Learner Riders, is it about time the law changed?.

[timwilky]

I have just followed three kids on scooters and L plates.

The one at the rear was really struggling. Wobbling and failing to maintain the 40mph speed of that section of road.

The first two indicated left and manouvred ok. I watched the tail end guy turn in front of me.

His approach was all wrong, no life saver and he blew it. Ended up entering the left turn on the opposing side of the road. If there had been any oncomming traffic I guess I would have been completing a police witness statement now.


I am not being elitist because I ride a bike and have a license, but what first drew my attention to these kids (I assume they are) was as I waited to pull onto the A6 and they passed in front of me was a total lack of any safety gear beyond helmets. Not even a pair of gloves.

Is it time to get rid of unaccompanied learners?. Make it a level playing field for all. I know this would remove the independance that sub 125 learners have.

But I now believe that a simple CBT does not fully equip a learner to ride unsupervised, especially with peer pressure from other more able learners.

[Scoobs]

I tend to agree with you here to some degree. The lad that I did my CBT with binned his bike, could not change gear properly, was constantly being told to speed up because he was going to slow etc. and he still passed his CBT. That can't be right.

[BillyC]

I think things are moving in this direction, slowly. Up until February 2002, if you passed your car test, you got a bundle of goodies thrown in as well, including Scooter provision up to 50cc's and not capable of more than 35mph (or something like that!).

Since February 2002, you get a licence to drive a car, and that's pretty much it... nothing else!


On that note though, the kids you saw, must've had CBT, unless they were riding illegally (entirely possible). However, I generally agree that the state of scooting is awful, not even following basic advice such as gloves, or in some cases, even a jacket! :shock:

I think inevitably, we will see the law try and move in the direction of compulsory acompanied instruction. However, this may be difficult looking at the equivilent laws in France and the rest of the continent, where I believe kids can ride scooters from as young as 14.

[Iansv]

does need to be stricter enforcement of the cbt for sure....

maybe passing some kind of proper test before riding anything unsupervised on the road would be the way to go

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Did they even have CBT certificates I wonder...

[Scoobs]

When I did my CBT the teacher was a good guy, but I can't help thinking they are on commission or something. A tick in the box etc. IMO the lad I was with wasn't safe to be on the road. For himself or for others. Hope he hasn't become a statistic.

[fizzwheel]

One of the guys on my DAS couldnt hardly ride, he couldnt turn right, change gear properly or do a U-turn and IMHO shouldnt have been on the road as he was wobbling all over the place.

I think that the schools issue the CBT and hope that people get better over the rest of their DAS training in that kind of circumstances..

As for the guy on the scooter that Tim saw I just think that is plain wrong

[Ceri JC]

It seems quite common for a lot of people who are only getting scooter as a "stop gap" before a car/whatever, to have no intention of doing any more than a CBT. They don't read up/practice any serious sort of riding and have no intention of passing a test.

Another worrying trend near me, is old people on scooters. Them seem to use them as a high powered (comparatively! :D ) alternative to mobility scooters. They're invariably overloaded with shopping, poorly ridden (often poorly maintained by the look/sound of them too) and the riders have no protective gear other than an open face helmet.

[lynw]

Ride did this a few months back of sending someone into different schools and the things they didnt cover or do was shocking... think MCN also picked it up and started covering the state of CBT training....

My mate has a cbt with only half an hours road ride... the result of that is hes too scared to go for his full licence cos hes not confident and terrified of getting on a bigger bike.

I had an accident the first time I went for my licence on my cbt road ride... basically instructor started telling me what I did wrong as I was at a junction and I lost concentration with him commenting over the radio... I hit the brakes hard while cornering... couldnt walk for a week... :evil:

took a year to decide to do it again and did it with the bmf on a weekly basis every saturday. I didnt go out on my road ride for 3 weeks and when I did I was so much more confident and able to control the bike.

But I would be surprised if half the scooter riders actually had a cbt. The one who nearly took me out on aldgate roundabout clearly doesnt understand a life saver is called that for a very good reason :roll:

[Kate]

Would it make a whole lot of difference? Who's to say that third rider actually had a CBT certificate?

How many people do we see driving a car who really really shouldn't be allowed near anything electrical, let alone a metal cage that allows them to do over 100 mph?

[Spiderman]

i think kids now days treat scooters etc the same way we all used to treat bicycles and bmx's when we were kids.
It gives some sense of freedom and independance but the cost is low, financially anyways.

When i lived in Spain it was exactly the same thing. Kids on scoots with little regard to their own safety and capability. Imagine how they dress in the summers there. Not much more than shorts most days.

i saw a guy yesterday, on a ped, who thought he was so sexy that he needed to have his shirt off and his lid balanced on his bonce as he rode along. It wasnt even that hot so he must have been really cold as he rode along. Hope he got stung on the nipples by angry wasps :D

My opinion is this. Let em.

The only way kids of that age learn is from their immeadiate circle of friends. If they see enough of them with bad scars and broken bones then they will think "I dont wanna be like that guy" So either they stop riding or get into the groove more and that includes real bikes and real gear.

Preaching to them about the dangers is about as usefull as preaching to us lot on this site about "speeding being the biggest cause of accidents"
Make it too hard for em and all they do is ride illegaly.

[msr]

Don't forget that CBT stands for Compulsory Basic Training. It is basic, it's not a test and it is not a replacement for an instructor. Perhaps it needs to be extended to two days.

msr

[northwind]

When I did my CBT, they were very strict about what they would or wouldn't pass... But not all schools are the same.

