View Full Version : Love or Lust
Anonymous
18-08-05, 02:46 PM
Deleted as per jabs request.
even though it wasnt breaking U ratings. I was a piece of text which described a kiss between two unknown people...
It was part of a poll about love or lust. Which to me is more relevent on this forum than all these "cons" we get from nigera etc.
I personally am beginning to think that people have problems with me being on this forum...
comments on that please Jabba.
Delete it.
Do you never learn?
i give it 20 mins tops
EDIT
cor, it lasted 4 !!
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Anonymous
18-08-05, 02:54 PM
Edited and deleted as per Jabba's request.
How come something such as the many cons from nigeria etc, are alright for the forum. Yet an adult discussion regarding a piece of classic text describing a kiss between two unknown people is flamed?
There was nothing rude nor insulting about the text, kids far younger than 13yo will be studying text like that in their English lessons at school.
Perhaps its the fact that i posted it.. and you all assumed it was something gay, therefore fell foul of the U rating?
Id be interested to hear your comments and views on that!
why did you delete it at one persons request? did you think to yourself maybe he's right and its not really for this kind of site? if you feel that strongly put it back up and let other people decide, the moderators and the like....
1) It's a bike forum
2) IB is for topical points of interest
3) Get over yourself
I don't wish to be hard but that's the truth of it.
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Anonymous
18-08-05, 03:08 PM
1) It's a bike forum I know but other people post ****e
2) IB is for topical points of interest I know but other people post ****e
3) Get over yourself I am, im just ****ed off that other people can post ****e and when i post something remotely mature - i get flamed.
I don't wish to be hard but that's the truth of it.
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Keithd - i deleted it cos i thought "oh great, jabs on his high horse again", and i couldnt be bothered with another bitching competition on here.
So to keep the peace a little bit i took it off.
Sorry gykd but get over it...
If you don't like what is/isn't allowed you have the option of voting with your feet
You knew in your own head it wasn't suitable i'm sure, but you seem to love the attention tbh
Anonymous
18-08-05, 03:18 PM
Not an attention seeker at all Ian.
I posted an item which would cause good debate, which was a mature subject, but not falling foul of the U rating of the site.
It wasnt a question to discuss sex, or religion or anything like that - it was a debate of a written piece of text. Or is studying written passages beyond people on IB? I wouldnt have thought so, as people on here come across as educated etc, but they also come across as very very selective what they like.
Its alright for some members to post absolute ****e, with no relevence to anything at all... but when some other members try to post items of possible interest to other people (im not just talking about my posting just now, but in general), they seem to get the more "senior" members of the group jumping on them.
The group used to be an enjoyable place to be, where you were welcome to post (within reason) what ever you wanted in the IB section, now its become very prejudiced... and i dont think i like it.
Edited and deleted as per Jabba's request.
How come something such as the many cons from nigeria etc, are alright for the forum. Yet an adult discussion regarding a piece of classic text describing a kiss between two unknown people is flamed?
There was nothing rude nor insulting about the text, kids far younger than 13yo will be studying text like that in their English lessons at school.
Perhaps its the fact that i posted it.. and you all assumed it was something gay, therefore fell foul of the U rating?
Id be interested to hear your comments and views on that!
:roll: :roll: :roll:
FFS. Its got nothing to do with YOU posting it. Will you please get over this "World Hates Me" thing. Life is crap for ALL of us at times. You do not have the exclusive rights on pain, suffering, anguish, bitterness, anger and all the other feelings that come from a tough time in life.
Bad times arent exclusive to you but you have to realise that when youre going through a tough time your thinking changes and distorts things. So you see the world against you when its NOT.
Youre doing what Ive done in the past. You hurt so when anyone criticises it becomes personal, when its not. So you lash out and rant or try to start an argument or become so oversensitive to your homosexuality you try and allege we're all homophobics here. You should know better than that.
If you post something you know will provoke people why do you then whinge when it achieves the desired result?? :?
I know but other people post sh*te
I know, but usually never as bad or as often as you do*. As for consistency you get full marks. So understand something, it's not you that people get annoyed with, it's the sickly "poor me" stuff that you post. It's not that we're heartless it's just that we've had it up to our necks, so please think first and post something other people would enjoy reading. And if you still want to argue see point 3 above.
