View Full Version : Careless Driving Conviction
coombest
29-04-05, 03:03 PM
I have today found out that the driver that knocked me off my bike last November was convicted of 'Careless or Inconsiderate Driving' on the 14th of April. He received a fine and had his licence endorsed.
I am a bit hacked off that the Police didn't inform my Solicitor of the date of the curt case, as I would have liked to have gone!
Currently I do not know what fine and how many points he got for coming very close to killing me through simply not looking!
Does anyone know if I can find this information out online at all?
My Solicitor is away for a week now but his colleague is going to contact the Police for a copy of the police report but I doubt that would include this!
I have searched some sites already but can't find anything... My local paper's website search isn't working at the moment, so I can't even search on that!! :evil: :evil:
I just want to laugh at how lightly I'm sure he must have got away with it!
Flamin_Squirrel
29-04-05, 03:17 PM
What would you consider getting away lightly? :?
Dude...
Well... it's certainly a result. I would imagine 6 points and a few hundred quid. However, if he was convicted in a court, it's a public place and will be documented. Contact the court, and ask how you can find this information, as there should be a public record.
Oh.. I guess that relies on knowing the guy's name.
Anyway, in the meantime, this should now give his insurance company a huge kick up the backside... they have no cause to delay now, they're guilty as sin, and it's time to cover you in cash! :twisted:
I came here to say exactly the same thing as bill, but he got there first.
It's bound to be on the court's minutes or something - i doubt yer local paper will go into the exact details of the fine, so the court's your best bet.
do you have more details.. as so far I've only found this story..
DRIVER IN COURT AFTER CRASH ON THE A22 (http://www.eastbournetoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=566&ArticleID=925094)
do you have more details.. as so far I've only found this story..
DRIVER IN COURT AFTER CRASH ON THE A22 (http://www.eastbournetoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=566&ArticleID=925094)
An accident in Eastbourne yes... but not the one involving Tim.
The A22 is a very dangerous bit of road. The Police motorcyclists hate it, and have tried to make the local authorities aware of how dangerous and bad a road it is - but so far no improvement. :roll:
Thats good news Tim, should help the claim get finished off a bit quicker....
hope he got a fine in the thousands and not hundreds but i doubt it
Magistrates fined her £250, ordered her to pay £43 court costs and imposed eight penalty points.
That's what she got, and by the sounds of the rest of the report, the driver that knocked Tim off was more negligent, and caused more damage and suffering to Tim (not just his leg, but damaged from head to toe, litterally ;) ).
So, considering it'd be the same court, I'd expect a similar conviction. :evil:
Magistrates fined her £250, ordered her to pay £43 court costs and imposed eight penalty points.
That's what she got, and by the sounds of the rest of the report, the driver that knocked Tim off was more negligent, and caused more damage and suffering to Tim (not just his leg, but damaged from head to toe, litterally ;) ).
So, considering it'd be the same court, I'd expect a similar conviction. :evil:
Depends on who the magistrate was.. as I've found out before...
What would you consider getting away lightly? :?
a fine and points is lightly Jordan....
and Tim not being told about the court date is what worries me that van mans case is going to happen the same way and I wont know what happens...
gonna ring the police on Tuesday now.....
Flamin_Squirrel
29-04-05, 05:20 PM
a fine and points is lightly Jordan....
What do you think a more suitable punishment would be then?
well you tell me are you going to be happy if van man walks with £250 fine and 3 points? because thats what youre saying he should get for pulling out in front of me... :evil:
I wouldnt be... I think if you cause serious injury it should be a severe fine ie thousands or jail time...
until people start to realise driving irresponsibly, recklessly and dangerously is going to actually carry some form of punishment in terms of severe fines/jail time people are going to carry on driving stupidly... after all £250 and 6 points for taking you out is reasonable in your book isnt it? But what incentive is that for them not to do it again? None.
when it happens to you and see the guy walk away scott free with a joke of a sentence then you may reconsider...
Flamin_Squirrel
29-04-05, 05:28 PM
well you tell me are you going to be happy if van man walks with £250 fine and 3 points? because thats what youre saying he should get for pulling out in front of me... :evil:
I wouldnt be... I think if you cause serious injury it should be a severe fine ie thousands or jail time...
until people start to realise driving irresponsibly, recklessly and dangerously is going to actually carry some form of punishment in terms of severe fines/jail time people are going to carry on driving stupidly... after all £250 and 6 points for taking you out is reasonable in your book isnt it? But what incentive is that for them not to do it again? None.
when it happens to you and see the guy walk away scott free with a joke of a sentence then you may reconsider...
I wasn't talking about van man - he should be locked up and have the key thrown away. I was refering to the man that hit Tim.
well you tell me are you going to be happy if van man walks with £250 fine and 3 points? because thats what youre saying he should get for pulling out in front of me... :evil:
I wouldnt be... I think if you cause serious injury it should be a severe fine ie thousands or jail time...
until people start to realise driving irresponsibly, recklessly and dangerously is going to actually carry some form of punishment in terms of severe fines/jail time people are going to carry on driving stupidly... after all £250 and 6 points for taking you out is reasonable in your book isnt it? But what incentive is that for them not to do it again? None.
when it happens to you and see the guy walk away scott free with a joke of a sentence then you may reconsider...
