Direct access good or bad..... Gimme some facts!

[BURNER]

OK, so perhaps you did your DAS and hopped on a SV or bike of similar size. How did you fare after that?
Was it plain sailing or do have x-rays that show otherwise?

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Guilty.

Front wheel slide on a wet road - grabbed front brake.

[conn311]

Did the DAS - I felt it was good for what it's worth, essentially get's you to a standard where you're considered safe enough to get on the road with ANY bike...in much the same way that you CAN pass your car test in 5 days and can go out and drive a ferrari the next day if you want to :-/

BUT - I'd say it's only the START of learning to ride a bike, much like when you pass your car test, it takes a few months/years/decades of experience in all conditions to become good.

The other thing I did was start doing the IAM - this I am sure has saved not only my life (on at least a couple of occasions) - but has also saved me a few speeding tickets - due to the fact that I was riding appropriately for the posted limits etc. The IAM is a great way of progressing your learning and becoming a more competent rider...

That said, I did bin the bike within 3 months of passing the DAS - cold, icy morning, going round a roundabout and touched some diesel and the front end slipped away (those D220's are coming off any day now :) )

[ArtyLady]

IMO the DAS course and L test just teaches you basic bike control, and basic road safety. On my DAS I asked about leaning for corners and was told "dont worry you dont really need to know that" :? :shock:

I struggled big time with nerves for the first 12 months after passing my L test and only saw any real improvement a few months after joining my local IAM motorcycle group 12 months ago. Now Im more knowlegeable, more confident , more progressive and altogether much safer rider Ive still a way to go but I hope to take my advanced test soon. Ive said before - I think that motorcycle accidents would be drastically reduced if there was a compulsory element of advanced training after L test.

Ride safe everyone 8) :)

[Iansv]

Did the DAS 6-7 years ago, first drop that was my fault and not be getting rear ended was over 5 years

[BURNER]

Training or surviving long enough to tell the tale?
When I started riding all we had to do was pass a thoery test, valid for 2 years. This gave us entitlement to ride ANY size bike. Passengers and motorways were not allowed.
So I have met that mythical bloke on the 'busa who wanted know where first gear was! :shock:

Mate of mine bought a ZXR400 after I went bike shopping with him and advised him against the ZX7R. I couldn't let him ride it home, every time he changed gear he looked down at his foot :?

So for me, a relative outlander, DAS seems like a not so bad idea.

[Haircut]

At least with the DAS you're learning on a 'bigger' bike, which has to be a good thing.

What you do after you get a license is up to you.

A muppet can get themselves killed on any size bike.

[650newb]

well i am going to live up to my name, wot is the IAM exactly. as for the advance riding courses ill probably do that in the summer next year

[Jabba]

There isn't a poll option that fits me.

I think that DAS suits some people, and others less so.

In my case, I did a DAS-pass in a week having never riden anything before. Ever.

Since then I've had 9 months on my Hornet and done a Bikesafe course with the local plod. No "offs" or drops and no really scary moments. My short-term target is to keep it this way through my first winter of biking.

I should say that I'm considerably over 21 years old and have been driving (own fault) accident-free for well over 20 years. I suspect that I'm not the sort of person to take undue risks with my safety although I'm not aware of being thought a particularly slow rider.

I think that DAS suits those who already have some on-road experience and have developed that 6th sense that's sometimes needed. DAS probably doesn't suit those at the other end of the spectrum of those who are able to do it, i.e. the 21-year old who's never riden/driven anything on the road before.

[Ken McCulloch]

Training or surviving long enough to tell the tale?
When I started riding all we had to do was pass a thoery test, valid for 2 years. This gave us entitlement to ride ANY size bike. Passengers and motorways were not allowed.

:?: :?: :?:
Where and when was that, or did I miss something?

[conn311]

well i am going to live up to my name, wot is the IAM exactly. as for the advance riding courses ill probably do that in the summer next year

IAM - Institute of Advanced Motorcyclists/Motorists....

basically organised on a club basis whereby you join up (£85 for the first year - which includes your test fee) and thereafter you go out on 'observed' runs with trained observers who 'observe' as opposed to strictly 'train' to provide coaching/guidance etc as to riding safely and systematically, broadly following the police motorcycling system..

you can find out more here...

http://www.iam.org.uk/

[Cloggsy]

I've had my bike license 18 months now & I haven't binned my bike... But then I don't ride like a tw@... Honest

[Stig]

When I did my test the DAS thing wasn't around.

Anyway, I passed my test and went and got myself a CBR600. I crashed that within three months. I then traded that in for a YZF 750. I crashed that too.

I think the Direct Access is a good thing as far as it gives you the chance to experience performance motorcycles before you are let loose on the roads by yourself. One of my many feathers in my cap whilst serving in the forces was a driving/ riding instructor. I taught many guys how to ride on an Armstrong 500cc motorcycle. As soon as they passed their test they went out to the local Super bike dealer and bought a super sport bike. 9 times out of 10 they didn't get passed the first month without an off. Some worse than others.

The DAS only gives you a starting point on bigger bikes. I have been riding for the best part of 20 years and I still think that I have plenty to learn. At the same time as booking my lessons I booked an advanced course with the same Instructor.

So in summary.

Yes go Direct Access, but as soon as you have passed your test go and book an advanced course. They are invaluable and could save you from being another statistic.

Here endeth BigApe's sermon :wink: :lol: :lol:

[Professor]

I've had my bike license 20 months now & I haven't binned my bike... But
then I ride very very slow, as an old man is supposed to.

