Braking or Blipping-which is right?

[Peter Henry]

There is a school of thought that suggests the following:

"Engine for go-Brakes for slow."

The theory of which says that basically decide on your braking point for a particular corner,use your brakes to reduce to the required entry speed whilst snicking down through the gearbox so that when you release the brakes you will not only be at your desired road speed but the engine speed will be at a suitable point to provide a good drive out of the turn.

This removes the possibly greater concentration and co-ordination required,(and more long winded procedure) of changing down using the blipping method.

To present an argument for the efficiency of the method mentioned, virtually all Moto GP and WSB machines utilise a slipper clutch which largely removes the affect of engine breaking and you can clearly hear the riders making multiple downshifts as they get on the brakes going in to corners.

Therefore apart from enjoying the exhaust sound and increased noise from the motor as you blip and downshift, is there any real point to using the blipping method? 8)

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Therefore apart from enjoying the exhaust sound and increased noise from the motor as you blip and downshift, is there any real point to using the blipping method? 8)

Er, yes. SVs don't have slipper clutches :?

[Drunk Mike]

Using the engine to slow can be beneficial when the road is slippery, since it won't usually upset the suspension as much.
As for going as fast as possible round a track, I have no doubt that being able to just change into the gear you want and power out when you need it is best.

[Peter Henry]

Jordan wrote:

Er, yes. SVs don't have slipper clutches

Is that the best you can add to this debate mate? I am very surprised at you! :shock:

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Jordan wrote:

Er, yes. SVs don't have slipper clutches

Is that the best you can add to this debate mate? I am very surprised at you! :shock:

:lol:

Well what more do you want! Unless having the back wheel sliding about all over the place, you gotta blip!

[Scoobs]

BLIP!

[Peter Henry]

I was not asking what preferred method any of us uses,but rather offering something for us to think and comment about.

Jordan....the simple fact that you do not blip...does not naturally lead to a back wheel slide...not by any stretch of the imagination. The choice therefore is not....do I want the back to play up here or not?

(I would suggest that it is unlikely that anyone blips for example when performing an emergency stop? A situation when any locked or sliding wheel would not be desired.)

I personally am really giving this whole issue some serious thought.(But yes it could be said that i need to get out more! :lol: )

[Drunk Mike]

Jordan wrote:

Er, yes. SVs don't have slipper clutches

Is that the best you can add to this debate mate? I am very surprised at you! :shock:

:lol:

Well what more do you want! Unless having the back wheel sliding about all over the place, you gotta blip!
Not if you have already slowed to an appropriate speed for the gear you change down to.

[Peter Henry]

Thank you Mike! :wink:

[fizzwheel]

Blip gives a smoother downchange, I'm not mechanical enough to be able to explain why, it just feels smoother to me, i am sure it have something to do with revs and predicted engine revs when you let the clutch out in the lower gear you have just selected, also I think it might have something to do with spining up the gearbox internals to the right speed.

I do it in the car as well, well more double de-clutch really same reason gives a smoother down change IMHO

Of course I could be talking complete B*ll*cks it wouldnt be the first time :oops:

[Biker Biggles]

Vote Blip-----You know it makes sense. :lol:
If you don't blip and don't have a slipper clutch how do you re-engage the clutch as you enter the bend?You can't enter a bend with the clutch in as it upsets the handling and makes you run wide.Try it,you will not hold a line like that.If you re-engage without raising engine revs you will lose the back end so you need to blip or be in too high a gear for driving out.You might get away with it on an IL4 but not on a V twin.

[Anonymous]

Try this for fit:

Not only do race engines have HUGE engine braking, the race-bike's forks are set up very stiff because tracks are smooth and flat. Ride a race bike on the roads and you get what Percy Tait described as a "better point-to-point than on my 'orse."

Conversely, a road bike has fairly soft suspension to cope with (relatively) bumpy road surfaces - and that means travel, - particularly at the front.

The heavier you brake, the more the forks dive and the more the steering geometry alters (unless its a Beemer) - and jamming brakes on and off is a good way to get pogoing, altering both front and rear grip. If you go into bends on engine braking, the attitude of the bike remains more level and more controlled. You are less likely to unload the rear, it'll stay on line better AND you'll get power down better.

If you don't believe this, follow a cop on a bike (including Guardia Civil) and see how often his/her brake lights come on.......they don't very often - and they're always bloomin' quick (and safe).