I wasn't talking about van man - he should be locked up and have the key thrown away. I was refering to the man that hit Tim.
but why is van man different? because he assaulted me? my injuries from that accident were miraculously light... so what makes it different?
Look at the injuries Tim sustained - hes still in recovery even now... and youre telling me £250 and 6 points is sufficient punishment for the pain and injuries Tim has suffered? Personally I dont think so...
Flamin_Squirrel
29-04-05, 05:34 PM
Van man deliberately caused the accident then ATTACKED you. How is that anything like what happened to Tim?
ok.... someone on a roundabout takes you out... injures you for months... leaves you in pain for months.... tell you what why dont you just admit its your fault for being on the road then?
and then just let him drive away without a care in the world to do it to someone else... because unless these people are punished for their recklessness, carelessness or stupidity they wont learn and next time they may kill another biker because theyve got no reason to care with joke sentences that youre advocating.
Flamin_Squirrel
29-04-05, 05:42 PM
ok.... someone on a roundabout takes you out... injures you for months... leaves you in pain for months.... tell you what why dont you just admit its your fault for being on the road then?
and then just let him drive away without a care in the world to do it to someone else... because unless these people are punished for their recklessness, carelessness or stupidity they wont learn and next time they may kill another biker because theyve got no reason to care with joke sentences that youre advocating.
What joke sentances? I didn't suggest any. I asked what you thought would be a reasonable punishment for the person who hit Tim.
ok.... someone on a roundabout takes you out... injures you for months... leaves you in pain for months.... tell you what why dont you just admit its your fault for being on the road then?
and then just let him drive away without a care in the world to do it to someone else... because unless these people are punished for their recklessness, carelessness or stupidity they wont learn and next time they may kill another biker because theyve got no reason to care with joke sentences that youre advocating.
What joke sentances? I didn't suggest any. I asked what you thought would be a reasonable punishment for the person who hit Tim.
well when I said a fine and points was light and you came back with what would be appropriate that implied to me that you thought a fine and points was sufficient and all other replies to my posts seemed to confirm that.
What do you think the guy who hit tim should get then?
Flamin_Squirrel
29-04-05, 05:59 PM
ok.... someone on a roundabout takes you out... injures you for months... leaves you in pain for months.... tell you what why dont you just admit its your fault for being on the road then?
and then just let him drive away without a care in the world to do it to someone else... because unless these people are punished for their recklessness, carelessness or stupidity they wont learn and next time they may kill another biker because theyve got no reason to care with joke sentences that youre advocating.
What joke sentances? I didn't suggest any. I asked what you thought would be a reasonable punishment for the person who hit Tim.
well when I said a fine and points was light and you came back with what would be appropriate that implied to me that you thought a fine and points was sufficient and all other replies to my posts seemed to confirm that.
What do you think the guy who hit tim should get then?
I do think a fine/points is sufficient for the guy who hit Tim (or perhaps a temporary ban).
He was a family man who made a mistake, albeit a serious one. It wasn't intentional, nor would I think he's likely to ever make it again. I don't underestimate the pain it caused Tim, but the guy has been punished and I don't see it would actualy benefit anyone to take licence away for good.
Van man on the other hand did not make a mistake - it was intentional. Therefore, I think he deserves to find himself under the wheels of a lorry.
21QUEST
29-04-05, 06:25 PM
I do think a fine/points is sufficient for the guy who hit Tim (or perhaps a temporary ban).
He was a family man who made a mistake, albeit a serious one. It wasn't intentional, nor would I think he's likely to ever make it again. I don't underestimate the pain it caused Tim, but the guy has been punished and I don't see it would actualy benefit anyone to take licence away for good.
Van man on the other hand did not make a mistake - it was intentional. Therefore, I think he deserves to find himself under the wheels of a lorry.
Well said. Have a beer on me.
Cheers
Ben
coombest
29-04-05, 06:42 PM
:shock: OMG - it's all kicked off!! :lol: :wink: :roll: :wink:
I didn't think the white van man caused the accident intentionally in Lyn's case - it was what he did afterwards that was clearly intentional! :shock:
In my accident, the guy made an error of judgement but it was a serious one however, when I saw the accident photos, from the position of the car on the road, there was little doubt that he had seen me and decided the best course of action was not to stop but to accelerate... In my direction! :shock:
I was rather seriously injured in that I sustained 6 broken bones in 5 places and was unconscious and not breathing in the road.
I now have a very poor memory, lots of pain (still) and I can't do my job properly (luckily, I have been able to slightly change what I do for the same company although ther are still many things I am unable to do). Nor can I ride my bike for long, excercise sensibly or do anything too physical for what I would see as a 'normal' amount of time yet.
Looking at how long it has taken me to get to this state, having received some very good intensive physio and working very hard at it, as well as knowing that I am now running out of patience and determination in the face of the difficulties I am experiencing, I would imagine it will take another 6-9 months at least before I am anywhere near normal again (it's been over 5 months since the accident already).