[fizzwheel]

I binned my bike, 125, when I only had my CBT.. touch wood since then nope.. havent binned it :D :?

Argree with Big Ape.. do your DAS and then go and get some more training

In my opinon all the teach you on your DAS course is to pass your test, not actually how to ride... just take your time and dont rush, also avoid going out in big groups after you pass, go out by yourself then you can ride at your own speed and wont feel forced into going faster than you want to just to keep up.

[Professor]

Argree with Big Ape.. do your DAS and then go and get some more training


Actually, DAS training has been the most terrifying part of my riding
experience. I was doing my DAS in winter and lessons had to
go ahead irrespective of the weather. I still have nightmares remembering
how I had to ride in a hail-storm with an open visor (otherwise my specs
would steam up) with my instructor shouting through the radio
"Keep it up to the national speed limit" (70 mph, dual carriageway).
On another day I got so wet that I was in danger of falling off the
bike as a result of uncontrollable shaking.

Not sure I have recovered enough to undergo more training.

[Cloggsy]

I've had my bike license 18 months now & I haven't binned my bike... But then I don't ride like a tw@... Honest

Having said that, I would like to get a track-day or two, or some IAM training under my belt in the not too distant future :!:

[BURNER]

Training or surviving long enough to tell the tale?
When I started riding all we had to do was pass a thoery test, valid for 2 years. This gave us entitlement to ride ANY size bike. Passengers and motorways were not allowed.

:?: :?: :?:
Where and when was that, or did I miss something?

I grew up in South Africa, started riding on the road in 1989 or so. Law remains the same far as I know.

[Ed]

Das, passed February, SV March, bad off June - got too close to oncoming, nowhere to go so grabbed front brake. They don't teach you enough about road positioning IMHO.

[Carsick]

They don't teach you enough about road positioning IMHO.
I have to say, my instructor went on about road positioning pretty much all the time.
Though we all work to a standard test, there is no way that everybodies instruction has covered all the same stuff.

If you look at the way the lessons/test work from a purely using a bike on the public roads viewpoint, I think they are suitable.
We are taught how to not get run over, to a fairly good degree, I think.
We are certainly not taught how to ride fast on bendy roads (though I was taken out for a lesson on some nice bendies near portsmouth, still trying to figure out where we were)
So, the question is, are people worried that we're not taught enough advanced riding? because I don't think that's what the DAS is for, and I don't think it should be, either.
If you introduce a compulsory "advanced" part of the test, then you're just going to discourage alot of people who may be perfectly good riders, or maybe just don't plan on riding like that.

Anyway, feel free to rip into my post, maybe I got off the point, maybe I'm tired, either way, the DAS may have flaws, but I don't think it's the basic idea that's flawed, it's the expectations put onto it.

[shutdown]

i only passed in October and got my bike last month and no drop yet. Have been riding scooters for a few years (gotta start somewhere?) as that's all I've needed to ride.

My instructor was very good. He prepared me well for country roads but not enough for me to go out on my bike now and try to get my knee down. He was good about braking and approaching junctions, corners that gave you the confidence to approach them sensibly and possibly saved me from an off whilst on lessons when a chav driving his corsa decided to ignore me on a roundabout. If I'd pulled the front brake i'd be sliding. When riding a scooter and you have to brake you just grab both brakes which i hard habit to break.

I would like to take some further instruction but feel I need to get used to my bike so that the further training is not wasted.I don't want the training so that i can blast through twisties with my knee down, i've read the statistics and the training has not helped the ****s who kill themselves. I just want to be even more aware of my surroundings.

[Carsick]

Two other things I thought were pertinent.

I don't consider the new part of the test they're adding to be an "advanced" bit, from what I've read it's simply doing what most of us have had to learn ourselves in a relatively safe environment.

Secondly, I had my first off a few months after getting my first big bike. It was a pulling away with cold tyres then discovering grit on the road moment. From what I've heard, pretty much everybody has made the same mistake at least once, it's a lesson well learnt, I think.

Add on to this, I can't help thinking that I'm basically agreeing with what BigApe and a few others were saying. The DAS is all well and good, now go out and do some more advanced training, cos it will become useful.

[ArtyLady]

So, the question is, are people worried that we're not taught enough advanced riding? because I don't think that's what the DAS is for, and I don't think it should be, either.
If you introduce a compulsory "advanced" part of the test, then you're just going to discourage alot of people who may be perfectly good riders, or maybe just don't plan on riding like that.



I agree the DAS is purely to teach the basics and get you through the L test and cannot really encompass any more than that in the time available.

I understand what you mean about "perfectly good riders" but when you say "they dont plan on riding like that" I think you may be missing the point of advanced training - its not about doing fancy fast stuff, its about training to ride with far more awareness of hazards, better road positioning, better bike control and with that eventually comes natural "progressive riding". :)

[Carsick]

I understand what you mean about "perfectly good riders" but when you say "they dont plan on riding like that" I think you may be missing the point of advanced training - its not about doing fancy fast stuff, its about training to ride with far more awareness of hazards, better road positioning, better bike control and with that eventually comes natural "progressive riding". :)
I have to admit, I probably do have the idea of going faster and advanced riding stuck in my head.

So in the end, it really comes down to attitude. Do you want to learn more about riding a bike? The people that want to learn and can admit they don't know it all, anecdotal evidence suggests to me that those people are often the more sensible amongst us.