(All of which is IMHO, E&OE, SAE, CDM, RSVP)

[Drunk Mike]

'points out that El Boc just explained the point that he'd made earlier'

[Peter Henry]

Sir John....Points too well made and more deserving than a retort from myself...but here goes. :wink:
I concurr entirely re the race engines having massive braking potential...but this is largely not used due to the use of mentioned slipper clutches..thus the riders main priority there is to scrub off speed before entry and ensure maximum shove coming out of the bends is on tap. When was the last time you heard any of those boys blip during a slow down manouevre?

Totally agree about the Police chappies, however let's not forget they tend to be on rather large machines packing lots of engine braking and torque.Roll on and roll off for them is I suggest much easier than it would be for perhaps a rider of an SV? (I must add that I do not recall ever hearing any of those boys blipping when say leading up to a complete stop?)

I agree also that "jamming on and off of brakes" is rather unsettling for the chassis and suspension. But I am sure you will agree that braking should be done with a progressive squeeze rather than a hamfisted grab anyway? Thus allowing a more sympathetic sequence of events to take place? 8)

Biker Biggles...I think you misunderstand what I was saying initially. You will be changing down and easing the clutch back out under braking but without the blip.Therefore just before you drop in to the turn,you are off the brakes and putting a touch of drive back on in the gear you have changed down to. There would be no freewheeling or other odd things going on here.

[The Basket]

Engine braking every time. Roll on and roll off. If you have to brake into a corner, then you could end up in trouble, espesh in this weather. I find the SV is quite engine braky so I have no complaints.

It's the IAM way :wink: :lol:

[Anonymous]

Si Senor....I probably agree with all that except perhaps in one little area: if you are only going to smoooooth the brakes on, you can probably get nearly the same effect (on a twin anyway) from engine braking...and it stays flatter. The blipping is just to match revs and road speed for better control of that engine braking ( :?: mebbe?).

Anyway, it sounds better and you get more popping from the pipes.....btw, is any of this connected with a failure to fit the Termis to the Duke?

[Anonymous]

It's the IAM way :wink: :lol:

Pete! I take it all back then......I'm gonna do it YOUR way....I never wanted to be a Great I Am.....

[The Basket]

It's the IAM way :wink: :lol:

Pete! I take it all back then......I'm gonna do it YOUR way....I never wanted to be a Great I Am.....

:takeabow:

[Peter Henry]

The Basket...the method mentioned in no way suggests the use of brakes whilst cornering. Just like with blipping...all slow down activity should be completed before leaning her over.

Not ignoring road conditions but in some situations some braking even when leaning over can be done but this is not to be encouraged to anyone other than a very experienced rider.

As a side issue...A guy I know who rides an R1 came on our ride out at the weekend.He has done a lot of track instruction and teaching. He is one fast boy on a bike. I was interested to hear him say that he is even on the front brake in most bends all the way to the apex! :shock:
I have to say though his style of riding is far more suited to track than public roads!

Not to be reccomended though guys!

Sir John of bocadiville,

No those Termi's are gonna be on her soon.Just got to factor in the 10k service and new tyres as well in the total outlay! I will still get lovely rumble and burbles from the zorsts if I am using the method mentioned here.

BTW...I am being Devil's advocate here...my method has actually always been the blip. But makes one wonder. :-k

[The Basket]

Your R1 riding buddy sounds like a loon :D It's a shame we live in a country that deters loons.
When I rode the SV in Spain, I could go, ride and generally make an idiot of myself without having to look in my mirrors for the blue lights. I've never gone faster on me black jet. :D

I think the blipping method is more your RGV250 two stroke, keep it in the powerband type thing. Not really relevant on a torquey 4 stroke V-twin.

[svrash]

I would rather use engine braking and not risk the front end going out from under me or the back locking up :wink:

[Peter Henry]

svrash wrote:

I would rather use engine braking and not risk the front end going out from under me or the back locking up

But why is it that you feel the only way to avoid the situations you mention can only be done by using engine braking and therefore "blipping." You infer that as night follows day...without blipping these scarey moments will definitely happen? :shock:

Granted heavy application of brakes in poor road conditions or when actually cornering could lead to problems. But as stated earlier...the braking is done before entering any turn. That means the bike is fully upright,(in most cases) :wink:

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Jordan wrote:

Er, yes. SVs don't have slipper clutches

Is that the best you can add to this debate mate? I am very surprised at you! :shock:

:lol:

Well what more do you want! Unless having the back wheel sliding about all over the place, you gotta blip!
Not if you have already slowed to an appropriate speed for the gear you change down to.

