be subjected to the same justice system as anyone else but expecting anyone to be perfect and impervious to making a mistake is setting the standard too high - it's unattainable.
As for the article, I'm still chuckling at the lamp post that's also "serves as a telegraph poll". High quality writing and proof-reading right there!:rolleyes: (Can I criticise the journalism in this instance, because undoubtedly it's still way way better than my Welsh?)
svenrico
21-12-21, 12:59 AM
what about all the disabled people who are unfit to drive but are allowed to every single day.... sounds like picking on an MP for the sake of it to me.
I assume disabled people will have to be passed fit to drive somehow, depending on their disability, by the DVLA .
As far as the Welsh MP is concerned ,he is being dealt with by the police following the traffic incident ,and he may well have Covid ,so not really a story.
svenrico
21-12-21, 01:02 AM
As for the article, I'm still chuckling at the lamp post that's also "serves as a telegraph poll". High quality writing and proof-reading right there!:rolleyes: (Can I criticise the journalism in this instance, because undoubtedly it's still way way better than my Welsh?)
What's wrong with telegraph pole, don't a lot of people still refer to 'telegraph poles '? :confused:
garynortheast
21-12-21, 07:24 AM
Spelling of telegraph "poll".
svenrico
21-12-21, 06:41 PM
Spelling of telegraph "poll".
I see, missed that.
Putting aside the seriousness of the political situation, this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkdqR4WKvuU&ab_channel=PoliticsJOE) made me smile just now? If we don't laugh, we'd only cry!
FkdqR4WKvuU
(Didn't think it was so good it needed a new thread of its own - we are a bike forum after all - but it seemed closely enough related to the original subject matter of this one. Hope that's OK.)
garynortheast
01-02-22, 11:21 AM
Excellent!
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