View Full Version : why does my rear wheel keep locking?
am i just an inexperienced "crap" rider?
but my rear wheel has locked on me several times, each time when i've changed down. am i just coming off the clutch too fast, both travelling too fast AND releasing the lever too fast, or something more sinister?
i was traveling at about 55mph , changed down to 3rd or 2nd, (can't remember) the revs didnt go any higher than 8,000 (i dont think) but the wheel locked up momentraily and i had a lovely little wobble which i didnt much enjoy! altho it may have looked good, i'd like to do it when I want to do it in future!
as i said i may just be a crap rider and it happen all the time, but i fear it shouldnt happen!
thanks in advance for your criticisms, your advise and any general help you may all be!
Itching 2 go
17-08-04, 10:37 AM
are you blipping the throttle?, balancing the revs out when you change gear ? i used to do this a lot till some one told me about blipping, now my gear changes are a million times better
are you blipping the throttle?, balancing the revs out when you change gear ? i used to do this a lot till some one told me about blipping, now my gear changes are a million times better
no, i'm not blipping. i've read or been told that blipping helps make changes down smoother, as i mentioned i just reckon i may be letting the clutch out too fast....
no, i'm not blipping. i've read or been told that blipping helps make changes down smoother, as i mentioned i just reckon i may be letting the clutch out too fast....
Letting it out slowly will wear/heat the clutch.
"Blipping" is the way to go on down-shifts :thumbsup:
Either blip the throttle or don't be so quick with downchanges.. :lol:
Logie bear
17-08-04, 11:02 AM
Practice makes perfect, use your brake more and save all the changing down when you are not going that fast but do give the throttle a blip once you have the clutch in and are about to let go.
After a while it becomes second nature, and if you have a loud pipe you will start to enjoy the rumbles, pops and bangs on the over run.
Ride safe
Sean.
Learn to blip, (Something I still have to do), or let the engine revs fall more before shifting down. 8000 revs is towards the end of the "sweetspot" on my bike, so no point shifting down at this point anyway IMHO!
during my debreif - my instructor kept asking me why i kept reving the bike when slowing down.
i said that for some reason - it seems to make downchanges smoother.
he said that you only need to do it on 2 strokes .
i didnt understand personally :?:
during my debreif - my instructor kept asking me why i kept reving the bike when slowing down.
i said that for some reason - it seems to make downchanges smoother.
he said that you only need to do it on 2 strokes .
i didnt understand personally :?:
:compcrash:
the v-twin engine brake effect and too higher revs on downshift will cause this, although it used to happen on my zzr600 when the chain was a bit loose as well.
Slenver
17-08-04, 12:31 PM
You didn't mention it at all, but I assume you're not using the rear brake as you're changing down?
Exactly the same thing used to happen to me, but was soon sorted when the art of blipping was explained to me :)
It'll still happen ocassionally when I'm being too eager with the ol' downshifting, and is definitely a pant-wetting experience!! :shock:
Blip blip and blip again....
Learn to blip and you could be on the journey to being a riding god. :lol:
Learn to blip and you could be on the journey to being a riding god. :lol:
I'd like to learn to blip, but as with everything I don't want to get it wrong and take a spill... :lol:
How far do u blip it? Do u drop the clutch at the blip or let it out as normal?
Learn to blip and you could be on the journey to being a riding god. :lol:
I'd like to learn to blip, but as with everything I don't want to get it wrong and take a spill... :lol:
How far do u blip it? Do u drop the clutch at the blip or let it out as normal?
