View Full Version : The bright vest of visibility
localhost
16-12-05, 07:21 AM
After nicking a bright yellow vest from our marketing department the otherday, so i would be more visible going home in the dark (black bike, black helmet, black jacket and so on), i got asked by a co-worker why i had a construction vest on me.
I kindly explained to her that it was so i would be more visible.
She said she had never seen a biker wearing an vest like that, and i kindly told her that she didn't look har enough.
My question today is:
Do you wear the vest?
The reason i don't wear a vest is because i've always got a rucksack on my back, this cancels out the benefit of wearing one really, i believe they do a high vis rucksack cover which i must get round to finding.
dirtydog
16-12-05, 08:38 AM
i dont always wear hi vis stuff but normally wear it during the darker months etc i got one with sleves to add a bit more visibility
No, I've been meaning to get one though.
As for the rucksack thing, I've got a Jansport one that has lots of reflective bits on it.
Yep I wear one... this one in fact:
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/images/respro%20hi%20viz%20super%20waistcoat%20ind.jpg
and a white crash helmet.. and yet l still get carved up. Though I do wounder how bad it would be if I didn't wear it. Oh and I did have a laugh when I beeped some lass and she jumped out of her seat. That was funny... I chuckled all the way to work.
The Basket
16-12-05, 09:03 AM
Your Hi Viz still depends on the tintop seeing you and paying attention. I've heard of ambulances with sirens screaming and blues flashing having cars pull out on them.
You look like a copper though and this may get some notice.
I don't bother when riding the bike. If car drivers miss the lights and noise of the bike, what I'm wearing isn't going to make any difference.
Stormspiel
16-12-05, 09:12 AM
The reason i don't wear a vest is because i've always got a rucksack on my back, this cancels out the benefit of wearing one really, i believe they do a high vis rucksack cover which i must get round to finding.
Borrow or nick :roll: a vest from work, put holes in the front where it would normally overlap, put it on your bag so the back of the vest covers the front of the bag (if you know what i mean) lace it up with a shoestring...et voila...one free rucksack cover :lol: 8) ....you'll never get anything out of the bag till you take the vest off it thought :roll:
I don't bother when riding the bike. If car drivers miss the lights and noise of the bike, what I'm wearing isn't going to make any difference.
That's a good point, but to add to that I really feel that from a sub-conscious point of view the second someone puts a bright "safe" vest on they actually think they're safer and that cars have naturally seen them. Although this will understandably be denied, it just has to have an affect, and therefore (unusually controversial though it is :lol: ) my opinion is that they have the strong possibility of actually increasing danger.
.
Well I work on the fact that if they do hit me and I have all that gear on they might as well forget trying to deny it. Cause if they didn't see me then they wern't looking, Jax as has followed me in the car and with the jacket on she said you could see me from about a mile away. Even when I was just a dot, I was a very bright glowing dot.
After all it don't mater what you do, if they don't look they won't see you, this way I don't get missed on the casual glance.
I don't bother when riding the bike. If car drivers miss the lights and noise of the bike, what I'm wearing isn't going to make any difference.
That's a good point, but to add to that I really feel that from a sub-conscious point of view the second someone puts a bright "safe" vest on they actually think they're safer and that cars have naturally seen them. Although this will understandably be denied, it just has to have an affect, and therefore (unusually controversial though it is :lol: ) my opinion is that they have the strong possibility of actually increasing danger.
That's the Volvo syndrome isn't it :)
I wear a Sam Browne reflective belt, I don't feel any safer with it, but my wife less concerned about my safety, so I'll continue to ride with it.
You look like a copper though and this may get some notice.
I used to drive a white Vectra company car in my last job, I nearly always used wear a dark suit and dark tie.
Other road users would always get out of my way really quickly.
The question is do I really want to ride round on a white Honda Pan-European ? :wink:
The Basket
16-12-05, 09:46 AM
Well, if it makes you feel safer then this is no bad thing. But I doubt if it really, really makes you safer.
Why not put big flashing disco lights and a rather loud sound system on your bike...you will never crash then.
localhost
16-12-05, 09:47 AM
I don't know if it's just my imagination then, from reading the replies, but i got fed up riding home from work and allmost allways getting someone to pull out on me on my way home.
