Why Do Suzuki Use S*%t Bolts?

[M65]

Why is it that everytime I do ANYTHING on my '03 650s, the bolts always snap? They did it when I replaced my snow shovel with a Hamicad number plate holder and now they've done it again.

I was lossening the bolt that tightens the cluth lever bracket so I could adjust it, as I hadnt really bothered doing this since I got the bike. Half way through undoing it and CRACK! The bottom half is stuck in the clamp and the top half is in my hand.

Does anyone have any ideas to sort this? I tried drilling the bolt out, but the drill bit has kicked off slightly to one side and left some of the bolt in the clamp. A friend of mine is bringing me his stud extractor home tonight to try that, but if that doesnt work, what if any, are my other options? Hopefully, some of you more mechanically sound riders will have some ideas.

Cheers boys and girls.

[tinpants]

Suzuki (well all jap bikes, actually!) use cr*p fasteners. My advice would be to drill and tap out to the next standard size if possible. Then put a good dollop of copper grease on the new bolt before screwing it in(ooh-er) :twisted:

[kwak zzr]

suzuki are the worst, copper grease is the way to go.

[Viney]

Just buy a new bracket. Remember this

Big hands small threads. The bolts on the clamps should be 5ftlb's which in real terms is , finger tight then pinch up with a open ended spanner.

I think to date, i have only ever had one bolt snap. I had more trouble when i pro bolted the bike. Now those things are crap.

[M65]

Was thinking of a new bracket but to get one on I have to take the bar end off (rubber grommet inside bar is cemented in I think! Cant get the bar end bolt back in now as nut that it screws to is loose inside the bar behind the grommet), remove switchgear (one screw for this is about 1cm away from the plastics on the underneath of the switchgear and I dont have the worlds smallest screwdriver to get to it!) and then remove the grips which are glued in place. It seems more trouble than its worth.

Think I might just follow nick lords advise and get someone who is better at drilling than me (as if!!!..... oh, THAT kind of drilling :wink: ) and then retap.

Its just so :evil: :evil: :evil: annoying that a tiny little everyday job can cause so much hassle because Suzuki use such cr4p parts. Im never getting another Suzuki ever again.

[sprocket]

Tis a very good question. All the bolts which hold on the carb covers on my bike seem to be made out of cheese and have just died on me.

Does anyone know if its possible to replace all these types of bolts with allen head bolts or can I just getter metal bolts from somewhere?

Someone mentioned getting one of the tub 'o' bolts kits and using them.

[echomadman]

i have to get new carbs for my bandit thanks to suzukis crappy bolts, and since saturday my indicator is held on with duct tape, as the bulb went and both screws holding on the indicator lens sheared off.

[kwak zzr]

come on SUZUKI it wouldnt cost much more to use decent bolts!

[snoopy]

Even BMW's don't use stainless bolts, but at least they wouldn't resort to using a cast rather than forged gear change selector!

[svpilot]

Tis a very good question. All the bolts which hold on the carb covers on my bike seem to be made out of cheese and have just died on me.

Does anyone know if its possible to replace all these types of bolts with allen head bolts or can I just getter metal bolts from somewhere?

Someone mentioned getting one of the tub 'o' bolts kits and using them.

I feel your pain :(

I had a bolt snap off in cam cover (the rad mounting bolt) then my stud extractor snap in the bolt :shock: :cry: I WISH I just drilled the thing out in the first place. If the screw extractor snaps, you just enter a whole other world of pain. My advice would be to try and persevere with the drill. As for bolts check out http://www.chewys-stuff.co.uk/ he'll do ya a complete set of ss bolts with allen heads (and invest in a tub of coppaslip) I have a set on my bike. Pukka.

Good luck!

[tricky]

Tis a very good question. All the bolts which hold on the carb covers on my bike seem to be made out of cheese and have just died on me.

Does anyone know if its possible to replace all these types of bolts with allen head bolts or can I just getter metal bolts from somewhere?

Someone mentioned getting one of the tub 'o' bolts kits and using them.

There actually a special chocolate-cheese alloy, I'm gradually replacing everything on mine with stainless.

http://www.namrick.co.uk are very good.

Probably worth buying a good set of taps and dyes, you'll be amazed at what you can save (I am pretty ham-fisted with the old leccy drill myself)

[Richie]

If the SV650 were lets say £150 more, and it came with every nut and bolt in Stainless steel, I think it would still sell in the numbers that it does... So why save monry on crap swiss chesse nut's bolt's.
but all is not lost as
:D chewy22 does a kit for the SV... stainless steel bolt kit...

http://www.chewys-stuff.co.uk/
I'm in the middle of getting mine through a diffrent sauce at the mo.

[sprocket]

Yeah I bought chewy's bolt kit but this only covers the engine bolts I got some more off him at the same time for some other bolts I snapped. But it would be nice just to go over the whole bike and replace verything.

[chewy22]

Yeah I bought chewy's bolt kit but this only covers the engine bolts I got some more off him at the same time for some other bolts I snapped. But it would be nice just to go over the whole bike and replace verything.