As you want to change down gear blip throttle clutch in down gear clutch out its a matter of timing.
the v-twin engine brake effect and too higher revs on downshift will cause this, although it used to happen on my zzr600 when the chain was a bit loose as well.
chain loose was one thing i didn't mention. i think i've a bit too much play in mine, i can take it off the rear cog without tools. ok ok ok i made that bit up, but there's probably about 1 1/2 " movement. too much? the hand book reckons 1.2" max...
when i pul the clutch in , give it a little rev - miminal ammount -
as the rev counter peaks and is on its way down - pull the clutch out
.
after a while - when pulling the clutch out you will be able to keep the rev counter steady.
its easier on a 125 than a 600 btw
the v-twin engine brake effect and too higher revs on downshift will cause this, although it used to happen on my zzr600 when the chain was a bit loose as well.
chain loose was one thing i didn't mention. i think i've a bit too much play in mine, i can take it off the rear cog without tools. ok ok ok i made that bit up, but there's probably about 1 1/2 " movement. too much? the hand book reckons 1.2" max...
too loose i recon.
i had my chain come off the 125 when cornering - its not good to lose power on a corner-
should be able to pull it half way off the sprockets.
too much and its too lose
I don't understand why "blipping" should only apply to strokers when its all about matching engine speed to road speed. What difference does the engine stoke matter?
I don't understand why "blipping" should only apply to strokers when its all about matching engine speed to road speed. What difference does the engine stoke matter?
havent a clue mate - i didnt understand it either.
reason was that on the 125 when cold - if you didnt keep the revs high enough - it could cut out.
If you don't plip,then keep the rev's below 5,000 for every down ward gear change. :wink:
If you don't plip,then keep the rev's below 5,000 for every down ward gear change. :wink:
isn't that slightly dull though? 8)
although it would appear that would cure my problem!!
It would cure your problem and it's certainly dull.
The reason the blip takes place is to match the engine revs to that of the gearbox idler gears, it's not related to the clutch at all. It's very similiar to "double declutching" in a car except that a bike has a sequential gearbox and doesn't need neutral to be engaged, hence no need to engage and disengage the clutch twice.
When the two speeds are matched then the power is transferred smoothly and evenly allowing the final drive to turn the rear wheel without a huge tug and tussle which is why it locks up if you don't do this.
In fact you don't even need the clutch to blip and downchange, however you have to get it precisely right. ;)
As for being unsure whether you have enough, too liitle or too many revs, experimentation will solve this. Certainly the bike won't spit you off if you blip but can certainly do so in some situations if you don't (e.g. trying to change down from second to first at 10,000 rpm!).
My advice is to go for a ride with someone who fully understands the mechanics involved and let them show you. With an inline four it's not that necessary but with a twin it's essential.
.
why does my rear wheel keep locking?
take the chain off :wink: :lol: :lol:
why does my rear wheel keep locking?
take the chain off :wink: :lol: :lol:
but surely the bike wont move then ? unless you live on a really big hill
](*,)
Maybe if you take a long ride off a short pier mate :? :lol:
Maybe if you take a long ride off a short pier mate :? :lol:
:riding:
mabe
Maybe if you take a long ride off a short pier mate :? :lol:
wont i get wet?
Since fitting the power commander blipping is not as essential as the rear wheel rarely locks now.
aftermarket can will also reduce exhaust restrictions and therefore engine braking
Hmm, I would have thought the opposite.
.
Logie bear
17-08-04, 05:57 PM
If you think about accellerating thru the gears, the revs rise then when you change up, the revs fall due to the different size of gears then you accellerate again etc.
So apply the opposite when you are coming down thru the gear box, for every change down the revs must rise to match road speed/engine speed because of the different ratio of the gears, so to give the engine a blip, especially with v twins with the more excessive engine braking, helps match the revs to engine speed/road speed.
two strokes have no engine braking so you use the brakes more as there is no engine braking effect.
Hope this helps
ride safe.
Sean.
northwind
17-08-04, 08:46 PM
Aftermarket can doesn't make that much difference, I was sliding the rear all over tonight... Blipping's as easy as clutchless changes- it's the same idea- and it's not likely to make you crash practicing... Most of the skids you get from engine braking sort themselves out pretty quickly.