I think a bit more road riding would be a good investment... And one of my things is allowing people to ride a bike for work on CBT, I just don't think that should be allowed at all- one thing to bimble about at your own pace, another to get told "Take this to the other side of town in 15 minutes..."

[K]

Training aside it's the fact that many consider their Scooter as some form of fashion accessory along with thier mobile phone!

A change in the law to make wearing a minimum level of protective clothing would benefit the safety of these kids without having to try an break through to them with education.

Lets face it, you have to have a crash helmet - it's only the rare twit that ignore's this - and frankly they're better off not being around to pollute the gene pool!
So wearing British Standard approved gloves and a jacket with a minimum level of protection it a natural prograssion.

Espescially if dealers did more deals where a first-timer can get their scooter and all their training and protective gear in one hit.

It would be to the benefit of those summer bikers who ride around in T-shirts too - save'em leaving half their skin on the road after a 5mph spill. :wink:

[Spiderman]

A change in the law to make wearing a minimum level of protective clothing would benefit the safety of these kids without having to try an break through to them with education.

Never work on those kinda teens.And i for onewould always break it if it was really hot and i was going to the petrol station down the road to get ice or BBQ coals. Dont hate me for being honest :(

Lets face it, you have to have a crash helmet
What open those open faced fashion helmets. tho. I think they are so pointless in the event of anything more than a minor spill.

Espescially if dealers did more deals where a first-timer can get their scooter and all their training and protective gear in one hit.
Great idea cos at least they have it. To police the fact that they actually wear it is another thing tho isnt it.

It would be to the benefit of those summer bikers who ride around in T-shirts too - save'em leaving half their skin on the road after a 5mph spill. :wink:

Again...as an adult i can make choices about these things surley K. I'm suprised at you tbh. :D
I know its always better to wear my protective gear and on my trips to soho i wear it all. Trying to get 'those' kinda riders we are talking about to comform and comply is about as likely as oone of them agreeing to stop sending text messages on thier phones.
Its just part of their make-up and their age groups/peer pressures etc.
I rebelled in my own ways to rules....not like these %*^'ers do but the rules about certain things had no meaning to me. A little like how speed limits dont to <ahem> some bikers :lol:

Theyr idiots who will grow up one day if theyre lucky...if not, as you said, at least it'll clean up the gene pool a bit ;)

[Ed]

One of the guys on my DAS couldnt hardly ride, he couldnt turn right, change gear properly or do a U-turn and IMHO shouldnt have been on the road as he was wobbling all over the place.


Hey that was me.

My CBT was abysmal - we watched 2 boring videos, a few manoovers on the pan, then 45 mins on the road, I get a certificate.

I think Tim's right. It's the same here, young lads on scoots without a thought for their own or anyone else's safety, and, lyn, I too watch these kids go round roundabouts with no lifesavers. Not all their fault as they've never been trained. It has to be tightened up.

[northwind]

So maybe it's not so much that we need a change, more that the system as it stands needs fixing? I'm not joking when I say mine was strict- The first couple of times ere just disasters anyway, less said the better, but after the third I'd actually done alright- not done anything out and out stupid or dangerous, and mostly my riding was to a test standard... I was still a marginal fail- but I know other schools would have let me out after the second try, never mind the third.

But he was a complete a***hole... Never trust an instructor who rides a Ninja held together with duct tape :)

They lost a fortune on me as well- I paid for one cheap CBT on my own bike then did 3 £20 resits on one of the school's. If every school did the job to that standard then I doubt we'd be having this thread.

Here's a beauty... another local school passed my mate when he had to renew his CBT without even expecting him to turn up- just said "Give us £50 and we'll post you it, you must be OK if you've been riding for two years..."

[Mogs]

I passed my test for a full licence in 1983, No CBT/DAS stuff, it was a just two stage thing. One test off road, round a few cones, then the road. Three times round the block and the examiner runs down a foot path hoping to spot you. Easy.

I took training on the road as a voluntary thing, which was far more valuable.

I am not in favour of any more legislation, preventing bikers using the roads.

If we introduce a law stating gloves must be worn at all times, it won’t be long before some overzealous plod books you for sitting astride your bike at a filling station.

We have enough anti-bike law as it stands, all introduced with the best of intentions I’m sure, but there will always be fools, that think they are immortal, I did at that age. Bikers on the whole injure themselves, not anyone else.

So leave the law out of it, we as “responsible bikers” have a duty to educate by example. Dealers need to push for sales of safety gear with good marketing and competitive pricing.

If new bikers/scoots still are ignorant, then let nature be the educator. Lose a few square inches of skin and you wise up very fast.

[mysteryjimbo]

Using a vehicle on the road, is a privelage (?) not a right. People should have a minimum level of training before have access to higher powered bikes. Perhaps different levels ofs training should be introduced based on BHP to prevent new riders from having access to bike beyond their capabilites.

These teenage scoot people shouldnt have access to a vehicle at all without proper tuition and protection.

[timwilky]

My first bike as a learner was a GT250, I simply attached my L plates and set off down the road, learning as I went.

The learner system has had numerous overhauls since then, reduction to 125, CBT, Direct Access etc. But there is still something missing.

CBT is a training course at which you gain a certificate to say you have satisfactorly completed. It is not a test. A the end of the day the learner will have probably ridden on the road with an instructor for about an hour and then on quiet country lanes, and perhaps the odd busier junction etc.

Make the CBT a test at which you must demonstrate control, good observation etc. I think most riding schools would prefer to operate the CBT as a test, and reduce its validity to a year.

At least this would force learners to either upgrade to a full license or attend a refresher course.