I am sure the kit I sent you coverS the full bike not just the engine.
See list below

Full bike stainless bolt kit for sv650 pre k3, includes 70 bolts and 21 washers as follows:
Left hand handle bar clamp bolt.
Right hand handle bar clamp bolt.
Right hand handle bar clamp bolt.
Front brake reservoir flanged button head bolt.
Front brake reservoir 1 Allen bolt.
Radiator 3 mounts + 3 m6 penny washers 3 spring washers.
Starter motor 2 bolts.
Rear brake pipe clamp on swingarm 1 bolt.
Rubber chain runner bolt + 1 m6 penny washer.
Chain guard button flanged + 2 m6 penny washers.
Rear shock protector 1 bolt.
Pinch bolts bottom of forks bolts.
Speedo cable bolt left fork bolt.
Brake pipe clamps both forks flanged bolts + two penny washers.
Brake pipe clamp under triple clamp 1 bolt.
Horn bracket 1 bolt.
Under tray bolts + 4 m6 penny washers.
Rear brake caliper 2 bolts + 2 m8 washers.
Front mudguard 4 bolts.
L/h engine bolts kit 13 bolts see separate list.
R/h engine bolts kit 24 bolts see separate list.
71 bolts in total plus 25 assorted washers all high grade stainless steel hexagon socket head / allen bolts.

[Saint Matt]

Cos they're S*%t people

[Viney]

It is also about using a decent screwdriver to start with. As for the screws on the carbs, i use a impact driver now and a gentle tap, or a pair of locking pliers on the side. Its abotu how tight they are compared to the quality of the screw bolt!

[sprocket]

Yeah I bought chewy's bolt kit but this only covers the engine bolts I got some more off him at the same time for some other bolts I snapped. But it would be nice just to go over the whole bike and replace verything.

I am sure the kit I sent you coverS the full bike not just the engine.
See list below

Full bike stainless bolt kit for sv650 pre k3, includes 70 bolts and 21 washers as follows:
Left hand handle bar clamp bolt.
Right hand handle bar clamp bolt.
Right hand handle bar clamp bolt.
Front brake reservoir flanged button head bolt.
Front brake reservoir 1 Allen bolt.
Radiator 3 mounts + 3 m6 penny washers 3 spring washers.
Starter motor 2 bolts.
Rear brake pipe clamp on swingarm 1 bolt.
Rubber chain runner bolt + 1 m6 penny washer.
Chain guard button flanged + 2 m6 penny washers.
Rear shock protector 1 bolt.
Pinch bolts bottom of forks bolts.
Speedo cable bolt left fork bolt.
Brake pipe clamps both forks flanged bolts + two penny washers.
Brake pipe clamp under triple clamp 1 bolt.
Horn bracket 1 bolt.
Under tray bolts + 4 m6 penny washers.
Rear brake caliper 2 bolts + 2 m8 washers.
Front mudguard 4 bolts.
L/h engine bolts kit 13 bolts see separate list.
R/h engine bolts kit 24 bolts see separate list.
71 bolts in total plus 25 assorted washers all high grade stainless steel hexagon socket head / allen bolts.

DOH, soz chewy ... teach me to not look at things LOL Havn't had a chance to put it on yet so didn't realise LOL cheers mate :D

[northwind]

As for the screws on the carbs, i use a impact driver now and a gentle tap, or a pair of locking pliers on the side. Its abotu how tight they are compared to the quality of the screw bolt!

Should never have been a phillips headed screw there though... a hex or allen head would make so much more sense.

[sprocket]

Should never have been a phillips headed screw there though... a hex or allen head would make so much more sense.

AMEN to that :D

[21QUEST]

It is also about using a decent screwdriver to start with. As for the screws on the carbs, i use a impact driver now and a gentle tap, or a pair of locking pliers on the side. Its abotu how tight they are compared to the quality of the screw bolt!

To be honest IMO crap bolts or not I believe thats the main problem ie not using decent/proper fitting tools.

Cheers
Ben

[21QUEST]

As for the screws on the carbs, i use a impact driver now and a gentle tap, or a pair of locking pliers on the side. Its abotu how tight they are compared to the quality of the screw bolt!

Should never have been a phillips headed screw there though... a hex or allen head would make so much more sense.

Why , then the problem becomes over thightening :roll: :lol: :wink:

Cheers
Ben

[northwind]

Ah, but that you can point at the user and say "Your fault". But when I was getting my carbs apart for the first time there was (IMO) no question aboput using the wrong tools, even had a wee bit of grinding paste in the threads to stop the driver slipping. One of the screws deformed with the impact driver and another spun off entirely, that's just rubbish... Lucky they're realtively easy to fix when they go wrong (except the carb screws...)

[erics02]

speaking of crap bolts, I put new brake and clutch levers on the other day. Well, the mounting bolt for the clutch lever was stripped, so after 10 minutes with a pair of vice grips and a power drill (long story, thank you beer) I got the lever off. I spent 10$ at suzuki for a new bolt and nut... 10$??? I said? I guess thats just what things cost now adays.

[Lozzo]

Why is it that everytime I do ANYTHING on my '03 650s, the bolts always snap?


Because the bikes only cost £4500 quid new, what do you expect?

[yorkie_chris]

Tis a very good question. All the bolts which hold on the carb covers on my bike seem to be made out of cheese and have just died on me.

Does anyone know if its possible to replace all these types of bolts with allen head bolts or can I just getter metal bolts from somewhere?

Someone mentioned getting one of the tub 'o' bolts kits and using them.