Oh aye, engine braking won't make you lock the rear unless you stall entirely, all it'll do is drag the rear, causing a slide. It shouldn't lock completely, which is why it's so much more controllable than a rear brake lock.
i was traveling at about 55mph , changed down to 3rd or 2nd, (can't remember) the revs didnt go any higher than 8,000 (i dont think) but the wheel locked up momentraily.
I wouldn't bother with down changes at that speed or anywheree near those RPM. Ride the mid-range and practise good throttle control.
Chain tension is essential for smooth gear changes.
A throttle 'blip' before changing down should be quite small, somewhere along the lines of 500rpm matching engine and road speed for the appropriate gear.
Downchanging should be smooth and allow the engine braking time to settle the bike before going down another gear.
Don't load the engine, by downchanging, too much for slowing the bike, that's what brakes/closed throttle are for.
Blipping on 2 strokes? Hah! They don't have any engine braking, that's why the guys in GP just bang down through the gears when approaching corners and why slipper clutches are the standard in Moto GP.
The bit where you need to really practice is blipping the throttle while braking and downchanging. It takes a bit of practice to keep it smooth but feels really good when it is right.
Just reiterating that the purpose of the brakes is to slow/stop the bike (decelerator if you will) and the engine/throttle to accelerate.
Just downchange at the right time to keep the engine smack bang in the midrange so you can access all that lovely torque and rev it through on exiting the corner etc.
Blipping on 2 strokes? Hah! They don't have any engine braking, that's why the guys in GP just bang down through the gears when approaching corners and why slipper clutches are the standard in Moto GP.
The bit where you need to really practice is blipping the throttle while braking and downchanging. It takes a bit of practice to keep it smooth but feels really good when it is right.
Just reiterating that the purpose of the brakes is to slow/stop the bike (decelerator if you will) and the engine/throttle to accelerate.
Just downchange at the right time to keep the engine smack bang in the midrange so you can access all that lovely torque and rev it through on exiting the corner etc.
cheers peter, and cheers to everybody else who's answered.
i think i just need to ride more, keep practising, get used to blipping, don't change down with too high revs...
oh and tighten my chain a tad!
when i passed my test my instructor said to me "now you can go out and learn how to ride. you never stop learning"
very true it would appear!
Cans have no effect on engine braking :?: :?:
Ibanez7779
18-08-04, 11:02 AM
Blipping will become a habit after a while.
I didn't know what it was called until now, nor did I know the reason for it but now I find that I have to concentrate on NOT blippin when changing down, it feels wrong not too.
Sometimes when travelling through a built up areas whilst trying to keep the noise from the can to a minimum I have to remind myself to try not to blip when changing down.
It has become a natural part of riding, expecially on a twin where I find the gear changes rather clunky.
Damoulianos Marios
18-08-04, 07:13 PM
Hello to all, I just came back from vacation, having made more than 1200 miles on the SV. Chicken strip on fron tyre reduced to 1cm in the process :D
I wonder why for so many people is this "moving" of the bike is so disconcerting when downshifting. Look at Supermotard: What the guys in supermotard do is downshift, release the clutch, and the back end goes out all the way to the apex. You can see also some MotoGP riders do it (to a less extent), most notably Rossi. It is a mistake to say that the rear wheel "locks" during the downshift as it does not, it is simply spinning with a speed less that the actual speed of the bike. This kind of sliding is almost impossible to take you out of control, unless you panick.
When I had a trailie bike I was trying to mimic what the supermoto guys are doing and found out that getting the back out durin turn-in by downshifting can be great fun and can give much satisfaction.
Admittedly, it cannot be done as well with a street bike but It is still enjoyable nonetheless....
mistake to say the wheel locks???? The wheel does lock, as in stops spinning......
When I have seen it happen, the wheel has locked....maybe a different thing, but the original post was complaining of it locking up. gp bikes and stuff and latest sports bikes use slipper clutches for this very reason, so the rear doesn't lock up on strong braking and downshifting.
