Russian army casulties

[garynortheast]

This is staggering. How long before the army decide they've had enough and turn on Putin.

Russian troops dead and injured. (https://metro.co.uk/2022/03/17/ukraine-up-to-28000-russian-troops-either-dead-wounded-or-captured-16295239/?ito=article.desktop.share.top.link)

[Luckypants]

Putin will say NATO is behind it all.

How long before he uses a tactical nuclear weapon or chemical weapons against the civilian population?

[garynortheast]

This is a constant worry.

[Bibio]

How long before he uses a tactical nuclear weapon or chemical weapons against the civilian population?

suppose thats one way to get rid of them.

i personally think Putin has a urine infection and causing him not to think straight.

[Craig380]

There has been a lot of speculation that Putin is on steroids for some ailment or other, and it's affecting his judgement ...

[svenrico]

This is staggering. How long before the army decide they've had enough and turn on Putin.

Russian troops dead and injured. (https://metro.co.uk/2022/03/17/ukraine-up-to-28000-russian-troops-either-dead-wounded-or-captured-16295239/?ito=article.desktop.share.top.link)
We can only hope.

[svenrico]

There has been a lot of speculation that Putin is on steroids for some ailment or other, and it's affecting his judgement ...

Putin is just a cu*t. He doesn't need any infection or ailment to act like he does, he is evil.
We can only hope the truth of what is really happening in Ukraine gets through to the Russian people, in spite of the censorship in Russia ,and they turn against Putin.

[Bibio]

Putin is just a cu*t. He doesn't need any infection or ailment to act like he does, he is evil.


just like the majority of people in power. Mugabe springs to mind, now that was a murdering nutjob and nothing was done about him slaughtering British formers and their family's including children and babies.. lets not forget what Bush and Blair done under false pretences.

but hey we in the west have been conditioned to believe that the ruskies are bad and not to be trusted. they could say the same about us.

its all a political game but the "people" always come out the worse of their games.

if politicians were all to be put in a ring to fight it out we would all be speaking Russian. Putin is a tough, intelligent and rich individual who has clawed his way up the ranks himself so give the man some credit.

[embee]

..... Putin is a tough, intelligent and rich individual who has clawed his way up the ranks himself so give the man some credit.

Adolf Hitler was a reasonably accomplished artist, vegetarian, looked after his dogs, skilled orator. What's not to like?

[Bibio]

Adolf Hitler was a reasonably accomplished artist, vegetarian, looked after his dogs, skilled orator. What's not to like?

not even close.....

how long ago was it the Russians sailed their aircraft carrier past the UK? we never seemed to mind the Putin or the Russians then...

do i condone what Putin is doing NO as i'm a peace loving person but boys will play with their toys. its just that Putin has a lot of BIG toys.

i personally think what the west is doing to Russian bank accounts and media is despicable.

lies and propaganda is everywhere........... on both sides................

[svenrico]

Putin is a tough, intelligent and rich individual who has clawed his way up the ranks himself so give the man some credit.

I can't believe you are saying that when we see every day on tv what he is doing in Ukraine shelling and destroying towns and murdering civilians.

[svenrico]

not even close.....
how long ago was it the Russians sailed their aircraft carrier past the UK? we never seemed to mind the Putin or the Russians then...
do i condone what Putin is doing NO as i'm a peace loving person but boys will play with their toys. its just that Putin has a lot of BIG toys.
i personally think what the west is doing to Russian bank accounts and media is despicable.
lies and propaganda is everywhere........... on both sides................
Sanctions are the alternative to going to war with Russia and risk madman Putin starting a world war and obliterating us all.
Do you believe the blatant lying propaganda put out by Putin and his lying foreign secretary. If it wasn't so serious the things they come out with would be just taking the p*ss.

[svenrico]

but hey we in the west have been conditioned to believe that the ruskies are bad and not to be trusted. they could say the same about us.
The Russian state is bad ,not all Russian people.
its all a political game but the "people" always come out the worse of their games.
Bit more than just a political game in Ukraine, but yes, the people do come off worst.

if politicians were all to be put in a ring to fight it out we would all be speaking Russian. Putin is a tough, intelligent and rich individual who has clawed his way up the ranks himself so give the man some credit.
And how do you think Putin got all his money ?