So - frankly, I don't personally think that even 8 points and a £250 fine is alot. I would be much happier if he were given a driving ban as well as some points & a fine - even if he were only banned for 3 months it makes the point and will affect his insurance, etc. more than simply points alone and would necessitate him taking another driving test.
a fine and points is lightly Jordan....
What do you think a more suitable punishment would be then?
flogging and put in the stocks.... 8)
:shock: OMG - it's all kicked off!! :lol: :wink: :roll: :wink:
I didn't think the white van man caused the accident intentionally in Lyn's case - it was what he did afterwards that was clearly intentional! :shock:
In my accident, the guy made an error of judgement but it was a serious one however, when I saw the accident photos, from the position of the car on the road, there was little doubt that he had seen me and decided the best course of action was not to stop but to accelerate... In my direction! :shock:
I was rather seriously injured in that I sustained 6 broken bones in 5 places and was unconscious and not breathing in the road.
I now have a very poor memory, lots of pain (still) and I can't do my job properly (luckily, I have been able to slightly change what I do for the same company although ther are still many things I am unable to do). Nor can I ride my bike for long, excercise sensibly or do anything too physical for what I would see as a 'normal' amount of time yet.
Looking at how long it has taken me to get to this state, having received some very good intensive physio and working very hard at it, as well as knowing that I am now running out of patience and determination in the face of the difficulties I am experiencing, I would imagine it will take another 6-9 months at least before I am anywhere near normal again (it's been over 5 months since the accident already).
So - frankly, I don't personally think that even 8 points and a £250 fine is alot. I would be much happier if he were given a driving ban as well as some points & a fine - even if he were only banned for 3 months it makes the point and will affect his insurance, etc. more than simply points alone and would necessitate him taking another driving test.
exactly... Im with you on this one Tim.... and so will Jordan when it happens to him and his bikes written off completely and hes limping around for months....
the point is if people dont get punished for "mistakes" they'll keep making them till they kill someone. You cant decide if an accident was deliberate or a mistake. Most mistakes are caused by inattention, carelessness and not driving with due care and attention. If the punishments remain stupidly paltry for the pain and suffering caused to the victims then people wont change how they drive.
I for one want harsher sentences til it gets rammed home the fact when you drive a car you HAVE to pay attention, and its not a pleasure ride at blackpool you can relax and do as you please.
Agree on the light sentencing... A car is a lethal weapon.... you get in major trouble now for carring a knife and yet cars are just as dangerous with some of the muppets on the roads now...
anyway... You've made an amazing recovery Tim and long may it continue, I certainly don't think i'd have coped so well
Flamin_Squirrel
29-04-05, 10:30 PM
exactly... Im with you on this one Tim.... and so will Jordan when it happens to him and his bikes written off completely and hes limping around for months....
the point is if people dont get punished for "mistakes" they'll keep making them till they kill someone. You cant decide if an accident was deliberate or a mistake. Most mistakes are caused by inattention, carelessness and not driving with due care and attention. If the punishments remain stupidly paltry for the pain and suffering caused to the victims then people wont change how they drive.
I for one want harsher sentences til it gets rammed home the fact when you drive a car you HAVE to pay attention, and its not a pleasure ride at blackpool you can relax and do as you please.
Fine. Lets say this does happen to me. What good would it do me to ruin the life of someone else that is otherwise a decent citizen, even if I'm hurt due to their mistake? Eventualy everyone will make a mistake at some point on the road if they use it for long enough.
Punishments primary purpose is to act as a deterant. The deterant to those who commit an offence by mistake is not even considered, as they didn't intend on commiting it. A deterant will only effect those that would willfully commit a crime in the first place.
Stringing up otherwise decent people because they were unlucky in that their mistake had a more serious consiquence isn't justice, it's revenge.
However, considering what you've been though, I'd probably feel exactly the same. So, although I stand by my views while I remain more impartial, I appologise if I caused offence.
Fine. Lets say this does happen to me. What good would it do me to ruin the life of someone else that is otherwise a decent citizen, even if I'm hurt due to their mistake? Eventualy everyone will make a mistake at some point on the road if they use it for long enough.
Punishments primary purpose is to act as a deterant. The deterant to those who commit an offence by mistake is not even considered, as they didn't intend on commiting it. A deterant will only effect those that would willfully commit a crime in the first place.
Stringing up otherwise decent people because they were unlucky in that their mistake had a more serious consiquence isn't justice, it's revenge.
However, considering what you've been though, I'd probably feel exactly the same. So, although I stand by my views while I remain more impartial, I appologise if I caused offence.
as you put it punishments there to be a deterrant. Right now I could get in a car knock you off rip your foot off and walk away with it... no deterant at all is it?
and genuine mistakes are very rare. Like I said most mistakes and accidents are caused by peoples inattention to what they are doing, or just not caring. Until the sentences change and make people realise they are driving a lethal vehicle and have to pay attention then accident rates will be as high as they are. When people have got the message then the accident rates will more accurately reflect the true mistakes.
But at the end of the day you have to take responsibility for your actions. If your inattentiveness kills, maims or seriously injures someone then thats not a genuine mistake no matter how much you try and say it is.
Thats driving without due care and attention to what you are doing and you should accept responsibility and be punished according to how much damage your inattention has cost.