[Carsick]

Have I gone off topic? :wink:

[K]

OK, so I've been on bikes 18 years, so my knowledge of the test is pretty irrelevant.

But having seen it change, along with the technology of bikes themselves I can say one thing - you never going to stop a **** from being a ****!

So with DAS some idiot with more money than sense can go out, with virtually no experience of bikes, let alone of road in general, and make a potentially deadly nuisance of themselves.

But they can do that anyway in a car - and with the relative safety that ensures they are less like to strengthen the gene pool by their absence, and more likely to kill others.

Also that kind of rider is as deadly, and as much of a boost to our insurance premiums, on a 125 or scooter as on anything bigger. If anything more so, as on a low powered machine you simply don't have that kick to get you out of a situation.

Everything else, learing to read the road, riding position, handling, low speed manouvering etc, it's all about experience - be it your own or taking on board that of others. No single test is going to give you that, only time. So to be honest I don't think it really matters which way you get into biking.

Some people benefit from a slow build up through smaller machines - others (myself included) feel safer and more confident on something with a bit of meat on it. It's horses for courses.

Everything is a learning curve, and face it, ****s rarely learn.

I do think that perhaps the IAM could do more to raise their profile amongst new bikers though. Many perceive their training to be all knee down race moves. It's anything but.
As Lorna said, it's all about passing on a wealth of experience regarding safer, better road riding skills. Stuff that could take you years and many mistakes of biking on your own to learn the hard way.

I have to say we're lucky in Northampton. Anyone who lives in Northamptonshire can sign up for the initial IAM police pursute ride for free. As well as a one day track course which is all about low speed handling, postitioning etc (you never get about about 45mph) in a isolated environment.
This is free too, all funded by Northhamptonshire police.

Um, I'm not too sure where I'm going with all this rambling! :oops:

Basically I don't think that either test is at fault. More the worries caused by the attitude of a few retards, which isn't going to change and can't really be stopped.



Well, not unless they start to include psychological profiling before your even allowed to apply for a car or bike test. :wink:

[Carsick]

you never going to stop a **** from being a ****!
:winner:
You just summed up part of what I was trying to say in my last post.

[JonnySVS]

I passed my DAS 3 years ago and touch wood haven't come off since passing. I did come off on my second day of my DAS course though.

I joined a large roundabout and my front wheel hit some diesel. I manged to keep the bike upright but headed for the centre of the roundabout, hit the kerb and ended in heap in the middle of the roundabout covered in mud (It was in the middle of January). As my instructor was helping me get to my feet who should ride past, none other than the examiner who took my test the next day. Still passed though.

[mysteryjimbo]

I went the long route before taking my DAS. I took my CBT and went around on a 125 for 8 months (not just at weekends, all week) before taking my full test with 2 days tuition.

I did come off the 125 once or twice during the bad weather in the winter (I took my CBT in November). But that was down to having ice on the roads and that can catch the most experienced of riders out.

I think the motorcycle test as it stands needs changing somewhat. The age restriction doesnt work properly a lot of new riders are having a midlife crisis :lol: :lol: !! Perhaps grading and cc restriction would be appropriate for new riders. Having extra power is an advantage at times, but to the inexperienced it can sometimes be too much and can get out of hand.

[timwilky]

although I voted still upright after 2 years, By first bike was written off for me after 6 days. I stopped at traffic lights. Dozy git behind didn't. He admitted liability and I am still got an ongoing claim for personal injuries. So I don't count it,

DAS course teaches you the basics to pass the test. You only learn once you get out there feck up and get away with it and think I ain't going to do that again. At no point on my course was cornering ever discussed. Counter steering was something discussed in mags. It was on;y when I rode with some experienced friends that they helped me through my corner difficulties.

[fizzwheel]

agree with you Tim, it does only teach you the basics, Lucky for me my brother and Dad both ride and the taught me all the other stuff such as counter steering, also I read lots of articles in magazines / MCN and then went out on the road and tried it, plus a fair few brown trouser moments.

I dont think that theres any substitute for experience and thats something that you arent gonna get through a DAS course, trouble is I dont think that restricting licenses for two years will help, in fact it will make things worse.. as people will just not ride for two years and then go and get what they want anyway..

I think we need education rather than legislation.. and no matter what happens you'll always get people who spoil it for everybody else

[Philbo]

Passed the DAS 18 months or so ago, no offs so far! I agree with most folks opinion that the DAS teaches how to ride a bigger bike within the rules of the road. It's when you start to push yourself to go that bit faster, overtake the bugger in the BMW, see how fast you can take this corner, that's when it all goes wrong.

Not done the IAM thing, but did go on a number of ride outs with the riding school that taught me. They were the ones who told me to forget the stuff I learned to pass the test, and gave me loads of pointers regarding observations and road position. They leave the offer open to anyone who trains / has trained with them.

[BURNER]

trouble is I dont think that restricting licenses for two years will help, in fact it will make things worse.. as people will just not ride for two years and then go and get what they want anyway..



What the market needs are fun smaller bikes to attract learners onto stock 33 BHP bikes that will actually be fun to ride. Something like this...



http://usera.imagecave.com/burnerboy/goose.jpg

What I'd like to see are more people on bikes, Suzukis preferably :)

[Skiddy]

For I think it made a *huge* difference that I'd ridden smaller bikes before doing the DAS. I had a year on a 50cc (knocked off twice), and a couple of years on 125's (slid off about three or four times). I then had a few years off, did the DAS, rode a GPz550 for a month, then finally got the SV. No accidents or incidents since being on the big bike so far!