Wrong. If you can change down a gear without blipping and not get the back wheel sliding, the revs would have to be sufficiently low. This would mean you'd still be in far too high a gear, so what would be the point?

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I think the blipping method is more your RGV250 two stroke, keep it in the powerband type thing. Not really relevant on a torquey 4 stroke V-twin.

I've never ridden a 2stroke, but I understand they have bugger all engine braking, so you wouldn't need to blip 8)

[mattSV]

Flamin squirrel wrote:-

Er, yes. SVs don't have slipper clutches

SV1000s do :wink:

Peter Henry wrote:-

virtually all Moto GP and WSB machines utilise a slipper clutch which largely removes the affect of engine breaking

Hmmm, not sure about that - I thought that they CONTROL engine braking, rather than remove it.

Whilst blipping can seem more complicated at first than just slamming on the anchors, after a while it does become very natural and I think it makes for smoother riding in the road.

[Peter Henry]

Flamin_Squirrel wrote:
Wrong. If you can change down a gear without blipping and not get the back wheel sliding, the revs would have to be sufficiently low.

It is as if you imagine that this method simply involves the knocking down of gears and the dumping of the clutch? This is not at all what is suggested.Perhaps it is the fact that this is a method that many of us are just not familiar with?

There should be no sliding of the rear wheel as speed is being removed by the brakes so that when the clutch is released after each gear change the engine does add to the braking overall but not in a destabilising manner.

mattSV wrote:

Hmmm, not sure about that - I thought that they CONTROL engine braking, rather than remove it.

Indeed you are correct Matt,they avoid the chances of the rear wheel sliding by mismatched engine speed/road speed. The drive is not reintroduced to the rear wheel until the situation is back to "engine driving the wheel" as opposed to the reverse of this.

It can be argued that a slipper clutch covers up for bad technique from riders as well as the benefit of being able to do multiple down shifts. 8)

[Drunk Mike]

That explains why the SV1000 I rode felt a bit odd when changing down gears sharply.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Flamin_Squirrel wrote:
Wrong. If you can change down a gear without blipping and not get the back wheel sliding, the revs would have to be sufficiently low.

It is as if you imagine that this method simply involves the knocking down of gears and the dumping of the clutch? This is not at all what is suggested.

True, but if you're riding quickly, feeding out the clutch really isn't an option imo.

[Peter Henry]

Flamin_Squirrel wrote:

True, but if you're riding quickly, feeding out the clutch really isn't an option imo.

Got to disagree with you there matey.There are of course degrees of feeding in the clutch but this is the only real way to do it at any time. In truth this method would posibly have you down through the box much quicker than blipping.It also involves less input from the rider.

As mentioned before this method is more likely to be used in an emergency stop situation so where is the built in delay there? :wink:

[jonboy]

Flamin squirrel wrote:-

Er, yes. SVs don't have slipper clutches

SV1000s do :wink:

No they don't.


.

[fizzwheel]

I think the blipping method is more your RGV250 two stroke, keep it in the powerband type thing. Not really relevant on a torquey 4 stroke V-twin.

I've never ridden a 2stroke, but I understand they have bugger all engine braking, so you wouldn't need to blip 8)

I have you dont need to blip but again, its smoother on the down change if you do IMHO

To me it just feels right to blip on the down change no matter what I am riding.

[Jase22]

With blipping you can just drop the clutch out after you've blipped since as you get the engine speed equal to the drive speed, hence quicker than slipping the clutch when you gear down in my experience anyway.

It's more of a habit thing than an excess of rider effort I find.

Spose what you say on the emergency stop scenario is correct, but you'll still need to do some element of clutch slipping if you want to change down through a number of gears at once cos the gearbox gets 'stuck', which arguably will slow you down at best and you could still be stuck out of gear when you're entering a corner!!

As someone said earlier, the SV doesn't have a slipper clutch either. So you're pretty much left with little option other than to blip!! :lol:

[thor]

Right, coming from a guy who hasn't learned to blip, I'm getting confused as what people mean by it.