[Bibio]

war and murder is happening all over the world. in places like Africa they are butchering each other with machetes this includes hanging babies up like a pinata and cutting them to bits but do you hear about that in the media.... NO. but we are all picking on the Russians.. why? simple answer is media and selling weapons. if it was not so overblown and all over the media then we would not be going so mad about it.

i may seem like i'm uncompassionate but nothing could be further from the truth and i would love nothing more then the world at peace and everyone get along but thats never going to happen but i live in hope.

lets face facts, whats the worst that would happen if the Ukraine surrendered and joined Russia.. nothing apart from a power change. things would go on just as they did but they would be part of Russia. so would it not be in the best interest of Ukraine to surrender for the sake of its people or do they want the bloodshed to keep happening. its the politicians that dont want to give up power and war is always about politicians/monarchy.

[Ruffy]

war and murder is happening all over the world. in places like Africa they are butchering each other with machetes this includes hanging babies up like a pinata and cutting them to bits but do you hear about that in the media.... NO. but we are all picking on the Russians.. why? simple answer is media and selling weapons. if it was not so overblown and all over the media then we would not be going so mad about it.
The difference is the national context for the conflicts. In Africa, it has tended to be "tribes" fighting each other within, or ignoring, national borders, whereas Russia as a nation has attacked another nation. The international 'rules' are only set up to support the existing national boundaries and the media tends to follow national governance structures because that's where the rules are set that enable them to be profitable.

lets face facts, whats the worst that would happen if the Ukraine surrendered and joined Russia.. nothing apart from a power change. things would go on just as they did but they would be part of Russia. so would it not be in the best interest of Ukraine to surrender for the sake of its people or do they want the bloodshed to keep happening.

Let's face facts, what's the worst that could happen if Scotland surrendered and joined England...? Bibio, do you dispute that many of your countrymen would be appalled at that? (I'm just using simple substitution.) Or is it just your 'leader'?

Alternatively: Let's face facts, what's the worst that could happen if Russia surrendered and left Ukraine alone...? Again a straightforward substitution and surely an equally straightforward way to end the conflict?

The problem is getting consensus on what is the best outcome out of a change: Status quo or new arrangement?

its the politicians that dont want to give up power and war is always about politicians/monarchy.
On this I agree with you in general. I would add that war mostly seems to be about control/money nowadays. Having said that I do think there's a place for making a stand from time to time based on principles and values. Sadly, though, elected representatives have often become far too detached from the reality of who they serve so it's difficult for many to discern what those principles and values are.

[svenrico]

war and murder is happening all over the world. in places like Africa they are butchering each other with machetes this includes hanging babies up like a pinata and cutting them to bits but do you hear about that in the media.... NO. but we are all picking on the Russians.. why? simple answer is media and selling weapons. if it was not so overblown and all over the media then we would not be going so mad about it.

i may seem like i'm uncompassionate but nothing could be further from the truth and i would love nothing more then the world at peace and everyone get along but thats never going to happen but i live in hope.

lets face facts, whats the worst that would happen if the Ukraine surrendered and joined Russia.. nothing apart from a power change. things would go on just as they did but they would be part of Russia. so would it not be in the best interest of Ukraine to surrender for the sake of its people or do they want the bloodshed to keep happening. its the politicians that dont want to give up power and war is always about politicians/monarchy.
I doubt whether things would go on just as they did, millions of Ukrainians have already been displaced and we don't now what further atrocities the Russians would carry out against the Ukrainians if Ukraine became part of the Russian Federation. They might not let the refugees who have fled back into Ukraine for all we know. The war should stop by the Russians withdrawing, paying reparations for all the damage they have caused and Putin and others being tried for war crimes.
Whatever happens, assuming we all survive, I hope the world never forgets what the Russians are doing in Ukraine.