Basically I think I developed a health distrust of a) the road itself (unexpected bends, crappy surface, diesel, ice, snow) and b) everything else /on/ the roads. DAS just got me used to a bigger bike and taught me how to pass the test.

[northwind]

Not sure... In my case, while I did have an off within a month or so of doing the DAS, it was a stupid mistake and not really a failing of the training. On the other hand, I was a lot better on a bike than most candidates from the word go, and could probably have had a good stab at the test after just a couple of hours on the bike bike, and not bothered with the rest of the training. One of the other guys on my course was absolutely gash, bloody terrible, and he passed somehow, so in the light of that I'd say it doesn't work.

I reckon DAS needs a longer test as well as a bigger bike, to be honest. And it needs to be on a proper bigger bike that bears some resemblance to what 9/10 of candidates will go onto, not the usual 500cc, impeccably behaved, maneuverable machine. I think that's the real failing- even going onto an SV froma GS500E is a giant step, and you could get on a Blade if you had deep pockets, or a Busa, or a GSXR 750.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I reckon DAS needs a longer test as well as a bigger bike, to be honest. And it needs to be on a proper bigger bike that bears some resemblance to what 9/10 of candidates will go onto, not the usual 500cc, impeccably behaved, maneuverable machine. I think that's the real failing- even going onto an SV froma GS500E is a giant step, and you could get on a Blade if you had deep pockets, or a Busa, or a GSXR 750.

Not feasable. Riding schools aren't going out and buying anything as expensive as an SV, let alone blades for learners to go crash on (well, at least not without making leasons more expensive than anyone can reasonably afford).

People really need to get this idea out of their head that the state can (or even worse, that the state should) legislate in order to protect them against their own stupidity.

[Carsick]

People really need to get this idea out of their head that the state can (or even worse, that the state should) legislate in order to protect them against their own stupidity.
Here here.

It would be nice to be given more experience on much larger bikes, but at the end of the day, you are taught plenty enough to deal with a very powerful bike, if you are sensible.

[northwind]

I reckon DAS needs a longer test as well as a bigger bike, to be honest. And it needs to be on a proper bigger bike that bears some resemblance to what 9/10 of candidates will go onto, not the usual 500cc, impeccably behaved, maneuverable machine. I think that's the real failing- even going onto an SV froma GS500E is a giant step, and you could get on a Blade if you had deep pockets, or a Busa, or a GSXR 750.

Not feasable. Riding schools aren't going out and buying anything as expensive as an SV, let alone blades for learners to go crash on (well, at least not without making leasons more expensive than anyone can reasonably afford).

People really need to get this idea out of their head that the state can (or even worse, that the state should) legislate in order to protect them against their own stupidity.

I don't want to be ptorected against my own stupidity, I want to be protected against other people's incompetence... Since I've nearly been had off twice by tossers on big bikes that they don't know how to ride.

The thing about schools, I'm not suggesting that schools buy Blades. There's other ways of doing it- compulsory post-pass training for any bikes above a certain power, for instance, to be done on your own bike once you've bought it. If there was more training money coming in, most schools could afford to run a single higher performance machine as well.

[The Mass]

Since then I've had 9 months on my Hornet and done a Bikesafe course with the local plod. No "offs" or drops and no really scary moments. My short-term target is to keep it this way through my first winter of biking.



Jabba, I thought you had been riding for years mate? :shock:

Also nice to know, that you say you're a safe rider :wink:

[BURNER]

I don't want to be ptorected against my own stupidity, I want to be protected against other people's incompetence... Since I've nearly been had off twice by tossers on big bikes that they don't know how to ride.



I hear that. Usually a blade or an R1 that overtakes me just before a bend then stuffs his brakes on so that I nearly run into him.

[timwilky]

Since then I've had 9 months on my Hornet and done a Bikesafe course with the local plod.

OK for some. My local plod (Lancs ) will not do bikesafe

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I don't want to be ptorected against my own stupidity, I want to be protected against other people's incompetence... Since I've nearly been had off twice by tossers on big bikes that they don't know how to ride.

Thats just unlucky. Bikers odds of being hurt by a numpty car drivers or their own inexperience are much higher, and further training is no garuntee of preventing this from happening especially if...

The thing about schools, I'm not suggesting that schools buy Blades. There's other ways of doing it- compulsory post-pass training for any bikes above a certain power, for instance, to be done on your own bike once you've bought it. If there was more training money coming in, most schools could afford to run a single higher performance machine as well.

...they do what you suggest and force people to take advanced training. People don't like being forced to do things, especialy if they're forced into things they have to pay for. Too much stick, not enough carrot, as it were. The promotion of further training so that it's viewed as a worth while accomplishment is better than it being something to resent as another hurdle to overcome to start biking.

As for the power issue, thats been covered before and would in practice acheive nothing... http://forums.sv650.org/viewtopic.php?t=14311

[northwind]

So what do you suggest? The current situation doesn't make much sense in too many ways for my liking... Subsidised further training, for bikers and drivers, would be a good thing, for one.

I'm not talking baout compulsory further training, i'm talking about compulsory further training if buyng a bike above a certain power- 100bhp, maybe. Certainly makes more sense than the 33bhp for 2 years restriction, which if you ask me is blatantly stupid...