But after i started wearing the vest i don't seem to have the same issue.
I don't bother when riding the bike. If car drivers miss the lights and noise of the bike, what I'm wearing isn't going to make any difference.
That's a good point, but to add to that I really feel that from a sub-conscious point of view the second someone puts a bright "safe" vest on they actually think they're safer and that cars have naturally seen them. Although this will understandably be denied, it just has to have an affect, and therefore (unusually controversial though it is :lol: ) my opinion is that they have the strong possibility of actually increasing danger.
.
I've thought the same way. False sense of safety and taking more risks because the assumption is that the high vis jacket means the idiot behind the wheel has seen you.
I've been hit twice in broad daylight when I've been stationery with the brakes on. Having high vis on wouldn't make any difference.
Well, if it makes you feel safer then this is no bad thing.
Ah but my point is that this is a bad thing. The safer you feel, the less alert you're likely to be I suggest.
.
The Basket
16-12-05, 11:07 AM
Well, if it makes you feel safer then this is no bad thing.
Ah but my point is that this is a bad thing. The safer you feel, the less alert you're likely to be I suggest..
I sort of agree. Maybe it's like a lucky charm. But I suggest that feeling safe or feeling good is positive and therefore good. If you don't feel 'safe' or even the illusion of 'safe' the a rider should stick to Vectras.
Being alert won't always help you.
I never feel safer.. all those blind 4x4 drivers scare me..
Plus with 9 points I'm always on edge, you couldn't get more alert than me at the moment.. Only another year and half to go.
Scooby Drew
16-12-05, 12:28 PM
I'm with Kate et al- If they don't see the lights/hear the bike, they are not paying attention and a high vis jacket is not going to make any difference.
I agree with Jonboy that it could lull you into a false sene of security. As my DAS instructor said 'Treat all car drivers as if they are cognitively challenged/the hard of thinking' If wearing a high viz jacket makes you feel that they have seen you, you gonna be surprised in a bad way...
Drew
SVeeedy Gonzales
16-12-05, 12:35 PM
I don't wear a high vis vest. I'm sure it helps a little bit, but much less so than a white helmet (blind car drivers do a double take in case you're a copper) or a white bike with panniers (ditto) or a flashing blue light (don't try that one, you'll get a tug).
Sadly, the more you look like a bike copper, the more chance you've got of being seen, and that's the only reason most people notice the high vis vest (or white helmet, or white bike...) because they're in fear of a copper and always keeping an eye out for one.
Personally, I reckon a white helmet is probably the biggest aid to being seen - better than the high vis vest.
remember to clean it though as my white helmet gets rather grubby this time of year. Maybe I should get a poilce rep paint job for the bike???
wyrdness
16-12-05, 12:49 PM
I wear a Sam Browne reflective belt, I don't feel any safer with it, but my wife less concerned about my safety, so I'll continue to ride with it.
I had one of those when I started riding (about 10 years ago). I just found that it gave the taxi drivers something to aim at.
My Kriega rucksack (http://www.kriega.com/R35.html) has high-vis panels front and back. I don't know how well they work though.
Peter Henry
16-12-05, 03:05 PM
Sorry but for me Hi Viz vests are not only an abomination but serve no real purpose on a bike at all. If it could be proven that they are indeed a means of preventing acidents then believe me your Nanny Government would have the wearing of them Law by now.
If someone driving a car is not looking or paying attention you could dress up like Santa but your still gonna get hurt.
As an aisde over here it is now law for you to were a High Vis vest if you step out of a broken down car,passengers and all. Is this the case in the U.K? I am out of touch you see. 8)
I have a high vis T-shirt which lives on top of my cordura jacket.
Does it make a difference? Probably not. Even with a bright yellow bike, high vis top, light coloured helmet, loud can and headlights, I still get people trying to drive into me because they don't look. Ride like you're expecting it. More useful if you've had to stop at the side of the road at night though.
From the other point of view, when I'm in the car, high vis makes little difference since if they are behind you, there is little or no white light shining on them (similar problem if you are pulling out of side roads, no light shining on high vis = no visibility), and if they are in front, you should be able to see them anyway.
