View Full Version : To filter or not to Filter.....are you feeling lucky?
Just to carry on from what seems a common topic on this board at the moment...when do you filter?
Currently waiting for a claim that involved cars, bikes and filtering, I have changed my views on filtering since last Novemeber (yes I have been waiting that long for this claim! :evil: ).
Last year, I was filtering down the right hand side of a queue of stationary traffic, not going toofast as the lights 50 yrds or so ahead were red. I nice lady in a crappy Micra decides that she doesn't want to get stuck waiting for traffic comig the other way after the lights change but does want to go into the car park about 10 yrds ahead on the right....so she goes....no indication, no checks...just goes...and so do I as her decision was made as I was passing her rear wheel! Anyway, bike a bit screwed, my shoulder still not right BUT I have finally got her to admit liability!
Anyway, just to get to the point....if the car park junction had been even 2 or 3 yards closer the incident would probably have had to be sattled at 70%-30% in HER favour, as, although she did not indicate, I would have been filtering past a junction which in a court of law, due to a precedent set some time ago would mean that I was driving without the due care and attention that the situation deserved! :shock:
So if filtering past junctions means that any accident becomes your fault.....where in London could you ever filter without having to accept that your bike is likely to be written off soon and you will be left with nothing!
Sorry for the long post but this subject does interest me now.
Surely if someone just turns without indicating and looking then surely is that not driving without due care and attention. But the grounds on filtering are rather fuzzy, after I've filtered past car park entrances but they where drops in to the payments and not a actual road juntion. I tend not to like filtering past justions due to the reason stated above, might need Frasers view here as he's can see what covered in the eyes of the law.
I'm convinced filtering is an art - or at least safe and perfect filtering is. Playing devil's advocate I would put forward the notion that if someone pulls out of a line of traffic then with correct and focussed observation you should have some tell-tale sign, particularly as in this instance there was a car park entrance on the right.
Yes it's easy for me to say and no, I wasn't there. I'm just convinced that these sort of common accidents can be avoided with the correct approach. Easy? No way. Needs a lot of experience, training and discipline.
Yesterday I was out riding and I did some really first class filtering, really pleased. And then on the way back I did some utterly dreadful filtering and thought now why the hell did I just do that? :oops: Only by consistently working at filtering can you expect to stay rubber side down. So I'm working on it. :lol:
Glad the insurance claim seems to be sorted.
(Oh and please still be talking to me Phil ;)).
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Glad things are getting sorted.
I'm assuming that this was a single-file queue, hence your going along the outside? Difficult to spot people going what she did, so "slowly overtake" is the order of the day. Even if there were no junctions on the right, you'd still get looney cabbies doing u-eys :cry:
If it were a two lane queue then the sort of manouvre this lady did explains why most of us chose to filter between the lanes.
During my journey to work I only filter in a few places, and every time is in 2 lane traffic. If the gap looks to close, i'll just hold off, though i'm quite a patient person. I've nearly been hit countless times and i've learnt from it each time such as checking where drivers are looking and watching my speed. If i'm sucsessful i'll make up about 10 minutes on my journey to work and in the winter thats 20 minutes a day being warm and not cold! Just my 2p's worth
Colin
howardr
12-11-04, 02:31 PM
As a good rule-of-thumb: If you're going down the outside, as long as no-one is coming the other way (or emerging from a junction into the lane coming the other way), stay way out in the middle of the opposite lane. This gives you a better view of the traffic you are overtaking so you can spot 'numpties' and also may give you enough space to avoid someone pulling out on you.
You feel a bit conspicuous at first but isn't that what it's all about?
Sid Squid
12-11-04, 04:30 PM
When do you filter?
Whenever it's remotely possible.
Stay awake though.
Jelster
12-11-04, 10:38 PM
Have to agree with Squid on this one, I can't see the point of having a bike and not filtering... Crossing 20 miles through London each way as I do, I have done my fair share of filtering over the last 2 years.
I'm very fussy about where I will go down the outside, Commercial St, round the back of my office is about the only place I can think of. I've been caught too many times in other places by emerging traffic (and pedestrians :roll: ). I think that with experience you almost get a 6th sense, and can tell which cars/vans not to trust (anybody in a BMW or Mercedes for a start :wink: ). If I'm not sure I won't commit, and I wait for the gap to open.
However, I do have "Gixer boy" moments and chase the odd gap, accelerating into spaces I know I shouldn't, but IMHO that's part of biking. One thing I do know is, if I rode like that every day I'd end up in hospital, so I don't.....
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Ceri JC
18-11-04, 11:23 AM
If it were a two lane queue then the sort of manouvre this lady did explains why most of us chose to filter between the lanes.