[svenrico]

The Independent
Voices: Putin’s next task will be the Russianisation of Ukraine – he has only just begun the horrors
Sean O'Grady 9 hrs ago
One of the most disturbing of developments in Ukraine in recent days – admittedly of many barbarities and atrocities – has been the claim by Mariupol Town Council that thousands of its citizens have been forcibly taken from there to Russia.
Bombing has destroyed a shopping centre in Kyiv - REUTERS© REUTERS
Bombing has destroyed a shopping centre in Kyiv
- REUTERS
This is not been completely independently verified by reliable news sources, and it is difficult to do so, but it is sadly plausible. The propaganda value of hungry Ukrainians fleeing supposed neo-Nazi persecution is obvious.
Mostly women, children and old folk, you’d imagine the traumatised exiles of Mariupol are headed for camps and may never go home; as far as we know there is no programme in Russia for people’s homes to be opened up for the refugees; not least because the bombed-out refugees might start spreading the truth about war crimes.
In the grand scale of the 10 million or so Ukrainians displaced from the homes, the expulsion from Mariupol is a relatively small number. The wider significance lies in what it may tell us about Russian intentions towards those parts of Ukraine it occupies or may continue to occupy during and after the war. It may herald the destruction of Ukraine as a recognisable state. And, more to the point, the west will do precisely nothing militarily to prevent it.
The fear is that Russia will inflict on Ukraine what was called during the Tsarist and Soviet eras “Russification” and “Russianisation”. This means the forcible transformation of a whole region via social and cultural changes, favouring the Russian language, state ideology, religion and way of life.
The most potent weapon was a combination of compulsory deportation of troublesome indigenous peoples and their replacement through state-sponsored migration of a large population of ethnic Russians. The aim was to change the whole character of the a region, supposedly cementing the area inside the Russian/Soviet empire.
If Putin wants to set up Russianised puppet “people’s republics” states in the south and east of Ukraine, or join them into the Russian Federation, this is one method he could deploy. Along with vote-rigging and propaganda, a large transfer of population would secure a pro-Putin majority in any referendum, and legitimatise the dismemberment of Ukraine. In due course it would leave Ukraine at best as a rump state – landlocked, almost surrounded by Russian satellites, permanently menaced by Russia – with many hundreds of thousands of its citizens effectively held hostage in Russia.
How many of the three million Ukrainians, overwhelmingly women and children, will Putin allow back into Ukraine if he wins this war? We assume they’ll be allowed back, to be with their husbands, sons and brothers – but will they? They might be regarded by the Kremlin as unpatriotic renegades and “neo-Nazis”, and the west can have them. They could be replaced by Russians looking for a new life, with land and homes promised to them in new territories controlled by the Kremlin. Language, art, culture – all would be diluted through Russification. Ukrainians would be facing something adjacent to genocide.

[embee]

.... whats the worst that would happen ....

I'll go off at a slight parallel, but something I feel strongly and passionately about.
There is one big, huge, difference between the UK and the rest of mainland Europe. The UK has not been occupied (in the last millenium).

I've spent quite a bit of time in Europe over the years, working and social, and have met and made friends with quite a few people of different generations.
I have a good friend in Hungary, his mother came out of Auschwitz as a teenager at the end of WW2.
There are plaques and stones dotted around France listing names of 19 and 20yr old resistance fighters who were rounded up and shot in the village square. There are concentration camps, not just the big name ones, sitting in countryside in the Ardennes. Picardy is littered with tens of thousands of graves in carefully tended cemeteries. Near the Pyrenees there are memorial stones listing names of Jews who were taken and giving their fates, shot while escaping, deported to concentration camps, died under torture. Oradour-sur-glane is a preserved ruined village in France where civilians were rounded up into a church and blown up, burned, shot, a total of 642 village folk died.

Here in the UK we don't get it. We don't understand what it is about. Apologies for mentioning the Brexit word, but the whole "raison d'etre" of the EU is to prevent a repeat of the previous horrors. People in Europe remember and don't want to go back there. The EU is a union of peoples, many folk in the UK saw it as something "done to us" rather than something we were "a member of". That reflects the lack of understanding of occupation. Johnson's comments drawing parallels between Ukraine's (Ukraine, not "the Ukraine") current fight for freedom from occupation and the UK referendum to leave the EU shows how he has no concept of what freedom, or oppression, actually means. He thinks having straight bananas (such inventions as he made up while working for the Times as EU journalist before being sacked for lying) is oppression. I had the freedom to travel, work, live in the EU along with the other EU members, now I don't. I don't see it as freedom, but that's another issue.

