View Full Version : Linked Brakes
Ceri JC
03-05-05, 12:00 PM
Just out of interest, does anyone here have any experience of bikes with linked brakes?
Given that I like to dab the back brake to turn it round tight spaces in town, I'd hate to have them, but I read recently about 'sports-linked brakes' (think it was on one of the bmw sports-tourers) whereby, the front brake also engages the rear, but the back one doesn't engage the front. Sounds a lot better: I hardly use the back brake in an emergency anymore, due to having locked up the rear wheel from stamping on it on more than one occassion :oops: and just think that a linked brake that works as described above might be the answer (not that I'd be looking to get it fitted to my SV- more something to bear in mind for my next bike).
Also, linked brakes generally seem unpopular, why do they come as standard (as ABS is becoming) on quite a few Hondas?
Ceri JC
03-05-05, 12:22 PM
I've not used a bike with linked brakes but I wouldn't like to own one, for the same reason I wouldn't want an automatic car.
I used an automatic car for the first time a couple of months back. Really disliked it, you could feel it change gears and suddenly surge forwards (only a bit) or apply engine braking. Hardly severe enough to cause an accident (you shouldn't be tailgating anyway, I suppose), but just the feeling of not being in complete control that it gave was unsettling. On a bike I imagine I'd find it (automatic gears) extremely unnerving.
My dads Varadero has the linked braking system. Wouldnt like it myself but he says it settles the bike down and helps cornering. Hes not exactly what id call rossi round corners though :P
His V*lvo is an automatic and ive driven that, great car to drive very smooth and responsive. Some automatics work and some dont
there was a test in superbikes mag ( i think) a while back
ABS vs Standard
under normal conditions the ABS felt more sturdy braking
but under emergency stops, the standard brake setup was able to stop quicker than the ABS.
i wouldnt like a bike with linked brakes,
and i have a feeling that ABS and linked brakes will make riders alot more lazier.
I have the pleasure of having both the Honda(VFR) and the BMW (GS ADV) system and a standard braking bike as well at the moment. .
FWIW all comments about reducing "rider control" etc are pretty well un founded, unless you are a demi god and ride to 100% (see other thread for your own judgements of your riding ability) you will not even notice the linked braking on either, however your braking will be better balanced and more effective.
Claims that the Honda rear brake will cause you to come off if you use it in slow manouvering, for stability are again unfounded, the front is not applied when using the rear brake until just before maximum braking so does not get applied in these circumstances.
The BMW system is excellent too and I also have the benefit of ABS on that bike. Once you have needed to use ABS you'll be glad you had it and you will never buy a bike without it again. Yes the mags have done controlled testing where they have "proved" that an non ABS bike stops in an emergency quicker than an ABS equipped one, well it takes a hell of a lot longer to stop when the bike is sliding down the road because of a front wheel lock up, your emergency braking will not be controlled and likely grabbing a handful on a non ABS bike will result in you going down.
ABS and linked brakes get a massive thumbs up from me.
Damoulianos Marios
03-05-05, 02:14 PM
I wouldn't like linked brakes too. If you understand how your brakes work and what happens with weight transfer over hard braking then linked brakes only make things more complicated. After a many "difficult" moments (mostly inside town avoiding accidents) I have come to using the following technique: Get used to always use as much back brake as to not lock the rear under full front braking. Always. This means only a bit, which is useful not so much as to kill speed as to settle the bike and make it easier to save a possible front lock. All real stopping is done with the front brake. By using this technique the rear never locks and the question always is how much to front brake without locking it. Mind, roads in towns down here are so slippery you wouldn't believe it.
It has saved my a** at least once, meaning that if I didn't use it I would surely have been a victim of some driver's "awarenes and responsibility"... :evil:
Anonymous
03-05-05, 02:33 PM
ABS and linked brakes get a massive thumbs up from me.
He's right you know :thumbsup: I've limited experience but I absolutely love the linked system (although I guess for a real comparison you'd have to compare with and without on the same bike).
And yes Damoulianos, some of the roads I had the fortune to ride on in Crete were smooth as glass and like ice when damp :shock:
Carsick
03-05-05, 02:46 PM
I think what alot of people forget when they read articles comparing ABS or Linked systems with normal is that most of the tests are done in controlled situations.