Here's a structure for it. Abolish DAS entirely. Instead, you have the basic test, and then further tests to ride bigger bikes. You could have a CBT-like system whereby you can ride a more powerful bike one step above your qualification for a training period before taking on the qualification, a month maybe, that removes the need for further training at a formal school. I envision maybe 30 as the basic test, 60, 100, 150hp being the various grades. You could do some of these at the same point of the test, if you wanted, but you would have to do them on a bike within a certain percentage of the target- say 50+ for the 60 horse test, etc.

I'm not saying it's perfect, in fact I'm not even saying it's better than DAS, I just thought of it :) But it seems to make a little more sense than DAS.

I'm thinking this would in fact reduce the amount of training a lot of people have to do, if they want to ride smaller bikes, say GSs or similiar. But if

[Flamin_Squirrel]

There is no point saying "I dont like the current system", unless you can come up with a better method. Thats the mentality of the government and it's extremely irresponsible. If the government (especialy our current one) sees a problem with more powerful bikes, their solution would be to ban them, or some other action carried though with no thought what so ever.

There IS no problem with more powerful bikes other than the responsibility that comes with them and that cant be tested.

[timwilky]

There is no point saying "I dont like the current system", unless you can come up with a better method. Thats the mentality of the government and it's extremely irresponsible. If the government (especialy our current one) sees a problem with more powerful bikes, their solution would be to ban them, or some other action carried though with no thought what so ever.

There IS no problem with more powerful bikes other than the responsibility that comes with them and that cant be tested.

Well said that man. Responsibility is an individual issue. It is when the individuals are not seen to be taking responsibility that the nanny state then step in and wrap us up in cuddly tonys big strong arms. At that point the anti bike facist will win their cause and all bikes > 125cc will be banned.

I have twice been the victim of goverments outlawing my legitimate hobbies and I don't want a third. So everyone please stop talking about additional testing/qualification. Let goverment come up with their own ideas. Take responsibility for yourselves and get extra training, it may actually save your life.

[Professor]

So everyone please stop talking about additional testing/qualification.

Agree.

The culture of testing, re-testing, reviewing, certifying etc is growing like a
malignant tumour in all spheres of British life. I see it every day in my
university. Don't want this tumour to extend to biking.

[Jabba]

Jabba, I thought you had been riding for years mate? :shock:

Nope. Passed test in May 2003 after one week of DAS. Didn't ride again until getting the Hornet in March 2004.

Also nice to know, that you say you're a safe rider :wink:

Cue Jabba's first off..................... sure hope not :lol:

Not sure if I'm a safe rider or not - others will be a better judge of that.
However, age and attitude are on my side :wink:

[northwind]

There is no point saying "I dont like the current system", unless you can come up with a better method. Thats the mentality of the government and it's extremely irresponsible. If the government (especialy our current one) sees a problem with more powerful bikes, their solution would be to ban them, or some other action carried though with no thought what so ever.

There IS no problem with more powerful bikes other than the responsibility that comes with them and that cant be tested.

I don't agree with that at all... There's 2 factors that make people dangerous on bikes, or in cars- responsibility and skill. You can't train for responsibility, but you can train for better riding skills.

DAS at the moment is a test-passing exercise, it could be a lot more. 4 days solid training is enough to do a lot more than it does, but we end up spending half of our time just riding test routes, practicing endless hill starts... For me, half of my DAS was time and money wasted that could have been better used teaching other riding skills, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

And going a bit further, the standard 4-day DAS schemes ARE too expensive for a lot of people, mine cost me £500! And that's not exactly unusual. What I'm talking about is removing the broadbrush aspects of it and trying to give individuals more appropriate training. Doesn't mean it's going to be more training, or less training. But like I say, I would probably have passed with a day on the big bikes, maybe 2, while others are getting through the system after the 4 days just barely at test level. It doesn't make sense to treat all riders the same.

And there's still the simple fact that we don't just put our own lives at risk on the road. If that wasn't the case, then aye, I'd say let any idiot out with the minimum training and see what happens, it's just natural selection.

Also, I don't agree that you should only express dissatisfaction with a system unless you have a better answer. What's wrong with saying "The current system doesn't work and we should look for another?"

Once again I'm not talking about extra training, though I think it'd be advisable... What I am talking about is the right training. Talk to anyone at a bike school and see how happy they are with the DAS structure.

While we're at it, I'll have everyone doing the theory test before CBT and I'll restrict it to 6 months before you do the test or resit. It was never supposed to be a way to get on the road for a long term, and I've got a couple of mates who're going into their second CBT 2-year period whose riding just curdles my blood.

[MavUK]

Did my DAS in 2000, 4 days and passed fine. I was quite happy with the course - but I got a lot of recomendations from friends and family (my brother and his mates) for the instructor. I did a mix of riding skills with manouvers. Doing the tests routes a couple of times as well. The bike was a Honda NTV650 BTW - my first fling with a V Twin

I think maturaty (sp?) comes into this a lot. I brought my first bike based on something that looked half decent and wouldn't be trying to kill me to much. Enter the GPZ500s. Nice bike, great the learn the ropes on. The shop was trying to sell me a CBR600R or a Ninja 600 - to a newbie with no experience... There's accidents waiting to happen...

After 4 years I progressed onto the SV.

I also regocnise that I am not a fast rider and have limitations - I make sure I'm well inside them, most of the time - we all make mistakes :)

I don't think there is a lot that I would change with the DAS system to be honest. If it had been different I wouldn't be riding right now - I had a week with nothing to do so I took the couse. If I'd have failed I couldn't retake - I liveed in the Netherlands back then as well.