* Well those that do more or less contain it to a single thread :lol: So feel free to use that.
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sorry but I wouldn't class that as U rated, and i'm sure its not studied in schools until late secondary maybe....
if in doubt don't post... and yes there is plenty of other crap, but thats crap that isn't borderline breaking the site rules...
1) It's a bike forum
2) IB is for topical points of interest
3) Get over yourself
I don't wish to be hard but that's the truth of it.
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Idle Banter is Idle Banter their have been many things posted on here from racism to anything bike related, whats the problem with whatever it was GYKD posted??
Because every other day there's an issue, and the majority of us (it appears) have had enough.
BTW anything that's out of order on this site gets dealt with, once a Mod or Admin becomes aware of it. We try very hard to be fair and even-handed but someone always moans regardless, but that's life and you won't find me posting a thread about how tough it is to be an Admin and the cyber-world's against me etc etc.
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countdown to thread lock.... 10..... :wink: :P :lol: :lol: :lol:
Nutkins
18-08-05, 03:35 PM
countdown to thread lock.... 10..... :wink: :P :lol: :lol: :lol:
In that case ..... getyerkneedown, you're not doing yourself any favours, mate.
Ok, I'm done. Lock away.
You'll be needing some of this
http://imagescommerce.bcentral.com/merchantfiles/5007088/HB%20PT42.jpg
Flamin_Squirrel
18-08-05, 03:36 PM
countdown to thread lock.... 10..... :wink: :P :lol: :lol: :lol:
I like thread lock. Got some in the draw at home.
//edit: damnit! Clunk beat me to it :o
Admin2 really doesn't want to have to lock the thread, though when BigApe logs on... :lol:
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there's nothing to see now so i doubt it'll get deleted or locked.....
YA BIG POOFTER, SORT YOURSELF OUT..
maybe that'll help?
at least your not a visordown admin.
by now there'd be a few sarcastic "me, me, me, whinge, whinge, whinge" threads in response to this :P :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
though if GYKD thinks hes hard done by here he wouldnt last 5 mins there. Theres no sympathy for whingers whatsoever and he'd be told in no uncertain terms to STFU. :D
at least your not a visordown admin.
Didn't think they had any :lol:
at least your not a visordown admin.
Didn't think they had any :lol:
they do. ask Silentmemory :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hold on a second, everybody posts **** here. Your all saying that its nothing to do with him or his sexuality and yet *he* has been penalised without much explanation except "its not relevent","its crap", blah blah and all jumped on it very quickly.
at least your not a visordown admin.
by now there'd be a few sarcastic "me, me, me, whinge, whinge, whinge" threads in response to this
Except this *is* beggining to be exactly like visordown where you can't post any old crap because your feeling crap (like LOTS of people here are guilty of including me and even if it is all the time) that you want without people jumping on you. It used to be a place where you could post anything you want and people accept that if you didn't want to hear it or you weren't interested YOU DIDN'T READ IT ffs.
Apparently your all fed up with GYKD's post and yet your all in here bitching about his posts!! Unbelievable! I'll give you all a tip: if you don't like GYKD or GYKD's posts. NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER click on a thread that was started by him, read a post written by him or anything at all. If you do go into a thread or read something by him then its your problem and you have almost not right to complain, you forefitted that by going there in the first place and you accept that it might not be something you want to hear.
Fair enough if its highly inappropriote but I have seen some serious double standards here when it comes to what is appropriote and what isn't and yes based on who it was that posted it.
Get a grip. Ignore it if you don't like it. Jees.
http://www.alistlookalikes.co.uk/discus/messages/2/1801.jpg
Ay calm down calm down :wink:
Im with you though Benji,if you dont want to hear what GYKD has to say dont read the thread,simple :-s
What seems to have been said here is that it wasnt inappropriate,just we didnt want to hear about it?? let others decide for themselves huh :idea:
Hold on a second, everybody posts sh*t here. Your all saying that its nothing to do with him or his sexuality and yet *he* has been penalised without much explanation except "its not relevent","its crap", blah blah and all jumped on it very quickly.
at least your not a visordown admin.
by now there'd be a few sarcastic "me, me, me, whinge, whinge, whinge" threads in response to this
Except this *is* beggining to be exactly like visordown where you can't post any old crap because your feeling crap (like LOTS of people here are guilty of including me and even if it is all the time) that you want without people jumping on you. It used to be a place where you could post anything you want and people accept that if you didn't want to hear it or you weren't interested YOU DIDN'T READ IT ffs.
