View Full Version : Helen's starter motor
I think Helen's got a problem with her starter motor. If it's not that, then at least there is a problem with the bike.
It was fine on Tuesday, but yesterday, the starter motor no longer seems to engage with the engine. The motor definitely spins, you can hear it, but the engine does not turn over.
My worst fears are that the cog has no teeth left, but I think it more likely that the motor and the cogs may have just become disengaged somehow.
Does anyone have any experiences like this? Any advice? Things to look out for? Any thing I can check for. I'm sure the bike will bump-start, but that's not much good for little Helen.
Any thoughts and suggestions gratefully received.
I have a little experance, having missed out a bit when i rebuilt my enigne. :oops:
Does it make a high pitched wineing sound when you turn it over?
If they arn't aligned and it fires finally fires, um, i believe it can all go downhill very rapidly from that point, i.e. Metal cog wizzing arround generator area, dipositing metal into the oil while murdering your generator. Which, is a bad thing.
But to look at it, you have to remove the generator cover, and you may need to drain the oil to do that. Well i did on mine after leaking half of it over the garage floor.
I have a spare Starter Motor and Cog (all be it slightly worn but perfectly serviceable) if you want :)
Hope that helps, but im not a mechanic so i've more than likely screwd up this advise.
Dan
Yeah this is what I'm afraid of Dan.
Can the starter-motor be removed without draining the oil?
There's no high-pitched noise... just that of the starter-motor spinning.
Presume that if it's really necessary, we can get the clutch cover off without draining the oil, by lying the bike on it's side? Either way, draining the oil wouldn't be a problem as I think it needs doing soon anyway.
:?
Anonymous
25-08-05, 08:38 AM
It's the starter motor clutch gone up-screen. It's a one-way bearing on the back of the flywheel - cost £160-ish, ex-stock Suzuki. ("They never go wrong, sir....but I've sold 20 this month! What a coincidence"). Mine went last month.
It's not difficult but you need to take the rotor off - if you haven't got the puller, DON'T buy one....I'll lend you mine.
PM me for full instructions!
Anonymous
25-08-05, 08:43 AM
160 squids?
Oh dear! :?
Mmmmm. (This sounds like MY Helen's response!!!)
The good news is that it's self-do-able and doesn't take too long to fix.....the bad news is that it ain't cheap!
If that's the case... I think a visit to Suzuki with Warranty documents! :shock:
Anonymous
25-08-05, 08:46 AM
If Nojoy with the dealer, and it's DIY, contact me.
Outch 160quid!
Yes, you can remove the starter motor without draining the oil. And I also have a rotor puller (well when i pick it up off Jordan), and i proberly have a spare starter bearing on my other lump as well :oops: :lol:
Dan
If that's the case... I think a visit to Suzuki with Warranty documents! :shock:
And helen should do the trick :D
Just had a look at the fiches ... doesn't look to complicated, and at least the actual motor is still working. However the internal parts are indeed not cheap!
I don't think we'll know until we can get it apart and look it over.
Anyone looking for anything to do in London tonight? :lol:
Anonymous
25-08-05, 09:11 AM
If you want to do a quick check, take the starter motor off (two screws only, and some oil will come out - about a dessert spoonful).
Stick your finger in the hole in the crankcase. You'll feel a large gear - that's the offending gear and one-way bearing. If it spins in both directions, it's cream-crackered.
Then you start stripping the rest down!!
Have fun.......
El Boc,
any chance you can describe what's involved here for the benefit of the masses (not just The Mass)?
El Boc,
any chance you can describe what's involved here for the benefit of the masses (not just The Mass)?
Exactly what he says, undo the two bolts on the starter motor, remove starter motor, stick finger in hole!!
El Boc,
any chance you can describe what's involved here for the benefit of the masses (not just The Mass)?
Exactly what he says, undo the two bolts on the starter motor, remove starter motor, stick finger in hole!!
Yep. Exactly what it says on the tin. Undo bolts, pull starter motorer, stick finger in hole.
Make sure your engine is off first though :wink:
Dan
El Boc,
any chance you can describe what's involved here for the benefit of the masses (not just The Mass)?
Exactly what he says, undo the two bolts on the starter motor, remove starter motor, stick finger in hole!!
Yeah yeah yeah okay... we both posted at the same minute! :lol:
Anonymous
25-08-05, 09:31 AM
Ok.
This isn't exactly like the average car starter motor. The gear on the end of the starter shaft is fixed, so, if it isn't to be driven by the engine, there has to be some sort of clutch device between it, and the gear that it engages to spin the the crankshaft.
On the back of the flywheel rotor (the big magnetic lump that generates all the electricity etc) is a big gear, and this is engaged by the little gear on the starter motor shaft. The clutch itself comes in the form of a one way bearing in that big gear - it has little pinions in it that let the bearing rotate in one direction only. (Sid Squid et al: please excuse my layman's terms!!!)
ie, the starter motor can spin the crankshaft, but not vice versa.