Its made clear on your driving lessons how much attention you should pay on road hazards and conditions. If you dont do that after your test and you cause an accident, sorry you arent driving to required standards and should be punished with a ban at the very least to reinforce the standards of driving which would make the roads a little safer for us.
Flamin_Squirrel
29-04-05, 11:05 PM
So... you've never made a mistake on the road?
If you go out to deliberately maim someone, or end up doing so by doing something deliberately dangerous, you shouldn't have your licence taken away, you should be locked up. But if you're trying to tell me that someone with a family and a decent job, or with a multitude of other things they have to lose, would deliberately cause a serious accident, I remain totaly unconvinced.
This is especialy since when those who consider commiting an offence (which the people who make mistakes do not) will place far more importance on the chances of being caught than the sentance its self. Another reason why increasing sentance for this is pointless.
When I hit the bus that had jumped the red lights, the driver got away with no penalty at all :shock: :shock:
So... you've never made a mistake on the road?
If you go out to deliberately maim someone, or end up doing so by doing something deliberately dangerous, you shouldn't have your licence taken away, you should be locked up. But if you're trying to tell me that someone with a family and a decent job, or with a multitude of other things they have to lose, would deliberately cause a serious accident, I remain totaly unconvinced.
This is especialy since when those who consider commiting an offence (which the people who make mistakes do not) will place far more importance on the chances of being caught than the sentance its self. Another reason why increasing sentance for this is pointless.
Jordan youre confusing the issue by looking at it black and white deliberate/not deliberate. It doesnt work like that. There are standards you are legally required to adhere to when driving a vehicle. In most accidents, these happen because the person driving is not adhering to those standards.
Its called driving without due care and attention. The reason so many people still do it is because the penalties for driving way under safe standards is stupid. A fine and points is going to make no difference whatsoever. A ban/custodial sentence appropriate to the consequences of a person not paying due care and attention may be the only way someone will learn a vehicle is a lethal weapon and you are responsible for your actions.
You are responsible for your actions. If you hit someone and kill them because youre not paying attention then you have to take the consequences of you choosing not to pay full attention and drive to the legally required standard of care and attention. That is the law. People dont obey it because the sentencing is inadequate.
Stuff whether hes got a family, good job, etc etc etc. At that moment that person was not driving to the legally required standard of care and attention. Most people are lucky and dont have accidents when they do that but some arent. Im sorry but they should pay for that and be punished.
Because what you are effectively saying is if it wasnt deliberate then they get to walk away scott free. So guy on a mobile veers out and knocks you off. Wasnt deliberate. Just not in control of the car... so he should get away with that then?
Because life isnt clear cut. There isnt a deliberate/undeliberate divide with accidents. They happen due to inattention, too much speed, or just inappropriate driving to the conditions. Thats why theres a law requiring an appropriate amount of due care and attention.
Do you honestly think ANYONE deliberately goes out to run someone over?
:? Not on my planet they dont but it happens because someone is careless. I mean where do you get the notion someone drives into someone deliberately? You siding with van man here and saying I DID do it for the insurance? :roll: :?
Flamin_Squirrel
30-04-05, 12:05 AM
Because what you are effectively saying is if it wasnt deliberate then they get to walk away scott free. So guy on a mobile veers out and knocks you off. Wasnt deliberate. Just not in control of the car... so he should get away with that then?
That's not a mistake though is it, that's downright dangerous. For those acts, I agree that punishments are too lienient. I also agree that genuine mistakes are probably not that common.
For those that do make genuine mistakes, well I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on what should be done with them.
I mean where do you get the notion someone drives into someone deliberately? You siding with van man here and saying I DID do it for the insurance? :roll: :?
That was not necessary.
Jelster
30-04-05, 07:07 AM
Back to the matter in hand.....
Tim, does this open the guy up for private action to be taken ? Can you sue him directly for the problems he's caused you ?
Rather than get into the debate above, it would seem fitting that he should bear the cost of getting you back to your previous state of health & fitness (as near as possible).
.
Fizzy Fish
30-04-05, 08:30 AM
I have to agree with flamin_squirrel a bit here - I'm pretty sure none of us can honestly say that we have never made an error of judgement before in car/on bike. A few of these might have resulted in injury or damage (to self or other) but the majority fortunately we have got away with.
If you were in the same situation and an error/lapse of judgement (perhaps doing 80 in a 60 or a dodgy overtake in the heat of on a rideout or that time when you were 17 and didn't have so much driving experience and you pulled out of a junction when you thought you had time to do so, etc) then you could be up on the same charge. In that situation I reckon jail is a bit extreme.
However what I think would be justified is that if people cause harm to other people they should have to think about it as often as the person who they injured, and a driving ban seems like an appropriate solution to this. That and/or some sort of regular update on how the victim is getting on, or face-to-face meetings between driver & victim - I think most people are decent types and would take this to heart. In conjunction with more bans being issued it would mean that the message gets out that you have to be more careful and there are repercussions for not doing so, and that is what the criminal justice system fails so dismally to do at the moment.
coombest
30-04-05, 09:01 AM
Blimey! Talk of prison sentences... where did that come from!! :shock:
In the case of the driver that hit me, as I have already said, I think a reasonable punishment would be a short ban, points and a reasonable fine.