How many of you skidded during the e-stop in your test? Not many I suspect. Now how many skid occasionally if they have to slam on the anchors in an actual emergency? Most people, at some point or another.
The simple fact is that ABS just gives you less stuff to have to worry about in an emergency.
There is the problem on how it affects rider skill development and laziness, combined with the volvo effect (increased safety =~ decreased hazard perception)
Damoulianos Marios
03-05-05, 03:08 PM
Once you have needed to use ABS you'll be glad you had it and you will never buy a bike without it again. .
That's the problem. If you forget how to brake without an ABS you don't want to go back, and you won't want to ride otherwise excellent bikes. I want to be able to ride them all...
Yes the mags have done controlled testing where they have "proved" that an non ABS bike stops in an emergency quicker than an ABS equipped one, well it takes a hell of a lot longer to stop when the bike is sliding down the road because of a front wheel lock up, your emergency braking will not be controlled and likely grabbing a handful on a non ABS bike will result in you going down.
.
This is an overstatement. An experienced rider is able to near-lock the front without locking it. In the event I described previously, I braked so hard that for fractions of a second the front locked but I expcected that and released the lever a bit to allow the front to find traction again. This happened twice That happened while also turning, to avoid getting early in the path of the car. Acoording to what you said I would have been down undoubtedly, and surely I would if I panicked and just squeezed the brakes as much as possible. instead of giving money for ABS why not give money for riding lessons that will teach you panic control? Would be useful in a lot other situations too...
Ceri JC
03-05-05, 03:20 PM
Anyone know if insurance companies give out insurance discounts for ABS/linked brakes on bikes (in the same way that they used to for cages, before car drivers started driving more recklessly to 'compensate' for ABS)?
SVeeedy Gonzales
03-05-05, 03:26 PM
I'd love linked brakes where the front does both and the rear just does the rear - I know they exist - BMW? I can't think of any situations where you put the front on where a bit of rear wouldn't be useful...
Can't understand why Mr Honda thinks the front coming on when you dab the rear is a good thing... no - it's bad, very, very bad... do you see?
I'd be happy with linked brakes, would really love ABS and adore autos ;).
.
SVeeedy Gonzales
03-05-05, 03:30 PM
Oooh - and I'd have ABS if it wasn't an extra £300... and if they actually made it for the SV...
All very well doing a controlled stop but when some nobber runs out in front of you or pulls out without signalling or looking, there's not much time for the whole E-stop routine... be nice to grab a handful and have some minor reassurance that the skid is less of a problem... even if it's no guarantee of staying shiny side up.
Anonymous
03-05-05, 03:30 PM
I'd love linked brakes where the front does both and the rear just does the rear - I know they exist - BMW?
Yes.
Flamin_Squirrel
03-05-05, 03:32 PM
I'd be happy with linked brakes, would really love ABS and adore autos ;).
.
Does the VMax have ABS? :shock:
Anonymous
03-05-05, 03:34 PM
Oooh - and I'd have ABS if it wasn't an extra £300... and if they actually made it for the SV...
There was a rumour that its coming on the SV, wasnt there? Isnt it already here on the Hornet and Fazer? I may be mistaken but I def read that its coming in on more machines due to manufacturers having signed a Euro agreement (not legislation) aimed at improving safety. I thought I had read the SV was one of the bikes it would be arriving on.
Ceri JC
03-05-05, 03:49 PM
Oooh - and I'd have ABS if it wasn't an extra £300... and if they actually made it for the SV...
There was a rumour that its coming on the SV, wasnt there? Isnt it already here on the Hornet and Fazer? I may be mistaken but I def read that its coming in on more machines due to manufacturers having signed a Euro agreement (not legislation) aimed at improving safety. I thought I had read the SV was one of the bikes it would be arriving on.
Honda in particular are doing it across more and more new bikes and quite openly admit even their out and out sports bikes (CBR600RR, etc.) will have it inside of 10 years. Where in the past ABS was an optional extra, it's now becoming the only version available.
I saw an article on it a while back and it was emphasised it's not legislative, just a 'cultural change' (ie, the fun police sticking their noses in) towards safer biking.