Apparently your all fed up with GYKD's post and yet your all in here bitching about his posts!! Unbelievable! I'll give you all a tip: if you don't like GYKD or GYKD's posts. NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER click on a thread that was started by him, read a post written by him or anything at all. If you do go into a thread or read something by him then its your problem and you have almost not right to complain, you forefitted that by going there in the first place and you accept that it might not be something you want to hear.
Fair enough if its highly inappropriote but I have seen some serious double standards here when it comes to what is appropriote and what isn't and yes based on who it was that posted it.
Get a grip. Ignore it if you don't like it. Jees.
What he said =D> :notworthy:
Ohhh and ive never had a problem with GYND posts cant say their has been anything untoward that ive read. :)
Get a grip. Ignore it if you don't like it. Jees.
exactly!
its exactly what people have been doing with my posts for the last year or so.
hello.....?
HELLLLLOOOOOOO?????
Except this *is* beggining to be exactly like visordown where you can't post any old crap because your feeling crap (like LOTS of people here are guilty of including me and even if it is all the time) that you want without people jumping on you.
It's simply the continuity that I believe we're mainly having a gripe about.
It used to be a place where you could post anything you want and people accept that if you didn't want to hear it or you weren't interested YOU DIDN'T READ IT ffs.
You still can, providing it's within forum boundaries.
Apparently your all fed up with GYKD's post and yet your all in here bitching about his posts!! Unbelievable! I'll give you all a tip: if you don't like GYKD or GYKD's posts. NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER click on a thread that was started by him, read a post written by him or anything at all. If you do go into a thread or read something by him then its your problem and you have almost not right to complain, you forefitted that by going there in the first place and you accept that it might not be something you want to hear.
Benji you're becoming very self-righteous - Lee, where are you? Benji needs a slap ;).
Fair enough if its highly inappropriote but I have seen some serious double standards here when it comes to what is appropriote and what isn't and yes based on who it was that posted it.
Double standards are never intentional, we're all human and make mistakes. I do however think that any double standards that do exist are a whole order of magnitude lower than you'll find elsewhere.
Get a grip.
You too now ;).
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While were bitching,Jonboy I hate how you reply to posts with endless quotes and put a . at the end. Get a grip ](*,) :wink:
I dont care if GYKD posts stuff about himself every minute of the day,you dont HAVE to read it,thats what were trying to get across
Its a free country,free forum too :wink: within reason
While were bitching,Jonboy I hate how you reply to posts with endless quotes and put a . at the end. Get a grip ](*,) :wink:
:lol: Sorry dude.
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While were bitching,Jonboy I hate how you reply to posts with endless quotes and put a . at the end. Get a grip ](*,) :wink:
:lol: Sorry dude.
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AHHHHHHH you did it again :evil: :lol:
Except this *is* beggining to be exactly like visordown where you can't post any old crap because your feeling crap (like LOTS of people here are guilty of including me and even if it is all the time) that you want without people jumping on you.
It's simply the continuity that I believe we're mainly having a gripe about.
Again I say, so ignore it. You don't have to read it.
Apparently your all fed up with GYKD's post and yet your all in here bitching about his posts!! Unbelievable! I'll give you all a tip: if you don't like GYKD or GYKD's posts. NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER click on a thread that was started by him, read a post written by him or anything at all. If you do go into a thread or read something by him then its your problem and you have almost not right to complain, you forefitted that by going there in the first place and you accept that it might not be something you want to hear.
Benji you're becoming very self-righteous - Lee, where are you? Benji needs a slap ;).
Maybe so, I don't know but you have to admit that people seem to be agreeing with me in this instance at least, I am just the schmuck that said it.
Fair enough if its highly inappropriote but I have seen some serious double standards here when it comes to what is appropriote and what isn't and yes based on who it was that posted it.
Double standards are never intentional, we're all human and make mistakes. I do however think that any double standards that do exist are a whole order of magnitude lower than you'll find elsewhere.
Fair enough but we agree there has been some double standards here then.
Get a grip.