Yes, unless it's single file I prefer that. I must admit I do sometimes single lane filter past junctions/turnings, but I try to sit a bit further out provided there's space in the oncoming lane.
Just out of interest, what's the fastest you (generally) filter at in fair conditions where the traffic is stopped or absolutely crawling?
Just out of interest, what's the fastest you (generally) filter at in fair conditions where the traffic is stopped or absolutely crawling?
Never go higher than the posted limit.. and it all depends on the speed of the traffic and your location... if I'm filtering inbetween cars in a 40... then I expect my max is 20.
But I don't worry to much as if I'm looking at the speedo I'm not looking at the people in front and that when splat happens. So I go with what feels safe., and keep a eye out for everything.
yellowspanner
18-11-04, 02:14 PM
Just out of interest, what's the fastest you (generally) filter at in fair conditions where the traffic is stopped or absolutely crawling?
Never go higher than the posted limit.. and it all depends on the speed of the traffic and your location... if I'm filtering inbetween cars in a 40... then I expect my max is 20.
But I don't worry to much as if I'm looking at the speedo I'm not looking at the people in front and that when splat happens. So I go with what feels safe., and keep a eye out for everything.
I have to say that as long as I'm making progress through a queue then I'm happy. Its all play it by ear though isn't it. A stopped q on wide dual carriageway I'll quite happily blat through at 20. Other times I'm down to walking pace....
amarko5
19-11-04, 11:38 PM
stay way out in the middle of the opposite lane.
Would that not be an offence :shock: driving on the wrong side of the road :P :lol:
stay way out in the middle of the opposite lane.
Would that not be an offence :shock: driving on the wrong side of the road :P :lol:
Its not a offence to drive on the wrong side of the road.. as long as the road is clear and the vanishing point and visibility is good. They teach you to use all of the road in advanced training. I was told this on my CBT as was my wife.
Remember its called the highway CODE.
The most useful thing that I gou out of the NEC show was a little card with a link to the WhiteDalton web site and this information in particular
http://www.whitedalton.co.uk/overtaking.htm
I recommend that if you filter, you have read it, it is the best explaination of the legal position and what your insurance company will do in the event of an accident, why they will do it and why you do not have to accept what they say.
I filter every opportunity I get, but ALWAYS look for the one that didn't see me. Unfortunately experience has made me wise
I filter every opportunity I get, but ALWAYS look for the one that didn't see me. Unfortunately experience has made me wise
That is the whole of the debate. Look out for everyone else's mistakes because they are the ones that will hurt you. Filter as much as you feel safe in doing. Don't rush, ask yourself "do I really need to pass these cars" and make a safe choice. I filter all the time but I go into "filter mode" where every car is a danger and I presume they all want to have me off the bike. :wink:
I always put my hi-beam on as I know from driving a car that often its the glint of light that reflects off the wing mirror you see out the corner of your eyes that makes you aware a motorcyclists is coming.
I couldnt do my commute in the morning in under 2.5 hours if I didnt filter... I start on the m20 around maidstone at a speed which is around the speed limit... and it continues via m25 and a2... by the time I get to angel Ive practically filtered at various speeds from maidstone...
speed and how is dependant on conditions (ie never in torrential rain) and speed of traffic and how the traffic is driving....
if the drivers are particularly dopey or the light isnt good have full lights on - now often use my hibeam - and I move a little side to side to make sure the glint reflects in the wing mirrors of the cars im approaching....
my other recommendation if you do a lot of filtering is get a very loud can... it makes such a big difference.... they know somethings there and they do tend on the whole to look before they change lane... and it sounds good in the tunnels :D
Balky001
23-11-04, 02:32 PM
For me, filtering is a great part of the biking experience and cuts a car commute of around 2 hours to a managable 40 minutes for me. I think its almost impossible to generalise what's safe and what isn't if decent progress is to be made, just be aware of surrounds, car position (you can often tell by the car's body language what the driver's going to do) and assume nothing. I too use full beam if on a dual carriageway and passing quickly. On single carriage way, definately use the other lane if same, watch out for cars turning left (quickly, no indication of course!) coming on the the road in front of you as they wont expect a bike travelling the wrong way down the road
I've said previously that I don't believe loud cans are that effective but any assitance to bring your presence to the attention of a dozy driver is good. So I've whacked on a Remus Grand Prix can and K&N air filter to my GSXR600, purely for safety reasons. Nice!
I'm not an aggresive filterer. I do my bit but when does filtering become illegal (ie overtaking on the inside) :?: I see people talking about filtering at speed on duel carriageways, but surely this is prosecutable. Can someone post a link or a few expert words that explains the law :?:
Thanks Ratty
:?
Filtering IS illegal, the only time you may undertake ANYTHNG is when you are in a lane that is for turning left or right AND the volume of traffic for the lanes going straight on is less than 30 mph.