I think the only legislation you could put on it is increase the minimum age for riding a full powered bike - but them my brothers more dangerous than me and he's nearly 31 - so that doesn't work either.

I just don't think you can legislate for the idiots. Not without ruining everyone elses time. Hohum.

Sorry about the rambling nature of the post. Kinda writing as I thought...

Stu

[Flamin_Squirrel]

There is no point saying "I dont like the current system", unless you can come up with a better method. Thats the mentality of the government and it's extremely irresponsible. If the government (especialy our current one) sees a problem with more powerful bikes, their solution would be to ban them, or some other action carried though with no thought what so ever.

There IS no problem with more powerful bikes other than the responsibility that comes with them and that cant be tested.

I don't agree with that at all... There's 2 factors that make people dangerous on bikes, or in cars- responsibility and skill. You can't train for responsibility, but you can train for better riding skills.

If you pass the test you have the skill to ride a motorcycle safely. Thats all that's, required to get onto the road and that's the way it should be. Better riding skills, what like road positioning, throttle blipping, counter steering, clutchless shifting, weight distribution? Sure having these skills will allow you to ride faster, but that's not what we're talking about. DAS prepares you for starting you off riding on the road, and does it fine.

If you attempt to ride outside your ability then crash because of it, then that comes back to being irresponsable, and if you're going to be irresponsable then more training isnt going to help you or any poor person you might happen to hit.

[coombest]

I have voted within 2 years! (looks like I'm the only one!!)

I did drop my bike within the first year after my DAS BUT it was on track. I also laid it down on it's side very gently after cocking up a stoppie in the car park at a SELKent meet... Everyone saw it too!!! :oops: :oops:

I did not have a cxrash in my first year though and have only recently been involved in a crash (as I'm sure most of you are aware) which was not my fault!

I was on the A22 coming out of Eastbourne, towards London. It was the single lane, national speed limit section, just by a turn-off to a local village. There is a waiting box in the middle of the 2 lanes, where one caqr driver was sitting, having pulled out from this turning - waiting to turn towards Eastbourne. Another car driver coming in the opposite direction to me pulled into the waiting box, behind the first guy - he was obviously waiting to turn accross my lane, down the turn-off.
Another car driver coming in the opposite direction flashed the first guy to let him out onto the A22 towards Eastbourne.
The second Muppet (sorry - car driver) "assumed" (his words in his Police statement!) the guy was flashing him to go, so went... Without looking!

BANG!!!

Over the roof I went!! The rest is history! :? :evil:

I am yet to have it confirmed by the Police whether they will be persuing Criminal charges against him! :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

[northwind]

If you pass the test you have the skill to ride a motorcycle safely. Thats all that's, required to get onto the road and that's the way it should be. Better riding skills, what like road positioning, throttle blipping, counter steering, clutchless shifting, weight distribution? Sure having these skills will allow you to ride faster, but that's not what we're talking about. DAS prepares you for starting you off riding on the road, and does it fine.

I don't really buy that either. I'll say flat out that one of the guys who went to test with me was not reliably riding safely. He got through his test with just about as many minors as you can have, but to this day I have no idea how- he was a disaster even on the ride to the testing centre. Don't think the trainers quite knew how he passed either.

And some of those other skills- especially road positioning- could be trained. Hell, road positioning is an essential safety skill on a bike, I'd say if you can't choose a good road position you're going to be constantly in danger- your visibility is poor (in both senses), as well as being 3rd laned etc. That's what bothers me most about perennial CBT riders, you see them getting themselves into all sorts of terrible places that even a recent DAS passer will know are just bad news for a bike...

I don't think you can seperate "basic skills" and "adanced skills" in the way you seem to be doing. I'm not talking about teachig people how to get their knee down or anything like that- maybe even longer supervised rides could be introduced (I reckon I learned more on the 300 miles to Glencoe and back with my first rideout than on my DAS, which is why I suggest this- just time spent riding and cementing new skills.)

On my first day on the GS500, I ended up going out for a ride "solo" with an instructor as the other guys needed much more attention than me- they were left with the head of the school, I went out with Andy (who came along on one of the SV Ecosse rides on his crazy MZ) and all we did for about an hour was hoon about twisty NSL roads. Usually there's not really time in the DAS course for that, but I found it massively useful. And fun :) That's the sort of thing I'm talking about when I'm arguing for further training.

Basically, I reckon I learned a bit too much on the road by myself after doing CBT - never binned the 125 but I'll never know how- and probably the same goes for DAS. It worked out not bad for me, but looking back I can see about 10 times I could've ended up in hospital or worse if thigs had gone only slightly different.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I agree about the CBT being abused, but as for the DAS, I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make. If you ride as cautiously as you do on your test, there is no reason that you shouldnt be able to avoid an accident.

[northwind]

Yup, that is true, but also IMHO totally unrealistic :) Even if the test covered every sort of riding and every condition that we ride in, which it can't, I don't think anybody rides that way every time they get on a bike. I have so much faith in human nature eh? :)

[ArtyLady]

And some of those other skills- especially road positioning- could be trained. Hell, road positioning is an essential safety skill on a bike, I'd say if you can't choose a good road position you're going to be constantly in danger- your visibility is poor (in both senses), as well as being 3rd laned etc. That's what bothers me most about perennial CBT riders, you see them getting themselves into all sorts of terrible places that even a recent DAS passer will know are just bad news for a bike...