You too now ;). .
Sorry my soap box is getting a little worn and unstable from all the constant moaning I do :lol:
WelshWop
18-08-05, 04:42 PM
I myself, dont have a really have a problem with the topics you post but its the amount and reguality(sp?) of negative, 'the world hates me' posts. You say you dont seek attention but to me thats exactly what your doing. That and sympathy. I know your having hard times atm but a bike forum is no place to regualy seek these thing. Your friends and family are the ones that should be giving you these things.
Everyone here has been through rough times including myself, and tbh i think the things ive been through outway your problems ten fold. But i dont post on here for sympathy. I go to my friends and family.
It also looks to me like you use your sexuality as a tool for attention. Its 2005, most people see you no differently to an hetrosexualy man. Stop pushing the homosexual thing in our faces, we dont care.
It is also very possible that you have depression. But i mean real depression, an illness that with treatment, can be controlled or cured. My advice to you is to see your GP.
My two penny worth.
Take care GYND :)
Anonymous
18-08-05, 04:45 PM
is gykd gay? i really must start reading more posts seems like i miss all the good ones :lol:
is gykd gay? i really must start reading more posts seems like i miss all the good ones :lol:
Lol I knew that and I haven't been in here for ages! :roll: :lol:
Oh god benjis at it now ](*,)
I swear if I see anyone else breaking up posts and using tons of quotes,ill go to America and blow the server up! dont push me ill do it! :hackedoff:
Oh god benjis at it now ](*,)
I swear if I see anyone else breaking up posts and using tons of quotes,ill go to America and blow the server up! dont push me ill do it! :hackedoff:
Benji's doing what?? :P
NOW this thread is interesting :P :lol:
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Oh god benjis at it now ](*,)
I swear if I see anyone else breaking up posts and using tons of quotes,ill go to America and blow the server up! dont push me ill do it! :hackedoff:
Sorry #-o I'll burn the soap box. :P
Except this *is* beggining to be exactly like visordown where you can't post any old crap because your feeling crap (like LOTS of people here are guilty of including me and even if it is all the time) that you want without people jumping on you. It used to be a place where you could post anything you want and people accept that if you didn't want to hear it or you weren't interested YOU DIDN'T READ IT ffs.
so youre complaining its starting to get to visordown level in this paragraph.
Apparently your all fed up with GYKD's post and yet your all in here bitching about his posts!! Unbelievable! I'll give you all a tip: if you don't like GYKD or GYKD's posts. NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER click on a thread that was started by him, read a post written by him or anything at all. If you do go into a thread or read something by him then its your problem and you have almost not right to complain, you forefitted that by going there in the first place and you accept that it might not be something you want to hear.
and here youre advocating the benefit of that forums ignore feature or do what most users on that site do. So youd like it to be like visordown in that respect?? :? :wink: :)
BTW, did you read his original post? just wondering cos it may have been inappropriate, not in a position to comment.
But what people are complaining of is, aside from the wtm personal information in his posts, the fact that as soon as you reply to a post with what he doesnt want to hear, in GYKDs eyes your attacking him personally and its because youre homophobic. Which is incorrect and wrong.
As an expert in over-reacting I think Im qualified to comment here. :)
But its a public forum and people are free to post even if they disagree. You say they should ignore it but sometimes things are hard for some people to ignore if you touch a subject they feel strongly about. And why should people ignore someone who is almost DAILY whinging about how bad life is for him, attacking those who disagree with him and then continuing to repeat ad infinitum?
But ultimately it boils down to the fact that if you want help and opinion you have to be open to the fact that people will not say what you want them too. And you shouldnt then attack those people for using their freedom to respond to your request for comments.
countdown to thread lock.... 9..... :lol:
NOW this thread is interesting :P :lol:
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*gets ready to open a can of whoopass on ian* http://www.bgh.org.uk/mayfair/images/b2.gif :lol:
Must......not........click......quote button.....SV4ME....will kill!!! AAARRRGGGHHHHHHH
http://www.stevequayle.com/GG.Images/nuke.blast2.jpg
:lol:
Peter Henry
18-08-05, 05:00 PM
jeeeezuuuuus! GYKD...Mate get back on the cigs and fast! You are trying to pick fights with the world for no reason.If you want to enjoy the forum use appropriate subjects and stop being so confrontational!