[Skip]

Being a complete noob to road riding and just having passed my CBT I feel able to comment here. Personally I thought the CBT training was very basic, we did a few laps of a go-kart track, practiced pulling away and emergency stop and then straight out onto the road and into a busy town on market day! :shock: To say I was a little nervous was an understatement, but as it turned out it wasnt that bad, but I couldnt help thinking that we hadnt REALLY been shown that much before we were allowed out on the road...

I dont think it will be much longer before some sort of shake up happens again, the CBT definitely needs to be more involved and I think they should scrap the direct access and limit EVERYONE to a 33hp bike for 2 years (after I pass of course..! :P :lol: )

It will happen one day....

[SVeeedy Gonzales]

My CBT was pretty strict... with a mate who was an instructor at the place where he worked. First time I'd been on a bike and at the end of the day he suggested it wold be better for me to miss out on the road riding that day and come back in a week or two to do a bit more practice before doing the road riding bit.

Had to pay a bit more, though I'd rather be well trained and spend more. He said most people wouldn't put up with it though - that CBT should be a minimum 2 days but people would balk at the costs and more would ride illegally if that were the case.

There'll always be nobbers - be it on foot, on 4 wheels or on 2... I don't fancy the idea of massive admin. or government control just to catch a few people; if people want to take the risk then let them - natural selection and all that :twisted:

[Ceri JC]

When I did my CBT, they were very strict about what they would or wouldn't pass... But not all schools are the same.


Mine was pretty strict, they "failed" 2 people on the CBT whilst I was there. One kid's parents were being ****s about it, basically they'd insured the bike from that day and got it delivered to the school. They were hoping he could ride it home after passing the CBT that day. They complained about the inconveniance of leaving the bike there, having to pick the kid up, etc. The father said, "I know it's just a 'tick in the box' why can't you sign him off?!" The reply, "Because the way he was riding today, he'd get killed on the way home. I can sign him off now if you really aren't bothered, but I thought you'd rather wait another week and have a son who can walk at the end of it."

The parents saw sense at that :D

I disagree with them letting you do a "turn in the road" with your feet down on the CBT, instead of a proper u-turn. If people can't turn in the road on something like an ER-5, their slow control and balance is obviously a bit gash and they're likely to run into troubles at any time they need to move slowly on the bike. Other than that, I think a CBT that is stuck to is a reasonable basic level of training, but I still wonder if letting people out unsupervised on a 125 afterwards is wise.

[Jelster]

In about 5 weeks my Son will be 16. He wants a bike (not a scooter, he wants a 50cc bike...).

Our local training school (Passmasters in Northolt) will do a CBT plus 1 days additional training, 50% on road, 50% on the training area. He will then be able to "use" his bike, but will not get out on it alone until I am satisfied that he has the ability to stay alive.... I'll take him out on a few runs around the local area so he gets used to his bike first, and when I am confident that he is not too much of a danger to himself or others, he can have his freedom.

.

[diamond]

:riding: :winner:


If only there were more parents like you.

[Ceri JC]

In about 5 weeks my Son will be 16. He wants a bike (not a scooter, he wants a 50cc bike...).

Our local training school (Passmasters in Northolt) will do a CBT plus 1 days additional training, 50% on road, 50% on the training area. He will then be able to "use" his bike, but will not get out on it alone until I am satisfied that he has the ability to stay alive.... I'll take him out on a few runs around the local area so he gets used to his bike first, and when I am confident that he is not too much of a danger to himself or others, he can have his freedom.

.

Top marks, the perfect balance between being the hypocritical "Bikes are dangerous, I'm allowed one, you ain't" and the irresponsible, "It's your choice, do what you want". If he resents your presence on those first couple of rides and keeps asking when he can go out on his own, it might be worth you chaining his bike up when he's not around/making a note of his mileage. Other than that though, it sounds like a great idea.
:thumbsup:

[fizzwheel]

When I said to my dad I wanted a bike he made me agree to

1. Only doing my CBT to start with
2. Keeping my 125 for a period time that he was happy with, he stipulated a minimum of 6 months
3. He took me on ride on some quiet roads to observe my riding for one my first rides

When he was happy he gave me some gentle advice, i.e. dont ride in groups, stick at a speed you feel comfortable at and dont be pushed into doing things you dont want to do

When I talked about doing my DAS he was OK with that as he said I was ready to move up to a bigger bike, When I got my SV i talked to him about what he thought was suitable, we talked about a bandit, hornet, SV or a fazer as being suitable and once he could see I wasmt going to go out and get sports 600 he was happy with my decisions

I think it comes down to being responsible for your own actions at the end of the day, i was just glad my dad was there to give me sensible advice. Which I think is something not everybody is available benefit from

I beginning to feel the urge for something bigger and I've talked to him about this to

[diamond]

When i took my test in september i went to the bike shop to by a bike with my mum and dad, i was lookin at 600cc bikes my dad was lookin at 125cc. Fortunatly for me my mum just laughed at him and said if she's gonna be on a bike and kill herself at least give her a bit of power to try and get out of the way. Thats why they bought me my SV. Now i'm not to sure if actually she just wants me dead.

[Anonymous]

I would agree. My Mrs has just started to ride - she did a 2 day CBT course which was quite focused on road riding rather than the usual carpark stuff. While I think this is a much better way, I still think allowing green CBT riders full freedoms on the road (minus pillions and motorways) is a very dangerous thing.

I think there should be:

1. Compulsory theory tests for all drivers (to learn road signs, etc) before they even start.

2. A fully structured course that focuses on the road, not the car park or school playground. When I did my CBT, I went on the roads for a total of 20 minutes - I have a car license so it didn't matter, but for a novice I thought it was downright dangerous.

