View Full Version : Am I evil?
In light of a certain thread I thought I'd get a quick opinion poll from the members.
http://forums.sv650.org/viewtopic.php?t=30747
fizzwheel
01-12-05, 01:09 PM
Probably not :D :wink:
but if this or the other thread degenerates into a slanging match then I wont be very amused
You guys know the rules
No
But IMHO you were on the wrong side.
And this is not a clear cut issue. You were a SADF conscript, but you did have choices.
For the record I did not like the way SWAPO conducted themselves. The ANC made big mistakes too.
DanDare
01-12-05, 01:17 PM
Whether you were right on wrong is for none of us to decide. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Doesn't make it gospel so to speak.
You were there at the time, if it seemed the right thing to do then so be it.
Not all that up on SA history, you ask me some very bad things went on but have done for hundreds of years.
IMHO if you feel proud then who are we to argue. Chances are its because you were part of a team and your family being of military background were pleased that you joined.
As for the attrocities, I cannot comment as I don't know enough.
But what I do know is that someone in a higher position makes those choices making them more guilty than you.
It's not a matter of "sides". Without knowing what you personally done, I can't comment on whether you're "evil". I just think as you yourself said, war makes people do some appauling things (you may not have used those very words but correct me if I'm way off track).
Being involved in any way shape or form is not something to be proud of is what I'm saying. Innocent people do die in wars and I don't believe in a casual acceptance of that fact.
I'll also reiterate that irrespective of all that, it's not a personal attack or judgement. This is based on looking at the wider picture which I think I'm entitled to have an opinion on.
If it makes it any easier on you Maggie Thatcher herself once said that all British citizens fighting in the SADF were war criminals. I wasn't concered, I was only disobeying orders.
You should be proud, providing that you didn't break your own moral code.
There are men still around that were conscripts into the wermacht (sp?), fighting for the worst goverment in modern times, they are proud of the units they were in, and I believe rightfully so. No-one now says that all Germans over the age of say 70 are evil and they had a similar "choice".
Peter Henry
01-12-05, 01:32 PM
I say a rather meaningful aside there from His Fizzness as he dips his toe in to the pool of authority! :wink: That's it mate...you show them your not to be messed with! :)
Sid Squid
01-12-05, 01:34 PM
I think it must be accepted that in any conflict there will be wrong on all sides.
Just so long as you can have a clear conscience, knowing that how you conducted yourself was decent and proper, then no, you're not evil.
But as said above, it's not our place to know, it's not possible for anyone but you to truly decide whether that's the case.
Biker Biggles
01-12-05, 06:39 PM
South Africa was politically "backward" at the time you are talking about but ,in truth,only by a couple of decades.There are countless examples of nations including Britain indulging in imoral and unjust military activity so what's so special about vilifying South Africans who served in their own countries forces.Smacks of "holier than thou" to me.
More contraversial;I believe that young people need to do something in their late teens or early twenties that makes them grow up.Burner,I bet you grew up quick in Walvis bay.It don't have to be military service but something like that teaches you ten years worth in about six months.
tinpants
01-12-05, 07:03 PM
No
But IMHO you were on the wrong side.
And this is not a clear cut issue. You were a SADF conscript, but you did have choices.
For the record I did not like the way SWAPO conducted themselves. The ANC made big mistakes too.
I think I'm right in saying this, and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm not, but Robert Mugabe, Idi Amin, Nelson Mandela, Joshua Nkomo were
all terrorists. Plain and simple.
By the way, Burner, be proud of the things you achieved. Like staying alive. ZIPRA, ZANU, SWAPO and Frelimo committed more atrocities than any SADF patrol. HTH?
The Basket
01-12-05, 07:05 PM
Mmmm...what choices does a conscript have?
Jail or military service?
I say only you know what you did and what you saw.
Just don't ask for redemption from a motorcycle internet forum :lol:
Burner,
I dont think you need to redeem or explain yourself to anyone on this forum or anywhere for that matter. You did what you felt you had to at the time same as huge did. I may not agree with what the old govt. did or what they stood for but I do believe that the country, even though heavily sanctioned by the outside world at the time, did a shed load more than any govt in SA over the last ten years... Having spent a fair amount of time back there this year after being away for five years, I can honestly say that my dog would make a better leader! Many say that we are running away from the problems back in SA but I disagree. All I want is a better future for myself and my family and I believe that I can do that a lot better here than I ever could in SA.
*Rant ends here*
I used to have the whole national service thing on my CV. I thought it explained what I'd done for those 2 years and maybe that military service of any kind develops a bit of character that prospective employers would be looking for.
Not so, I was advised by an agency to drop it from my resume and only mention it if asked directly.
So I took it out and got a job within 2 weeks. Which makes me think that particular agency wasn't putting my CV forward. Or was I just paranoid?
Or was I just paranoid?
Maybe there's truth in the saying that too much sun and sand isn't good for you... :lol: :lol:
Mr Toad
01-12-05, 09:47 PM
Remember, "History is written by the victors" - Winston Churchill
I used to have the whole national service thing on my CV. I thought it explained what I'd done for those 2 years and maybe that military service of any kind develops a bit of character that prospective employers would be looking for.