MT
I nearly always wear my hiViz jacket on the bike. The exception is when I'm riding in a group and the other rides are not wearing one. If I'm on my bright yellow bike with a high viz jacket, and the rider behind me is in black leathers, on a black bike, then people see me, but not the rider behind.
"oh look, the motorbike's gone past, I can pull out now"
The effect is much much worse, if the rider in black is between two hiviz bikes. So I leave the hiviz bits off in these cases, and now people can see the group.
I know some people are not going to see me regardless of what I do, but I will give them every opportunity
I now wear the high viz jacket when I'm walking my dog as I have to cross several roads. She'd have a hiviz jacket on if I could find that that fit.
Jelster
16-12-05, 03:45 PM
My Hi Vi is sitting on my heavy (and waterproof) winter jacket, but as it's not been raining that much I haven't been wearing it. I ride in a black lid too :roll:
What I now do whilst filtering in heavey traffic is run with main beam on. I know it's contencious, but I look at it from a very selfish point of view.... If they see me I'm more likely to be safe. And suprisingly I get very few complaints from cagers....
.
Chipstix
16-12-05, 04:08 PM
I haven't been riding long but do have a high vis vest. It doesn't automatically make me feel safer, I mostly reserve its use for night/low light/fog and motorway driving. It keeps the missus happy, and if it can be the difference between someone in a car quickly checking their blindspot when changing lanes on a motorway and seeing 'something' or not then its worth it.
The fact of the matter is, they cost virtually nothing (mine was £2.75) so cost isn't the inhibitor, but they simply don't look 'cool'. I have a lid (Arai Astro R: Schwantz), not plain white but with plenty of white on it. I'm also keen to use some finely cut strips of reflective self-adhesive 'police blue' 3M tape somewhere along the side of the bike. See www.bikeseen.co.uk. It is almost the same blue as my curvey when its not lit and then goes electric when light bounces of it, and its£3.50/meter.
Hi vis may not make a difference (especially from the front when there is a nice bright headlight) and I'm working on the best possible defence their is: experience. But that (of course) takes time and whilst I'm a newbie it could be useful under certain driving conditions....
C
I've got a hi-vis vest folded into the clear pocket of my backpack. I figured it would be near pointless wearing it properly with the back pack on.
The way I see it is it won't stop the ones who don't actually look.
The ones who DO look but don't see may have a slightly better chance of spotting the hi-vis and change their actions... it's a long shot, but it may work.
I still ride like no-one's seen me tho...
pictonabike
16-12-05, 05:33 PM
the morning of my test (1979) I went to the local halfords and bought a da-glo sash - I spent ages the night before cleaning the bike and polishing my boots untile you could almost see your face in them - the sash finished off the job
my test was a disaster (many stories that might be shared on other topics were gathered that day) HOWEVER the cleaning, scrubbing, polishing AND the da-glo sash had done their job of creating a suffieciently good impression that I passed anyway
job done, I went back to Halfords, made up some story about the sash and asked for my money back - one full refund later, that was me back into all black leather - 26 years on, no-one has run into me yet so I don't think I'm about to get back into hi-vis again
Quiff Wichard
16-12-05, 06:32 PM
superb thread- a good read..
I have one but dont wear it cos I ate all the pies this last month and it pops open now and flaps around like prince charles' ears on the big one (blackpool not camilla !!)
After reading this though I may meet halfway and buya functional white helmet for winter use.!! ....
my buffalo full outfit has all reflective silver strips on!-- how effective they are I know not- as I dont see meself.!
I do however have 2 in the boot of my car in case it breaks down in the dark and Kim has to push me !
jimmy4237
16-12-05, 10:24 PM
A firm I used to know (Heavy haulage) used to have an ex. police bike (Honda PanEuropean), and replaced the blue lights with orange lights for escorting abnormal loads through cities. Replace the POLICE logos for "ESCORT VEHICLE", and remove the siren. One unique bike for escorting large HGV's through cities, and cutting through gridlocked traffic....
I once got a shot of it (after escorting a 85 foot trailer through Manchester....), put on a Hi-Vis jacket and white helmet, and the number of people who thought it was a bike copper was unbelievable. I got round Manchester M-Way gridlock hell in record time by putting on the orange lights, and filtering like mad... it could be also be described as "splitting the red sea of brake lights". Naughty I know, but good fun.