3. Compulsory test at the end of the course (similar to DVLA bike test) - not just "Here you go, Jonny!"

Or just scrap the whole thing and make people do it like a car test. You can't jump into a car and drive it on your own at 17 with L plates can you?! Why are bikes any safer?


Cheers,

[Jelster]

Or just scrap the whole thing and make people do it like a car test. You can't jump into a car and drive it on your own at 17 with L plates can you?! Why are bikes any safer?

At 16 you can only have 50cc and 50kph. People at 16 need some independence too. The CBT should be tougher and longer with a test at the end. When they achieve that things will get better.

.

[K]

A change in the law to make wearing a minimum level of protective clothing would benefit the safety of these kids without having to try an break through to them with education.

Never work on those kinda teens.And i for onewould always break it if it was really hot and i was going to the petrol station down the road to get ice or BBQ coals. Dont hate me for being honest :(

Lets face it, you have to have a crash helmet
What open those open faced fashion helmets. tho. I think they are so pointless in the event of anything more than a minor spill.

Espescially if dealers did more deals where a first-timer can get their scooter and all their training and protective gear in one hit.
Great idea cos at least they have it. To police the fact that they actually wear it is another thing tho isnt it.

It would be to the benefit of those summer bikers who ride around in T-shirts too - save'em leaving half their skin on the road after a 5mph spill. :wink:

Again...as an adult i can make choices about these things surley K. I'm suprised at you tbh. :D
I know its always better to wear my protective gear and on my trips to soho i wear it all. Trying to get 'those' kinda riders we are talking about to comform and comply is about as likely as oone of them agreeing to stop sending text messages on thier phones.
Its just part of their make-up and their age groups/peer pressures etc.
I rebelled in my own ways to rules....not like these %*^'ers do but the rules about certain things had no meaning to me. A little like how speed limits dont to <ahem> some bikers :lol:

Theyr idiots who will grow up one day if theyre lucky...if not, as you said, at least it'll clean up the gene pool a bit ;)

Open faced helmets at least protect your skull if not your face. Leaving you with the chance for reconstructive surgery rather than need for an undertaker.

I would far prefer positive education and training, but with the attitude of much of today's 'yoof' (god I feel old now) that maybe needs to be backed up somehow.

As for wearing stuff, isn't it supposedly true that most accidient happen within two miles of your home, on short or regular journey - like nipping out to the shops? To be honest with you though I find that reasoning a little weak myself...

... I simply prefer to think that the car that has my name on it doesn't care whether I'm nipping out for a couple of minutes, or a few hours. Nor does it care whether I'm travelling at 60, 30 or crawling along at 2mph.

I've seen what three feet of tarmac can do do flesh at 5mph - it was horrific. As was the pain and distress caused by the skin grafts and corrective surgery that followed.

I agree with you that everyone has the right to do with themselves as they will. I'm just also considering the knock-on effect to the National Health service that could so easily be avoided by a half decent jacket and gloves.

Sorry if I dissappoint anyone with this attitude, it's a selfish one I know - but I at least have the scars that grant me this indulgence. :(

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Or just scrap the whole thing and make people do it like a car test. You can't jump into a car and drive it on your own at 17 with L plates can you?! Why are bikes any safer?

At 16 you can only have 50cc and 50kph. People at 16 need some independence too. The CBT should be tougher and longer with a test at the end. When they achieve that things will get better.

.

Although what you say has merit, I don't see how it could be done. It's already been established that some schools running CBTs are reckless, so they can't be trusted with the testing. The DVLA would probably have to do it - if that's the case, might as well do the full test.

Personaly, I think that's what should happen. I don't see why anyone can ride around on a 125 for 2 years, then suddenly need testing, I think it should be done at the start.

[Red ones]

I'm certain that a large number of scooter riders have never been near CBT. As more scooters are stolen every year than sold, why bother with the other legalities, such as CBT, MOT, licence, blood alcohol etc?

You can do whatever you like on the legal training or protective clothing requirements until enforcement is improved. But enforcement means stopping people and checking then sensible deterrent. Do we really want to be stopped every 5 minutes to check our paperwork? Most of us want to keep heads down to avoid attention on our machines!

[northwind]

Is there not a new computer system traffic units have with a camera that checks plates against the owner's qualifications, disqualifications, road tax etc automatically and flags any with problems? (I saw a thing about it on some pointles crime program...)

[timwilky]

Interesting point there Northy

My local plod use ANPR. But whenever I have seen it actively deployed it is always pointing at oncoming traffic. So I guess they cannot or should that be do not pick up any passing bikers :)

I have absolutely no problem with the use of ANPR and if it can also get the passing rear plate and therefore include bikers so much the better if it gets unlicenced, uninsured or other alerts off the road. But I guess if they are going to check for non cbt then they are going to have to add cbts to the DVLA database

[kjames]

I think CBT's are a good idea. After all they give you a level of training that just wasnt there a few years back.

There's probably a balance between some Basic training and making everyone do their full test. If everyone had to do their full test it would make motorcycling difficult to get into and would probably reduce the overall number of riders.

k

[Jelster]

Or just scrap the whole thing and make people do it like a car test. You can't jump into a car and drive it on your own at 17 with L plates can you?! Why are bikes any safer?

At 16 you can only have 50cc and 50kph. People at 16 need some independence too. The CBT should be tougher and longer with a test at the end. When they achieve that things will get better.

.