So, if you find that the big gear freely rotates in BOTH directions, it isn't possible for the motor to spin the crankshaft at all; you get the motor zipping around.....but no start!! I'm as certain as I can be that THIS is your problem.
To get at the gear and bearing, you need to drain the oil, take off the LH covers (Flywheel cover, cluch bearing release cover) AND the rotor (or flywheel) itself for which you need a special bolt. The gear is screwed to the back of it by six big allen screws....they are mighty tight!! They need to be.
Whip off the old....slap on the new, stick it back together. Don't forget to put the oil back in...........
Any Q's?
Anonymous
25-08-05, 09:33 AM
:oops: :oops: :oops:
Missed your next postings....if the above is TOOOOO boring, I'll delete it.
Excellent... will check it out later!
Thank you!
Thanks for your help Boc, Dan and Viney - I spy a weekend of bike fiddling coming up!
oh - and billy for asking the question in the first place. :D
Sorry for suggesting the silly thing here, but I had a couple of times were the started motor would spin like a top but the engine wouldn't turn. It turned out to be a flat battery.
You could give the battery a quick charge up overnight before trying to strip things away from the engine. :)
I'll keep in mind Raf, thanks for the suggestion. It shouldn't take long to check the starter clutch though, so will check that first.
I didn't have the tools to get the little 8mm bolts off last night, to release the starter motor and see if it was the clutch.
Does anyone know if there will be any problem bump starting the bike and riding it back to Kent?
If it is clutch the case I have a couple of spare ones courtesy of 2 knackered cranks, if you pay the postage you can have one.
Well, I finally got my sockets on Helen's starter motor this evening :lol: :wink: :oops:
After some twisting, turning, and tugging, I managed to pull it off... the starter motor that is.
Yup, El Boc. speaks the truth... a little oil was present, but didn't leak due to the lean angle of the bike on the road. And yup... the cog inside span one way, and the other... freely as a bird in flight! :evil:
DavyF... many thanks for your kind offer. I'm sure we'd be keen to take you up on that, if something closer by doesn't come up first. We still need the tools to get this done, and I have very limited resources here in London.
I've emailed Daytona Motorcycles who're just over the road from me, explaining that the bike is in warranty, and that it's broken down on their back doorstep, and can they do anything to sort it quickly.
So lets see what happens... but if Jordan and Dan are able to sort tools/spares locally then we may be alright.
However, quite frankly Suzuki should foot the bill and the hassle for this one! :twisted:
Anonymous
30-08-05, 10:26 PM
Mmm...would have been pleased if the diagnosis had been wrong, and it was just a flat battery. But I knew it wouldn't be.....
So, good luck with a warranty claim; you might just get it through, and I hope so. If not, you could just about do it yourself in the car park or back yard, but you will need something like a bench at some point.
Good luck!
hope you get it fixed real soon before the ice and snow sets in. Look on the bright side, at least you don't own a t595!!! :P
Well Daytona's say they want to see service history before they'll investigate the warranty claim.
Called Suzuki, they say that they want a dealer to look at it mechanically to declare a manufacturing fault.
:evil:
Can these people not make decisions?
If a starter-motor clutch is broken, it could have only been broken by starting the engine - not exactly unreasonable use! :evil: The point of a warranty is to get this stuff fixed, not stand around arguing about it!
El Boc - do you know if this specific problem has been relayed to Suzuki GB?
Bill - What tools do you need? Im pretty sure i have most things require to take apart an engine (having done my sv one) PM if you want to borrow some.
(Saying that i might need them to get my flywheel off) but im sure we can sort something out.
Dan
Just a bit ****ed off at the attitude of Suzuki and Daytona's - which is basically f&*£ you, we're not going to help unless you make all the effort.
A warranty seems to be like an insurance policy - in that they'll wriggle and squirm their way out of any responsibility in any way they can.
Dan, basically I don't have the knowledge or experience to do this job myself, let alone the tools, oil or other equipment required. It's not just the puller, but the whole environment.
Basically, this isn't one of Daytona's own, so they're not interested; and Suzuki Customer Service aren't interested, because I'm a customer, and not a dealer.
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
Itching 2 go
31-08-05, 01:40 PM
billy, Suzuki customer services are there to complain to inorder to sort out your problems, IE if daytonas arn't prepaired to work on the bike due to no good reason then they should speak to daytona's.
That being said the service history of a bike can and sometimes will be questioned when waranty claims are to be made. Its a gamble that you took when you serviced it away froma a dealership. Is it cheaper to replace the dogy parts and service it yourself or is it cheaper to get suzuki to replace the dogy parts and get a dealer to service it? well depends on the mileage you cover, for example if you do 4000miles a month then do the service yourselves if you do 4000miles a year then get a dealer to service it. In reality I dont see how your service history will affect this as the starter clutch is a replaceable part not a serviceable one and never gets touched on a service.
You know some dealers will try to help while others will try to fob you off. Its not to do with you its to do with the payment Suzuki give the dealership to do waranty work. It is substantially less than what the dealership can charge a customer so naturally no dealer wants to fill workshop time with waranty work when they could fill it with a fully chargeable customer.