He knocked me off through turning across a carriageway of a 50mph section of A road, which is notoriously dangerous, without looking. A theory is that he saw someone from behind him on his side of the road flash another car out onto that side of the road, assumed it meant it was safe for him to go, so went! :shock: The Traffic officer in chage of the accident was of the impression that it was very serious careless driving and he said that he would dearly love to have prosecuted for dangerous driving but there has to be more evidence for that.
When you consider that you can receive a £1000 fine for not having a TV licence, or failing to inform the DVLA of a change of address, I think people should get more punishments than they do if they injure someone on the roads. I don't think prison is right, unless they have killed someone through dangerous driving or a very serious case of careless driving.
When you think that points on your licence are only going to make it more difficut for him to insure his car and that's about it... I suppose in theory a careless driving conviction could cost him his job if it involved driving.
That doesn't cost alot and isn't that difficult to deal with.
I hve lost a lot of money on insurance, etc. resulting from this accident (I will probably be about a grand out of pocket once I've received the rest of the insurance money owed to me!). I am also in a reasonable amount of pain and find lots of things that I used to do difficult. I don't see why he should get away with a driving conviction and a small fine.
Steve - in theory I can sue him personally but I don't think he has much money so it would probably cost me more than I would gain! I am making a Personal Injury claim, which is pretty much suing him but it comes off his insurance, so I will actually get some recompense.
Blimey! Talk of prison sentences... where did that come from!! :shock:
In the case of the driver that hit me, as I have already said, I think a reasonable punishment would be a short ban, points and a reasonable fine.
He knocked me off through turning across a carriageway of a 50mph section of A road, which is notoriously dangerous, without looking. A theory is that he saw someone from behind him on his side of the road flash another car out onto that side of the road, assumed it meant it was safe for him to go, so went! :shock: The Traffic officer in chage of the accident was of the impression that it was very serious careless driving and he said that he would dearly love to have prosecuted for dangerous driving but there has to be more evidence for that.
When you consider that you can receive a £1000 fine for not having a TV licence, or failing to inform the DVLA of a change of address, I think people should get more punishments than they do if they injure someone on the roads. I don't think prison is right, unless they have killed someone through dangerous driving or a very serious case of careless driving.
When you think that points on your licence are only going to make it more difficut for him to insure his car and that's about it... I suppose in theory a careless driving conviction could cost him his job if it involved driving.
That doesn't cost alot and isn't that difficult to deal with.
I hve lost a lot of money on insurance, etc. resulting from this accident (I will probably be about a grand out of pocket once I've received the rest of the insurance money owed to me!). I am also in a reasonable amount of pain and find lots of things that I used to do difficult. I don't see why he should get away with a driving conviction and a small fine.
Steve - in theory I can sue him personally but I don't think he has much money so it would probably cost me more than I would gain! I am making a Personal Injury claim, which is pretty much suing him but it comes off his insurance, so I will actually get some recompense.
I was meaning for the most serious offences where someone has been killed.... otherwise a ban should be imposed not just points and a fine...
oh and bear in mind you can go to jail for not paying your tv licence too... :shock: not just a fine for that either....
Points and a fine are an insufficient deterrent IMHO. Nowadays people see them as an inconvenience, nothing more. I've read of some people being told they have to go on retraining courses. I think this is an excellent idea, for three reasons.
First they learn how to drive properly. Second, it invariably costs more than the fine the mags would otherwise impose. Third, they have to do it in their own time. maybe there should be a short ban for the duration of the course too. I think that there should be a pass threshold on these courses - ie people should have to take it seriously, show appreciation of their weaknesses and the impact that it has had on another road user and demonstrate commitment to improving their skills. Better still if the course takes a few Saturdays. People have got to learn that having a drivers licence is a privilege and not a right, and that minimum standards of health and skill are required to qualify.
***
Slightly off the subject. Tragic case here in Shropshire last week - two men jailed for causing death by dangerous driving. They both pleaded not guilty. One was sober and gave the car keys to his mate, whom he knew to be over the limit. The drunk drove into someone on a country lane at speed, killing them. The drunk driver got 3 years. The bloke who gave him the keys got 5 years. The judge took a very dim view of such reckless behaviour. Rightly so, I think.
Couerdelion
30-04-05, 01:56 PM
From my perspective driving is a privilage and not a right.
If you make a mistake you should expect to lose that privilage!
At the vert least you should have to undergo some form of training in the event of an accident.
Dicky Ticker
30-04-05, 04:34 PM
I'm aware of the strong feelings running through this post but please
" to err is human" and all this talk of prison and mega fines takes away from the basic meaning "accident" i.e. accidental,not deliberate, no intent.
and trying to prove somebody deliberately tried to take you out is very hard for the police to prove. That is why you have ,Death by Dangerous
Driving, and the charge of manslaughter which I'm sure the police would prosecute for if they have the evidence
As far as I can interpet one case was an "accident" through negligence
whilst the other was an questionable accident followed with assault
The later in my mind is the more serious, but not taking away the gravity of injury caused by negligence
If we were all perfect accidents would not happen so unless you are perfect accidents will happen and god forbid you or I might be the cause of the next one
Example-- You are driving down a road in a 30mph limit at 25-28mph,some kids are playing hide and seek,one who has been hiding behind a car dashes out in front of you and you kill them Any normal person will be gutted at what they have done so where would a prison sentence be beneficial
That is what the court and police are there for,to prosecute to the appropriate level and punish as necessary
Jelster
30-04-05, 05:49 PM
Retraining is the answer here. Make them sit a bloody long traing programme at their cost.