Baldyman
24-11-04, 06:43 AM
So that's it then, everyone clear?
Have to agree with Squid on this one, I can't see the point of having a bike and not filtering
Filtering IS illegal
:? :? :? :?
The most useful thing that I gou out of the NEC show was a little card with a link to the WhiteDalton web site and this information in particular
http://www.whitedalton.co.uk/overtaking.htm
I recommend that if you filter, you have read it, it is the best explaination of the legal position and what your insurance company will do in the event of an accident, why they will do it and why you do not have to accept what they say.
But the above link states that filtering is legal, so is this ONLY between stationary vehicles?
Ratty
Baldyman
24-11-04, 07:25 PM
Cheers Ratty (and Patch) :thumbsup:
That'll do for me :)
ArtyLady
24-11-04, 11:05 PM
Filtering IS illegal, the only time you may undertake ANYTHNG is when you are in a lane that is for turning left or right AND the volume of traffic for the lanes going straight on is less than 30 mph.
Filtering is not illegal, and in addition to what you said Bigape, you may also make progress in left hand lanes past traffic on the right, on a dual carraigeway if the traffic is moving very slowly in queues. Correct me if Im wrong somebody :?
Filtering IS illegal, the only time you may undertake ANYTHNG is when you are in a lane that is for turning left or right AND the volume of traffic for the lanes going straight on is less than 30 mph.
Filtering is not illegal, and in addition to what you said Bigape, you may also make progress in left hand lanes past traffic on the right, on a dual carraigeway if the traffic is moving very slowly in queues. Correct me if Im wrong somebody :?
Oh :!: :? :roll:
ArtyLady
25-11-04, 01:35 PM
sorry if that sounded abrupt bigape - it wasnt meant to :oops: - what I should have said is what I have learned on my advanced training is that it is not illegal.
I suppose though it does depend how you perform it in different situations. It does seem to be quite an unclear area though doesnt it ! :? :)
the question then is has anyone been pulled by the old bill for it?
I can see it being dodgy when youre on motorway at above limit kind of riding and anyone doing that obviously makes their own choice to do so and accepts the responsibility of their actions... :D
but I filter past police cars all the time... especially on the A2.... while they look very intently at me which may have more to do with the can rather than the fact Im doing what EVERY other biker does...
I think its a legal grey area.... I dont think theres any defined law to say legal/illegal and not sure about case law and precedents...
but the driving without due care/dangerous driving laws may apply if your filtering is reckless....
I suppose though it does depend how you perform it in different situations. It does seem to be quite an unclear area though doesnt it ! :? :)
Yeah - I reckon so. I think it depends where a particular policeman draws the line between "using the motorcycle's superior manouverability to make progress" as per their own Roadcraft Manual and "dangerous driving".
I think that if the traffic your filtering between is moving above about 20mph then it's risky both from a legal and safety perspective. Obviously, there's a bit of leeway depending upon the width of the available space and the road conditions.
Personally, given that the roads in Cardiff aren't that congested and move reasonably well most of the time, traffic has to be almost stationary before I'll filter between two lines of vehicles or outside a single line.
That's my personal take on the risk vs progress equation where I live :wink:
I suppose local traffic conditions are part of what makes one person filter where another wouldnt....
I suppose I started doing it because all the other bikes on the m20/m25 did it and I would just get fed up sitting in traffic... thinking I may as well be in a box, warm and listening to stereo....
its also a case of when I hit maidstone, traffic on mway down to 20, start filtering and then when traffic picks up speed Im still filtering so I just carry on doing it... after all if youre gonna filter at 30, why not 50 etc reasoning...
I do try not to somedays... go back in the middle lane progressing nicely and driving sensibly then im being forced out by some twit whos come into my lane regardless of me being there so Im in between traffic at 80 even if I dont want to be... :roll:
In my experience of kent/london, I find the slower the traffic the more dangerous it is. Generally when people are moving relatively fast on the mway theyre less inclined to lane changes cos theyre doing a speed they want to. They also tend to look more because they are aware traffics flowing... Its when its slow... people arent patient... and thats when they dont look, get frustrated and it gets nuts.
the middle lane cars move an inch and they havent... so they must get in that lane from the outside lane...
sheep syndrome applies as well... oh that cars gone.. must be a reason so I'll change lane too..
and stationary is nuts...
people dont think bikes can still move when theyre stationary so they presume an indication is all they need and move... though loud cans and full beam helps hugely with that... usually down to 15-20 in that kind of traffic...
on das was taught a max 20-25 mph above the other traffic is a good guideline for filtering... I usually stick with that... let the gsxrs doing 90 through most days.. :roll:
Mr Toad
25-11-04, 02:24 PM
let the gsxrs doing 90 through most days.. :roll:
. . . but not last night :lol:
It was particularly cruel to wave your leg at him as you passed as well :shock: :lol:
It was particularly cruel to wave your leg at him as you passed as well :shock: :lol:
was this the one faffing about on the a13 with no gloves on??? :shock:
I was actually thanking him for letting me past.... :oops: :lol:
sorry if that sounded abrupt bigape - it wasnt meant to :oops: - what I should have said is what I have learned on my advanced training is that it is not illegal.