Just thought i'd throw in my 2 cents on blipping, it's exactly like heal toeing in cages, not really needed for everyday riding but essential if you want to go really fast. Like on a bike, if you fail to heal toe on a downshift with a meaty engine you can fully lock the rear wheels and spin yourself out.
I used to healtoe in everyday driving until my foot slipped off the brake (as you have to have your foot between the brake and gas) and i nearly rear ended someone. Now i just do it if i'm out for a country drive :)
The pedal arrangement on most cars makes heal & toeing very difficult if nigh impossible I find - operating three pedals at the same time ain't easy with just two feet but immensely satisfying when it works ;)
.
I had a rally prepared sierra I could do it with, as it had a set of rally/racing pedals.
Cloggsy
19-08-04, 10:50 AM
:shock: I don't blip... But then again I have a considerable amount of weight over the rear wheel :oops:
Seriously, I just let the clutch out slowly & my bike behaves itself :wink:
Flamin_Squirrel
19-08-04, 12:55 PM
:shock: I don't blip... But then again I have a considerable amount of weight over the rear wheel :oops:
Seriously, I just let the clutch out slowly & my bike behaves itself :wink:
Same. I cant get the hang of blipping the throttle while gripping the brake :?
northwind
19-08-04, 01:35 PM
When I have seen it happen, the wheel has locked....maybe a different thing, but the original post was complaining of it locking up. gp bikes and stuff and latest sports bikes use slipper clutches for this very reason, so the rear doesn't lock up on strong braking and downshifting.
Well, engine braking absolutely will not lock the rear while the engine's turning, and unless the clutch is in, you can't lock the rear for any length of time without stalling- I'm talking moments, not even seconds. It's possible to get an extremely slow spin- I've gone from 30mph to idle speed in first, and that's pretty close to locking, but it's as close as engine braking will ever get you to locking.
its getting abit too technical now....I did say braking and downshifting..in that bit...probably said engine braking caused it earlier tho... :shock: :D
wheelnut
16-10-04, 08:35 PM
Try a California Suberbike day.
Part of the exercises you had to do before being allowed out on track was blipping whilst braking and rolling your fingers over the throttle and braking with 1 or 2 fingers.
I found toe and heeling in my beetle (classic shape) very easy if not unavoidable due to the pedals being so damn close together :lol: :lol: :lol:
chazzyb
16-10-04, 08:54 PM
I had my first 'off' on a bike (BSA Starfire) by locking the back wheel in the wet on a down change in a mini-roundabout . Taught me a lesson about clutch use very early on.
Oh, and I remember two-stroke GP bikes blipping on down-changes - it almost sounded like a whip being cracked.
I found toe and heeling in my beetle (classic shape) very easy if not unavoidable due to the pedals being so damn close together :lol: :lol: :lol:
my car's only got 2 pedals so not a problem :wink:
I found toe and heeling in my beetle (classic shape) very easy if not unavoidable due to the pedals being so damn close together :lol: :lol: :lol:
my car's only got 2 pedals so not a problem :wink:
Lazy sod :!: :wink: :lol:
21QUEST
16-10-04, 11:21 PM
Oh aye, engine braking won't make you lock the rear unless you stall entirely, all it'll do is drag the rear, causing a slide. It shouldn't lock completely, which is why it's so much more controllable than a rear brake lock.
At the point where the rear wheel is being dragged, it is locked.
One other point is, do folks:
1. Clutch, blip, change gear and release clutch or
2. Clutch, change gear, blip and release clutch
I do No. 2 as it seems to make more sense but some people seem to use the first sequence.
Cheers
Ben
An interesting point and not one previously discussed as far as I can remember.
I do number one as, to me, that makes more sense. You see when double declutching in a car you have to raise the engine revs to match the speed of the gearbox's idler gears before changing gear, so therefore on a bike I can't see it's any different, except you have a sequential gearbox.