If he gets a ban he losses all of his points. Make sure he has 8 points so that 1 more mistake will lose him his licence. That's more of a deterrent than just taking it away for 3 months (IMHO). He should be put through a grat deal of inconvenience and made to attend at least 10 hours training per week (2 nights, 1 day at weekends) for at least 10 weeks too.
.
Example-- You are driving down a road in a 30mph limit at 25-28mph,some kids are playing hide and seek,one who has been hiding behind a car dashes out in front of you and you kill them
but this is the point of reinforcing 30 and 20 mph speed limits in residential areas. As the government campaigns say, the chance of killing a child in such an event is less than if youre speeding.
Yes we all make mistakes but the point here is that genuine mistakes are the minority of accidents.
Most accidents shouldnt be classed as an accident. Mainly because most are caused by inattention, speeding or driving/riding inappropriately to the conditions ie driving without due care and attention which is not an accidental cause for said accident or a genuine mistake. If you pay attention properly then the chances of an accident are considerably reduced to those you cant avoid due to the actions of other road users.
The second point is people have no incentive to drive carefully. If you can basically rip someones foot off and drive miles before realising and then walk away with a £300 fine and a suspended sentence what incentive is it for people to drive properly?
I wasnt advocating jail in every case. But I do think a ban for a period of time should become mandatory to make those who do drive dangerously and inattently think. I also agree that they should do retraining.
Id also like to know why you think my accidents questionable. I was on the road, the van driver saw me but clearly didnt think and floored it out in front of me. He did a right turn on a left only as well. How does that make it questionable? There is no deliberate/undeliberate point to an accident. It comes down to whether someone is alert and paying attention.
Frankly I want him in jail for the assaults at the least. For the driving offence I dont think a fine and points will teach him to be more careful and considerate. A ban just might.
Frankly I want him in jail for the assaults at the least. For the driving offence I dont think a fine and points will teach him to be more careful and considerate. A ban just might.
The ban to take effect the day he comes out of jail, not the day he goes in.
Dicky Ticker
30-04-05, 09:38 PM
Lyn, please I wasn't saying your accident was questionable but trying to put myself in the position that if I was the van driver and thought I could squeeze myself out in front of you, beat a bit of traffic so as to speak without causing an accident
Unfortunately completely misjudged it,but loosing his cool and assualt, not on Being honest and admitting an error of judgement different, ball game
Then on the other hand deliberately pulling out because its a motorbike thats approaching,not a car,he deserves to have the book flung at him
What I was trying to impress is the whole concept of human failing and we never know when it might be our turn
I have got to be honest and say that as a truck driver London is a nightmare and I have pushed my way out into traffic streams and maybe missed a gear and upset another motorist because my exit has been slower than I anticipated but if I cause an accident I must hold my hands up and admit fault Deliberately pulling out is a NO NO
Maybe I'm to honest by admitting I can and do sometimes make mistakes
but I cover in one year what the average motorist does in ten,this does not excuse my failings, but statisticaly makes me ten times more vulnerable to be put in the at fault situation
The point being ever incident has to be taken individually and a generalisation IMHO is very unfair, as to the penalties dealt out by courts,
well,thats another matter
Good luck with your case
Jelster
30-04-05, 10:12 PM
I think we've had enough now.....
.
21QUEST
30-04-05, 10:50 PM
I think we've had enough now.....
.
Agree but...... :wink:
Cheers
Ben
im just gonna say one thing before this thread gets locked.
i am human, i make mistakes because i am human
i also hold my hands up and admit i was in the wrong when i make them.
:grouphug:
Just caught up with this over the long weekend... everyone's getting pretty radical here! :shock:
It's all very well saying that the driver who caused Tim's accident should receive an ever growing list of punishments, but this won't solve very much, and I believe is quite narrow minded.
You can dish out points, bans and fines to individuals for serious accidents such as this, until the cows come home - but it won't change the bigger picture very quickly. You could say that it's quite an inelastic relationship. Massive changes are required to get small results.
I like Jordan's attitude, the guy made a mistake, let's not get heavy handed, Yes, points, fines, maybe a small ban for him to reflect on what went wrong, should all be imposed so he remembers, and others know, exactly what he did.
But that won't affect the next guy who pulls infront of a biker! It's a new case.
Driver education is the key, and I truly believe in additional road training. At the moment, this is imposed *after* the accident, and I think this is fairly useless - there's no point closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. :roll:
There's no public awareness or information anymore, why? The police don't pull drivers over anymore just to have a quiet, constructive word of advice, why? I think driving schools could make a killing if they offered half day refreshers of the common accidents - and what if you got an insurance discount for going on one? I think they'd be popular!
If there is Bikesafe... why is there not Carsafe?