To remove any confusion about what to do in turns, imagine your slowing for a red light in say, fourth, and want to stop safely for the line in and be in first.

Here's what I do.

Brake using front and back brakes whilst dropping the engine revs gently, so that I get some engine braking, but not too much to lose grip. Then, when I want to change down, I pull the clutch in, change, and feed the clutch out. BECAUSE I can't get throttle control and brake the same time, I tend to feed the clutch out very slowly to avoid upsetting the bike.

What I would LIKE to do, is raise the revs to match speed/gear better without getting off the front brake, both to do the whole thing quicker, and be able to spin the engine a bit if I feel like shifting more than one gear down. I find that the SV gear box prefers this to just letting the engine idle and stamping on the lever repeatedly.

Needless to say I havn't mastered this yet. :oops: Am I reffering to blipping here? :?

[Flamin_Squirrel]

What I would LIKE to do, is raise the revs to match speed/gear better without getting off the front brake, both to do the whole thing quicker, and be able to spin the engine a bit if I feel like shifting more than one gear down. I find that the SV gear box prefers this to just letting the engine idle and stamping on the lever repeatedly.

Needless to say I havn't mastered this yet. :oops: Am I reffering to blipping here? :?

Yep!

It's not as hard as it sounds either. You don't have to specificaly match the revs to gear/speed etc, that would take too long to work out :lol:

You just need to roll the throttle on a little bit as you change down - that's it 8) That's why you can be on the brakes and roll on the throttle the same time, because the throttle doesn't have to move much.

[thor]

What I would LIKE to do, is raise the revs to match speed/gear better without getting off the front brake, both to do the whole thing quicker, and be able to spin the engine a bit if I feel like shifting more than one gear down. I find that the SV gear box prefers this to just letting the engine idle and stamping on the lever repeatedly.

Needless to say I havn't mastered this yet. :oops: Am I reffering to blipping here? :?

Yep!

It's not as hard as it sounds either. You don't have to specificaly match the revs to gear/speed etc, that would take too long to work out :lol:

You just need to roll the throttle on a little bit as you change down - that's it 8) That's why you can be on the brakes and roll on the throttle the same time, because the throttle doesn't have to move much.

That's exactly what I thought too (lol, seeing as it was who expained it to me 8)) Still haven't quite got the hang of it yet though. :(

Anyway, that just seems really obvious. Why would you not do that? You'll have complete control over the bike and are using the full braking power available (within the limits of grip of course).

[mattSV]

jonboy wrote

mattSV wrote:
Flamin squirrel wrote:-

Quote:
Er, yes. SVs don't have slipper clutches


SV1000s do


No they don't.


Okay smart **** :wink:

Suzuki call it a "back torque limiting clutch system", which is for all intents and purposes a slipper clutch, however I didn't want to confuse matters further by bringing the word 'torque' into the debate :lol:

[Steve W]

I'm a blipper... well, people have said worse about me :wink:

I learned to ride on a two stroke and was taught to blip. I found the engine breaking on the SV quite considerable and blipped lots - on the IL4 I now ride there is much less engine braking and without consciously changing what I do, I know I blip less... However, it does make for smoother riding..

[Steve W]

. I found the engine breaking on the SV quite considerable ..

:oops: Perhaps I should have said 'braking'! Didn't think much of the finish but the engine was great :)

[Warren]

all depends on how much speed i need to scrub off.

i use the blip for minor changes in speed, and the brakes for major adjustments to speed.

im a bit confused too,
the IAM way suggests you use the brakes,
but on my observed rides, im told to look ahead, and make any changes to speed according to the hazards ahead and leave plenty of time to make this change of speed - leaving me to use the engine.

on an observed ride i only really use the brakes to react to unancicipated hazards and bringing the bike to a complete stop from around 5mph.

if the car behind me is following me close, i use the blip but just trigger the brake light as to make him/her aware that i am slowing.

[The Basket]

when I had my GPz, I always had the habit of snapping down 2 gears quickly so I always had power when it was throttle time. Don't need to do this on the SV.

[Dirty Baz]

I'm confused!

If I was wanting to slow from say 4th to 2nd gear for a corner, I'd roll-off, clutch-in, blip/change to 3rd gear, clutch-out. At this point the rev's are higher hence more engine braking. I'd then clutch-in, blip/change to 2nd and clutch-out. I'd only ever use a finger on the front-brake while blipping if I really needed to.