They've got a smooth shaft on top of them which is unusual, they need to locate fairly accurately so I wouldn't like to swap them for standard bolts, the way to do it is to take one into an engineers supply place and see if you can get stainless ones.

All my float bowl screws are stainless socket capped ones, so are dizzyblondes since I sorted her carbs out.

[Spanner Man]

Morning all.

Aint you heavy handed lot ever heard of penetrating oil? & I don't mean WD40.
Buy a tin of decent quality penetrant & use it before attempting to undo anything.
It can take years to develop a 'feel' for when a bolt is just tight, or is about to snap. If a bolt starts to undo but doesn't come free immediately, get some more penetrant in there & work it GENTLY back & forth.

I spend all day spannering & rarely have to snap a bolt because it is stuck fast. So also take note of some of the tips already posted, such as grinding paste on the tip of a screwdriver, or gripping a screw head with a pair of pliers or 'Mole' grips, They work!

Beware replacement bolts, some of the stainless ones on the market are made from a low grade stainless, which are worse than the standard ones from a hardness point of view, & are harder to drill out to boot..

There's little or no difference in the quality of the fasteners fitted to any Japanese bike, they're all average in my opinion.
If you really want to see chocolate bolts you should try showing a spanner to some of the Chinese W@NK on the market.:D

Lastly be careful where you put Copper grease, as it's abrasive, & contains particles which can block things like carburettor jets. Some of the cheaper ones are more like copper filings that fine grit.
So for wheel spindles, & carburettor screws etc an ultra high melting point grease is the stuff to use.

Cheers.

[northwind]

Well said that man, people use copper grease like it's god's own lubricant but it's designed for specific jobs. I found my mate Ben had used it in his wheel bearings a while back :smt100I dread to think what other uses it gets put to in rooms other than the garage :smt003

[Spanner Man]

Well said that man, people use copper grease like it's god's own lubricant but it's designed for specific jobs. I found my mate Ben had used it in his wheel bearings a while back :smt100I dread to think what other uses it gets put to in rooms other than the garage :smt003

I've seen it in wheel bearings too, but the best has got to be on cam cover bolts EEEK! My local Motorcycle City (remember them) used to remove cam cover bolts, & suspension linkage bolts, & then apply copperslip to them & screw 'em back in!
It was done to make it look as if they had actually been there, Bleedin' To55ers! No wonder they went bust eh!

When it comes to sprays, penetrants & lubricants, (MATRON)! I have a bigger range in my workshop than any branch of Ann Summers.:D It's a case of horses for courses, as some do a particular job better than others.

I wouldn't use them anywhere other than the workshop though:D:D

Cheers.

[ejohnh]

Too right Spanner man - some stainless is crap.. How much extra are better quality carbon steel bolts anyway?

[Stradders]

M65

I had EXACTLY the same snag a couple of weeks ago trying to fit the control box of my new Oxford Hot Hands (cos its bloody freezing up here at the moment).

I am still a MASSIVE novice when it comes to working on a bike but as I was tightening the bolt that holds the clutch lever in, having placed the control box, it was all feeling just fine until with no warning the whole bolt just ripped out and I was left with the head of the bolt in my hand, the body of the bolt inside the lever bracket and a floppy clutch lever. Talk about P****d off.

I dont have an 'easy out' and so I ended up having to put all the fairings back together (which took over an hour) and then riding the bike to my local dealer (15 miles away) and getting them to replace it. I was lucky as the remains of the bolt came out pretty easily but had it been difficult to remove the dealers solution was that it would be cheaper in the long run to just cut the lever off and replace the whole thing. He also mentioned that the bolts were particularly difficult to get right and that it was a common problem with some bikes.

My only recommendation is to take the bike to a dealer (it only cost about £25 to get them to replace the bolt) and then take real care putting new bolts in, and make sure you have lots of grease whenever you do more work. I was considering buying a torque wrench but am not sure it is worth the expense.

Hope you get on OK.

Ride Safe.

Stradders.

[-Ralph-]

Penetrating oil, decent quality tools, and take it easy. WD40 does have it's uses 'cos it comes in tiny aerosol cans with a wee tube that can get into tight spots. Brands like GT85 are better but usually come in big aerosols or hand pump spray bottles.

[Tiger 55]

When it comes to sprays, penetrants & lubricants, (MATRON)! I have a bigger range in my workshop than any branch of Ann Summers.:D It's a case of horses for courses, as some do a particular job better than others.
Can you name some names please Spanner Man? You know, for the technically challenged?

[tomjones2]

Morning all.

There's little or no difference in the quality of the fasteners fitted to any Japanese bike, they're all average in my opinion.
If you really want to see chocolate bolts you should try showing a spanner to some of the Chinese W@NK on the market.:D

Cheers.

In my limited experince both honda and kwak bolts are just as bad. Particaually the ones that attach bodywork/engine covers, althoguh as spannerman says, even with a little care most will come off cleanly. If I can do it anyone can.

[kwak zzr]

honda fasterners and bolts ive had no problems with, kawasaki and yam are bad but the suzuki are really shi#e.

[MeridiaNx]

Can you name some names please Spanner Man? You know, for the technically challenged?

I'll second this! All was going swimmingly on stripping my DR650 today and had followed all the steps to getting the engine out, just the mounting bolts were left. Needless to say that one is stuck absolutely fast, probably because the manual recommends using Thread Lock Super on those bolts when they are put back in.