Bikes mate,bikes and the odd little giggle...not too difficult surely?! :shock:
I would also like to say that I TOTALLY agree with welshwop and lynw in respect of their contributions to this thread. 8)
Visordown? Well anyone who thinks that is any kind of benchmark for the way forward,really does need help! :shock:
I vote lust by the way :wink:
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Must......not........click......quote button.....SV4ME....will kill!!! AAARRRGGGHHHHHHH Why?? :wink: :lol: :lol:
http://www.stevequayle.com/GG.Images/nuke.blast2.jpg nice pic...
sorry cant help myself sometimes *runs and hides*
I vote lust by the way :wink:
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lol yes, this was completely and utterly
http://64.246.11.82/images/u/UP_Derailed_Train_in_Barstow.jpg.71051.jpg
Peter Henry
18-08-05, 05:06 PM
errr Benji....You paid to use that pic then? :lol: 8)
:stupid:
any chance you could post it again GYKD :wink: didnt get a chance to look at it the 1st time!
GYKD say what you want m8 (as long as its not too porno ;)), if peeps dont like it then they dont have to read it simple. If you want to rant then rant thats what FREINDS are for, that what i liked about this forum when i 1st joined. Their are some very knowledgeable and friendly people on here and I dare alot of tehm have made some good freinds i.e meeting up and rideouts. If you cant have a whinge to friends then who can you whinge too. i.e the people on this board. I disagree with lynw comment about people being homophobic, now unless ive missed a post or a comment on what GYKD has posted i think its a tad rude and very WOMANLIKE (presumptious) ;) :p JOKE to suggest it, if i have missed such a post i apologise.
GYKD post, flame, write whatever but as long as you keep it fairly sensible to everyone to feck off!!
comments on that please Jabba.
I thought your post was inappropriate for these Forums. Certainly, it was against the spirit of them.
How many times does John Tapley have to remind us that he wants this site to be considered U-rated?
You post was not U-rated and I wouldn't have wanted my kids to have stumbled across it on a site that should offer a haven from that sort adult-orientated post well-written and thought provoking it might have been.
FFS fella, give us all a break, eh?
can you pm me what you posted origionally GYKD ?
this thread made me laugh a little bit.
Quiff Wichard
18-08-05, 07:19 PM
We will be in danger of losing this complete forum if we aint careful!!!
John tapley will just not be bothered.
GYND- everyone has troubles...some have troubles yet still offer their time free to run this site and to monitor it..!!
I know u havin a bad time in yer relationship mate and gay straight bi or wotever that hurts..but this is not the place to vent it..!!
agree fully with welshwop...excellent response..
I have sympathy for ya GYKD if u want some advice- from a guy who's had his heart broken this is an open invitation to pm me- a broken heart hurts gay or straight-
search the net theres some ace sites to vent yer anger- wots that one with the postcard and u can just write wot u want..
post a letter to god and actually post it!! write it all down.....
Write it all down then rip it up
write all yer thoughts and anger and then set fire to it !
anything mate...but rub yer shoulders and lose that chip else you will lose respect from others, lose self respect and lose yer mates !!!..
keep strong... but keep from postin it on this particular site..!!
serious ..go the doctors..tell yer MUM !! ,,tell yer mate- we all hurt !! phone the samaritans..!!be positive and harness that energy turn it positive !
Bikes mate, bikes and the odd little giggle...
See, in my view that's exactly as I see SV650.org.
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We will be in danger of losing this complete forum if we aint careful!!!
John tapley will just not be bothered.
GYND- everyone has troubles...some have troubles yet still offer their time free to run this site and to monitor it..!!
I know u havin a bad time in yer relationship mate and gay straight bi or wotever that hurts..but this is not the place to vent it..!!
agree fully with welshwop...excellent response..
I have sympathy for ya GYKD if u want some advice- from a guy who's had his heart broken this is an open invitation to pm me- a broken heart hurts gay or straight-
search the net theres some ace sites to vent yer anger- wots that one with the postcard and u can just write wot u want..
post a letter to god and actually post it!! write it all down.....