I suppose though it does depend how you perform it in different situations. It does seem to be quite an unclear area though doesnt it ! :? :)
No problem, I didn't think you were being abrupt.
Anyhow I have heard that in London they have a new initiative out whereby they are looking at prosecuting filterers. Apparently they are going to do this by CCTV. They are (allegedly) only looking for the dangerous filterers. How they decide when it is or isn't dangerous I have no idea, but there we are. I heard this some months ago, but as yet have heard no more about it.
ArtyLady
25-11-04, 04:56 PM
I personally dont filter at high speeds on dual carraigeways because the advice I have been given during advanced training is that it is highly dangerous - seems pretty sensible, (and because Im a wimp! :oops: ) and only to filter at relatively slow speeds and getting back into lane wherever possible.
Lets face it youll still get there quicker than the cages when they're bumper to bumper and moving at 10 mph !! :lol:
Its all about taking advantage of the small size of the bike to make safe progress wherever possible. :D
When I did my Bikesafe the copper observing me said ride like you normally ride so I get a true picture of what you're like.
We came across a big queue of traffic heading north out of Plymouth towards Dartmoor. I filtered up the outside like I would normally do, but he didn't. I thought "oh sh1te, not a good start" and rejoined the queue.
When he caught me up he said no problem with what I was doing just that they ( the police) aren't supposed to do it as it annoys motorists :?
All the more reason for doing it then :lol:
I commute from Newbury to London and if I didn't "high speed" filter it would put another hour on my journey. I do it as carefully as I can, I give the vehicle in front enough time to decide whether or not he wishes to pull aside to let me through, if not, then I will undertake, but only if I have a clear exit or somewhere to swerve into should he close the gap. There are some drivers who will pull across to the right to give me more room, but even then I will make sure I have an escape route before I undertake him. Some drivers make their intentions clear by indicating right and moving over, if that's done then I will under pass straight away.
It is a tricky subject, but I know that I take great care when doing this. I REALLY don't want to end up back in ICU. Next time I might not come back out again alive. Self preservation at the moment is high on my list.
My personal rule is never break the speed limit when filtering and never go more than 20 mph more than the speed of the other vehicles. Hence I will filter to maintain 70 mph even if the traffic is at 50.
but even then I will make sure I have an escape route
I always ride looking for hazards and ALWAYS ride with an escape route whether filtering or just down the road.... its a constant what if what if mental process...
part of the reason I love being on a bike... when you get off and stop you just feel so alive because your brains been on overtime :lol:
i just did my BikeSafe course with the Met Police and there was a big chat about filtering. They said it wasnt illegal, and no copper would ever do you for it, as long as you arent doing it dangerously. I asked what 'dangerously' meant and he said you are within your rights to make progress on a bike, but he wouldnt recommend doing anything more than 10mph faster than the traffic youre filtering past as it could be construed as dangerous. As for insurance, he said that insurance companies take an initial 50-50 blame standpoint in any claim involving filtering as it is considered a dangerous maneouvre, but this can obviously be swayed if for example a car knocks you off by doing a U-turn or a dangerous maneouvre themselves. The copper also said to stay out wide if there is no oncoming traffic - stay as far out as possible in the wrong lane as long as there is no oncoming traffic.....
Professor
02-12-04, 04:20 PM
The copper also said to stay out wide if there is no oncoming traffic - stay as far out as possible in the wrong lane as long as there is no oncoming traffic.....
Good thing this point has been clarified.
Living in the countryside I hardly ever feel the need to filter but there is
one place on my commute where I sometimes decide to overtake a traffic
queue when there are no cars coming in the opposite direction. I was
never sure whether I am supposed to stay far out or not.
timwilky
02-12-04, 05:17 PM
The copper also said to stay out wide if there is no oncoming traffic - stay as far out as possible in the wrong lane as long as there is no oncoming traffic.....
Good thing this point has been clarified.
Living in the countryside I hardly ever feel the need to filter but there is
one place on my commute where I sometimes decide to overtake a traffic
queue when there are no cars coming in the opposite direction. I was
never sure whether I am supposed to stay far out or not.
I have always taken the view that if the road ahead is clear of oncomming traffic, stay wide as it will indicate to others following that it is safe to overtake, this is particularly effective on those long left bends as being wide give you more visability
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