I also believe:
- bicycles should pass an MOT, and be insured
- horses should also be insured, and have passed training to go on the road
- red-light cameras at every junction
- passenger vehicle drivers should be mystery-tested, and have to retake their licence on the first and every offense.
i agree with what u said there billyC
there are some cab drivers out there who drive like shumaker (if thats how you spell him)
i agree with what u said there billyC
there are some cab drivers out there who drive like shumaker (if thats how you spell him)
It's not the cab drivers you need to worry about... it's the bus drivers. To extend your analogy, most of the ****s on London's busses seem to believe that because they happen to be red, they must be driven like a Ferrari! :evil: :shock: :evil:
i agree with what u said there billyC
there are some cab drivers out there who drive like shumaker (if thats how you spell him)
It's not the cab drivers you need to worry about... it's the bus drivers. To extend your analogy, most of the ****s on London's busses seem to believe that because they happen to be red, they must be driven like a Ferrari! :evil: :shock: :evil:
fact there are too many careless and inattentive drivers out there regardless of what they drive.
fact no-one has any incentive to change this because sentencing is a joke even when you kill or maim someone by said carelessness and inattention.
my point is that the law needs to draw the line and say in cases where something is proven to be caused by carelessness and inattention the current fine/points is no punishment, incentive to drive correctly or anything but pointless.
I do think driver education and retraining should be considered along with a short ban... then people will start to realise driving is a priviledge and not a right and they are in control of lethal machinery if they dont pay attention... where someones inattention kills I do think a jail sentence should be imposed. We are talking about inattention and not paying due care.
I think its evident to most experienced accident investigators those where a genuine accident has happened and those which are caused by excessive speed, lack of attention.
On the way out of hastings, a family on a zebra crossing nearly got taken out. Car stopped to let them across, but woman in car behind was chatting, didnt notice the brake lights and went in the back of the car in front knocking them forward and hitting the pedestrians. Car in front was an accident but the woman in the car behind should be done. That very nearly injured a child and baby and 2 adults. But again in court £250 and 3 points wont be an incentive next bank holiday for her to pay attention either.
another case in point, another biker killed on one road i use a lot. bmw did a u turn. so hey, lets give him £250 and 3 points... :evil:
real incentive for not bothering to do a mirror check or making sure the maneouvre was safe to do...
sorry, you sit here and complain about the poor quality of driving and then complain if I suggest harsher sentences. Light sentencing is one reason why it wont change. Until people realise they are accountable for what they do on the road and need to pay attention things will stay the same. And Im talking about the majority of accidents caused by inattention and speeding here.
sorry, you sit here and complain about the poor quality of driving and then complain if I suggest harsher sentences. Light sentencing is one reason why it wont change. Until people realise they are accountable for what they do on the road and need to pay attention things will stay the same. And Im talking about the majority of accidents caused by inattention and speeding here.
Lyn, my point was that punishing a driver after they've had an accident, or committed an offense really doesn't help anyone in the long-run. While I think that it should continue, it is hardly a deterent, and certainly not a preventative measure, and the penalties would have to rise significantly in order to start having that kind of effect.
A chav in Newcastle isn't going to stop hooning around the city centre with their stereo blazing, just because someone in London got an increased penalty of say £1000 fine and a month's ban for having an accident that they could have avoided if they drove better. Or Visa-versa.
Perhaps driving licences should be revalidated by an instructor every 5 years? This is principle is common in aviation, yet more people are killed by cars every year! Perhaps revalidation of your licence should happen once you've notched up a few points on your licence - you're clearly becoming a liability?
I don't know, but I do know that if you want to tackle a problem - you must address the causes of the problem, not the results.
Mr Toad
03-05-05, 10:03 AM
Perhaps driving licences should be revalidated by an instructor every 5 years? This is principle is common in aviation, yet more people are killed by cars every year! Perhaps revalidation of your licence should happen once you've notched up a few points on your licence - you're clearly becoming a liability?
100% with you there Billy
It might just help to get old Nissan Micra drivers off the road :twisted:
Perhaps driving licences should be revalidated by an instructor every 5 years? This is principle is common in aviation, yet more people are killed by cars every year! Perhaps revalidation of your licence should happen once you've notched up a few points on your licence - you're clearly becoming a liability?
I don't know, but I do know that if you want to tackle a problem - you must address the causes of the problem, not the results.
not a bad idea... I do think someone getting a licence at 17 valid til 70 is mad... and its a acknowledged when tested most people would fail a test again... bad habits get picked up and never corrected... I do think a retest every 5 years is a good idea along with retraining...
but it needs to be addressed from both ends...
Yes Lyn, it does need to be tackled at both ends.
I think in Tim's case:
- a fine would've been appropriate but doesn't really do anything at all except financially penalise him for a mistake, which I don't think is the best way to go about these things.
- pionts, definitely! This labels him to insurers, and others, for the risk that his driving poses to society. Too much demontrated risk, and he loses the licence.
- a ban? Yes, I'd favour this instead of any fine! But this would be additional to points. Both are recorded on the licence.
- plus a day's ABC driving skills and technique coaching? What a good idea! :twisted: [/u]
Flamin_Squirrel
03-05-05, 10:37 AM
Perhaps driving licences should be revalidated by an instructor every 5 years? This is principle is common in aviation, yet more people are killed by cars every year! Perhaps revalidation of your licence should happen once you've notched up a few points on your licence - you're clearly becoming a liability?