So off I headed to Halford's, found some 3-in-1 Professional Penetrating Spray only to find out on getting home that despite looking different it's still made by WD40 if you check the small print on the back. I'm not sure the stuff is any different and I still can't get the bloody thing to budge - socket, spanner or mole grips. Is this penetrating oil any different then? And any tips for getting a thread locked bolt off? :confused:

[ejohnh]

I'll second this! All was going swimmingly on stripping my DR650 today and had followed all the steps to getting the engine out, just the mounting bolts were left. Needless to say that one is stuck absolutely fast, probably because the manual recommends using Thread Lock Super on those bolts when they are put back in.

So off I headed to Halford's, found some 3-in-1 Professional Penetrating Spray only to find out on getting home that despite looking different it's still made by WD40 if you check the small print on the back. I'm not sure the stuff is any different and I still can't get the bloody thing to budge - socket, spanner or mole grips. Is this penetrating oil any different then? And any tips for getting a thread locked bolt off? :confused:

I had a tip from a mechanic of many years used to working on all sorts of sh1te. --- soak the area in penetrating oil and then using a hammer and punch(I use a concave tip punch) sharply tap around the area in question. Obviously the weight you use depends on the material but the idea is to set up a vibration so that the oil can penetrate. Be patient, let the oil work.

Use a surface gripping impact socket and, again, sharply tap the bar.

Having suggested that I can see some donut using a lump hammer on an aluminium casing - DON'T. If you haven't got a light hammer forget it.

[yorkie_chris]

If its an engine mount then it should be strong enough to take this, but use your judgement.
Put the socket on it, a 6point one if you've got it, and give it a good belt with a hammer, this will sometimes loosen the bolt enough, if not then buy an impact driver, they are very useful (converts impact of a hammer into a torque)

[MeridiaNx]

Hehe, I imagine if all the force I applied was transferred to the thread rather than the cheese bolt...;) I think it'll give way before the thread does unfortunately, can already see slight rounding off so I backed off to think of a different approach.

Have looked up impact drivers on Screwfix though - £5.50! Sounds like a bargain but anyone got any experience of whether their cheaper stuff is any good? For e.g. also want to get their £12.50!! torque wrench 28-210 Nm with adaptor and extension bar. Darn sight cheaper than the £60 from Halfords! While I'm at it, can I use my standard sockets on the end of the driver or will the force be too much and require special sockets as well?

[yorkie_chris]

Draper 3/8 driver torque wrench does down to 10Nm which will do pretty much anything that its worth using one on... expect to pay about £30 from a motor factor at a guess, mine was £25 at full discount.
Don't bother with the really cheap stuff but unless you work every day theres no point going for the top line stuff.

Impact driver might be alright, then again it may be made of turnip.

[MeridiaNx]

expect to pay about £30 from a motor factor at a guess

Forgive me for being ignorant, but what is a motor factor exactly? From what Google tells me I'm reading something along the lines of a group/alliance of independent companies? Can I purchase from them as a customer or do I have be trade?

[yorkie_chris]

A shop that sells car bits :p

For example my local one, ace motor factors, you can either go in to the shop and purchase things normally or if you are trade then you ring up and order the bits, they deliver to various garages who are their trade customers.

[ejohnh]

Hehe, I imagine if all the force I applied was transferred to the thread rather than the cheese bolt...;) I think it'll give way before the thread does unfortunately, can already see slight rounding off so I backed off to think of a different approach.

Have looked up impact drivers on Screwfix though - £5.50! Sounds like a bargain but anyone got any experience of whether their cheaper stuff is any good? For e.g. also want to get their £12.50!! torque wrench 28-210 Nm with adaptor and extension bar. Darn sight cheaper than the £60 from Halfords! While I'm at it, can I use my standard sockets on the end of the driver or will the force be too much and require special sockets as well?

If you are going to be impacting on the socket, use an impact socket. These are surface gripping sockets( 6 point) and are built to withstand the shock.

[northwind]

I'm not spannerman, but, Plusgas is a pretty decent penetrating oil.

Draper are quite tricky, some of their stuff is really decent and some of it's absolute mince. It can be quite hard to tell which is which too, frinstance I have 2 Draper crimp tools, the more expensive "pro" one is hopeless and badly made, the cheapo one is pretty good.

My hand impact is a very cheap one, I just use it with normal sockets on the odd occasion I use it with nuts- usually it's for screws or allen bolts, in fact, usually it's for Kawasaki allen bolts these days :mrgreen: Impact sockets are designed for use with an air or electric impact wrench, which produce massive forces compared to a hand impact, if you use a standard socket with one of those it can shatter and fire sharp pieces of socket into your brain... Whereas with a hand impact, it'll probably just crack the socket and probably just maul your bolt.

[yorkie_chris]

it can shatter and fire sharp pieces of socket into your brain

Not that you would exaggerate at all :rolleyes:

[northwind]

Purely for educational purposes you understand :D But joking apart, they can do a lot of damage, especially with cheaper sockets which tend to be brittle.

[lukemillar]

I never had any problems with any of the bolts on the SV, or any of my bikes come to think of it. I am also a believer of right tool for the right job and without being heavy handed!