Are we suggesting that if we brake more before a corner and change down when the rev's are lower, we don't need to blip? I can't make sense of that, if I change from 4th gear at 5k rev's, I want to snick 3rd with the rev's at 6k so I'm in the power so a nice big blip does the trick. Better that than wait for the rev's to fall to a reasonable enough level under braking to smooth the change and THEN have roll on the power from say 4k!?!

:?:

[RandyO]

the proble I have with blipping on a twin is that a blip tends to over rev and make the bike lurch as you let the clutch out

when downshifting, I crack the throttle slightly to open the throttle plates and reduce the engine braking, and I slip the clutch, it makes a nice smooth almost unnoticable downshift

No, I admit it's not the way you would do it on the track, you would loose time, but I ain't in no race on the street, my goal is to be as smooth as possible

brakes? I only use them to stop on the SV, engine braking is usually sufficient to adjust speed for anything I encounter on the street

[Flamin_Squirrel]

the proble I have with blipping on a twin is that a blip tends to over rev and make the bike lurch as you let the clutch out

You're doing it wrong then :lol:

[RandyO]

the proble I have with blipping on a twin is that a blip tends to over rev and make the bike lurch as you let the clutch out

You're doing it wrong then :lol:

I knew someone would say that, I just think my definition of a blip is different more than likely

[jonboy]

throttle plates

:?:


.

[Peter Henry]

Jonboy...it's an Americanism mate! :)

[Ceri JC]

It's the IAM way :wink: :lol:

I've noticed that IAM/Police roadcraft say you should do most of your braking through engine braking, whereas racers (minitwins riders excepted) seem to think it's pointless, wrecks your chain, etc.

Now, perhaps they're both right to some degree- IAM/Roadcraft = generally large, heavy bikes, more often twins than where race bikes are concerend, and occassionally even shaft drives. Racers = generally lightweight IL4s that have great brakes and minimal engine braking.

Perhaps it's the bike that should determine it?

If we're talking SVs, my opinion is that stamping 2 or maybe even 3 gears down the box, without blipping the throttle, on approach to the roundabout is likely to have you off, or at the very least cause a slight skid, resulting in the bike being unsettled for whatever hazard/bend you've slowed for.

[The Basket]

It's the IAM way :wink: :lol:

I've noticed that IAM/Police roadcraft say you should do most of your braking through engine braking, whereas racers (minitwins riders excepted) seem to think it's pointless, wrecks your chain, etc.


The idea is that use of brakes or clutching/gears means that the bike is out of balance and the rider is not in full control. This has made perfect sense in the weather we are having. Hard on the brakes...oops. :oops: Engine braking can slow the bike down without upsetting the balance, espesh if you remain in a lower gear.
Smooth and steady wins the race, I guess. :shock:

[Peter Henry]

Well chappies...as you know I still ride a bit off a Vee twin and tomorrow a.m I am out with a fastish group of Spanish pals for a hoon. I am going to test this method out and report back to you all. I must say that be it through lack of experience or misunderstanding, a surprisingly high number of you really see this as a sure fire way of having problems on your bikes?
I do not see that at all,in fact the theory makes a whole lot of sense to me.However in the interest of the forum I am going to step out of my own comfort zone and use the method mentioned when a fair amount of speed needs to be scrubbed off for any bend. :wink:

[Shooter]

If this debate is about "brakes" or "engine braking" for controlling deceleration I am in the "engine brakes" camp. I leave the brakes alone as much as possible and can ride 100 kms without touching them at all. I find that brakes are something I use in town and urban areas.

Engine braking is the same as the accelerator . Neither should be used as a "trigger" - more like opening and closing a tap. Wind on and wind off. Sometimes it feels like pulling a string through a hole and sometimes like pushing it back through the hole. ( anyone understand that ?)

Blipping - I am a dedicated and adept blipper but thats to do with gear changing and not speed control.

[Jelster]

As a side issue...A guy I know who rides an R1 came on our ride out at the weekend.He has done a lot of track instruction and teaching. He is one fast boy on a bike. I was interested to hear him say that he is even on the front brake in most bends all the way to the apex! :shock:


I regularly trail the front brake into bends (not in this weather though!). You can enter a bend and still scrub off a bit of speed by gentle use of the front stopping device, and keep the bike on line. I first noticed this on my GSXR and really got the hang of the technique in the Alps this year.