Not heard about it re: the SV. Hopefully, it won't be introduced for cost reasons (£250 extra on a £7000 bike isn't much, £250 extra on a £4000 one is quite a lot).
imagine one day. we have the need to UNMOD our brakes :)
Ceri JC
03-05-05, 04:33 PM
imagine one day. we have the need to UNMOD our brakes :)
Already exists mate :( . "Unlinking" brakes is quite popular among Blackbird riders. But then the 'older generation' tend to be a bit technophobic, eh?
Anonymous
03-05-05, 05:15 PM
imagine one day. we have the need to UNMOD our brakes :)
Already exists mate :( . "Unlinking" brakes is quite popular among Blackbird riders. But then the 'older generation' tend to be a bit technophobic, eh?
And indeed in the world of BMW, but more to do with servos as well. I can switch ABS off on mine. But they worry about servo failure a lot as the resultant residual braking was v poor on 1150s apparently (or so they say, Patch will tell us the truth) but better on the 1200. Although when I accidently put my bike into residual mode the braking didnt seem especially special :shock: :lol: .
But anyway off topic probably. But TBH Ceri an ABS SV for £4250 would still be pretty good value, IMO its £750 ish on mine.
I dont think it will be linked ABS anyhow, or maybe they have to be linked for ABS.....dont know.
Loose the servo on a BMW and you have a problem if you need to stop quickly, however most people do not know just how hard you have to use the levers to get maximum braking effect from the residual brake.
The servo assisted brakes are superb though and coupled with ABS stop the GS very well indeed, especially impressive when you consider the weight of the thing.
I can turn off the ABS on the GS and do whenever I take it trail riding, I would not dream off switching it off on the roads.
As for getting complacent? well the VFR doesn't have ABS and you soon adapt, the sidecar doesn't have linked brakes and actually its questionable whether it has brakes at all :shock:
carelesschucca
03-05-05, 06:47 PM
you could feel it change gears and suddenly surge forwards
What car was it??? As a good automatic box shouldn't do that kind of thing unless you’re not being smooth with the accelerator...
As with everything, it’s getting used to something and learning to use it properly... I drive in both a manual and an automatic's and I favour the auto-box cause its lazy stuff and I can pull away from a standstill quicker than in the same manual car...
I know that ABS would have saved my ass when I crashed, as I wouldn't have locked up the front when the forks bottomed out...
there's a rear brake???? ahaha
SVeeedy Gonzales
04-05-05, 07:43 AM
I'd be happy with linked brakes, would really love ABS and adore autos ;).
.
Does the VMax have ABS? :shock:
No, but it probably needs it more than any other bike on the planet :D
Honda forcing ABS upon all new bikes/customers = pants... what about choice Mr Honda? Hopefully more people will vote with their feet :evil: Saying that, I'd not be complaining if they forced the linked brakes (not the ones they have now, but the ones where the rear does ONLY the rear) on people... but then that would be real extra safety and it also wouldn't cost £300 to put on and another fortune whenever you needed a new brake disc :evil:
There's no reason why the SV shouldn't have ABS brakes soon... can they be retro-fitted easily? ABS is weird... I'd like to have it, and then I'd hope that I'd never have to make use of it :D
Funnily enough if you buy a bike without ABS where an ABS model is available you will struggle to sell the non ABS versiona dn lose far more than the cost of ABS from the residual value.
This even goes for dealers, my local BMW dealer does not like non ABS bikes as they sit there far longer same with VFR's/Pans etc.
Ceri JC
04-05-05, 08:42 AM
[quote=Ceri JC]
What car was it??? As a good automatic box shouldn't do that kind of thing unless you’re not being smooth with the accelerator...
Vauxhal Vectra, 2.6 version. The problem I described was most noticeable on the motorway. It was a bit like being a passenger in a car where the driver is fairly experienced, but just isn't very smooth going through the box.
Company/hire car, so it's possible it could be down to wear and tear/poor maintenance, I suppose.
Rich: Re the cost, it does seem a bit harsh how severly it differs in cost from bike to bike, 05 Sprints with ABS are £800 more than standard ones :shock:.
Carsick
04-05-05, 09:30 AM
Rich: Re the cost, it does seem a bit harsh how severly it differs in cost from bike to bike, 05 Sprints with ABS are £800 more than standard ones :shock:.
They're not even out till the autumn, though, and by then there's a good chance that you can get it for more or less the same price.
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