I like to buy more expensive tools - mainly because If I have spent money on them then I take much better care on them rather than the cheaper stuff which I'm not so worried about. Not that everything that is cheap is rubbish and vice versa, but you know what I mean.

I think that tools should last for a lifetime, so spending more once makes more sense than buying the same thing 5 times over at 1/5th the price each time.

[Spanner Man]

Morning all.

WD40 bought the 3 in 1 brand a while back, the penetrant is nothing like WD40, & is pretty good in my opinion. As it's available in Halfords it's probably the easiest to find. Another good one is as Northwind says is Plus Gas. There's also a product called Double T which seems to work pretty well as a penetrant.
The best ones, such as Wurth Rost off. or Debloc are usually only available to the trade.
Out of the WD40 types on the market GT85 is the best all rounder, as it contains Teflon which acts as a dry lube.
Remember to give any aerosol a damn good shaking before using it.

Seized fasteners are a pain! I'm fortunate to have a wide variety of equipment at my disposal, such as impact guns, & air chisels which can often be used to good effect, when dealing with a stubborn fastener. However, take note of some of the tips already posted, such as tapping the area surrounding the fastener etc.
Sometimes a sharp tap on the head of the fastener can help it come free. As already said, vibration is the key to success as it can help the penetrant get in, & also shake the fastener loose. Be careful, no sledgehammers on engine cases please!

Occasionally further tightening of the fastener can help, but this is where you really need a 'feel' for things.
Heat is another useful aid, but extreme care must be used if you're using a blowlamp on a bike for obvious reasons. On small screws in delicate items such as carburettors. A large soldering iron can be used to good effect, it takes a while to get enough heat transfer though.

Tools are another subject entirely. Nowadays there are lots of decent quality tools available at reasonable prices. Such as Halfords pro, Laser, Draper Expert etc. All the aforementioned do a cheaper range of tools, These are to be avoided, as they're barely any better than you'll find at your local market.
Avoid buying sets of sockets or spanners, as it'll contain sizes you're unlikely to ever use such as 15, 16 & 18mm etc.

Cheers.

[gettin2dizzy]

For all the calls of 'For £4500 what do you expect' remember that you can get a car for 5k, Kias even sell with 5-7 year warranties.

[ejohnh]

I never had any problems with any of the bolts on the SV, or any of my bikes come to think of it. I am also a believer of right tool for the right job and without being heavy handed!

I like to buy more expensive tools - mainly because If I have spent money on them then I take much better care on them rather than the cheaper stuff which I'm not so worried about. Not that everything that is cheap is rubbish and vice versa, but you know what I mean.

I think that tools should last for a lifetime, so spending more once makes more sense than buying the same thing 5 times over at 1/5th the price each time.

Most of my imperial spanners and sockets etc I have had a lifetime but do you seriously believe that a cross head - pozidriv or phillips etc - screwdriver should last a lifetime with no means of renovating it? As soon as I see any sign of wear on mine I throw them away and renew.

[yorkie_chris]

IIRC the snap-on screwdrivers you can exchange for new when the heads are worn out.
Depends how much he was talking about spending.

[Spanner Man]

Morning all.

Snap-on are not guaranteed against wearing out, only breaking.
If you're lucky a Snap-on dealer may change a worn screwdriver blade FOC, I guess it depends on how much you spend with that particular dealer.

Cheers.

[northwind]

For all the calls of 'For £4500 what do you expect' remember that you can get a car for 5k, Kias even sell with 5-7 year warranties.

Aye, but they make far more of them, and there's more interchangability between models, so they have massive economies of scale. Even a best-selling bike shifts less units than a fairly unpopular car.

[MeridiaNx]

Cheers for that Spannerman (and everyone else!), good to know I didn't just duplicate my WD-40 supplies.

On the subject of heath robinson ways around stuck bolts, I was given a tip at work today by one guy who has made a couple of choppers for himself. He said that one resort is to hacksaw a groove into the bolt head to mimic a flathead screw top and then just screw it out. I can see that this might give me more 'bite' on a bolt that has rounded on the outside. Given that I'm replacing all my bolts on rebuild anyway, is this a tip you'd agree with?

[yorkie_chris]

Last resort maybe, but if the bolts that stuck that the head didn't have enough strength then a flathead screwdriver probably isn't going to have enough purchse either.
This situation is where its good to have loads of random sockets, find one thats a bit too small, a 12 point one preferably and batter it onto the rounded head. That sometimes works.

[MeridiaNx]

Last resort maybe, but if the bolts that stuck that the head didn't have enough strength then a flathead screwdriver probably isn't going to have enough purchse either

You know what, exactly the same thought occurred to me earlier and made me feel a bit sheepish. Won't ever get enough force to match my weight on the end of a bar.

Tried blowtorching the nut tonight to expand it, either to loosen it or allow the penetrant to get further in. Still no luck. Borrowing an impact driver from a guy at work tomorrow though, hope that works.

[lukemillar]

Most of my imperial spanners and sockets etc I have had a lifetime but do you seriously believe that a cross head - pozidriv or phillips etc - screwdriver should last a lifetime with no means of renovating it? As soon as I see any sign of wear on mine I throw them away and renew.