I'm sure Bibio is being genuine in his comments, but we need to try to see the world from a different perspective, the UK view is not only introvert and sheltered but it sometimes creeps into the realms of nationalism, jingoism, popularism, even bigotry and xenophobia, summed up in the "little Britain" mentality that "we" are somehow better than "them". When we ruled India we didn't have damned foreigners telling us what to do. Strangely the Indians did.

The Berlin wall stood for just 28yrs, it was a short lived aberration, but it represented an ongoing hatred and brutality, insecurity and oppression. Let's not go back there.

https://media.istockphoto.com/photos/ukraine-flag-waving-picture-id1362736360?b=1&k=20&m=1362736360&s=170667a&w=0&h=TtOgClPIiuYRAJNHUD-jzR-hzGcvg9Iyby0J0QAmihA=

[Luckypants]

Well said.

[garynortheast]

Very well put Embee. That sums up very well what I and quite a few others feel I think.

[svenrico]

Embee,
Leaving aside Johnson's comments and the EU, we might not have been invaded for many years but do understand what being occupied means and most are against Russia's invasion of Ukraine and understand what it means and don't want to go back to the days of the old soviet union and Berlin wall and all that meant. Although not occupied by another country Britain knew to fight for the freedom of Europe in the world wars, so I don't accept all your criticisms of this country.
ps what is more nationalistic, jingoistic, bigoted and xenophobic than Putin's propaganda ?!

[svenrico]

Very well put Embee. That sums up very well what I and quite a few others feel I think.
Not entirely, preaching to us in this country about the atrocities of Nazi Germany doesn't seem right to me. That's what this country fought against.

[embee]

My comments were in direct reply to Bibio's proposals about "the" Ukraine just giving in, surrendering to the aggresion of the dictator who you (svenrico) so rightly point out has horrific ethics. His line was "what's the worst that could happen" as though they just say OK, we give in, then everything is back to normal and off down the pub for a swift half. It's not like that, and most of mainland Europe know in glorious technicolour what occupation by an authoritarian aggressor means.
My comments were to point out that we (mostly) in the UK don't have that direct experience, we haven't stood and watched hundreds and thousands of Jews being rounded up and beaten to death with clubs or marched out into the woods and shot in a pit. The eastern Europeans have. They lived, and died, with it for years.

There is a view, particularly in England (as opposed to the other countries of the UK) that we are different to others. We're not, we just haven't been through some of the same sh*t up close and personal. Veterans of war usually have a slightly different take.

I'm sorry if my passion about such things gets in your way, it's a consequence of getting old. I just feel that we in the UK tend to sympathise but can't truly empathise. WW2 didn't mean the same thing here as in, for example, Poland or Hungary. I live near Coventry, it was bombed, 554 known casualties and some unaccounted for. A bomb dropped about 50 yards from where I sit at home today. But we didn't have Nazi soldiers and SS troops summarily executing people outside in the street.

I am truly embarrased and ashamed about the way the UK govt is dealing with the refugee application process. Hearing first hand experiences of UK folk trying to negotiate the bureaucratic nightmare set up to get refugees over here is cringeworthy. And of course it's all in English .....
A news reporter the other day said they had gone along the Ukraine border (Poland, Hungary, others??) and just down the road from the crossings were official government stations with people to help the refugees, representing 19 different countries. Not a single UK representative.

At least we're giving them some weapons.

I've probably said more than enough.

[svenrico]

Embee ,
I understand your point that we in this country haven't experienced directly some of the horrors we are taking about but I don't see why you then go on to say we in England in particular think we are different to others.
There were plenty of 'little Englanders' who went onto the beaches of Normandy to fight in Europe.
This country hasn't invaded Ukraine.
I am sorry if I misunderstand what you are saying ,I just think the criticism should be directed elsewhere, which in this case is the ba*ta*d Russians.

[embee]

I take your points.

As for the "little Englander" dig, it's just a bugbear of mine I'm afraid, I know plenty of them including family members. One family member loathes Europeans even though they have never been to any other European country and as far as I am aware they don't know any continental people, not much you can do with that sort of attitude.
The term refers to an attitude not a nationality, I doubt many of those arriving at the Normandy beaches in WW2 were "little Englanders", in fact the majority weren't Englanders at all.

In no way would I criticise anyone who has defended freedom, especially since I have never been in that position so my moral high ground is somewhat shaky.

[embee]

Embee ,
....I just think the criticism should be directed elsewhere, which in this case is the ba*ta*d Russians.