Although what you say has merit, I don't see how it could be done. It's already been established that some schools running CBTs are reckless, so they can't be trusted with the testing. The DVLA would probably have to do it - if that's the case, might as well do the full test.

Personaly, I think that's what should happen. I don't see why anyone can ride around on a 125 for 2 years, then suddenly need testing, I think it should be done at the start.

Passing a test is NOT the real answer.

All a test does is prove that at that point in time you complete a number of actions correctly. What is needed is ongoing traing, a certain number of hours (say 50) before you can be let out on a bike on your own. Continous assesment is the way forward. When you reach a set standard you can then get a licence, but not pass a test. Tests are for theory not practical. Practical actions need to be assesed...

.

[454697819]

No absolutly not,

Im afraid there are bad riders both ends of the spectrum!

But this is sommat the gets me on my high horse.

Bad risers exist everywhere, i dont condone it and dont like it, i did my cbt and thought wow that was easy to get on the road, but what about cyclists, they dont even need insurance!!

Inexperianced borns again, can be just as bad as bad scooter riders if not the potential could be worse as they are likley to be on bigger bikes.

If ur gonna change it for the youngsters, change it for the oldies too..


my honest and blunt opinion

Alex

[SVeeedy Gonzales]

There could definitely be more checks in place - someone may have been away from driving cars or riding bikes for years and there's nowt to stop them getting right back into it, many years later on... I didn't get a car until 18 months after I passed the test. That made for great fun getting it home, about a 15 mile trip.

I bought a 125cc bike after failing DAS three times, and passed first time on the 125cc... but I'd have never gone and got the 125 without having already done several days on the DAS course and getting some proper skill. CBT is nowhere near good enough to allow people on the road without being accompanied, but until the law says otherwise, people will just assume that it's perfectly safe to do.

[JakeRS]

I was on L plates for a year and a half before I did my full (restricted) test last month, and I believe I'm actually a good rider. If there wasn't the option to ride on L plates I wouldn't have gained the experience I needed to pass my test. Maybe it should just be 50ccs/mopeds that are banned, 30mph restriction is mental and dangerous! At least my RS125 is capable of 100...

[JakeRS]

and also... I do think the CBT is too easy on kids. I think I already had the natural knowledge and awareness before I went to do my CBT and I had no trouble on the day at all.

[Couerdelion]

The thing that amazed me when I went to do my CBT was how little knowledge of the roads the youngsters had. Ok, I was 27 but I did my car test at 17 and spent months beforeI could even learn to drive learning what all the road signs meant etc. Some of the scooterboys didn't even know what a no entry sign was.

My CBT consisted of 3 hours in a school playground doing low speed manoeveres in the scooter and then 2 hours in the streets. They did fail people but were also very good teachers and I then used them to do my lessons for a 125 afterwards.

I do believe that the CBT should become a minimal test which can then be used towards the car license. ie make the youngsters do the theory test it's just as relevent to a 50cc scotter as a car.

[sparkymarky]

I did my CBT/Direct Access earlier this year and I was surprised (pleasantly) at how thorough it was. Basically it was a full day covering the usual off-road manouvers, then on-road riding covering busy town centre traffic and open country roads. I passed but I never felt like it was a foregone conclusion - partly because my riding was far from brilliant with it being my first time on a bike, but also the instructors kept re-iterating the importance of meeting a standard they were happy with - ie: that if you passed you were safe enough to go out on the road on your own. One of the guys I was with didn't pass because he was weaving about a bit and couldn't maintain a reasonable road speed.
Like I said I was happy it was that thorough as I wasn't terribly confident about my abilities and it gave me the confidence to then go on and do my direct access.
I guesss some trainers aren't as thorough though as some people were telling me it would be over and done with in a couple of hours.

[northwind]

The thing that amazed me when I went to do my CBT was how little knowledge of the roads the youngsters had. Ok, I was 27 but I did my car test at 17 and spent months beforeI could even learn to drive learning what all the road signs meant etc. Some of the scooterboys didn't even know what a no entry sign was.


To be honest, I was quite clueless with this too, one of the things that held me back on the road ride itself. So I agree, theory test should be a requirement before you do CBT. It's a fairly small thing but definately worth doing IMO.

[Jabba]

I think that the schools issue the CBT and hope that people get better over the rest of their DAS training in that kind of circumstances..

Trouble is that a CBT lasts for two years..........that guy on your DAS could, in theory, have not riden a bike for almost two years...........

Yeah - it's a bout time the law was changed, not so much for the unaccompanied learners but to have shorter period for which a CBT was valid.

[Toypop]

At the end of the day young kids are able to ride horses on the road without having to do a test and those things can accelerate quicker than mopeds and can decide at any moment to go where they want as opposed to where the rider wants. They also do far more damage to a car than a moped in an accident.

My little brother was run over by a horse on a school playing field (at least the ped boys around my way don't do that) that was being ridden by a young girl of about 12 and was lucky to escape with just a cut lip.

So why all the fuss about CBT's and mopeds?

I think the CBT is fine so long as standards are maintained consistently across the board.

[Paws]

It took me 3 attempts at my cbt before i passed (hated my instructor the first 2 times so i didnt really put my full effort into it)

Dont put ALL us L platers in the same bracket as those scooter kids,i passed my cbt nearly 2yrs ago now, but vowed NOT to ride on the road until id done some lessons, which im doing now.Scooter kids dont seem to care about wearing the right kit/lifesavers etc as more often than not, like its been said, they are a stop gap until they get car.

I think there should be more to the cbt, i mean you cant drive a car on the road after just one day of training can you???

[Toypop]

You can drive a car on the road without a single days formal training.