To be honest I was thinking more sockets and spanners than screwdrivers as I know what you mean, but I do have an small Britool 1/4 inch driver ratchet + changeable heads - allen, torx, cross head etc and these have been going strong for a couple of years now, fairly light use admittedly, but still very happy with them

[Spanner Man]

On the subject of heath robinson ways around stuck bolts, I was given a tip at work today by one guy who has made a couple of choppers for himself. He said that one resort is to hacksaw a groove into the bolt head to mimic a flathead screw top and then just screw it out. I can see that this might give me more 'bite' on a bolt that has rounded on the outside. Given that I'm replacing all my bolts on rebuild anyway, is this a tip you'd agree with?

Morning all.

As Yorkie says you probably wouldn't be able to get enough leverage. However his tip on battering (him & that hammer:D) on a smaller old socket isn't a bad one provididng you're careful. You can also buy special sockets that are designed to grip rounded off bolt heads.
As it's an engine mounting bolt that you're stuck on (pun intentional) it's most likely that the engine casing has corroded around the bolt. In which case you're probably going to have to resort to drilling the ends of the bolt off, for I doubt that an impact driver will work.
I have seen cases where the corrosion is so severe that the build up of corrosion expands to a point where the casing cracks!

This is where regular dosing with FS365 or ACF50 etc really helps. A friend of mine who dispatches gives his bikes a weekly dosing with a right old cocktail of things including GT85, silicone lubricant, & FS365.
I have never come across a fastener on his bike that I cannot undo, even at telephone number mileages.
His old XJ900 had cracked it's subframe at 140k miles, & I had to remove the rear mudguard to enable me to weld it. The bolts holding the mudguard on screw through from the wheel side, the heads of the which were completely pebble dashed to a point where they were basically round. Cue the special sockets I mentioned earlier, & hey presto! They undid as if they were installed the week before.

Cheers.

[Viney]

In all my experience, i think i have only had issues with one main bolt, and that wasnt a suzuki bolt either, and the screws on the carb flot bowls. Other than that, i found all the bolts etc to be fine :)

[ejohnh]

Morning all.

As Yorkie says you probably wouldn't be able to get enough leverage. However his tip on battering (him & that hammer:D) on a smaller old socket isn't a bad one provididng you're careful. You can also buy special sockets that are designed to grip rounded off bolt heads.
As it's an engine mounting bolt that you're stuck on (pun intentional) it's most likely that the engine casing has corroded around the bolt. In which case you're probably going to have to resort to drilling the ends of the bolt off, for I doubt that an impact driver will work.
I have seen cases where the corrosion is so severe that the build up of corrosion expands to a point where the casing cracks!

This is where regular dosing with FS365 or ACF50 etc really helps. A friend of mine who dispatches gives his bikes a weekly dosing with a right old cocktail of things including GT85, silicone lubricant, & FS365.
I have never come across a fastener on his bike that I cannot undo, even at telephone number mileages.
His old XJ900 had cracked it's subframe at 140k miles, & I had to remove the rear mudguard to enable me to weld it. The bolts holding the mudguard on screw through from the wheel side, the heads of the which were completely pebble dashed to a point where they were basically round. Cue the special sockets I mentioned earlier, & hey presto! They undid as if they were installed the week before.

Cheers.

Hi Spannerman,

Is that the surface gripping socket? I got some Halford Pro surface grippers(6 points) because my normal 18pointers were just shearing the points of suzy shallow bolt heads. The socket 'flats' seem to be slightly convex. Is that so they 'dig' into the bolt (or nut) flats when force is applied?

:confused:

[yorkie_chris]

Yup thats the idea

[svrash]

Copper grease and stainless is the way to go, when ever i had to do something to the bike i swapped out the OEM bolts for stainless, i started with a big bag of mixed allen bolts from a guy on ebay then just brought the sizes i needed as i went along, the only ones i had problems finding where ones like the M10 bolts that hold the rear caliper togeather because they're fine pitch threads, most of the rest are standard pitch sizes i think

Now 90% of the bolts, nuts and washers are stainless, i used Titanium for the caliper mounting bolts for obvious reasons, the others are things that stainless can't be used or need making due to the part e.g, swingarm nuts, engine mounting bolts etc

[gettin2dizzy]

Aye, but they make far more of them, and there's more interchangability between models, so they have massive economies of scale. Even a best-selling bike shifts less units than a fairly unpopular car.
I thought that too so had a quick search. Suzuki sold 3.13 Million Units (0.6was ATVs, 2.6 Bikes) in 2006 alone
10 months in to 2006 Kia had sold 699,238 units

The manufcaturing, design, material and shipping costs must be far more substantial for a car! Suzuki themselves share huge numbers of parts across the range too, look at pillion pegs, brakes, wheels, tanks, lights....

I think they're just lapping up the cash.

http://www.globalsuzuki.com/corp_info/pdf/2006/2006-1.pdf
http://www.southernsalestt.com/news.php?id=38

[northwind]

Aye, but spread across how many models? 25 totally seperate models in the Suzuki range of UK road bikes (treating, frinstance, all Bandit 12s as one model) , 6 dirt bikes and 10 ATVs. 41 UK models alone, plus the home market bikes. The average model run is going to be 70000, at a guess, and there's not great interchangability of core components. And then you have the high model turnaround- new GSXR every 2 years with a whole new r&d cycle.

Then, you have Kia. Their average volume's going to be not massively higher at 85000, but then most (all?) of their main models share their platform and engine with Hyundai, so only a fraction of the design costs. The model redesign cycle is about 5 years, but you get the exact same engine in half a dozen models, the part interchangability is much higher than with bikes.