I'll just make one last response on this, to be absolutely clear.

I think my drawing parallels between Putin's actions and those of Hitler's Nazi regime in WW2 satisfy your thoughts. My specific criticism was prompted by the suggestion by others that Ukraine should perhaps just give in and acquiesce to the Putin aggression.
I take it you don't agree with that proposition either, we are broadly on the same page I think. :D

[svenrico]

I'll just make one last response on this, to be absolutely clear.

I think my drawing parallels between Putin's actions and those of Hitler's Nazi regime in WW2 satisfy your thoughts. My specific criticism was prompted by the suggestion by others that Ukraine should perhaps just give in and acquiesce to the Putin aggression.
I take it you don't agree with that proposition either, we are broadly on the same page I think. :D

I may have misunderstood you previously. You are right, I don't agree with the suggestion that Ukraine should just give in and things would just go back to how they were. :)

[embee]

:thumright:

[Bibio]

face facts Putin is not going to give in or at lest any time soon.... surrendering will save lives, is that not what is most important or do you wish to see more slaughter of innocent lives and the possibility of things escalating into a MAD?

there can only be two outcomes too the situation in the Ukraine. 1. Putin wins. 2. Putin looses interest. well there is a third but it unlikely that Ukraine win as they are all running away. when this conflict is all over are the Ukrainians going to return home???????

lets face facts here. Putin is the President of Russia just now but who is to say that he will still be there is 10 years and the new President will have a different view. to which negotiations might arise. everyone is about the NOW not what might/could be. civilisations rise and fall, its what happens.

Russia has invaded other countries in the past so why is everyone getting their knickers in a twist about it now? media... thats how. the Russian conflict with Afghanistan cost the lives of an estimated 0.5-2mil people. do we really want to see that happen again?

the ironic thing is that after helping the Afghans the UK and America both went in and had a conflict under the guise of fighting the Taliban... or was it more to the fact that they owed us money for weapons we sold them during the Russian war with them.

BTW if say the Chinese invaded Scotland tomorrow we would surrender. why? well simple there is 1000 of them to one of us and they have a lot more weapons. would i be happy about it.. dont know till it happens and the circumstances it brings. after all Scotland is ruled by England. also Wales was concurred but do they moan about being British.

life goes on.

btw i condemn all war. but i would never resort to calling the leader of a country a BAS***D or C**NT due to their actions. we all have to remember that the UK done its fair share or murdering people back in the day so "pot.. black"...... time is no excuse....

[Seeker]

face facts Putin is not going to give in or at lest any time soon.... surrendering will save lives, is that not what is most important or do you wish to see more slaughter of innocent lives and the possibility of things escalating into a MAD?

there can only be two outcomes too the situation in the Ukraine. 1. Putin wins. 2. Putin looses interest. well there is a third but it unlikely that Ukraine win as they are all running away. when this conflict is all over are the Ukrainians going to return home???????

lets face facts here. Putin is the President of Russia just now but who is to say that he will still be there is 10 years and the new President will have a different view. to which negotiations might arise. everyone is about the NOW not what might/could be. civilisations rise and fall, its what happens.

Russia has invaded other countries in the past so why is everyone getting their knickers in a twist about it now? media... thats how. the Russian conflict with Afghanistan cost the lives of an estimated 0.5-2mil people. do we really want to see that happen again?

the ironic thing is that after helping the Afghans the UK and America both went in and had a conflict under the guise of fighting the Taliban... or was it more to the fact that they owed us money for weapons we sold them during the Russian war with them.

BTW if say the Chinese invaded Scotland tomorrow we would surrender. why? well simple there is 1000 of them to one of us and they have a lot more weapons. would i be happy about it.. dont know till it happens and the circumstances it brings. after all Scotland is ruled by England. also Wales was concurred but do they moan about being British.

life goes on.

btw i condemn all war. but i would never resort to calling the leader of a country a BAS***D or C**NT due to their actions. we all have to remember that the UK done its fair share or murdering people back in the day so "pot.. black"...... time is no excuse....

Well, I disagree with this in its entirety.

Assuming this is what you truly believe, what would be your red line? Assuming Putin takes Ukraine which, despite your claims of the Ukrainians "running away" is not what I'm reading, women and children are leaving but men between 18 and 60 are not allowed to leave anyway. Not only that but recent reports suggest the Ukrainians are retaking land back in a couple of areas.