Ironically the majority of faulty bikes go wrong in the summer when the workshops are busiest, in the winter when a dealer will take on anything the bikes get tucked up out of use so dont have problems.
Up to you what you do but obviously its gonna mean a few Phone calls, and I can strongly recomend a few dealers NOT to use and likewise some which work to a very high standard. but then thats one for msn I feel
Anonymous
31-08-05, 10:04 PM
Well Daytona's say they want to see service history before they'll investigate the warranty claim.
El Boc - do you know if this specific problem has been relayed to Suzuki GB?
Hey Billy,
The truth is that I don't know. But, if I were Suzuki's Parts Manager, I would know the frequency with which I had to reorder that particular part relative to model sales. And I would know if it were "high" or "low" compared to a notional "mean". I saw five faulty ones in a York dealership and I was the sixth....in a short period. Others on this site have suffered the same problem. Draw your own conclusions.
My instincts are that this is not a manufacturing fault but a design-related fault, ie, it is marginal for strength in certain circumstances.*** If that IS the case, Suzuki will not admit liability for the obvious reason of not being able to reclaim any costs from their supplier. And at a claim cost of (say) about £175, they won't want to open any doors.....
In any event, this is not a problem where they can claim service negligence - it's a non-service item - and you might be able to get an independent consultant's report to back you up. What I would have done in my days in the Industry would be to authorise a dealer to strip/examine/report, and then made a goodwill "with no admission of liability" gesture. Will Suzuki? Dunno.
As far as the task itself is concerned, it's not difficult per se. You need 8mm sockets (long), snipe-nose pliers, a couple of spanners and some allen keys. Oh, and the wretched rotor-removal bolt at £29 (which I'll gladly lend you). The worst bits are stopping the engine turning whilst you undo the rotor nut, and holding the rotor whilst you undo the six allen screws that hold the damn clutch in place. With decent tools etc, an hour - say two to allow for plastering up the knuckles occasionally!
*** I've been trying to think of the failure mode on mine: in hindsight, I was pushing it up my back passage - I'll rephrase that! :lol: I was pushing the bike along the "ginnel" leading to my back yard. I was tired and decided to have some motor assistance; hit the starter with the bike in first gear (clutch in); as I did so, I let the bike roll back about six inches and released the clutch a bit to stop it. That broke the starter clutch. It shouldn't have done and that's why I think it's design-marginal.
But then, what do I know??!!! I'm only a sandwich these days...... :lol:
Well... things are looking hopefull. I think Helen may have batted her telephonic eyelashes in the direction of one of the Sturdey clan in Tonbridge, and they're going to do it.
I think they indicated that it was a warranty claim, as it was a non serviceable item.
Now, we've just got to get the bike started, and get it down there! :?
northwind
01-09-05, 06:00 PM
If a starter-motor clutch is broken, it could have only been broken by starting the engine - not exactly unreasonable use! :evil: The point of a warranty is to get this stuff fixed, not stand around arguing about it!
Mmm... Playing devil's advocate, it could also be caused by starting the bike in gear, or I suppose by hitting the starter with the engine running. Neither are especially likely, to do the front you'd need a broken (or bypassed) clutch cutout switch or some unlikely series of events... Just thought I'd point out it's not quite that simple.
It's strange, I don't ever recall hearing about this problem before- though John Tapley had a similiar problem with his starter gear I think? I've got absolutely no idea at all where my rotor puller is- Jonboy? Burner? But if El Boc's one's not available for any reason I'll try and find out.
Sid Squid
01-09-05, 06:23 PM
Generally speaking the problem is usually either broken or weak springs - easy to fix and costs next to nothing in parts - or at higher mileages the rollers get flatted and if that happens then the drive gear hub is usually worn too, that means replacement.
Very occasionally the drive gear breaks away from the hub, but if that happened then I'd be fairly sure that the resulting horrible noises would rather concern you and thus give it away completely.
Well Gents, I really don't know what's going on...
... but I do know that Helen's bike now starts :-s
After pushing it up and down the road for 20 minutes, with me slamming my substantial **** down onto the seat and releasing the clutch, the engine didn't really want to start.
So we pushed it over the road to another street, that eventually starts going down quite a steep hill. We tried a couple more times without success as we approached the hill... and I was then able to start rolling downhill and keep trying under my own steam. Eventually, after much grumbling at being left sitting around for a week... the bike started! :D \:D/
But as I got it to the bottom of the hill... it stopped again - idle speed too low. After cursing and swearing a bit, I tried the starter out of desperation.
VROOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMM! :riding: :D It started first time! :? Confused and delighted I rode it back up to Helen and told her what happened.
The bike now starts first time on the starter button... no random spinning, just chug-chug-vroom!
So, eminent professors of the forum... what's going on? and should we worry about it, or continue in blissful ignorance? :lol:
tres bizarre!!! I'd still take it to the dealers for a once over dude
Sid Squid
01-09-05, 08:07 PM
Stuck clutch rollers.
Kinda odd that all three stuck and at the same time, but if it's working then frankly I'd leave it alone.
vBulletin® , Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.