[gettin2dizzy]

Aye, but spread across how many models? 25 totally seperate models in the Suzuki range of UK road bikes (treating, frinstance, all Bandit 12s as one model) , 6 dirt bikes and 10 ATVs. 41 UK models alone, plus the home market bikes. The average model run is going to be 70000, at a guess, and there's not great interchangability of core components. And then you have the high model turnaround- new GSXR every 2 years with a whole new r&d cycle.

Then, you have Kia. Their average volume's going to be not massively higher at 85000, but then most (all?) of their main models share their platform and engine with Hyundai, so only a fraction of the design costs. The model redesign cycle is about 5 years, but you get the exact same engine in half a dozen models, the part interchangability is much higher than with bikes.

Apologies for getting inanely nerdy. Figures only appear when I'm still in work mode :compcrash:

A bike like the SV is going in to its 5th year of production and shares most (In a sense) components with the V-strom. As you say it must be that 2 year GSXR r&d that shafts us lot too! They milked the busa for all it was worth!

[Spanner Man]

Copper grease and stainless is the way to go, when ever i had to do something to the bike i swapped out the OEM bolts for stainless, i started with a big bag of mixed allen bolts from a guy on ebay then just brought the sizes i needed as i went along, the only ones i had problems finding where ones like the M10 bolts that hold the rear caliper togeather because they're fine pitch threads, most of the rest are standard pitch sizes i think

Now 90% of the bolts, nuts and washers are stainless, i used Titanium for the caliper mounting bolts for obvious reasons, the others are things that stainless can't be used or need making due to the part e.g, swingarm nuts, engine mounting bolts etc

Morning all.

Most 10mm threads on Japanese Motorcycles are 10x1.25, which is the ISO standard fine pitch. These used to be a real problem to obtain, but recently there are a few more suppliers.
I advise against using anything other than original bolts for retaining items that are under load. Such as brake discs, calipers, & rear sprockets etc. I have seen many fail over the years, including Titanium alloy fasteners.

There is also a lot of confusion over the quality of such replacement fasteners. Due to there being umpteen grades of stainless, & more than one grade of Titanium alloy. One firm whose fasteners are all of the right quality is BSR Aerotek.

Cheers.

[yorkie_chris]

+1

Theres more grades and compositions than you can shake your proverbials at, for example the brake caliper bolts are loaded then unloaded in shear every time you apply the brakes, how do you know those titanium fasteners are designed with good fatigue life in mind?
Don't let this stop you replacing things, but don't just use anything you find lying around!

[markmoto]

its all been said already patience and abit of restraint when it comes to undoing tight nuts brute force isnt the way to go, as spanner man said takes years to get to know how much force you can use on a certain size bolt and with the small ones on the engine casing etc it aint alot before it will snap.
When bolt heads get rounded irwin bolt extrators are the dogs ********.

Irwin bolt extrators (http://www.irwin.com/irwin/consumer/jhtml/detail.jhtml?prodId=IrwinProd100512)

[MeridiaNx]

I advise against using anything other than original bolts for retaining items that are under load.

When you say 'original' do you mean OEM bolts or just that you shouldn't get anything that differs from OEM spec.?

Useful for me to know as I want to put all new bolts on the DR when I rebuild it and I had hoped to go for aftermarket ones rather than the usually extortionate OEM price.

[Fatster]

Ive always bought a bag of stainless cap head allen bolts and replaced as many as possible

[yorkie_chris]

Whats the best thing for a bolt sheared off in a blind hole?

[markmoto]

Whats the best thing for a bolt sheared off in a blind hole?

Depends where it is, if you can remove the cover that the bolts holding on there may be some protruding that you can get a decent pair of grips on ive got a crackin pair of grips that just bite in and dont slip, most likely though is that there wont be any protruding so its dril drill and tap time such a pain in the **** job.

[yorkie_chris]

What about the broken screw extractor things?

[Spanner Man]

When you say 'original' do you mean OEM bolts or just that you shouldn't get anything that differs from OEM spec.?

Useful for me to know as I want to put all new bolts on the DR when I rebuild it and I had hoped to go for aftermarket ones rather than the usually extortionate OEM price.

Morning all.

I mean original Suzuki/Yamaha etc. I have found that O/E Disc bolts & caliper retaining bolts to be fairly soft, & presumably as Yorkie says, are intended to accommodate the inevitable flexing that occurs when braking forces are applied & then released.
Also, being a business I have to fit parts that are of the manufacturers original specification. It's either that or get sued in the event of a non standard part failing under use. As there's no way of deducing the exact specification of an original fastener, I always replace such fasteners with original manufacturers ones.

I see many bikes fitted with non standard fasteners in stressed areas, such as found on braking systems. Most seem fine. However I have seen plenty of iffy fasteners that have failed in use, including some stainless disc retaining bolts on a Thunderace that sheared off under heavy braking. The customer was fortunate in that it was a bike with twin discs, & that he had rounded off 3 of the original bolts on the 'good' disc, hence he hadn't been able to replace them with the new stainless ones.
After sourcing him a new wheel & a pair of discs, out of interest I removed the disc that hadn't sheared its mounting bolts. The 3 stainless bolts that he had managed to replace on that side were showing signs of bending, as were the 3 remaining original ones. Which is hardly surprising as they were doing the job of 6! (Or 12 when the other side let go).
When asked where he obtained the stainless bolts, he said he got them from work. He worked for a firm that supplied fancy office furniture.
I hardly think that a fastener intended to ponce up an MD's swivel chair is of the correct specification to stand the stresses found in motorcycle braking systems.