I agree- like I said before (cant remember if it was in this thread) on my DAS course I asked how do I go round corners - the instructor said - you dont need to know anything like that just stay upright in the middle of the lane and youll be fine!! :? :shock:

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Yup, that is true, but also IMHO totally unrealistic :) Even if the test covered every sort of riding and every condition that we ride in, which it can't, I don't think anybody rides that way every time they get on a bike. I have so much faith in human nature eh? :)

I think that pretty much proves my point.

[northwind]

Funny, i thought it proved mine. Seriously mate, do you ride as though you were on your test every day? I've never come across a driver or rider that does, and I don't think that "test manners" are the best way to ride, for that matter.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Funny, i thought it proved mine. Seriously mate, do you ride as though you were on your test every day? I've never come across a driver or rider that does, and I don't think that "test manners" are the best way to ride, for that matter.

I did when I first got my SV (my first bike). And thats the whole point of the test - the minimum safe standard, yet good enough to reasonably keep you from having an accident until you have more experience.

[fizzwheel]

I think that DAS is all well and good but only up to a point.

Things my instructors didnt cover, that I think now they should have.

Use of the back brake in traffic and during U-Turns
What happens in when you ride in the wet, i.e stuff like leaves, mud, manhole covers, white lines etc etc, yes they said "you have less grip" but they didnt really explain it..

I had the advantage well I think it was of 4 months solid every day riding in all types of weathers on a two stroke aprillia 125 trial bike, yes it wasnt fast but it taught me a lot and to be honest I loved thrashing the knackers of that little bike it was great fun

What am I trying to say.. I don't really know.. I think time spent on a smaller bike and the building up gradually is well spent. My Dad insisted that I didnt get my full license and spent some time on a small bike to build up my skills.. and I think it made me a better rider. Yes I take the point that other have made that you dont always have the power to get out of situations, but then again you dont have the power to get into them either, and riding that 125 at 55 - 60mph feels about the same as my SV does at 115 - 120mph on a private road of course officer.

I dont see how you can limit people to a small bike for 1 or 2 years though, all they'll do is insure one for two years, but not ride and then when the restriction is up go out and buy an un-restricted bike and go off and ride that.. which I think is lethal not riding for two years after taking your test and then getting back on a bike

Just my thoughts

[Mervin]

I got hit up the **** 3 months after passing.

Not my fault though!

[Sid Squid]

Bottom line: You cannot teach responsibility or experience

This may be the kiss of death but - FWIW I agree with FS, it's simply not possible, (even if it were desirable to do so, and I'm not sure it is, more later), to teach every single aspect of the disciplines necessary to succesfully ride a motorcycle, or a car, or a bicycle, or a helicopter for all I know.
When you are a novice, you will, by definition, make novices mistakes, can this realistically be avoided? I doubt it, whatever you may concentrate on and say: "This is the aspect we need to apply our teaching to", necessarily some other feature will become of less importance and not similarly weighted, possibly by not being taught it may become a "blind spot", in the understanding of drivers/riders, untaught = unimportant?
As things stand the process we have makes it quite apparrent, IMHO, that you are taught to a standard which allows you to take to the road without being an outrageous danger to either your-self or others, and that now you have a licence in your bin, you start learning that which cannot be possibly taught: experience.
I don't think it is a good idea to obsessively and in minute detail teach anything, riding included, in order to become a competent rider an individual will need to learn how it is done and reach suitable solutions to driving situations by their own process, what we really don't need is a nation of thoughtless drive by numbers automatons, when, as it inevitably will, things go tits up, we need people who have learned by experience to handle driving by reaction to circumstance, not by applying a standard fix. I fervently believe that only experience can do this.
And Prof's bang on, the present cancerous obsession with testing, more tests for this that and the other will only improve testing bureaucracy, not much else.
I think everone is going to have to accept that there is an element of risk in riding a motorcycle, (I hope you already do :) ), and whilst I wouldn't want to exacerbate that by filling the roads with clueless people who don't understand about road positioning, for example, what could we teach and where would it stop?
Learning to ride or drive isn't about learning how to manipulate the controls of a motor vehicle, it's about the understanding of the process, know that and you are a good rider, it can only be gained by hours in the saddle, only learnt by experience, I sincerely believe it can't be taught, at least not in manner that can readily be applied to the many that want a licence.
Fatalistic? No, I don't think so, only I've spent a lot of time doing this, I'll not claim to be an expert of any sort, but I am experienced, very, that and that only has made my riding the way it is, (I'm pleased to report that I have an enviable record of staying topside :D), and in that time it's become clear to me that the reason some people stay crap riders is nothing to do with the quantity or the quality of the training they received, any deficiency in their riding is 'cos their attitude is poor.
"It" can happen to anybody, the reality is that "it" keeps happening to the same people. I don't see any amount of training helping there.

[northwind]

I totally get where you're coming from, but I think you could do more to help people get through the inexperienced phase. If you have better cornering skills, you're less likely to come off when due to a lack of experience you go into a corner too hot, for example.

There's things that can be taught, and things that can't. But I for one would like to see a bit less time spent ****ing about practicing for foot up u-turns, and a bit more spent on useful stuff. For example.

At the end of the day, most riders going onto DAS testing will do 4 days training... And I just reckon there's a hell of a lot more you can do with 4 days training that'll make new riders more able to tackle that first few dodgy months. I reckon if the riding schools have so little faith in the DAS scheme, something's not right.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I totally get where you're coming from, but I think you could do more to help people get through the inexperienced phase. If you have better cornering skills, you're less likely to come off when due to a lack of experience you go into a corner too hot, for example.