When I did the Bike Safe day with the Met boys my observer asked if I had a problem with my brake lights as they didn't come on very often. I informed him that all was fine, I tend to use the gear box to slow me down. His response was that "Clutches are more expensive than brake pads" to which I replied "Brakes are for stopping you, if I use the gearbox to slow me down I should be in the right gear if I need to get back on the gas".

He agreed but suggested my theories were better suited to track and more spirited riding, to which I winked and said, "Yeah, every day use" :)

Anyways, even with the IL4 I tend to do a lot of engine braking, but I think it's because most of my early biking experiences were on the SV and Falco, and it's now more a habit than anything else.

.

[Anonymous]

Well chappies...as you know I still ride a bit off a Vee twin

Err....does that mean you leave the rest behind? (Gearbox? Termis?) :lol: :lol:

[Peter Henry]

Sir John...You are to dry by far sir!

Ok road test experiment complete see what you think.

Although bright sunshine today there was a strong gusting wind and the air was bloody freezing. I learned today that the cafe´we go to is at 98o metres above sea level and it was not a day to sit outside!

I feel that the braking and snicking down technique is definitely to my mind best suited to the track and in conjunction with a slipper clutch. If a slipper clutch was fitted to my road bike I would not hesitate in using the technique on a regular basis. With a standard clutch though I found too much concentration was required to get the clutch release after changing down correct.

The blipping way is what I have always done since first getting on a bike in the bad old days and so a small part would be me trying to utilise a method that is totally alien to me. But all in all blip is good if the motor you have offers the kind of braking that a Vee Twin does.
It also has the added benefit of some lovely sounds from both motor and exhaust! :wink:

[Anonymous]

.......It also has the added benefit of some lovely sounds from both motor and exhaust! :wink:

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Why spend all that dosh and get no thrill? It may add a second per corner, but a NOISE is not just for Christmas (if you know what I mean).

[Peter Henry]

El Bocc...Totally agree with you mate. I entered the post to see what guys would say about it.It has been interesting with some very knowledgeable responses...but I have to say that there are quite a number of people who only appear to know what they have been taught...they have not investigated further the likely reactions etc. to other forms of riding.
Biking for me has never been about what it says in any "good book" but rather by using your senses and common sense. God help us if all bikers turn in to montonous robotic non-individuals!

As an aside a friend of the Spanish guys I ride with turned up last week with his work vehicle..A police bike! Not Guardia Civil but a Transalp Local Police type bike. Oscar was there again today but this time on his KTM Duke a la Cloggsy. This time he was really out to play! Foook me you should have seen him go on it! Hanging off all over the place and super rapid through the turns! :)

[The Basket]

I believe in stuff like the IAM. Take what you want and ignore what you don't. Most of my close shaves have been due more to gross stupidity than daft car drivers. Getting stupid mistakes out of your riding by instruction is far better than learning the hard way.

A motorcycle can be a dangerous machine and is only safe if you read the instructions. :wink:

[kjames]

good post and all very interesting

i've recently passed and only been riding my SV for two weeks now so do a bit of a mixed bag of:
1. blipping,
2.not blipping (but still using engine braking)
3.just good old fashioned brakes (in a straight line and then knock it a gear or two without any engine braking).

needless to a say what i've discovered through my trial and error is
1. blipping, works well, i need to rpactise it more
2. not blipping. i've had the back slidding all over the place today... all in the name of learning obviously and never intentionally. So i'll try and not do that again.
3. again worked fine. bike was probably a little more unsettled for the beginning of the corner. but given the speed i was going (slow) and the amount i currently lean the bike in it wasnt a problem

interesting my biggest 'waggle' of the back was -pulled away, knocked it in to second took it up 6k ish and then rolled off the throttle for another junction and hadnt even changed down a gear. the back went very lively.

so i now plan on perfecting the blipping technique and hopfeully fully stop using 'the not blipping and changing down a gear' technique before i end up on my ****. :D

k

[viner]

I personnally blip the throttle as I'm using the front brake...so I dont see the problem

[Peter Henry]

Viner...No-one indicated there was a problem. A theory was offered for people to give their opinion that's all. :?

BTW...Is The Cherry Tree pub still open in Runcorn?