I don't know, but I do know that if you want to tackle a problem - you must address the causes of the problem, not the results.
not a bad idea... I do think someone getting a licence at 17 valid til 70 is mad... and its a acknowledged when tested most people would fail a test again... bad habits get picked up and never corrected... I do think a retest every 5 years is a good idea along with retraining...
but it needs to be addressed from both ends...
Trouble is, although this might weed out the elderly and the chavs, it probably wouldn't do anything to stop mr mondeo man, who promply returns to driving like a retard after passing their renewal. Nor would it stop the ditz that nearly wiped out an entire family from driving.
Trouble is, although this might weed out the elderly and the chavs, it probably wouldn't do anything to stop mr mondeo man, who promply returns to driving like a retard after passing their renewal. Nor would it stop the ditz that nearly wiped out an entire family from driving.
In aviation, the point of revalidation is to gauge how aware a pilot is, the competancy of their control and manouvres, and demonstration of their abilities given certain situations.
If you don't come up to scratch, you don't get signed off - and have to continue instruction until you're deamed to be safe.
The same principle would apply. You don't get your licence back if you approach a long standing green traffic light too fast, or show bad road positioning. However, I would like to see such a thing highlight common causes of accidents - just as bikesafe does.
If you don't raise awareness... people will continue to be un-aware, and cause accidents where they hadn't thought about what might be happening around them.
It is simply driving defensively.
Flamin_Squirrel
03-05-05, 10:50 AM
Yeah but a pilot could pass their validation, then go back up and start buzzing the tower and doing loop the loops.
Having the skills to drive well for a test doesn't mean you're immune to getting impatent and driving like an idiot.
Flamin,
True, but it's a start, and it sows a seed in the minds of those that can improve, and don't want to see their insurance sky-rocket as they do start having accidents.
Let's say a driver revalidates... then does something stupid, and gets caught by the Police (one of the many new ones that we've been promised time and time again, but don't have yet). Perhaps the Police then need the power to for him to revalidate again - a major inconvenience. Or give him a few points - and when they get to a certain number, then they have to revalidate again anyway.
If you have an accident, and it's proved to be your fault, careless driving or whatever... sure, points, fines etc.. maybe a ban - and then must revalidate again to get the licence back.
Points on the licence cropping up too much? Change the revalidation period from every 5 years... to ever 2 years? That'd affect insurance quotes etc.
If a driver continues to be unsafe, the insurance costs would increase, to cover their demonstrated lack of safety.
Perhaps there should be more levels than just the bog standard driving test... encouragement to do more than just the basic. Limit vehicles that you can drive according to your licence?
Lots of ideas...
Bill, nice ideas mate but realistically what changes can we expect to be made?
I think the only thing that is realistic and worth pushing for is more driver education when people are convicted of driving offences, speeding or are involved in accidents etc.
:lol:
Lee, you're appealing to my cynical side now. Realistically we can expect bugger all! Governments and Authorities are only interested in post incident prevention - because it creates lots and lots of money!
A good small step, could be less mystery and more encouragement surrounding advanced driving courses on the road - and rewards for completing them - insurance recognition etc.
People are happy to spend £200 for their other half to drive a Ferrari around Brands for the day... but no one spends £50 so they can learn to be safe and better behind the wheel of their own car. :shock:
I'm coming from this angle, as day by day I see driving standards getting worse and worse. Some people should be stopped on the spot to receive points, and a date for a re-test set! :evil:
Rob S (Yella)
03-05-05, 05:04 PM
Wow, I will have to read all this in detail when I get time but
Do you honestly think ANYONE deliberately goes out to run someone over?
How about driving a stolen car, at speed and u-turning into the fast lane of the A13 without slowing and taking out a motorbike. Then running away on foot leaving a biker for dead in the fast lane. (plus threatening to kick in the old couple that tried to follow them)
As a result of that action 18 months ago I am having my 5th operation this Friday and I am permanently disabled.
It was not deliberate, it was an accident. So IF they ever get them (which they wont) they will get more of a fine for stealing the car and being uninsured than killing me. (and yes i really was dead for a while) I think prison is to harsh for a mistake but if the mistake is caused by carlessness, reclessness or if your on a mobile or uninsured then hard labour is the way to go for many years. 'You are responsible for your actions'
If the chavs that took me out knew there was a risk of many years inside for being caught in a stolen car or not being insured would they have gone joyriding that night. It could have been YOU on the A13 that night instead of me. It could have been Your mum taken into a side room and told if she wanted a priest as my chances were at 5% and dropping.
But the truth is the fines and punishment are even less than the insurance they would have to pay so it's well worth the risk for a non considerate nob head to risk it.
Jelster
03-05-05, 06:44 PM
Enough already.....
It's pretty obvious that people have different points of view, which is good as the world would be a pretty dull place otherwise. But am I the only one who thinks we've done this one to excess???
.
No youre not... :D
Its starting to become a circular argument and will never end unless someone says enough already :wink: :lol: :lol:
ENOUGH ALREADY. I've read 5 pages and they all have the same argument.
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