The Anti-fun Nazi brigade called VOSA put the fun to an end though, and forced the firm to use large escort vans with massive flashing lights.. :evil: :evil: A VOSA official wrote to the firm stating "An escort motorcycle would cause too much traffic disruption :shock: , and confuse car drivers into thinking it was an officer of the law. Please refrain from using the motorcycle, and use vans in the name of public safety......" :lol:
Is this not a crazy example of the Nanny state or what???
I wear a full hi viz/reflective jacket at this time of year over the top of my winter gear, on the basis that if it does make just one more cage dirver notice me then it is a good thing - even if they are thinking look at that knob in the hi viz jacket.
I find that when driving a cage, I do tend to notice anyone wearing hi viz gear a lot easier than anyone who does not, however there are still a hell of a lot of drivers who do not seem to see me even with GT150 bulbs, hi viz, remus LOUD cans etc.
I also adopt Jelster's policy of using hi-beam when filtering on motorways/dual carriageways - when on single carriageways I tend to flash using the 'passing light' button to avoid blinding oncoming traffic.
Wearing hi-viz does not necessarily make me feel any safer - I still assume that I am invisible, and that everyone else on the road is out to kill me.
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/c385a7259e.jpg
this might help make you a bit more visible, may also make you a few extra penny's on the side ;)
Sid Squid
17-12-05, 05:23 PM
It's true that if someone's not looking at all they'll not see you whatever you wear, but that's hardly the point is it?
It's not the driver/whoever that doesn't look that matters, it's about being noticed by the person who did look but not properly, or didn't notice you when they did look.
That's where the issue of visibility is important.
I think it's a lengthy and unfair extrapolation to say that the issue of risk compensation extends to hi-vis clothing, why not argue that wearing leathers lulls riders into a false sense of security? Logic surely suggests it does - but could the effect really be calculated? And even if it could, would it possibly be a reasonable argument against their being worn?
Let's all ride in the buff, I know I'd be bloody careful. :lol:
northwind
17-12-05, 05:27 PM
The only time I'm really convinced it makes a big difference is in really bad visibility... Especially from behind. Sat at the lights or riding slowly on a dark road...
One thing, if you want to wear hi-viz, wear hi-viz... Don't just buy one of those useless yellow waistcoats from Oxfrod or Motrax. The Sam Brown belts you see in bike shops tend to be no better either. Marginally reflective is all you can call them. "Slight viz" maybe. Instead, go to a place that supplies real visibility gear for trades or emergency services, the difference is huge. To understand the difference, look at the striping on police or ambulance gear- it almost hurts te eyes, it's so visible.
One of the stronger arguments for the "anti" side is that if someone doesn't see your lights, they won't see your vest. That's often right I think... Until you crash or break down on a dark road. The second you come off the bike in dark gear you're just a shadow. This is one place where if can really be life or death.
Chipstix
17-12-05, 05:59 PM
I agree it comes down to personal choice, but when considering it totally pragmatically and logically there isn't really a good reason for not wearing a high vis vest.
Aside from the attitude of feeling safer and 'guaranteed to be spotted' (which is a bit weak and I think (hope!) most people wouldn't subscribe to this logic) potentially being more conspicuous can't have a negative effect, IMO. The only other factor is image...which is fair enough.
This is why, for me, it is the riding conditions that decide which way the balance swings. Height of summer, also in a group, non-motorway for me not required. Motorway, fog, twilight, for me, I think yes.
I'm planning some advanced training for next year, which will probably have a more tangible effect but in the inspired words of the philsopher 'Tesco' : "Every little helps.." :!:
Well I work on the fact that if they do hit me and I have all that gear on they might as well forget trying to deny it. Cause if they didn't see me then they wern't looking, Jax as has followed me in the car and with the jacket on she said you could see me from about a mile away. Even when I was just a dot, I was a very bright glowing dot.
After all it don't mater what you do, if they don't look they won't see you, this way I don't get missed on the casual glance.
I used to wear a full hi vis jacket. I was wearing this jacket, with headlights on, when a car (yes a Volvo) pulled out straight into my path. First thing he said............ "I didn't see you".