Not so, I was advised by an agency to drop it from my resume and only mention it if asked directly.
So I took it out and got a job within 2 weeks. Which makes me think that particular agency wasn't putting my CV forward. Or was I just paranoid?
Hmm, I wonder if you had chosen the jail option would they say 'keep that off your CV, it looks bad'?
FWIW Burner, after reading some of the debate on this subject posted here, i still don't feel it's right to judge you from what little we know of the truth. Being involved and having an opinion is much harder than observing and having one.
Remember, "History is written by the victors" - Winston Churchill
I know, I visited the Johannesburg war Museum around 1999 and couldn't believe the stuff they had up. A whole wall about the End Conscription Campaign, a wing of the ANC and UDF. Almost nothing about the SWA and Angolan operations.
I might have flipped out a bit at some of the crappola I read on other exhibits, especially how they glamourised the exploits of the MK cadres.
I might even have been asked to leave before they called the cops.
They have a top condition ME-262 there. the only night fighter version left in existence.
http://www.militarymuseum.co.za/welcome.html
No decent pics on their shoddy website, I have found one tho.
http://usera.imagecave.com/burnerboy/mjet.jpg
hall13uk
01-12-05, 11:20 PM
I think it must be accepted that in any conflict there will be wrong on all sides.
Just so long as you can have a clear conscience, knowing that how you conducted yourself was decent and proper, then no, you're not evil.
But as said above, it's not our place to know, it's not possible for anyone but you to truly decide whether that's the case.
=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> :winner:
The Basket
01-12-05, 11:52 PM
http://usera.imagecave.com/burnerboy/mjet.jpg
I've said it before and I'll say it again...You can't beat a nice Me-262 :D
Two seater...radar equipped...30mm cannon...500+mph... :evil:
I'm not exactly sure what it doing here because the 262 never served with the SAAF...but hey ho... :D
To be honest, you seemed to have thrived and survived in a world that most people wouldn't last 5 minutes. Now, that is something to be proud of.
I don't know how the Me 262 got to Jo'burg, but once there it won't corrode. At that altitude there's very little moisture and precious little salt ;)
EDIT: I do know how the ME-262 ended up there.
http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/articles/wilde_sau/wilde_sau_1.asp
South African Airways had a Junkers Ju-52 that used to do air tours. We used to see it flying over our house when I was a kid.
The Basket
02-12-05, 11:26 AM
South African Airways had a Junkers Ju-52 that used to do air tours. We used to see it flying over our house when I was a kid.
Ohh...the Ju-52...very,very slow and very,very low. It's cruising speed is slower than a SV!!!There are some still flying in the UK.
Supervox
02-12-05, 08:26 PM
Having read this (as well as the other couple of posts) where this topic crops up, I would just like to say the following :-
The SADF was part of the legal defence system that every nation has the right to 'posess'. The 'rights' & 'wrongs' of the regime that controlled it should not be an issue. Do those of you who accuse Burner of being 'evil' also condemn all Iraqi's who served in the forces under Saddam Hussein ?
The ANC, PAC & SWAPO were illegal, paramilitary, terrorist organisations - just because the cause they were fighting for is considered just by many does not change this fact. Lets remember the old adage "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter'. In parts of N Ireland all British soldiers are considered 'evil' because they serve the 'corrupt & evil' British Government. So, would you also condemn them ?
Personally, I hope that should my country ever be threatened I would have the courage to serve / defend it - the forces is not my choice of career by the way.
Burner, please switch on your PM function...
Jelster
07-08-07, 02:47 PM
Burner, please switch on your PM function...
Maybe he doesn't come on here anymore ??
yeah, its only a 2 year old post
northwind
07-08-07, 05:01 PM
Yep, Burner stopped posting here and on Oldskoolsuzuki a loooong time ago. No idea why, I tried to find out at the time :(
And not just because he's got my rotor puller ;)
I thought he went back to South Africa
Do they have the internetz in Africa?
Biker Biggles
07-08-07, 06:42 PM
Of course they have tinternet in Africa or where would all the scammers work from?:confused:
:rolleyes: They might be from Nigeria, but they all live over here now scamming the dole.
RhythmJunkie
07-08-07, 07:55 PM
"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter'. In parts of N Ireland all British soldiers are considered 'evil' because they serve the 'corrupt & evil' British Government. So, would you also condemn them ?
Exactly! Governments are extremely good at brainwashing people into fighting for them in lots of different guises.
They present you with a problem, then frighten and confuse you so you don't know what to think.
Then they give you a reason carefully crafted so you easily understand it and which makes you very angry.
Then, last of all, they give you a sollution to the problem which usually includes lots of bombs & bullets & dying and stuff!
911 for instance.
Knock over the buildings = lots of confusion and disbelief.
Blame Bin Laden & Saddam gets everyones anger up.
Then take a huge dollop of tax payers money and go bomb them!
Do we ever learn? Nope! :-dd
fizzwheel
07-08-07, 08:07 PM
Dead thread, I dont want this dragging up again...
Razor you have PM.
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