On your 17th Birthday you can jump straight into a Porsche with your 21 year old mate in the passenger seat and a set of L plates stuck on it. Or do you have to do the theory first these days?

My CBT was pretty thorough. In fact that is the only formal training I ever had! I passed my CBT July 93 and rode my Honda 100 until May 94 and did my test without having any lessons. A mate of mine had paid to do a weeks intensive lessons for the test and told me the only difference that they teach you was the U Turn! So I thought stuff paying £130 as it was back then for a weeks course, applied for my test and passed!

[ak_uk]

It's a shame that DAS courses are geared up for getting you to pass the test and when they succeed - you are on your own really....

[northwind]

At the end of the day young kids are able to ride horses on the road without having to do a test and those things can accelerate quicker than mopeds and can decide at any moment to go where they want as opposed to where the rider wants. They also do far more damage to a car than a moped in an accident.


Yep, but most kids neither want or can afford a horse- they're incredibly expensive to maintain, and the service intervals are very short.

[Paws]

At the end of the day young kids are able to ride horses on the road without having to do a test and those things can accelerate quicker than mopeds and can decide at any moment to go where they want as opposed to where the rider wants. They also do far more damage to a car than a moped in an accident.

My little brother was run over by a horse on a school playing field (at least the ped boys around my way don't do that) that was being ridden by a young girl of about 12 and was lucky to escape with just a cut lip.

So why all the fuss about CBT's and mopeds?

I think the CBT is fine so long as standards are maintained consistently across the board.

Oh please do NOT start on us horse riders! (yes i ride horses/in laws have 2), do you seriously think we enjoy HAVING to ride on the road??? I CANNOT get to a single bridleway/field without having to ride accross at least 2/3 roads! and i ahte it, the only good thing though is ive NEVER had a biker be a part when passing me, its ALWAYS car drivers.

[lukemillar]

There is an estate behind me, where a number of the kids have scooters and I doubt they have a CBT, tax, MOT, insurance between them. They hoon about the place wear tracksuit bottoms, T-shirts and perch their helmets on the tops of their heads. I also don't see how they could all afford to buy scooters at the age of 15-16.

They are a liability to themselves and anyone who happens to be near them when they are riding. Finding out the hard way may be fair enough for them, but not the innocent bystander.

They also are canny little b**ards - I was waiting at some lights a while ago, when a (unrelated) police siren went off behind us. There were 2 kids on a scooter in front. As soon as they heard the siren, the pillion reached behind, pulled off the number plate, and they then proceeded to ride through the red light. :shock: I have also noticed that when they carry pillions, they are clued up enough to remove their L-plates.

I don't think the problem lies with the CBT, because as people have said, if they don't have a CBT, then introducing a harder test isn't going to matter. I think it should be the police's responsibilty to do something, though given their age, I don't know what. Even if they confiscated their machines, it's just going to result in some other person's scooter being nicked to replace it. The problem seems to be getting worse as there is one kid who is now hooning about on a RS125 (still wearing trademark tracky bottoms and T-shirt). I just wonder how long it will be before they start sniffing around my SV. :?

[Biker Biggles]

Some of the complaints on this thread sound a bit like they could have been written a few years ago and aimed at me and my then mates.(OK a couple of decades ago :oops: )I don't mean to upset anyone,but I would caution against being too holier than thou.about the younger riders.Many of them are the next generation of bikers and are an endangered species in today's nanny state.

[chazzyb]

Many of them are the next generation of bikers and are an endangered species in today's nanny state.

:smt038 .

Quite right, but it is frightening watching them! I really can't remember how I behaved at 16 on my Mobylette. I started wearing gloves pretty quickly as my hands got cold - I pinched my dad's driving gloves. I was also bought and wore a Millets repro flying jacket that stank of dead sheep :P This was just before helmets were required by law, though I always wore one. I also found that riding with a roll-up in your mouth meant the hot ash went in your eyes. :oops:

[Ceri JC]

When I did my CBT the teacher was a good guy, but I can't help thinking they are on commission or something. A tick in the box etc. IMO the lad I was with wasn't safe to be on the road. For himself or for others. Hope he hasn't become a statistic.

I think the problem is that a lot of people only ever do CBT to ride a scooter/125 and have no intention of ever progressing past that/taking their test; kids get scooters to last until they are old enough/can afford a car and for many, 2 years is plenty. As you say, it's viewed as a "tick in the box", to allow you to use the roads, rather than to just be allowed to practice for your test (which arguably should be the intention).

As a result, a lot of people see the CBT as akin to an MOT; schools who "fail" you on don't get the repeat business from you or recommendation from others. The place I did my CBT said that they were quite blunt with people who weren't up to scratch and didn't want to pass them, but offered them another days free training. You would think the people would be chuffed to bits at getting more training for nothing, but instead regularly had a go at them. The owner told me how she spoke to some kid's parents who came to complain about him being failed. She explained that they weren't obliged to pass people, but that if the parents really wanted their son to "come home in a box" that badly, she'd gladly sign the paperwork. :lol:

The absence of a 'test' element from the day is quite worrying. If someone already has a car licence; fair enough, provided they take to bikes quickly, a CBT will probably just about give them enough basic bike control that they won't be much of a danger on the roads. If however, you have never been on the roads before, is half a day (1-2 hours actual road riding in some places) really sufficient time to gain adequate practical experience of how roads work? If so, why do most people need to take 20-30 hours of car lessons? :-k

[Biker Biggles]

You must be even older than me Chazzy. :wink:
I used to wear an old firemans greatcoat and ex army despatch rider gloves on my highly tuned Bantam that could do over 60 down hill.Old newspapers down the front for winter lining,but I never kept my knees warm.The greatcoat was good for sliding down tarmac though,and was even waterproof for about half an hour.Lids were compulsory and I did wear one. :D

[Ceri JC]

Many of them are the next generation of bikers and are an endangered species in today's nanny state.