Write it all down then rip it up
write all yer thoughts and anger and then set fire to it !
anything mate...but rub yer shoulders and lose that chip else you will lose respect from others, lose self respect and lose yer mates !!!..
keep strong... but keep from postin it on this particular site..!!
serious ..go the doctors..tell yer MUM !! ,,tell yer mate- we all hurt !! phone the samaritans..!!be positive and harness that energy turn it positive !
Another spot-on post :thumbsup:
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northwind
18-08-05, 08:48 PM
Without seeing the original post, I don't think I can really have an opinion on this thread. Still, I suppose there's 2 main points to it.
1) Obviously the site rules are set by John and enforced by our mods, and for myself, I think they do an excellent job. The U-rating, whether or not you agree with it, should be observed.
But...
2) I couldn't agree more with the people who say "if you don't like it, don't read it". If there was something specifically wrong with this post then yes, that deserves comment, but it does seem to me that GYKD's posts are getting more attention than others do. I've never seen a post of his that would cause actual offence to anyone but the homophobic. I'm not accusing anyone of being homophobic though...
It's not offence that's being given- it seems to be that GYKD's getting a lot of criticism not for that but for just irritating people. And as has been said, if anyone doesn't like what he posts, as long as it's not out and out offensive then what's the problem? Just don't read a thread he starts. I've never yet seen him bring it into other threads so it's hardly invasive.
If someone is giving offence, then of course that's a problem, but I really can't see that this is the case here.
Whatever's being said here, this forum isn't just about bikes and biking issues. It never has ben for as long as I've been here. It's a community, not just some faceless owner's club. That's what makes it so fantastic. And if we start shooting certain members down for making personal posts then where does it end? Surely half the point of IB is that it's not a Biking Issue- that's why it's a seperate forum...
Peter Henry
18-08-05, 09:32 PM
I think an extremely well composed response from Quiff and very valid points by Northwind.
The terrible shame in all of this is that GYKD to me appears to be a nice bloke,but unfortunately he has wound one or two people up. Not saying who's fault it is.
Avoiding his posts? Good comment but unfortunately they have become something akin to an impending traffic accident...you are there stood by and can see what is about to happen. And although you would rather not....you are inexplicably drawn to look. We all know that is true.
Another great shame is poor old GYKD is becoming to many a PITA... they see a new thread by him and find themselves perhaps thinking.." What the hell is he coming out with now...."
Acknowledging that perhaps people of other persuasions have vented personal problems etc in the past and this has been accepted to a degree...why dont we draw a line here and request that no further emotional/relationship/sexual of any kind should be posted at all? I have to agree that there are far better outlets for such things? I for one would never consider bringing personal issues to the forum.
If this is a forum about being friendly, please let's not get starry eyed and think everyone on here is our own personal friend because they are definitely not! So many people have a forum persona which is so different from the person in reality.
If you have made genuine friends on here,then simply email/pm them if you need to vent.
I do think that this whole saga has created a lot of bad feeling and I am sure made the voluntary job of being a monitor a whole lot less attractive.
But at the end of the day...what the hell do I know? :?
But at the end of the day...what the hell do I know?
it gets dark ?
sorry - couldnt resist.
mysteryjimbo
18-08-05, 10:13 PM
Out of these 5 pages.....i think GYKD left on page 2.
Discussion is done me thinks. He's been ousted....
Out of these 5 pages.....i think GYKD left on page 2.
Discussion is done me thinks. He's been ousted....
that wasnt the objective I dont think by anyone.
Ive had my share of problems this year, some of which are known, a lot arent. Its had a major impact on me resulting in a reasonably public falling apart. The support I had from people on here has been amazing.
GYKD would have that if thats what he wanted.
When I realised I was in a bad way I left here for a while and came back when I was sorted. I didnt post any personal stuff here [I dont think I did or I made an effort not to], other than the van man and the fact its triggered off my depression again.
Its about balancing the help you get on here from people who would do what they can with making people uncomfortable by posting too much personal information continuously.
I hope Joe hasnt left for good, and is getting his head sorted.
But he needs to get deal with the chip on his shoulder and accept that life is difficult, unfair and everyone of us has probably gone through some of what he has this year. If he could get past the world is against him and the idea no-one can possibly understand because no-one hurts as much then he will see there are a lot of people on here who care and would help if they could. But you cant help someone if they wont help themself.
End of the day, its a loss and I hope its not permanent. :(
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