You have been warned!

As I said check out www.bsr-aerotek.com (http://www.bsr-aerotek.com) if you want top quality replacement fasteners. Most of their stuff is made in the UK too.

Cheers.

[Spanner Man]

What about the broken screw extractor things?

Morning all.

I hate extractors with a passion! They have their uses, but one must remember that if it's a 10mm bolt that you're trying to extract, something of 6 or 7mm diameter is hardly likely to overcome the seizure without being close to breaking point. This again is where one really needs a 'feel' for the job.
Snap-on & probably others sell an extractor that's very short & blunt. If these do shear off, they usually leave enough of themselves protruding, so one can twist them out using a pair of grips.

Broken extractors are impossible to drill out. Sometimes you can weld something onto them which will enable you to twist them out, but usually they crumble when welding heat is applied.
I have ground them out using a small grinding tip on a die grinder, this takes ages, & then some!
Usually it's better to take whatever it is to a specialist spark eroder. This is expensive, & depending on where the broken extractor is, could result in a lot of stripping down. As they obviously can't accommodate a whole bike.

As a general rule, if the head of the fastener has snapped off, due to the thread being seized in you aren't going to succeed with an extractor. So reach for the drill.
If say an allen head has rounded out as opposed to snapping off, it may be worth trying an extractor, but remember 'feel' is the key here.

Cheers.

[drefraser]

Using office furniture fasteners to hold on your brake discs!
That must count as an attempt to get into the Darwin Awards.

[yeti46]

sounds like it to me. i agree with spannerman extractors and taps are b***ers to get out if they snap i snaped one in a zorst and stupidly tried to drill it out. nacking me decent hss drills. (when at college it was mentioned you can get diamond tipped drill but they are expensive) i don't know if this would work though.

[yorkie_chris]

I've got a broken tap out of an iron block before by using a #1 (iirc) welding tip to get the tap hot enough that it lost its hardness, and then it was possible to drill out.
That was a carbon tap, not sure if it would work with a HSS one, same principle applies but it'd probably take a lot more heat.

[yeti46]

I've got a broken tap out of an iron block before by using a #1 (iirc) welding tip to get the tap hot enough that it lost its hardness, and then it was possible to drill out.
That was a carbon tap, not sure if it would work with a HSS one, same principle applies but it'd probably take a lot more heat.

:smt087sorry i was refering to hss drill bits

[yorkie_chris]

Those diamond drill bits you mentioned would probably work, but it would be massively difficult to keep it straight.
I wouldn't fancy using oxyacet on an aluminium casting either

[yeti46]

Those diamond drill bits you mentioned would probably work, but it would be massively difficult to keep it straight.
I wouldn't fancy using oxyacet on an aluminium casting either

woudn't oxy be a bit harsh. i've tried welding with one and it just blasted holes in me work. was good fun tho:D

[yorkie_chris]

Yes it would be massively too hot to use on anything aluminium, however the very focused heat you get can be used to great effect on things of iron and steel by basically heat treating the broken tap or drill to a softer state.

My first attempts with it looked a lot like macaroni cheese, took me a fair while before I could actually get anything to look and work decently.

[ejohnh]

After reading the posting which included a link to Irwin stud extractors I had a shufti around and found this site:

http://www.lawson-his.co.uk/scripts/products.php?cat=Removal%20Tools

Looks like some useful stuff (apart from the classic stud extractors!) on there.

I broke a number of the ordinary stud extractors when I first started doing car maintenance in the 'olden days'. I wouldn't touch'em now - they just don't do what it says on the box.

[yorkie_chris]

The rust flash stuff at the top is a good idea, I use loctite freeze and release, its excellent.

[bikerloach]

Ah yes, the snapped bolt syndrome.

Well to enlighten all of us, I have to mention two facts.

1) Modern vehicle designers tend to use composite fasteners as opposed to save on the weight. Most of these fasteners, although not as strong as standard steel ones, will perform as the overall structural design requires.

but...

2) All fasteners require a specific torque.

Just in case you've never seen a motor vehicle assembly line, well, just about every tool used in the process is regulated for pressure, torque, distance, etc... whatever.

Get yourself used to using torque wrenches etc...

And finally, Copper slip! Be very careful when using this stuff. It's great in that it prevents rust lock, but you have to be aware that when used in a torque specific application that your tool (ie torque wrench) will not register the proper torque due to the change in the coefficient of friction across the threads. For copper-slip use a correction factor of 35-45%. What that means is that if you have to torque a bolt and you are using copperslip on the bolt, you should set your torque wrench to 40% less than required. Example, your torque wrench says 100 N.m, the actual torque in the bolt will be 140N.m

[yorkie_chris]

Same as what I've always said, but everybody has a different idea about correction due to grease / oil and what correction factor to use.

So I use a torque arm

[Tiger 55]

I'm hanging in there, but this thread is getting away from me...

[yeti46]

that rapid freeze stuff looks good