I'd argue that the vast majority of scooter riders I see near me are the next generation of chavs in Corsas...

Just because a lot of bikers started out on scooters, doesn't follow that most scooter riders progress to bigger bikes these days (although maybe a few decades ago, that may have been the case :wink:)

I do agree that a lot of the "making it harder to start biking" legislation needs to be challenged; the talk of raising the full licence age to 24 rather than 21 is a bit OTT.

[timwilky]

Bloody hell who dug this thread out of the forum cemetery.


TBH I think my views have not changed since I first posted this topic. I see numerous kids on peds and cringe, They think they on invulnerable, but their road skills are terrible. I would much rather that following a CBT a learner was required to be accompanied by a qualified rider. By qualified I don't mean an instructor, but someone who has held a licence for a minimum of two years.

The two year life of a CBT is wrong. I would rather see it as a proper course/test, so probably over a full weekend. Of course the price would double, but if you cannot afford £200 to learn to stay alive, you cannot afford a bike/insurance etc anyway.

It is my personal opinion that the kids I perceive as being a problem have never used a road prior to getting their peds at 16, IE ridden a push bike so even basic observation is a new concept, they have no understanding of signs, need for planning of manoeuvres etc.

[Ed]

Well the bike test is about to get tougher. One of the better EU directives I think. Here in S'bury we're getting a new test centre to cope - with an off road pan so as to demonstrate basic competence to the examiner before you get onto the road. Dunno 'bout CBT though.

[ArtyLady]

Oh please do NOT start on us horse riders! (yes i ride horses/in laws have 2), do you seriously think we enjoy HAVING to ride on the road??? I CANNOT get to a single bridleway/field without having to ride accross at least 2/3 roads! and i ahte it, the only good thing though is ive NEVER had a biker be a part when passing me, its ALWAYS car drivers.

Doesnt it drive you mad when they start :x - Horses were on the road first :rant:

My horse was so good on the road - bikers are usually great - allways go past slowly - had several incidents with car drivers tho - the worst one was a Porsche Boxter - ******** decided to keep coming at me on a single track road with high banks I had knowhere to go - even tho I held my hand up and asked him to stop he just kept coming squeezing past about 1 inch away from my foot - I thought he would hit us so I just shut my eyes, breathed in and cos my horse was so good he just plodded on ignoring the whole incident. Lucky escape for me the horse and the Porsche :shock: :lol:

Back on the topic of the thread -

Im a firm believer in the CBT being much more intense - I got through mine no probs but then Id driven a car for 25 years but I still felt woefully inadequate to be let loose on the road on a bike that I could barely change gear on ! The guy who took us failed the young lad that was with me - he said he would need a days training to really master it - so rspect to him for not just letting him take to the road. 8)

Passed my DAS second time but that was then just the beginning of building up "proper" skills, then I took some advanced training and I still dont feel I could really handle a more powerful bike. I believe that after the test you should only be able to ride up to a 500 and then take another test after some advanced training before getting on to anything more powerful.

My OH took his bike test in 1978 - 3 times round the block and an emergency stop that was it!! passed.

[Godikus]

I'm quite surprised at how many people here have said they have had so little time out on the road. the legal requirement is a minimum of 2 hours on the road, and the DSA are quite strict about enforcing it on the riding schools. If a riding school isn't giving proper instruction, and not taking people out long enough then i really think people sould be reporting them to the DSA. If nothing is done about shoddy instructors then of course riding standards from young riders are going to go down the pan.

The CBT when done properly i think is enough to let you loose. The problem is when it isn't done properly. when they are let off early, or if the instructor misses any parts of the CBT.

[didge]

i was told you cant fail a cbt? IMO i think that every one should have a test before they can drive on the road..

[northwind]

i was told you cant fail a cbt? IMO i think that every one should have a test before they can drive on the road..

Well, you can't fail it, since it's not a test. But you can be refused your certificate, which is the same thing. Semantics.

[Vfr400]

In Cambridge tonight i saw 2 idiots on scooters racing each other using the cycle lane to undertake moving traffic and typically no protective gear other than a helmet! Another accident statistic waiting to happen :cry:

chris

[seedy100]

Wen I did my CBT we got the full two hours on the road.

I "Passed" and got the certificate, but to be honest I felt that I was unsafe to be on the road.

I was unhappy with the trainer and the school.
As I said I didnt feel that I was anything like safe, but there were a couple who were worse than me who were also given their certificates. The whole objective of the trainer seemed to be to get you signed up for the DAS as soon as possible.

I cancelled the DAS I had booked and rebooked with another school, including another CBT.

This was a totally different experiance and I was happy with both the CBT trainer and the guy who took the DAS.

I cant say "You get what you pay for" though, because the second school was actually cheaper than the one I had originally booked.

[quikstu]

I have just followed three kids on scooters and L plates.

The one at the rear was really struggling. Wobbling and failing to maintain the 40mph speed of that section of road.

The first two indicated left and manouvred ok. I watched the tail end guy turn in front of me.

His approach was all wrong, no life saver and he blew it. Ended up entering the left turn on the opposing side of the road. If there had been any oncomming traffic I guess I would have been completing a police witness statement now.