By clutching in, blipping the throttle and matching engine speed to that of the gearbox before downshifting has to surely be the most sympathetic of the two methods mechanically speaking. I've tried both, feel that the gearbox is under stress with method two but perfectly happy with method one.
Would like to hear the views of Rictus and Sid Squid on this one.
.
northwind
16-10-04, 11:35 PM
The wheel is not locked, it's just turning slower than the road is passing it. It slides but isn't locked- as long as the engine is running, you're in gear and the clutch is out, you can't stop the rear wheel without stalling the bike. (unless you have a knackered clutch that is)
:shock: I don't blip... But then again I have a considerable amount of weight over the rear wheel :oops:
Seriously, I just let the clutch out slowly & my bike behaves itself :wink:
Same. I cant get the hang of blipping the throttle while gripping the brake :?
I try and downshift and use engine braking rather than use the brakes.. No doubt people will disagree with me and say that it's better to use the brakes than the engine to slow down. Only tend to use the brakes when there's a need to stop more quickly than the engine can do on it's own :shock:
Oh... and my opinion... sometimes it's fun to dump the clutch on a downshift to feel the back end squirming. So long as you know what to expect and don't put yourself in any real danger (eg rear end sliding onto a roundabout or something) then I can't see the problem!
Wow... just read thru 5 pages , lots o interesting internet wisdom.
I find that the smoothest way to downshift is notreally blipping the throttle, problem with blipping is to bigga blip and you dump the clutch and accelerate or wheelie momentarily.
I crack the throttle lightly to reduce engine braking. (engine braking is result of vacuum being pulled buy the intake when the throttle is closed)
then I SLIP the clutch. slipping wet clutches does not damage them.
Shooter
17-10-04, 07:19 AM
Pull in the clutch , twist (blip) the throttle, change the gear (up/down), release the clutch..nothing to it.
Timing and feel is everything - listen to the engine... feel the bike.
Original post : 55mph or 8000rpm is too high to change down to second gear (and unnecessary)
Number 1 for me clutch, blip, shift, clutch out. Because I do it so often and automatically I really had to think then of the order that I do it. The harder that I am braking and the further I get down the box results in the blipping becoming bigger and bigger. I have successfully changed from 2nd to 1st doing 20 miles an hour without the rear locking (oh sorry the rear wheel doesn't lock because it can't, apparently whilst the engine is still running).
you can tell if your back wheel has locked by checking the road for skid marks.
my 125 locks when changing from 2nd to 1st.
havent locked the cbr on downchanges.
chazzyb
17-10-04, 10:44 AM
havent locked the cbr on downchanges.
I just composed a nice response to this, posted it, and then re-read it and realised it wasn't about a car. Doh! :roll:
:shock: I don't blip... But then again I have a considerable amount of weight over the rear wheel :oops:
Seriously, I just let the clutch out slowly & my bike behaves itself :wink:
Same. I cant get the hang of blipping the throttle while gripping the brake :?
Persist with it Jordan. It's when you think about it, it all seems unnatural.. Once you crack it you will always blip on the downshift. Makes your riding quicker and smoother. It is all really mechanical when you first start doing it, but once the sinaptic (sp) routes are in your brain and the muscle memory is there it can be done in the blink of an eye. So much so 21Quest has said do you clutch, blip, change, clutch or clutch, change, blip, clutch, I couldn't honestly say. I just do it.
Timing and feel is everything - listen to the engine... feel the bike.
This indeed is the key.
.
you can tell if your back wheel has locked by checking the road for skid marks.
my 125 locks when changing from 2nd to 1st.
havent locked the cbr on downchanges.
Actually you can leave skid marks without locking the wheel. The engine braking makes the wheel spin slower than the road is moving under it (the opposite of a powerslide but they both mean that the tyre lays rubbers down as it is spinning at a different rate to the rate of travel) therefore "dragging" rather than rolling.The wheel is still turning otherwise the engine would stall.