So, back to your red line assuming Putin takes Ukraine. How many more countries would you allow him to take? Ask him to stop when he reaches the Atlantic coast?

He has publically stated that Ukraine isn't a real country but still part of the Russian empire and uses the fact that there are many Russian speakers as partial justification of his current actions (to prevent the "genocide" of the Russian speakers). He used similar lines when he annexed part of Georgia and again in Crimea.

Putin has altered Russia's constitution such that he can remain in power indefinitely, prior to that it was two terms only. If you recall, he served two terms, then switched to prime minister whilst his protege Medvedev took the reigns and then returned to power. He has been trying to rehabilitate Stalin, his hero (ignoring the millions he killed) and would like to reunify the Soviet Union after he called its break up "the great geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century." The implication is that none of the old Soviet bloc states are safe unless he is stopped.

The only way he can win this is to level every Ukrainian city and/or use nuclear/chemical/biological weapons. I suspect he will want some kind of deal by May 1st (since it was an important USSR celebration) whether it be a victory or a face-saving fudge remains to be seen.

[Bibio]

we all have our views.

but tell me this. do you want to see more bloodshed? if not then tell me the answer to stop the fighting..... do you want to see our troops come home in body bags? no, then i suggest that the UK stays the fuk out of it.

i have no "red line" its politicians that have them. its politicians that wage war. if war was down to a vote of the people there would be no or very very little war.

am i appalled at what is going on in the Ukraine.. fuk yes.. what has it got to do with me... sod all apart from being human and sympathy.

if it comes down to Putin levelling cities then he will and there is nothing we can do about it as it would be an act of war which will spark MAD. do you want that?

its a war between Russia and the Ukraine......... and until different then we all need to let them get on with it.

[Seeker]

we all have our views.

but tell me this. do you want to see more bloodshed? if not then tell me the answer to stop the fighting..... do you want to see our troops come home in body bags?

I would prefer not to see more bloodshed. However, I believe some things are worth fighting for and this is one such.
I was in the RAF which was a great way to get tech training but I accepted that I would have had to fight if told to do so (and I knew I would be fodder). Our base didn't have exercises but we travelled to bases that had regular tacevals (tactical evaluations) in anticipation of fighting the USSR.

Ignoring Ukraine means that sooner or later it's likely we would be next.

[Ruffy]

Ignoring Ukraine means that sooner or later it's likely we would be next.
Reinforcing this point of view, many say that we are now seeing the consequences of ignoring the previous action against Crimea. So, the modus operandi is already clear and visible ...

[svenrico]

BTW if say the Chinese invaded Scotland tomorrow we would surrender. why? well simple there is 1000 of them to one of us and they have a lot more weapons. would i be happy about it.. dont know till it happens and the circumstances it brings. after all Scotland is ruled by England. Scotland ruled by England ?! also Wales was concurred but do they moan about being British.

life goes on. not in Ukraine for a lot of people !

btw i condemn all war. but i would never resort to calling the leader of a country a BAS***D or C**NT due to their actions. Why not ? I am sure a lot of people would shoot the BAS***D if they could for what he id doing in Ukraine
Please see my comments in green above.

[svenrico]

I would prefer not to see more bloodshed. However, I believe some things are worth fighting for and this is one such.
I was in the RAF which was a great way to get tech training but I accepted that I would have had to fight if told to do so (and I knew I would be fodder). Our base didn't have exercises but we travelled to bases that had regular tacevals (tactical evaluations) in anticipation of fighting the USSR.

Ignoring Ukraine means that sooner or later it's likely we would be next.

Exactly, Putin will walk in to countries that aren't in Nato at least if he can. Bombarding civilian areas to force refugees to flee is part of his strategy. He wants to destabilise Europe.

[svenrico]

Reinforcing this point of view, many say that we are now seeing the consequences of ignoring the previous action against Crimea. So, the modus operandi is already clear and visible ...
Exactly, as others have said ,Putin would like to recreate the old USSR. He will invade as many European countries as he is allowed to. From what he has said he has basically threatened to start a world war if anybody tries to stop him.
I don't know what the answer is but he has to be stopped somehow.