If they aint looking they wont see you, regardless of what you are wearing. I am also inclined to agree with jonboy. It can lead the rider into a false sense of security. I just ride with the thought firmly planted in my mind that I am invisable to ALL other road users and pedestrians.
According to the research shown in the link below, the best you can expect to get is up to a 37% reduction in injury.
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/328/7444/857
As already mentioned every bit helps.
I seem to remember years ago there was talk of making hi-vis compulsory along with leg protectors.
The Basket
17-12-05, 11:59 PM
According to the research shown in the link below, the best you can expect to get is up to a 37% reduction in injury.
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/328/7444/857
As already mentioned every bit helps.
I seem to remember years ago there was talk of making hi-vis compulsory along with leg protectors.
A 37% reduction in injury...how?...is the Hi-viz made from armour plate? I should coco.
hall13uk
18-12-05, 01:38 AM
The reason i don't wear a vest is because i've always got a rucksack on my back, this cancels out the benefit of wearing one really, i believe they do a high vis rucksack cover which i must get round to finding. Hein gericke do one :wink: it's there own brand rucksack
northwind
18-12-05, 02:56 PM
A 37% reduction in injury...how?...is the Hi-viz made from armour plate? I should coco.
I can only presume you're being deliberately obtuse there...
According to the research shown in the link below, the best you can expect to get is up to a 37% reduction in injury.
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/328/7444/857
That's quite an interesting article, fairly brief and concise (even if it has a lot of statistical jargon :shock: ).
Bottom line is that everything points towards having a better chance of being noticed in light colours than in dark ones, especially in low light levels (like winter!!). Not rocket science, but reassuring.
They were surprised that a light (white/yellow etc) helmet had a significantly greater effect than expected, considering the relatively small area. I suspect much of this is down to the height above the road, a bikers head is generally above typical car roof line. It certainly agrees with what I've though when riding in bike convoys/parades. You definitely see all the white/silver helmets standing out.
In winter I think we need all the help we can get, and I always wear hi-vis. It doesn't lull me into a false sense of security, though. Having said that, what I wear and when riding the Deauville, any similarity with a Plod bike is purely intentional! :wink:
Just goes to show that a lot of bike accidents are down to car drivers not noticing you. It's up to us to protect ourselves as much as we can (or wish to), we're the ones who get hurt, and our nearest and dearest are the ones who are bereaved. :(
http://forums.sv650.org/viewtopic.php?t=31189
According to the research shown in the link below, the best you can expect to get is up to a 37% reduction in injury.
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/328/7444/857
In winter I think we need all the help we can get, and I always wear hi-vis. It doesn't lull me into a false sense of security, though. Having said that, what I wear and when riding the Deauville, any similarity with a Plod bike is purely intentional! :wink:
In the 1980's I used to commute between Basingstoke and Reading and used to wear a white helmet and the extra wide sam brown belt the same as the police were using at the time. Looking like plod was also intentional, the idea was to get the cagers to do a double take and help reduce getting involved in a 'smidsy' or a 'looked but did not see'.
I can see why some would not want to wear any hi-vis, turning up at Box hill on a hyper sports machine wearing a blinding yellow suit would certainly be un-cool.
But I think most would agree if bike and rider were decked out in urban camouflage it would be asking for trouble.
Just goes to show that a lot of bike accidents are down to car drivers not noticing you. It's up to us to protect ourselves as much as we can (or wish to), we're the ones who get hurt, and our nearest and dearest are the ones who are bereaved. :(
http://forums.sv650.org/viewtopic.php?t=31189
Have an idea that about 60% of bike accidents are caused by car drivers, the MAIDS report will have the details.
creamerybutter
19-12-05, 08:56 AM
I don't currently wear one most of the time as I ride on well lit city roads nine times out of ten and I personally believe it doesn't make me any more visible than a yellow coat would have. I do however thing they are a good idea on unlit roads especially motorways as two little lines of red light may not be too visible on an unlit motorway.
alpinestars brought out a nice camo jacket/trousers and i thought ''oh theyre allright ,may get them',but then thought of the visibility ,camo on a bike !kinda daft you ask me ,the average rider is prob thinking about gtng seen ,not blending into the background, :wink:
vBulletin® , Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.