I am not being elitist because I ride a bike and have a license, but what first drew my attention to these kids (I assume they are) was as I waited to pull onto the A6 and they passed in front of me was a total lack of any safety gear beyond helmets. Not even a pair of gloves.

Is it time to get rid of unaccompanied learners?. Make it a level playing field for all. I know this would remove the independance that sub 125 learners have.

But I now believe that a simple CBT does not fully equip a learner to ride unsupervised, especially with peer pressure from other more able learners.

As I call it................"Moped mentality".

Danger to themselves at times.

:smt102

[Xerbraski]

I did my CBT a few weeks back.

There were only three of us learning that day: myself, a lad having his second attempt at CBT on 125's and some 35yo fella doing his on a 50cc scooter.

Started about 9:00am, was given a general chat about clothing, saftey and was then taken outside to have a bit of chat about the bikes (where the controls, choke, brakes, gears are and how they work etc).
Easy for me as i've riden loads before, but I listened anyway.

After about an hour of chatting we spent about 2hrs riding off-road gettin used to the bikes, doing figure of eights around cones, and practiced about three emergency stops.

Had an hour break for dinner and was thrown out on the road at 1:00am.
As soon as you leave the training ground you are thrown 'into the deep end' onto a major Liverpool road, what with the training ground being squeezed between the M57 and M62 let's just say it a bit busy :wink:

Within my first 10-15 mins on the road I made a massive faux par (and i've ridden before)
Probably due to the fact, i'd only just been given a bike-to-bike intercom (which i've never used before), still trying to get used to the bike, being bombarded with instructions, me leading the pack and some due to nerves and that.
The mistake could of cost me my life, and maybe someone elses, thankfully everything was fine and dandy.

Another thing which is a bit offputting is when the instructor is reminding another learner in the pack to cancel indicators, move over, check your blindspots etc and i'm like looking down at my controls or whatever thinking he/she is talking to me, taking my focus off the road when really she/he is talking to the other rider.
Couple this with busy traffic and only being on the road for 15 mins and it's information overload, a hell of a lot to take in.

The 30yo fella on the scooter got last minute nerves and decided to come back for another go at his CBT, I think it was too soon for him to go on the road, can't say I blame him.
The other young lad I was with was having his seccond attempt at CBT, when it came to doing the U-turns he kept on putting his foot down or loosing balance, the instructor said to him "i'll give you one last try, if you don't do it this time we're going back to base" (or words to that effect).
On his final attempt he got halfway round the U-turn, tensed up, mounted the kerb and nearly shot up someones driveway, felt sorry for him, probably just got tense and started to concentrate too much.
The instructor let him off with it because he still had the bike under a controlled stop, albeit on the pavement.

Anyway at the end of the day we both got our CBT certificates, managed my U-turns ok, if a bit wobbly, though I did do a really good one which impressed the intructor, didn't even think about it, just did it and it came naturally just like when I used to ride.

We had six hours on the road, yes 6hrs!!!. A total of a 9hrs for CBT :P
Probably due to the fact it was a very nice day and the instuctor was just enjoying the ride and away with the fairies.

To the point in question though, Yes I think CBT should be done over two days.
One day practicing off-road to get used to the bike etc and the next day involving on-road experience and your evaluation of weather you are a competent enough rider to recieve your certificate.
In my oppinion 2/3 hours just isn't enough practice before being thrown onto the road because there is a hell of a lot to remember and get used to.
And thats comming from someone whos ridden before on the road, god knows how a complete novice feels.

The End.

[jimmy4237]

When I did mine about 5 years ago, the instructor was strict, and made you do two days. One was off-road manouvering, stoppies, driving round cones etc. The next day was spent of 3 hours on the road. This guy obviously had a bad night, as he was barking instructions like a mad army seargant, and wanted everything done properly to a basic test standard before he'd issue the CBT certificates..

Turns out he was an ex-army physical instructor in his past life :lol: After he got demobbed, he became an even tougher bike instructor. Nice easy progession..

He made us do the CBT's on 125cc geared machines, and wasn't a fan of twist and go scooters.. Then again he did follow us on the road on a GSX 1400 with twin race pipes :P

I agree with the twin radio earpiece part. I got confused with the other boy who was doing his CBT, and I turned down the wrong road, kept going and lost the instructor.. he did say take the next left and keep going :roll: :roll: I eventually realised they weren't behind me after 5 minutes down a nice country road, and had to backtrack to go look for them :lol: :lol: Turns out they stopped for lunch in a cafe 5 minutes away wondering where I'd gone.... He should have said my name first before ordering commands over a radio.. Also gave me 10/10 for managing to locate him and his other escaped convict..

[fizzwheel]

My CBT instructor prefaced everything he wanted to say that was direct at the bike in front of him with "Bike In Front" and everyting he wanted to direct to the bike behind him with "bike behind"

I did 2hrs riding round cones and two hours on the road and I passed my CBT. Mind you I had spent four or five afternoons riding my 125 bike round a field being taught what to do by my brother and dad.

[5hort5]

I done my CBT about 10 years ago and it was rather tough although I got through. I have been riding a Sachs XTC racing 125 for the last couple of months (first bike in three years) but it was v slow so a good m8 of mine was always going on about how good SV's were so I brought a K3 and picked it on the weekend, you can imagine the difference but the good thing with it was the dealer I brought it from offers a 1 hour rider appreciation session for free with bikes over 500cc so I have an hour to brush up on old techniques that I use and may prompt me to have a few more sessions (we’ll see how it goes). I will be taking this offer up just after I have got used to the basic handling of the bike. I think the dealer had a very good idea with this and it's on all bike sales they do for larger bikes.