Going into a corner too hot isnt due to a lack of ability to corner, its an over estimation of your own ability or a missjudgement of the corner. Both of which can still occur due to inexperience, neither of which can be overcome by training.

[Jabba]

Going into a corner too hot isnt due to a lack of ability to corner, its an over estimation of your own ability or a missjudgement of the corner.........

Or rank stupidity, of course :roll:

Both of which can still occur due to inexperience, neither of which can be overcome by training.

And stupid people will always be stupid.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Going into a corner too hot isnt due to a lack of ability to corner, its an over estimation of your own ability or a missjudgement of the corner.........

Or rank stupidity, of course :roll:

Both of which can still occur due to inexperience, neither of which can be overcome by training.

And stupid people will always be stupid.

I was trying to be tactful :shock:

[vtwinner]

Did DAS January 04 after riding off-road for two years, DAS suits some people not others, what I have had on my side is 17 years of driving experience doing circa 45,000 a year, road sense is something that you can only develop through experience, if you're a complete nobber you're gonna put a 125cc through a hedge the same as you'll put a 600cc through it.

Be honest with yourself, recognise what you're good at may be clutch control, awareness, slow speed control, and practice the areas that you need to improve.

[MavUK]

You don't evenneed to insure the bike - just have your lisence for two years...

From what you guy's have been saying I'm even more impressed with my instructor. I was the only student as he refuses to do groups (and still cost under 500), he went on in detail about why you don't ride on manhole colvers, white lines etc. Most definately didn't keep me on very straight roads, but did the whole country route twisties as well as town riding.

i suppose it just depends on how good your instructor is...

Stu

[Ceri JC]

I was talking to someone who runs a riding school and her take on the matter was, "If I could make a viable business out of it, I would only teach CBT as part of DAS, not a standalone. I'd only take people over 21, with a full car license already..."

Experience is important, no doubt- but I think training does matter too. Someone who has passed a test after CBT->125 is relatively untrained. They could then wait for 2 years (perhaps not even riding a 125 in that time)and get a full bike license, without ever having any tuition on a bigger bike. Personally, I'm glad I had already had a go on a "big bike", before I drove off the garage forecourt, into the middle of a city centre.

I've also noticed a mate who did cbt->125 more reckless on a big bike to begin with; he was used to being able to wind on full throttle in the middle of town, etc. Someone who has already had a go on one (hopefully in a car park, etc. first), will at least have a healthy respect for the differences between the two.

[northwind]

Going into a corner too hot isnt due to a lack of ability to corner, its an over estimation of your own ability or a missjudgement of the corner.........

I never said otherwise- but it's inexperience that causes people to panic and fall off the outside, where a little more training could give them the skill they need to get around. See? That's where training can compensate for inexperience and misjudgement, by getting you out of the mess you've got yourself into.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Going into a corner too hot isnt due to a lack of ability to corner, its an over estimation of your own ability or a missjudgement of the corner.........

I never said otherwise- but it's inexperience that causes people to panic and fall off the outside, where a little more training could give them the skill they need to get around. See? That's where training can compensate for inexperience and misjudgement, by getting you out of the mess you've got yourself into.

The skill of not panicing is a most valid point - but that only comes with experience. It can't be trained out of you

[carelesschucca]

Going into a corner too hot isnt due to a lack of ability to corner, its an over estimation of your own ability or a missjudgement of the corner. Both of which can still occur due to inexperience, neither of which can be overcome by training.

????????? Training will stop you barreling into a corner far to quickly, training will if taken properly make you a more observant rider who, can see the dangers and problems in the road earlier, and give you the understanding and knowledge to deal with them, and not just fill you knickers and bin the bike...

But what you've gotta think about is people who take the training in the first place are generally the more sensible riders out there!!! Doesn't make them slow and boring...

Sad facts are if we don't do it off our own back the people in power are going end up forcing us to take extra training...

[leatherpatches]

I think that DAS suits those who already have some on-road experience and have developed that 6th sense that's sometimes needed. DAS probably doesn't suit those at the other end of the spectrum of those who are able to do it, i.e. the 21-year old who's never riden/driven anything on the road before.

This post is most in line with my thinking. I had driven my car for 13 years before taking my DAS. Furthermore, I was 29 before I passed and bought my first bike.

Even with this, I got a bit carried away with the power and had a spill that cost me £1400 and a broken thumb, not to mention the scrapes, bruises and severe dent to the ego... :roll:

Had I passed at 21, with the type of nob I was then, I suspect I would not be here now.

I think that the DAS leaves far too much to individual responsibility. It lets you get on any size bike after just 5 days riding - nothing like enough, IMO. This works for some but could be disastrous for others.

HOWEVER, we live in an increasingly Nanny state and I would not like to see another learning and personal choice experience removed from us, even if it costs a few lives - really...!

[Ceri JC]

HOWEVER, we live in an increasingly Nanny state and I would not like to see another learning and personal choice experience removed from us, even if it costs a few lives - really...!

Yep, I'm not reckless, nor do I value life cheaply, but I really think too much emphasis is put on safety at the expense of all else. When talking about a national scale, a couple of deaths is nothing. What really winds me up is when people say, "Say that to the family of those couple of people..." what a stupid thing to say; no on is going to be less rational/impartial than one of those people.