Number 1 for me clutch, blip, shift, clutch out. Because I do it so often and automatically I really had to think then of the order that I do it.
I had to go outside and sit on my bike to find out that im number 1 also, if you do number 2, then the whole process is flawed because you have already used the gearbox.
About the braking aswell when downshifting, using the brake at the same time as downshifting is asking for trouble anyway, since the bike is still unstable (no matter how good your blipping) then using the front brake might cause your wheel to tuck under, using the back brake might actually cause what we are trying to defeat (wheel locking).
I try to brake mostly before i downshift, then afterwards the rest can be done by the engine, probably 90/10 Caliper/Engine.
coombest
17-10-04, 04:25 PM
using the front brake might cause your wheel to tuck under
God - I'd better not use the front brake at all then! Just in case!!!
I try to brake mostly before i downshift, then afterwards the rest can be done by the engine, probably 90/10 Caliper/Engine.
Hmmm, don't you find that dog-slow, though!
As soon as you get used to doing it all in one smooth movement, there's no more chance of tucking the front than if you weren't downchanging at the same time!
In fact - I'd go as far as to say that you're probably more likely to lose it if you're braking hard without changing down as the engine will be putting all it's energy onto the front tyre & loading up the suspension more as it's in a higher gear!
I have never had a problem with blipping on downchanges, or with clutchless up/downchanges. I have done it for years in my (rear wheel drive) car (as well as two-foot braking) and naturally did it on a bike - even on my CBT on a lil' CB125. However the CB didn't really need it and it took too long for the engine revs to match for it to be really worthwhile!
I was also implicitly told by my DAS instructor to blip the throttle on downchanges when I moved onto the GS500. I told him I was aware of it & how to do it & he sent me off round the car park to practice for a couple of minutes.
I'm very surprised how few people were taught to do this!
northwind
17-10-04, 05:33 PM
Actually you can leave skid marks without locking the wheel. The engine braking makes the wheel spin slower than the road is moving under it (the opposite of a powerslide but they both mean that the tyre lays rubbers down as it is spinning at a different rate to the rate of travel) therefore "dragging" rather than rolling.The wheel is still turning otherwise the engine would stall.
Thank you! Saved me saying ait again :)
I always blip - got into the habit very early on and now it's second nature.
I'm a "clutch-lever in, downchange, blip, clutch-lever out" person, although the last 2 bits (the blip, clutch-lever out) sort of merge into one under certain circumstances, e.g. changing down but maintaining constant speed, if that makes sense. A sort of "precautionary downchange" :?
I think, too, that is harder to lock the rear whell of an IL4 than a twin, but what do I know? :lol:
chazzyb
17-10-04, 06:20 PM
Pwah: us blokes eh! I bet there are ladies out there thinking; 'Men: they can only do one thing at a time - we can do all four steps at the same time!'.
Shooter
17-10-04, 07:26 PM
additionally - it is no real problem to cover and use the front brake while blipping. The blipping is done by the palm of the hand while the fingers are on the brake lever. Worth practising as engine braking is for slowing the bike and the brakes a are for stopping the bike. Both together give ultimate control when used properly.
Smooth gear changes right down thru to 1st (low) seem best done while the engine is running down thru each of the gears. If you get to the stopped situation in say 3rd and then try to kick thru the gears to find first or neutral, it is clunky and difficult.
ArtyLady
17-10-04, 09:10 PM
I think, too, that is harder to lock the rear whell of an IL4 than a twin, but what do I know? :lol:
I could change gear without thinking about it on my bandit ! Now I have to think :roll:
I think, too, that is harder to lock the rear whell of an IL4 than a twin, but what do I know? :lol:
I could change gear without thinking about it on my bandit ! Now I have to think :roll:
That's the price of character, mum. :wink:
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